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Thread: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
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2017-03-07, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Did anybody else think that X-23 appears to be at least as formidable as Logan in this movie? Like, fight-choreography-wise? He tends to be a straightforward slugger when you get down to it, but she was dancing around and ducking behind cover and doing gymnastic foot-shivving moves and rapid punches and generally looking like she was both properly trained for this stuff and instinctively vicious. Like, uh... some kind of atavistic muskelid predator, I suppose.
It's a fine movie with a rather bittersweet ending, even if it's a bit of a downer for the original crew.
SpoilerCharles has a psychic seizure that wipes out half his adopted children? That's pretty dark.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-03-07, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Yup, Laura was probably more threatening than Logan. Smaller, harder to hit, faster, more agile, just as feral and probably more willful. Yeah, she's got less mass and probably less strength right now, but given she has adamantium claws, she doesn't need that much. Not to mention Logan has seen better days.
One of my favorite beats from the movie was this, when Laura comes out, slowly starts walking towards the backing up goons, and you can see Donald Pierce going "No... no!" and starting to panic.
Also,
Spoiler
Xavier was musing that perhaps the reason why Laura has foot claws is because she's a female version of Logan's genetic material, and the females of <something> use their hind-legs defensively. I missed what animal he was referencing, anyone remember this?
And yes, Xavier hinted at being the reason the X-Men are gone, with Rice and his project to put mutant gene inhibitors in artificial sweeteners world-wide taking care of yet to be born mutants and Caliban being used to hunt down existing ones. Pretty dark. Also, so glad they didn't do what they were originally planning, which was opening the movie with a flashback to Wolverine walking in on the Westchester incident. It becomes so much more heart-wrenching for Xavier, in his one final night of normalcy and peace, to admit that he thinks he remembers the horrible thing he might have done. It was hinted at before, but he confirms it right at the height of an amazingly emotional Sir Patrick moment. Here's a case where telling is much better than showing.Last edited by DuReign; 2017-03-07 at 07:56 PM.
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2017-03-07, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
I guess what I find confusing about this is why is gore bad, but violence itself fine. Even apart from the appalling treatment of X23, the movie shows a few dozen people getting brutally killed, how does having them fall over bloodlessly make it better for kids?
I'll end that rant before I go too far off topic.
I got the impression that Logan had gotten slow as he aged. Everything he does hurts, and the pain doesn't go away like it used to. Watching him, at the start of the film, pull out that one claw to full extension... ouch, Hugh Jackman really made me feel that one. X-23 provided the contrast to that: fast, agile, strong, and she doesn't care about the pain.
Spoiler: Question answerLions. Whether this was even accurate, I dunno. Xavier might just have been a crazy old man :(Last edited by Excession; 2017-03-07 at 08:29 PM.
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2017-03-08, 01:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Disclaimer : I'm not American and I might be fuzzy on what qualifies as an R rating.
That said, my argument is not about what is better for children. It is about (how much) the movie is improved by showing a person with half a head. (Also, some grown up people don't like or can't stand this kind of images. )
Having people fall over (more or less) bloodless certainly is less realistic but realism in movies is always an issue anyway. A dead person is a dead person, they don't need to be cut in half to prove that. And while some minor R rated images from the X program might have enhanced the impact the story itself was gruesome enough and if anything more so than the blood imagery.
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2017-03-08, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
That's because the US doesn't need them in the same way. Unlike Australia/New Zealand the ratings aren't really enforced by law. You can take your 10 year old to see an R rated movie if you want (the theater just won't let them in unaccompanied). There were a few traumatized kids leaving the theater at the end when I went.
Ratings are guidelines, left to the discretion of the individual. "PG-13" jst means "this is the vague age we think is appropriate for viewing this.
The only exceptions are NC-17 films (nobody under 18, no way) and X rated films (actual porn).
Originally Posted by Kato
But even just leaving in the profanity and violence, it goes a long way toward selling Logan as a beaten down man, and puts you closer to the grim reality that his life is a never-ending torrent of blood, ****, and tears. You cut away from it, hide it all from the audience, and it doesn't feel as "real".
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2017-03-08, 04:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Yeah, that's a particularly strange rating standard. Somehow the visual presence of nipples or body fluids is more significant than concrete kill counts.
I got the impression that Logan had gotten slow as he aged. Everything he does hurts, and the pain doesn't go away like it used to. Watching him, at the start of the film, pull out that one claw to full extension... ouch, Hugh Jackman really made me feel that one. X-23 provided the contrast to that: fast, agile, strong, and she doesn't care about the pain.
I'll say the 'road trip' scenes where Charles, Logan and Laura are play-acting as family are pretty charming as well.
SpoilerSomething that actually hit me later: If adamantium is genuinely unbreakable, wouldn't X-23's bones be sealed, making further growth impossible? Or is it ductile enough to 'stretch' over time? And wouldn't she be poisoned by the metal more rapidly than her forebear? This is a dark movie, kids.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-03-08, 05:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Spoiler: Lacuna's questionI believe from the comics that she only has the claws. The rest of her bones are unaltered. That seems to be what's shown in the movie.
This stuff has been in trailers, is it worth spoilering? The kid has claws.
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2017-03-08, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-08, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
I saw the movie d1 and I appreciated that they were willing to go brutal, gore and dark. It sometimes looked too much and since we're not used to that, looked parodic somehow, but it was nice. I hope they'll do that again.
Laura, Logan and Xavier are really good characters. Caliban was a little bit disappointing. Pierce, Rice and X-24 aren't good at all.
And unfortunately, the story itself isn't that great.
Some things that bugged me:
SpoilerLogan gets money by being a taxi service? What?
Gabriela went through many trouble to find Logan and then can't manage to get a few words with him. I don't know, a simple "she's your daughter" or "she's a mutant" could have get Logan's attention...
Every other child manages to reach the coordinates of the meeting point without having any adult with them. But Gabriela/Laura need Wolverine even if as he says himself "anyone could do the job". Maybe they need a father for Laura, but they don't need Logan's help.
For some reasons, Pierce is not here when the scene at the casino happens.
The moment with the nice family really reminds the scenes with the old couple in Origins. It was due to happen, really.
Caliban's betrayal. Seriously, the man is more clever than that.
X-24.
Laura starts speaking... Spanish and then English. As Logan asked, why didn't she say anything for 3000 miles? The other kids all speak English even among them.
Making fictive coordinates a real thing isn't bad. But it's a big risk of being discovered.
I thought the soldiers wanted to eliminate the young mutants, not capture them. They didn't even try to get Xavier's DNA (they had Caliban in their team for years but didn't raise another tracker guy?). Why are they trying to capture them? And these young mutants raised as weapons flee rather than using their powers?Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2017-03-08, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
I don't know. The scene from the commercial posted above where Laura comes out of the building and the bad guy starts saying "no, no, no" was made far more powerful in the movie when;
SpoilerShe casually tosses the head of the 250 pound muscle dude goon on the ground in front of them before popping her claws.
Also I'm not sure about movie Laura, but comic book Laura does only have adamantium claws and not an entire skeleton. That being said;
SpoilerShe was shown on an operating table and it looks to me like there was blood all the way up her legs, implying that they did infuse her skeleton with the metal.Last edited by Thialfi; 2017-03-08 at 10:33 AM.
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2017-03-08, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
The language was mostly PG-13, till the car broke down (then he swore like a storm). Remember it is the number of swears not the useage that make an R movie.
That is why G's can get away with 1 or 2 F bombs. ("My brother was turned into a pig" for example had 2 F bombs but was G, good movie involving a witch turning a boy into a pig)
I'd count the Gore as PG-13 personally. Nothing made me think "must be R", sure there was nudity scene with "guests" but it was a quick flash.
All, in all, I would say we could have a PG-13 just reduce swearing, remove one flash scene, and I think we could call it PG-13: keep the other things.
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2017-03-08, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Yes, it was more impactful, but the screeming and maybe a bit blood or so would have worked to bring the general idea across.
Again, I'm not saying the R rating doesn't do something to make it a bit better, but even without it would still have been good. Its impact isn't that large.
Also: While we don't have definite proof, I'd also say movie Laura is more enhanced than her comic version.
Really? I mean, I've seen worse but... (again, not sure on the actual ranking criteria) if this is PG-13 gore, what's R? Open heart surgery?
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2017-03-08, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
It's good to remember that the 'rating system' is both a legacy of the 50s and based almost entirely on subjective interpretation. The base rules are somewhat inane and logical with a certain bit of knowledge (much of the violence rules were written around war movies, which you want kids to see for proper indoctrination but you don't want any awkward questions, for instance). So ask yourself what someone from the Eisenhower Administration would think of something, and you know what the rating is.
The whole thing needs to be ripped down and rebuilt, but we likely need to destroy the MPAA and RIAA for restraint of trade first.
It's worse than that. The adamantium sheathes the bones, so Logan can't access his bone marrow. Which means no new blood to replace what he's losing. Well, the spleen will provide a little, but not enough for what he's losing. There was a What If style comic many years ago where someone re-wrote the bones to Logan being able to metalize them at will (and by reflex), much like Colossus did with his skin. Obviated a lot of medical problems.
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2017-03-08, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Wait.. So he can supposedly regrow from a single cell (according to some writers) or at least regrow limbs but he can't make some blood because he lacks bone marrow? That's like someone being able to recite the phone book but forgetting his own birth day. (mind you, I do the latter but I don't claim to be able to do the first)
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2017-03-08, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-08, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
I think the consistent comic book lore on the family of Wolverine is that the adamantium skeleton inhibits his regenerative powers. Deadpool and Laura are capable of regrowing lost limbs. Wolverine can't (he lost a hand in a fight with Cyclops in the Age of Apocalypse). Of course, an unbreakable skeleton would normally reduce the need for that sort of thing. I don't know much about his son, Daken.
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2017-03-08, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
I'm not hugely knowledgeable about the comics, so learning that Laura doesn't have an adamantium skeleton (just claws) in the comics is new to me. I'm fine with running with that in Logan too, since...
Spoiler
... the operation footage we see of Laura does not seem particularly invasive other than her limbs. The process Logan underwent involved that submersion tank and molten adamantium.
Especially since there are some grim implications for Laura if she DID have a full skeleton at this age. Yikes.
Also regarding the rating, yes, the MPAA rating system is wildly inconsistent and basically boils down to a group of people deciding, based on American values, what the rating should be. Given that Americans don't blink an eye to violence and gore, toning down those aspects in Logan probably won't even get the rating changed.
Spoiler
What happened with that family would definitely have to go, most of the shots of Logan's horrific wounds, that stuck claw scene (why doesn't Logan have pliers??? jeeez), that harpoon in Laura thing, ALL of the cursing - and the movie dies a little in my eyes if cranky dementia ridden Xavier can't say the F-word.
Could it be done, while altering stuff so that the main elements of Logan are still in place? Sure, probably. I'm glad they didn't, and chose not to, because if there are rated R comic book heroes that deserve not to be contained, Logan is definitely one of them.
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2017-03-08, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
A lot of this stuff IS addressed, but it's not lingered on.
Spoiler
Logan gets money being a limo driver. Good way to get some quick cash.
Pierce IS there at the casino. He's just running overwatch from the van, while his goons storm the hotel room.
Laura just didn't want to talk. Either as a result of trauma (it affects all people differently) or just to piss off Logan.
No, they said repeatedly they wanted to capture them. And yes, they DID get Xavier's DNA. They don't zoom in on his face or anything but they show a dirt covered corpse on a gurney and say "Get a sample from him. He has an immensely powerful brain."
Remember the young mutants don't necessarily WANT to be weapons. They were rebellious from the start. Also, all of them are still vulnerable to gunshots. Fleeing is the better choice for most of them since a lot of their powers are either very close range (ice breath girl) or take a while to activate (storm of pine needles girl).
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2017-03-08, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Spoiler
That actually reminds me of my one little nitpick - the kids accents. It makes sense Laura speaks Spanish - she was born and raised in a facility in Mexico, with predominantly Mexican caretakers. Besides, the actress is British-Spanish (so not quite a Mexican accent, but whatever), asking Dafne Keen to ALSO rock another accent in addition to all the stuff she nailed is, c'mon.
BUT the other kids? They have accents all over the place. If they were born and raised (as we were told) in that same Mexican facility, raised by the same Mexican caretakers (who are actually probably the only truly selfless, heroic people in the entire movie)... why the different accents? Again, its a nitpick, and easily explained away with something like - they were born and raised into the same program, maybe, but only recently put together into the same Mexican facility where Laura was born to facilitate the, ahem, "housekeeping."
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2017-03-08, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-08, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
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2017-03-08, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Spoiler: SpoilerYeah I thought it was Caliban too. Rice comments 'he was a tracker and had a high I.Q.'
That said I can absolutely see why they wouldn't want Xavier's DNA as making copies of a telepath as powerful as Xavier may be considered too dangerous even for a mad scientist like RiceLast edited by comicshorse; 2017-03-08 at 04:14 PM.
All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2017-03-08, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Spoiler
Pretty sure the charred corpse was Caliban's - POOR CALIBAN - and Rice said "powerful tracker, high IQ" or something to that effect. Xavier was buried ("at least its by water" omg here come the tears again man), I don't think they ever got hands on him long enough to get a DNA sample on screen.
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2017-03-08, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
A great movie about the most adorable serial killer in existence.
Also the best movie I've seen where a crippled, demented elder is murdered in their bed.
As far as the violence goes, I think the general brutality of it was suitable, but the amount was iffy. There's a huge number of goons in this movie who exist only to be chopped up. If they'd halved the amount, I feel it would've increased the impact.
For example:SpoilerThere's the part where the goons go in to fetch Laura from the shack. That part only really needed the big guy whose head Laura rips off. Then there's the big melee following where Laura and Logan butcher maybe dozen or so people. They could've halved the number, slowed the action down a bit to make it less hectic, and pay more attention to the pain and injuries of the soldiers. That'd have actually made the scene worse. They could've also allowed more of the soldiers to survive and then show how they're dealing with having been mutilated or cripples by our protagonists.Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2017-03-08 at 04:32 PM.
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2017-03-08, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Haha, Frozen Feet, so far you are the only one suggesting changes that might actually increase the rating from R to NC-17 . Showing visceral pain and suffering as a result of gory violence is one of those NC-17 things... the goriest, most disturbingly violent movie I've ever seen is STILL the Passion of the Christ.
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2017-03-08, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Even so, I still like Logan in the first episodes, and later on, there is a languid feeling, the plot is not as detailed as before - still in the direction of the first weak, strong and then counterattacking :(
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2017-03-09, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
SpoilerIt was Caliban's corpse. He says he's a strong tracker and has a normal than higher IQ. And you can visibly see that it is Caliban on the gurney (I just got back from watching it at the theater).
Regarding the rating/violence... we have like fifteen movies where Wolverine repeatedly slices people with no blood. This may be okay for some, but it isn't for others. Like me . I'm glad we finally get to see Wolverine cut loose (so to speak). Could it have been done differently as Frozen Feet suggests? Yeah, I think so. But we don't need another PG-13 Wolverine. Consider:
SpoilerWe've already seen Wolverine with a muted healing factor.
We've already seen Wolverine running through the woods killing armed soldiers.
We've already seen Wolverine chumming it up with a couple at their home before they're completely annihilated.
We've already seen Wolverine struggling to reach a powerful telepath that's out of control.
We've already seen Wolverine fighting another mutant with a healing factor and adamantine skeleton.
We've already seen Wolverine rescuing children from evil scientists that want to experiment on them.
We've already seen Xavier being medicated to suppress his powers.
There's probably more but you get the gist. A lot of stuff is recycled. Let us at least have some blood and gore, since there is literally no way for there not to be any if he is actually using his claws to kill people.Last edited by Dr.Samurai; 2017-03-09 at 12:27 AM.
Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
Sabian Skellegue, the Unyielding Wrath
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Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
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2017-03-09, 06:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
Oh yeah, another thing:
I felt the swearing was really lackluster. There's lots of it, but it's almost completely two words repeated over and over.SpoilerHilariously, the Finnish subtitles switched the shit-fucks for Hell-Satans, which actually felt more fitting of the characters, but served to underline how repetitive it was.
They ought to have hired my brother as expert counsel on how to swear properly. Especially for the car scene."It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2017-03-09, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
You know, I walked out of the theater feeling meh. I didn't know why until I read your post Dr. Samurai. Yeah, everything in Logan, we have seen before. Thanks for the eye opening. I still liked it though.
One thing that I hope get's addressed with any new Wolverine. I don't know why it bothers me. They don't make it so Wolverine has all of his powers. I mean the heightened senses. You know, his hearing, smelling, I assume sight? I was never sure on that one. Still, it's always bugged me about that. You were never suppose to get the drop on him because of those abilities.
I also felt like they shouldn't have put the two plots together. The Professor one, and the x-23 one. I feel like they had two different movies going on here. Or if they wanted to do it like this, they should have went with a Kill Bill kind of Chapter thing going on.
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2017-03-09, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Logan (2017 Marvel Movie)
I liked it as well, which is surprising because I just all around don't care for Fox's X-Men franchise in general and definitely didn't care for Origins: Wolverine or The Wolverine. But despite seeing a lot of stuff being rehashed, this movie was enjoyable.
One thing that I hope get's addressed with any new Wolverine. I don't know why it bothers me. They don't make it so Wolverine has all of his powers. I mean the heightened senses. You know, his hearing, smelling, I assume sight? I was never sure on that one. Still, it's always bugged me about that. You were never suppose to get the drop on him because of those abilities.
We do see it a bit in the movies. In X2, he hears the soldiers infiltrating the mansion, allowing him to outmaneuver the one heading for the kitchen. And does he sniff out Mystique at one point or another? Can't remember.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
Sabian Skellegue, the Unyielding Wrath
IC OOC
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Aelki Ruasha, Void Knight of the Star Ocean
IC OOC MAP
Chult Hex Crawl
Ondros, Mazewalker of Ubtao
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Retired Characters