Bard with pageant of the peacock bonus, what bonuses do I use for knowledge?

[Da Beast]

My character is an Azata blooded Aasimar bard using versatile performance to make sing checks in place of bluff checks and then the pageant of the peacock bardic masterpiece to make bluff checks in place of knowledge checks. I have +2 (racial) to perform checks, +4 (circumstance) to bluff when using pageant of the peacock, and currently +4 (untyped) to knowledge checks from bardic knowledge. I'm not sure how these bonuses stack when I'm using both abilities together, can anyone clarify this for me?

[Geddy2112]

From the versatile performance wording " He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, "

For example, if you had versatile perform-dance and had something that gave you +2 to acrobatics, it would not carry over to any checks you make using perform-dance.

Since you are using sing to bluff, you only get bonuses to perform:sing, not the +4 to bluff the pageant of the peacock gives, unless you use bluff itself. Likewise, you are using bluff as a knowledge check, you do not get the bonus from bardic knowledge here.

[Da Beast]

A bit of googling turned up this which says I get all of them. That's a little crazy but I'm not going to complain.

[Extra Anchovies]

Ooh, this is an interesting question.

A bard adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.

At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill.

By gracefully weaving your body through subtle forms and postures you can convince others of your breeding, eloquence, and refinement. For the duration of the effect, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks, and may attempt a Bluff check in place of an Intelligence check or Intelligence-based skill check.

So we have a bonus to Knowledge, optional bonus to Bluff, optional Bluff check in place of Intelligence-based check, and optional Perform bonus in place of Bluff bonus.

The Bluff check is being made in place of the Knowledge check, so your ranks, modifiers, and total bonus in Knowledge are discarded; Bardic Knowledge doesn't apply to the Bluff checks made via Pageant of the Peacock.

You can use your total Perform bonus in place of your total Bluff bonus, and the +4 circumstance bonus to Bluff is part of your total Bluff bonus, so the Bluff bonus from Pageant of the Peacock is discarded along with the rest of your total Bluff bonus when you decide to instead use your Perform bonus via Versatile Performance.

So your options are:
1. A Knowledge check (Int + Knowledge ranks + 3 if trained + 1/2 level).
2. A Bluff check (Cha + Bluff ranks + 3 if trained + 4).
3. A Bluff check using your total Perform bonus (Cha + Perform ranks + 3 if trained) in place of your total Bluff bonus.

Note that using Pageant of the Peacock replaces the original check with a Bluff check, you don't activate effects which trigger when you roll a Knowledge check (e.g. Mystery Initiate), and instead activate effects which trigger when you roll a Bluff check (e.g. the Daring Infiltrator's Authoritative Bluff reroll ability). However, when you use your Perform bonus in place of your Bluff bonus, you're still making a Bluff check (having only replaced the bonus), and thus activate when-you-roll-Bluff triggers but not when-you-roll-Perform triggers.

P.S. can anyone explain to me how this dance lets the bard use their ability to convincingly lie as a means of identifying monsters???

[Serafina]

It was probably meant as a way to convince people that you're more knowledgeable than you really are. You can pretend that you really know all about local nobility, or about the engineering of planar cathedrals, or stuff like that. Which is actually a pretty nice, but limited application.
Instead they forgot any clause of "you can only use this for purpose X" or "you can not actually gain useful knowledge from this" or anything like that.

Hence, it's now a very powerful Masterpiece, especially for Skalds and Bards who replace their Bardic Knowledge with something else.

Oh, and technically you can also use this for crafting. Crafting for 8 hours would cost you 48 rounds of performance, so that'd only be feasible at rather high levels - but of course you can just craft for a few hours per day during downtime, then spend the rest of the day on something else.

[Jack_Simth]

Note that using Pageant of the Peacock replaces the original check with a Bluff check, you don't activate effects which trigger when you roll a Knowledge check (e.g. Mystery Initiate), and instead activate effects which trigger when you roll a Bluff check (e.g. the Daring Infiltrator's Authoritative Bluff reroll ability). However, when you use your Perform bonus in place of your Bluff bonus, you're still making a Bluff check (having only replaced the bonus), and thus activate when-you-roll-Bluff triggers but not when-you-roll-Perform triggers.

P.S. can anyone explain to me how this dance lets the bard use their ability to convincingly lie as a means of identifying monsters???

"Unless otherwise stated, a masterpiece's effects are supernatural". It's magic, a variation on a spell. Would you worry about where the knowledge of building things was coming from when, as a caster with no ranks in any Craft skill, you cast Crafter's Fortune on someone, or - even better - when you pick a skill you don't have as an associated skill for a Scarlet and Blue Ioun Stone (those are great for implanting, by the way)?

[Extra Anchovies]

"Unless otherwise stated, a masterpiece's effects are supernatural". It's magic, a variation on a spell. Would you worry about [effects matching fluff]?

Right, yes, magic, a wizard did it, applied handwavium, et cetera. That's alright. What I don't like is when things don't do what they say they're supposed to do.

Your elegant movements cause you to seem to be more than you are... By gracefully weaving your body through subtle forms and postures you can convince others of your breeding, eloquence, and refinement.

I'm not a fan of an ability which says it makes you better at convincing people you're a twit, but also makes you better at recognizing beholders without giving any explanation. If Fireball also gave the caster +4 to Bluff checks for an hour, everyone would be wondering why the heck that is when the fluff says nothing about bluffing, and why it's not called Liar's Fireball instead.

At my table I'd replace the ability to use bluff for int-based checks with an ability to use Bluff checks to convince someone else that you're knowledgable on a certain topic. Maybe add on a way to get other people to tell you about a topic by pretending to already know about it, maybe by rolling bluff vs their knowledge check about the topic and getting the results of their knowledge check if you won the opposed check. Regardless of the mechanics, what I mean is something like this:

[Jack_Simth]

That's alright. What I don't like is when things don't do what they say they're supposed to do.

Oh. Yeah, that I can't help you with. The mechanics don't jive with the fluff. Absolutely.

[Vhaidara]

Oh, that's easy. You lie so effectively that the universe believes you and changes so that you're right.

Worth noting the Peacock also works for Craft checks. And, with a 2 level dip into Empiricist Investigator, Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and UMD (+Diplomacy to gather information)

[Der_DWSage]

At my table I'd replace the ability to use bluff for int-based checks with an ability to use Bluff checks to convince someone else that you're knowledgable on a certain topic. Maybe add on a way to get other people to tell you about a topic by pretending to already know about it, maybe by rolling bluff vs their knowledge check about the topic and getting the results of their knowledge check if you won the opposed check...

So...you'd replace Bluff (And a Masterpiece) with the ability to tell a very specific type of lie, and a very specific form of Gathering Information? You see the problem with that, right?

(Though I third the fact that the fluff just does not jive with the mechanics.)

[Extra Anchovies]

Oh, that's easy. You lie so effectively that the universe believes you and changes so that you're right.

...this is frustratingly difficult to contest

Worth noting the Peacock also works for Craft checks. And, with a 2 level dip into Empiricist Investigator, Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and UMD (+Diplomacy to gather information)

There's also traits which can let you use Int for Intimidate checks, UMD checks, and some Bluff and Diplomacy checks.

So...you'd replace Bluff (And a Masterpiece) with the ability to tell a very specific type of lie, and a very specific form of Gathering Information? You see the problem with that, right?

Not quite what I meant; rather, the ability I described would be added to Pageant of the Peacock in place of the ability to substitute Bluff for Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based checks. So PotP still provides +4 to bluff and disguise, and non-Peacock bluff works normally. Stock bluff could allow you to pass as knowledgable on a topic, but Peacock bluff would allow you to extract specific information from someone by beating their Knowledge with your Bluff.

[Da Beast]

Thanks for the input everyone, but the link in my last post if James Jacobs, the creative director of the Pathfinder team, clarifying how things should work so I'm going to consider this settled.

I agree that the masterpiece is ridiculous and probably overpowered (I now have bluff, sense motive, and every intelligence based skill covered by perform sing for one skill point per level) but the game in question is a stupid op gestalt where we're just tearing through Rise of the Runelords as fast as possible so I don't think the DM will mind things being overpowered.

[Extra Anchovies]

Thanks for the input everyone, but the link in my last post if James Jacobs, the creative director of the Pathfinder team, clarifying how things should work so I'm going to consider this settled.

The authors of the Dragonslayer's Handbook player companion are Jerome Virnich, Marie Small, and Shaun Hocking, so I'd say they're the only ones with any sort of authority on the matter outside of official FAQ or errata. The devs are not always right about the published rules (Skip Williams's Sage Advice, anyone?), and the post you linked is discussing only Versatile Performance in general rather than Peacock's Pageant in particular because the post was written almost seven years prior to the writing and publication of Peacock's Pageant.

There are three ways I know of in Pathfinder to use a skill in place of another. They are:
1. You may attempt an X check in place of a Y check. If you're using Bluff in place of Knowledge, none of your Knowledge modifiers apply and all of your Bluff modifiers apply. Jacobs describes Versatile Performance in this manner here.

2. You may use your ranks in X in place of your ranks in Y. If you're using Bluff ranks in place of Knowledge ranks, you start with your ranks in Bluff and add any non-skill-rank modifiers to Knowledge. You're not making a Bluff check, so you don't get any of your modifiers to Bluff except for effects which increase your ranks or effective ranks in Bluff. James Jacobs describes Versatile Performance in this manner here.

3. You may use your total X bonus in place of your total Y bonus. You're still making a Y check, but any and all numbers which would normally apply to Y are ignored entirely and replaced with your total bonus to X checks. Anything which says it adds to bluff checks is part of your total bonus to bluff checks, and anything which says it adds to perform checks is part of your total bonus to perform checks. Substituting your total perform bonus for your total bluff bonus means that you apply Perform-boosting effects but not Bluff-boosting effects.The Core Rulebook describes Versatile Performance in this manner (link).

That being said, a DM's rules take precedence over the published rules, and that's how the game should be. The stuff in the books is there so people don't have to go to the effort of making up their own mechanics when they don't want to