Oh UMD, why must you break my heart?

[paranoidbox]

So this is one of those Use Magic Device threads that tends to crop up once every few time units of your choice. However, I've done a lot of googling and searching on forums, and I'm hoping to glean a modest amount of wisdom from the playground on UMD-related things AND, more importantly, to find out a few things that I might be able to use for one of my characters.

So here goes, my main question: Besides using scrolls, wands, and staffs with spells that are not on your spell list... is UMD really good for anything? I mean, don't get me wrong, using any spell from any spell list as long as it can be pulled out of a spell trigger or spell completion item? That's great stuff. But... is there anything else viable UMD can do?

It seems there's so much promise, because you can emulate class features, races, and alignments that would otherwise prohibit you from using a magic item (because you're a CN human rogue and not a LG dwarven cleric, for example), but it doesn't seem like that goes anywhere. Or am I wrong?

The only undoubtable instance that I have found of an item that can be used through UMD's "emulate a class feature" is the Strand of Prayer Beads. And that's it, I think. Are there others like it in the DMG or the MIC or any of the not-too-obscure books?

I mean, yes, the Holy Avenger gets trotted out as a good* item to use with UMD, but someone somewhere pointed out that "being a paladin" is not a class feature. Now, I'm not that steady on the RAW of it all, but that seemed to me to be a fair point. The Sparring Dummy of the Master has a similar problem, you're just supposed to be a monk to be able to use it.

Second question, what about those items that require the activation of a class ability? For example, a Divine Wrath weapon gives its benefit when the wielder expends a use of Turn Undead, a Shield of Mercy needs a Smite use to activate, etc... Can someone with high enough UMD activate them? If so, how many times per day?

Last question, what about items that give you more uses of a certain class ability? For example, a Nightstick gives the user 4 additional Turn Undead attempts, a Druid's Vestment grants 1 more Wild Shape, etc... Does a UMD-user get these extra uses? Does he have 0 uses + whatever the item gives him OR does he have an original null uses in which case you can't add anything to it?

Thank you in advance for any insight you can provide.

[Venger]

So this is one of those Use Magic Device threads that tends to crop up once every few time units of your choice. However, I've done a lot of googling and searching on forums, and I'm hoping to glean a modest amount of wisdom from the playground on UMD-related things AND, more importantly, to find out a few things that I might be able to use for one of my characters.

So here goes, my main question: Besides using scrolls, wands, and staffs with spells that are not on your spell list... is UMD really good for anything? I mean, don't get me wrong, using any spell from any spell list as long as it can be pulled out of a spell trigger or spell completion item? That's great stuff. But... is there anything else viable UMD can do?

It seems there's so much promise, because you can emulate class features, races, and alignments that would otherwise prohibit you from using a magic item (because you're a CN human rogue and not a LG dwarven cleric, for example), but it doesn't seem like that goes anywhere. Or am I wrong?

The only undoubtable instance that I have found of an item that can be used through UMD's "emulate a class feature" is the Strand of Prayer Beads. And that's it, I think. Are there others like it in the DMG or the MIC or any of the not-too-obscure books?

I mean, yes, the Holy Avenger gets trotted out as a good* item to use with UMD, but someone somewhere pointed out that "being a paladin" is not a class feature. Now, I'm not that steady on the RAW of it all, but that seemed to me to be a fair point. The Sparring Dummy of the Master has a similar problem, you're just supposed to be a monk to be able to use it.

Second question, what about those items that require the activation of a class ability? For example, a Divine Wrath weapon gives its benefit when the wielder expends a use of Turn Undead, a Shield of Mercy needs a Smite use to activate, etc... Can someone with high enough UMD activate them? If so, how many times per day?

Last question, what about items that give you more uses of a certain class ability? For example, a Nightstick gives the user 4 additional Turn Undead attempts, a Druid's Vestment grants 1 more Wild Shape, etc... Does a UMD-user get these extra uses? Does he have 0 uses + whatever the item gives him OR does he have an original null uses in which case you can't add anything to it?

Thank you in advance for any insight you can provide.

while hitting 20 to use spells from off your list is certainly handy, one of UMD's most common and useful abilities is using spells from your own list with no roll or significant investment in the skill required at all. it's most popular on sorcerers, allowing them to cover gaps since their spell lists are more alike than they are different.

there aren't that many printed magic items that require you to be a specific race, class, etc, but the ones there are are pretty amusing. hitting 35 and using the horseshoes of flame, for example, gives your character a huge numerical boost.

holy avenger sucks. sparring dummy of the master is a perfect example of when hitting 35 is worth it.

if you don't have a class feature, UMD doesn't grant it to you.

[ExLibrisMortis]

1) There's the Master's Voice feat, which is a no-save (nonmagical) way of controlling unintelligent undead and constructs.
2) Yes, but only if you have Turn Undead or Smite. For example, an item which requires you to be a paladin and spend a turning use could be used by a cleric with UMD.
3) No. Having no uses is not the same as having 0 uses. However, there is at least one ability which changes this; one of the draconic sovereign archetypes grants the ability to take Extra Turning, despite not granting any turning uses.

[Segev]

Relics require an alignment and either a feat or a spell. You can at least get the non-Relic, alignment-requiring benefit, though. Sadly, you can't emulate the ability to cast a spell and "cast" it to get the benefits, either. And you can't emulate feats. Enveloping Pits are fun even with just matching the alignment, though; they're bigger, cheaper portable holes that require you to be NE.

It's actually a little iffy whether "being a paladin" doesn't count as a class feature. Specifically, UMD says you get an effective level in the class based on your roll. So I would actually argue that a 21 will let you "be a level 1 paladin" as a "feature" of the class level 1 in "paladin." Not that it's spectacular as an item, but hey, why not?

Oh, and emulating an alignment can let you use the wrong color Robe of the Archmage or the wrong-alignment level-up books without harm. It can also let you avoid harm from alignment-locked items. Some give negative levels for carrying them if they don't like your alignment, for instance.

[paranoidbox]

while hitting 20 to use spells from off your list is certainly handy, one of UMD's most common and useful abilities is using spells from your own list with no roll or significant investment in the skill required at all. it's most popular on sorcerers, allowing them to cover gaps since their spell lists are more alike than they are different.

I'm not entirely sure that I'm understanding this correctly. A sorcerer can use "spells" from his spell list using UMD? ...Isn't that standard even without UMD?

hitting 35 and using the horseshoes of flame, for example, gives your character a huge numerical boost.

While hilarious, I've always found it a particularly stinky kind of cheese to use horseshoes on bipedal creatures. It's totally RAW-legal, I know, but still XD ...Why do you have to hit 35 though? Isn't it 25 to emulate a race?

There's the Master's Voice feat, which is a no-save (nonmagical) way of controlling unintelligent undead and constructs.

That's cool, but UMD is merely a prereq for it. It's not actually doing anything on its own.

draconic sovereign archetypes

Where is this from? And once you have Extra Turning, you count as if you have the Turn Undead ability with actual uses to burn?

Relics require an alignment and either a feat or a spell.

Yeah, I did look through the Relics. Nothing really jumped out at me as being all that good, except for the Raptor Arrows and the Enveloping Pit, that is. Any other good ones that you know of?

Specifically, UMD says you get an effective level in the class based on your roll. So I would actually argue that a 21 will let you "be a level 1 paladin" as a "feature" of the class level 1 in "paladin."

That's a good counterpoint. I mean, yeah, it's just the Holy Avenger so who really cares, but it's good to see all angles on this issue.

...emulating an alignment can let you use the wrong color Robe of the Archmage or the wrong-alignment level-up books without harm... let you avoid harm from alignment-locked items...

So I'm getting that emulating an alignment is basically the best thing to go for.

Thanks for the replies so far, guys. I appreciate it.

[Venger]

I'm not entirely sure that I'm understanding this correctly. A sorcerer can use "spells" from his spell list using UMD? ...Isn't that standard even without UMD?

I don't think so either. Let me explain differently:

If a sorcerer doesn't have, say, burning hands on his list of known spells, then in a vacuum, he can't normally cast it.

If he finds a wand in a cache of treasure that has burning hands in it, he can use it normally without needing to roll, because it's on the sorcerer/wizard list.

if a beguiler found that same wand and wanted to use the spell, he would need to make a DC 20 UMD check because it's not normally on his list.

does that make sense?

While hilarious, I've always found it a particularly stinky kind of cheese to use horseshoes on bipedal creatures. It's totally RAW-legal, I know, but still XD ...Why do you have to hit 35 though? Isn't it 25 to emulate a race?

I mean... that's literally all this use of the skill is good for, so I'm not really sure what the problem is in concept. Magic shoes explicitly resize to fit you. Yeah it's 25 that was a typo. horseshoes of flame are a really strong item, so I definitely don't suggest it in actual play but it's one of the few times emulate race actually comes up

Where is this from? And once you have Extra Turning, you count as if you have the Turn Undead ability with actual uses to burn?

sovereign archetypes are from dragons of eberron. that particular one, lightkeeper, gives you 4 extra uses of turning instead of 3 if you take extra turning, so is in theory for dragons with turning already somehow. a typical dragon doesn't gain any benefit from this.

sovereign archetypes are essentially ACFs for dragons that swap around their normal powers for different stuff.

[Echch]

If you have the Psionics-Magic transparency... Power Link Shards are amazing items. Most shards are actually pretty great if you can get them somewhere...

[Eldariel]

sovereign archetypes are from dragons of eberron. that particular one, lightkeeper, gives you 4 extra uses of turning instead of 3 if you take extra turning, so is in theory for dragons with turning already somehow. a typical dragon doesn't gain any benefit from this.

That's not at all what it does. Extra Turning by default grants four extra uses of Turning. Lightkeeper enables you to take Extra Turning even if you don't qualify for it (thus e.g. a Lightkeeper Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer can take Extra Turning, though obviously Loredrake is much, much better) and gives you a Cleric aura equal to your caster level. You also use your caster level as your effective turning level (so without some work these Dragons can only Turn small fry; however, caster level boosts are some of the most plentiful in the game). Finally, the dragon gains access to Cleric spells as well as spells from Glory, War, Law and Sun Domains as arcane spells (arguably they know all those automatically, though the intent is probably that they can learn them as Sorcerer Spells Known as with normal Dragons).

sovereign archetypes are essentially ACFs for dragons that swap around their normal powers for different stuff.

More precisely, Sovereign Archetypes give up the ability to cast Cleric and Domain Spells that many Dragons have (though many archetypes do "regain" the ability). The ones without the ability don't lose anything, except for Loredrake where their Hit Dice are degraded down to d10s. Most of them use the Dragons' Sorcerer Caster Level for their abilities so they aren't that interesting for younger Dragons but higher up they can be quite potent.

[Darrin]

My guess would be that a good chunk of the UMD uses are a hold-over from some design elements that the designers decided to de-emphasize as the game developed and more sourcebooks came out. I think their initial idea was that there would be more magic items that were tied to specific classes/races/alignments. UMD was possibly inserted as a "fix" or "Band-Aid" that could open up those restricted magic items to those PCs that wanted to invest in it.

I don't think the designers were fully aware of the Christmas Tree problem or how to fix it. But with the 3.5 update, I think there may have been a push towards more utilitarian magic items. And there's another problem with restricting magic items by class/race/alignment, as you get a cost reduction for that, and if they had focused on that, then as we know every crafting spellcaster would rack up as many cost reductions as possible and create triple-restricted items personalized to each individual user. And if we extrapolate that to every NPC spellcaster as well, it might lead to a world where *all* magic items are triple-restricted to a particular user, in which case hardly anybody would be able to use magic items.

When the MIC came out, there may have been a slight push back towards use-restricted items, but instead of UMD they went with the Relic/True Believer stuff instead.

Anyway, UMD is something like an appendix, something the designers thought would be more important in an earlier draft of the rules but turned out to be something of a dead-end.

[Diarmuid]

Another possibility would be for non-standard items that might be restricted to certain races. Many DM's like to give their BBEG's powerful items that they dont necessarily want being used by their PC's so they attach some use limitations that a UMD check might be able to get around.

It's an edge case certainly, but it's possible via RAW...there just arent too many items like that printed. I think I remember a Bow from the MIC or the Comp Champ that was extra special cool for elves or something,

[Venger]

Another possibility would be for non-standard items that might be restricted to certain races. Many DM's like to give their BBEG's powerful items that they dont necessarily want being used by their PC's so they attach some use limitations that a UMD check might be able to get around.

It's an edge case certainly, but it's possible via RAW...there just arent too many items like that printed. I think I remember a Bow from the MIC or the Comp Champ that was extra special cool for elves or something,

But did you have to be named Hank?

[Troacctid]

So here goes, my main question: Besides using scrolls, wands, and staffs with spells that are not on your spell list... is UMD really good for anything? I mean, don't get me wrong, using any spell from any spell list as long as it can be pulled out of a spell trigger or spell completion item? That's great stuff. But... is there anything else viable UMD can do?

"Besides all the things UMD is good for, is UMD good for anything?"

[Echch]

"Besides all the things UMD is good for, is UMD good for anything?"

That's a good point actually: If you go by the item creation guideline, it say that you can make it require a specific skill to use AND that you can cut the cost by making something for a specific class only.

So nothing stops you from making an item at 60% cost by having it require an alignment and a UMD skill check... both of which you can bypass via UMD.

[Venger]

That's a good point actually: If you go by the item creation guideline, it say that you can make it require a specific skill to use AND that you can cut the cost by making something for a specific class only.

So nothing stops you from making an item at 60% cost by having it require an alignment and a UMD skill check... both of which you can bypass via UMD.

except your gm saying you can't give yourself an effective discount on every item by doing this.

[Psyren]

"Besides all the things UMD is good for, is UMD good for anything?"

This is literally what I took away from the OP.

Like, if that stuff never comes up in your games, more power to you and all that, UMD isn't useful. But for most of the rest of us, at least one person in the group having it is a good thing.

[Psyren]

"Besides all the things UMD is good for, is UMD good for anything?"

This is literally what I took away from the OP.

Like, if that stuff never comes up in your games, more power to you and all that, UMD isn't useful. But for most of the rest of us, at least one person in the group having it is a good thing.

[Segev]

My guess would be that a good chunk of the UMD uses are a hold-over from some design elements that the designers decided to de-emphasize as the game developed and more sourcebooks came out. I think their initial idea was that there would be more magic items that were tied to specific classes/races/alignments. UMD was possibly inserted as a "fix" or "Band-Aid" that could open up those restricted magic items to those PCs that wanted to invest in it.

Actually, UMD was the 3.0 approach to the 2e Thief's ability to "Use Scrolls," which was a 25% plus a bonus based on level. Thieves in 1e and 2e always had the ability to spoof a wizard's magic item use to an extent. UMD is 3.0 saying "we'll codify that into a skill, because Rogues are the skill-monkeys so they can pick it up that way."

[ExLibrisMortis]

That's cool, but UMD is merely a prereq for it. It's not actually doing anything on its own.

You make a check to hack a zombie, DC 20 + HD, so you need a pretty decent (+30 and take 10) UMD check to take over the highest-level zombies, and more for higher-HD unintelligent undead (zombie dragons and whatnot).

Where is this from? And once you have Extra Turning, you count as if you have the Turn Undead ability with actual uses to burn?

Dragons of Eberron, and yes. A rare exception.

[Venger]

You make a check to hack a zombie, DC 20 + HD, so you need a pretty decent (+30 and take 10) UMD check to take over the highest-level zombies, and more for higher-HD unintelligent undead (zombie dragons and whatnot).


Dragons of Eberron, and yes. A rare exception.

he means that you also need wedded to history, umd can't do it without the feat.

[Vaz]

To clarify, were you suggesting that the Sparring Dummy is an option to UMD?

[paranoidbox]

"Besides all the things UMD is good for, is UMD good for anything?"

Well, sure, boiled down to its most logical bare bones, that's what I'm asking. The thing is though, UMD is supposed to be good for a lot more than just wands and scrolls, and that's what my question was about. I did mention that it seemed to have a lot more potential that never really got fulfilled and I was hoping someone could fill in the blanks for me.

Thanks for not really contributing, by the way! ;D

I'm kind of thinking Darrin is correct here though. UMD feels like they originally wanted to go one way and then decided "nah, let's not". They should have just named the skill Use Wand/Scroll or something and left out the whole emulating schtick.

he means that you also need wedded to history, umd can't do it without the feat.

Actually, I did skim over the feat too fast and managed to misread that you still needed UMD to use the ability. My bad!

To clarify, were you suggesting that the Sparring Dummy is an option to UMD?

It's been brought up on occasion in various threads that you can UMD it. I find it dubious, but there's arguments for both sides apparently.

[Vaz]

In regards to the Sparring Dummy, there sadly aren't arguments, just a wilful misreading. You must be a Monk, while UMD only lets you recreate Class Ability.

[Khedrac]

Also, published modules suggest that DMs should be flexible with UMD.

In one 3.5 published adventure there is a magical trap (with someone/thing inside) that needs a specific command word to release (documented later in the adventure). The DC for guessing the word via UMD is also given...

I am currently running (just started) Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Because I decided to take the instructions for activating the first portal literally the party was having problems opening it - so I allowed a UMD check and with a good result gave the rogue a decent hint (which they got first attempt) to what they were doing wrong.

UMD is as flexible as the DM allows/imagines. EDIT: But don't ask for solutions using it - ask for clues or hints, the DM is more likely to give them.

[Extra Anchovies]

To gain the benefit of its magic, a person with at least one level in monk must train with the dummy 8 hours a day for four weeks. If the training is ever interrupted for more than a 24 hours, she must begin again. If this training is interrupted twice, the monk can never gain the benefit of the sparring dummy.

It depends first and foremost on whether you count "is a monk" as something which can be emulated. Same issue as the Holy Avenger, there.

If it's a valid "emulate class feature" subject, then there's the question of how often the check needs to be made. Just once? Once each time the training is started/resumed? Once each round? I think the second of those three is the most reasonable interpretation, but the text is unclear.

Also, eight hours a day, every day, for four weeks. That's a lot of training. I guess the text assumes some Rocky-style montage period, but it leaves a lot unanswered. What's the definition of training? Does a seven-hour training day count towards the total 224 hours? If you carry the dummy on your back while training in some other way (e.g. adventuring), are you "training with the dummy"? We may never know.

[Deophaun]

If it's a valid "emulate class feature" subject, then there's the question of how often the check needs to be made. Just once? Once each time the training is started/resumed? Once each round? I think the second of those three is the most reasonable interpretation, but the text is unclear.

Why don't the general UMD rules apply?

If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

[Venger]

Why don't the general UMD rules apply?

Because someone rolling umd 224 times is really tedious?

[Eldariel]

Because someone rolling umd 224 times is really tedious?

That just means you gotta be able to make it on 1 once per hour, or be able to take 10 (the usual Artificer/Warlock, arguably skill mastery). Easy enough. Yes, the "natural 1" clause exists but it says "If you roll a 1 and fail..." so as long as you make the check on 1 you're golden. Suckers roll.

[Deophaun]

Because someone rolling umd 224 times is really tedious?

Don't roll, then. Either do what Eldariel suggests (and I would add Hardened Criminal to the list of solutions), or venture into the wonderful world of math and just use the probability of success/failure as a modifier to how long training will require. Calculate the average number of failures and the average number of those that are natural 1s and add to the base time.

Edit: This is actually easier than I thought, as I was thinking each failure would cost an hour of time. But, it doesn't. If you need to roll above a 5, that means, on average, you will get 15 hours of effective training before you roll a nat one. Assuming 8 hours of training a day, it will take you 23 hours of training time to make 15 hours of progress.