Lore : How far can Mordenkainen go ?

[Puke]

Hello mates.
As often, I come to seek your wisdom.

To begin with, I would like to thank you all again for the precious help you provide and the good will you put trying to answer every questions.
I must say I'm amazed every time I see how people behave here.

Well, here, comes my questions.

I - What are we talking about ?

The PCs just quit Abeir because they were called elsewhere, by an unknown friendly force. They traveled to Union through Sigil to reach a non-dimensional space called "The Leomund's Mansion". THE Mansion. This place is outside of the planes of existence, into the void between the planes. It is bigger in the inside, and is maintained by the alliance of the best magical secrets from the best wizards.

The place is inhabited by a version of the Circle of 8 (some members supposedly dead are here, like Otiluke, who is stuck in a non-living, non-dead state).

The plot : Kezef is roaming between the universes. When things goes wrong somewhere, he comes and gives the coup de grace to the universe, leading to his end. He is getting pretty big and powerful. The gods of Toril are aware Kezef will come, but they don't know what event will trigger it, and they don't know how they will face him (the gods of Toril are portrayed by actual players, so they have to figure a way on their own to stop Kezef, and they are not allowed to metagame [obviously] to trick him).

The thing is : the players portraying the gods are doing a very very very bad job. But they are expected to stop Kezef. The Circle of 8 does not think they are able to do it.

II - How far can Mordenkainen go ?

If we sees the Circle, this means Morde is not far away...
So, Mordenkainen is still the boss. And he is seeking for better knowledge and power to face his destiny.
I wondered... how far would he go to fulfill this purpose ? May he become a demi-lich to transcend his mortal limitations ? Would he do that to face a worlds-destroyer ? Would he sacrifice other peoples ?
I'm not very aware of the history of this character since I haven't play a Greyhawk setting till now, and I suppose there is a lot of stories about him.

[Khedrac]

Mordenkainen is fairly hands-off.
If the threat is not to Oerth he might not bother with it (that is a lot less clear). What he is most likely to do is find out what needs to be done to stop the threat and then see who is best placed to do this. He will then assist them in getting any tools they need to do this.

An example of this is in the book Nightwatch where Greyhawk is threated by one of the lords of the Horned Society. Mordenkainen sends one of the watch captains to where he can retrieve a sword that will be a great aid in the fight (Oh - and gives him transport back after he gets the sword). He very specifically does not give him the sword as that would be interfering...

[Puke]

Ok. The thing is : Oerth may be next if Toril does not stops Kezef.
SO Mordenkainen may be the one who decided the Circle had to gather the PCs right ?

And he might assist them from far away to make them do what needs to be done, but he may not do anything on his own ?

[Extra Anchovies]

Mordenkainen might not be keen on how Toril's gods use the Wall of the Faithless to bully mortals into worshipping them, in which case his assistance would be unlikely and indirect at best.

Edit: Given that Kezef was released by Cyric, a Faerunian deity, Mordenkainen's reaction might amount to "it's your problem, you go clean it up."

Also, reading Forgotten Realms lore makes my head hurt. Cyric's first acts as a deity were to kill another god, free Kezef, proclaim himself the only real god, and create a magic book which forced readers to worship him. Why wasn't he destroyed by an alliance of other gods, or even cast out by Io?

And Helm's killing of Mystra is so dumb, argh

[Khedrac]

It depends, I think (extrapolating wildly here) that if the Circle was for intervening then he might lead the intervention. If they were against intervening then that's when he would move people around more subtlely. It also depends what other wizards of powe rin Oerth are doing (not that there are very many of them).
Given that he is Neutral, he probably generally works to preserve the status quo (which a world destroyer definitely violates).

It is also worth bearing in mind that Mordenkainen has been up to some very esoteric spell research. For example, in one of the "Wizards three" articles he produced a spell that forced a random spell out of the target's memory and visited its effects upon them. Even Elminster was shocked by this one (and grateful that Mordenkainen had not, then, found a way to choose which spell was cast...)
Mordenkainen if he acts is likely to go around doing things that everyone believes impossible (quite possibly as a way of hiding his invovement). Also in one of the Wizards three articles he demonstrated (well probably, no way to prove it was him) that he could either pierce Elminster's shielding, or read Elminster like a book... Elminster may technically be more powerful, but I woudl not bet against Mordenkainen if they ever fought.

[Âmesang]

Is it bad that I'm picturing Mordenkainen facing a particular jerkish Dungeon Master and, upon taking a single step, failing a check and tripping on his robes?

I also can't help but imagine Mordenkainen attempting to unleash Tharizdun to face-off against Kezef, perhaps whilst focusing events to ensure that the two forces annihilate each other.

[RedMage125]

As far as what extremes Mordenkainen would be willing to go to, I think it's important to remember that Morde is Neutral. But he's not Neutral like most adventurers are Neutral.

Oh no.

He's that special kind of Neutral. The kind dedicated to Neutrality as an abstract concept. Morde will work with forces of Evil if Good becomes too powerful or overwhelming in an area. Same with Law and Chaos. He's also a bit arrogant in his presumption that just because of his power and his views on Good/Evil/Law/Chaos that it is somehow his right to step in and take the steps necessary to maintain that balance (even if he sometimes does it by minions or proxies).

He'd oppose Kezef, because, despite being called the Chaos Hound, Kezef is simply a force of destruction. And there is no balance in oblivion. But I don't think Morde would ever become a lich. The magicks that animate all undead are Evil. Becoming a lich is "an unspeakably evil process" to quote the Monster Manual. Morde would not undergo something so irreversible that would potentially violate his strict Neutrality.

[Puke]

Mordenkainen might not be keen on how Toril's gods use the Wall of the Faithless to bully mortals into worshipping them, in which case his assistance would be unlikely and indirect at best.

Edit: Given that Kezef was released by Cyric, a Faerunian deity, Mordenkainen's reaction might amount to "it's your problem, you go clean it up."

Also, reading Forgotten Realms lore makes my head hurt. Cyric's first acts as a deity were to kill another god, free Kezef, proclaim himself the only real god, and create a magic book which forced readers to worship him. Why wasn't he destroyed by an alliance of other gods, or even cast out by Io?

And Helm's killing of Mystra is some of the most contrived garbage I've ever come across. If you guard the celestial stairway by killing anyone who tries to climb it without even asking them what they're doing it for, you're a pretty awful god of guardians (and probably not LN, to boot).

Ahahah I feel you.

This wall is not up by now. We are playing in a very early version of Toril where many powerful being are not even born yet. That's the whole point of having players doing the god thing. They can decide what is the best for the universe, but they can be as fool as the others were.


We do not use all the canon story (and completely ignore D&D 4th things...) using some novels instead, and creativity, to suit what the characters may or not do.
As for the Cyric thing, ou previous campaign (before the wipe-out), Cyric murdered Mystra, get imprisonned by an alliance of gods, then get freed by a fool player character (yeah... you know... lord of lies... never lies when he tells you "free me or we all die"... ... ...). And eventually led to the end of this universe by allowing Shar to access divine rank 21+. At this point, Ao showed up, and decided to end the crap.

The baseline of our game is : the world has been destroyed by Ao, the super-gods (Ao like and others forgotten or unknown beings) decided to reboot everything and reset the multiverse to its beginning. But some very clever beings escaped the wipe-out by hiding at the very edge of the universe in magical pockets (the Circle of 8, the 4 players portaying the now gods, Larloch, Elminster, Telamont Tanthul, the Lady of Pain...).

As for Greyhawk, I haven't modified anything (except the composition of the Circle at this exact moment, but every member I chose is either in the circle, of was in it in the past.)
The Circle :

- Alhamazad the Wise --> Disappeared, Otiluke took his place. Otiluke is stuck between life and death and can only "live" inside the mansion.
- Bigby : I like this guy.
- Jallarzi Sallavarian : Still very busy wondering if Vecna is still alive.
- Nytsul : Dead, replaced with Tenser.
- Otto : Quit the Circle, replaced by a cleric of Trithereon called Némésis.
- Theodain Eriason : Still here.
- Warnes Starcoat : Killed by Alhamazad, then replaced by someone unknown.

Leomund is still out, or supposed dead.

Is it bad that I'm picturing Mordenkainen facing a particular jerkish Dungeon Master and, upon taking a single step, failing a check and tripping on his robes?

I also can't help but imagine Mordenkainen attempting to unleash Tharizdun to face-off against Kezef, perhaps whilst focusing events to ensure that the two forces annihilate each other.

Will think about it. But I'm not making fun of Morde. I can't break the aura of the character ;) .

As far as what extremes Mordenkainen would be willing to go to, I think it's important to remember that Morde is Neutral. But he's not Neutral like most adventurers are Neutral.

Oh no.

He's that special kind of Neutral. The kind dedicated to Neutrality as an abstract concept. Morde will work with forces of Evil if Good becomes too powerful or overwhelming in an area. Same with Law and Chaos. He's also a bit arrogant in his presumption that just because of his power and his views on Good/Evil/Law/Chaos that it is somehow his right to step in and take the steps necessary to maintain that balance (even if he sometimes does it by minions or proxies).

He'd oppose Kezef, because, despite being called the Chaos Hound, Kezef is simply a force of destruction. And there is no balance in oblivion. But I don't think Morde would ever become a lich. The magicks that animate all undead are Evil. Becoming a lich is "an unspeakably evil process" to quote the Monster Manual. Morde would not undergo something so irreversible that would potentially violate his strict Neutrality.

Ok, I agree, good point.

[RedMage125]

Mordenkainen might not be keen on how Toril's gods use the Wall of the Faithless to bully mortals into worshipping them, in which case his assistance would be unlikely and indirect at best.

Edit: Given that Kezef was released by Cyric, a Faerunian deity, Mordenkainen's reaction might amount to "it's your problem, you go clean it up."

Until it becomes his problem, which, according to the OP, it's about to.

Also, reading Forgotten Realms lore makes my head hurt. Cyric's first acts as a deity were to kill another god, free Kezef, proclaim himself the only real god, and create a magic book which forced readers to worship him. Why wasn't he destroyed by an alliance of other gods, or even cast out by Io?

Because his portfolio included Strife. He was literally doing his job to the best of his ability. If you've only read the lore and not the books themselves, it might get confusing. Cyric read his own magic book, that was what made him proclaim himself the only real god. The other gods were getting irritated at him for all his B.S., so they put him on trial. The charges? "Innocence, by reason of insanity". As the god of murder, madness, lies, and strife, his madness was actually making him less effective at fulfilling his duties (or so they accused). Being innocent of wrongdoing would be a violation of his portfolio and warrant intervention by Ao (not Io, btw, who is part of the dragon pantheon). Then, in the midst of his madness, he managed to destroy the love between Mystra and Kelemvor, thus PROVING he was still adept at his job. At the conclusion of the trial, the True Life of Cyric was read aloud, curing him of his madness.

And Helm's killing of Mystra is so dumb, argh

Never liked Helm. But his killing of her was just of symptom of the reason for why I don't like him. He has no personality. He's just a deific empty suit of armor repeating "duty, obedience, guardianship". He's the deity equivalent of a golem.

[Puke]

Helm has always been protrayed exactly how you described it.

He is the kind "The world is DYING. But I won't do anything because the only thing I could do may make me do something evil and unfair for some peoples."
And it's a tiny bit exagerated only...



Yes Kezef is going to be an issue for EVERYONE in the multiverse if he destroys Toril. Because Toril knows he is coming and the gods are planning to get rid of him together. Unfortunately, Ubato, who had to play a main role in this fight, has been slain.

He is already considered to have destroyed both Gaïa (Olypian pantheon) and the world where Tyr comes from.

[Puke]

Up !
Do you have some great sources where I can learn more about Mordenkainen ? I can include infos from novels as well.
What have you read ? What did you like ?

[Mordaedil]

Funnily, thinking of him as a golem deity makes him slightly more interesting than what he is.

Then again, I dunno what I expected Mystra to look like, but biker girl was not what I was thinking.

[Âmesang]

I would start with the gloriously titled, Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure.

*rolls a skill check for Perform (air guitar)*