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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Help with Cleric Archer build

    Hello,
    I have recently started a new character at level 12 and i decided to make a cleric archer. Although i know (even though i'm not a cleric expert) clerics are much better in melee rather than with ranged weapons i wanted to try one nonetheless but i feel it being a bit lackluster at the moment.
    Let me say in advance i read some posts here and there, such as the cleric archer quickstart guide and The Absolute Guide to Cleric Prestige Classes, plus other posts from here about clerics and what are the best spells

    We have very strict rules in our game:
    - No custom items (Weapons and armors are upgradable as usual though)
    - No PrC can go over level 10 (not even once epic)
    - Max 3 base classes and 2 PrCs
    - No exceptions on the manuals (so no asking something outside the used manuals)
    - No Relics
    - No Variants (Such as the Martial Ranger or The elf paladin substitution levels)
    - In general we don't use MIC and SPC for everything but if a spell exists in both one of the manuals we use and in the SPC then we use the SPC version (for example Hunter's Mercy which is in Magic of Faerun, Player's Guide to Faerun and Spell Compendium, we use the SPC version), same for items in the MIC

    To make up for this we have a lot of freedom on the magic items we can get

    The manuals we use are:

    - DM Guide
    - Player's Guide to Faerun
    - PhB
    - PhB 2 (only feats)
    - FR Campaign Setting
    - Champions of Ruin
    - Monters of Faerun
    - Faiths and Pantheons
    - Lost Empires of Faerun
    - Unapproachable Est
    - Magic of Faerun
    - Silver Marches
    - Races of Faerun
    - Serpent Kingdoms
    - Lords of Darkness
    - The Underdark (The Faerun manual, not Drows of the Underdark)
    - Shining South
    - Champions of Valor
    - Waterdeep City of Splendor
    - Complete Mage
    - Complete Scoundrel
    - Frostburn
    - MM 1, 2, 3
    - Complete Arcane
    - Complete Adventurer
    - Complete Warrior
    - Complete Divine
    - Races of Destiny
    - Races of Wild
    - Races of Stone
    - Stormwrack

    My current build is:

    Alignment: CG
    Race: Moon Elf
    Abilities:
    STR: 10 0
    DEX: 20 +5 (+4 From Bracers)
    CON: 12 +1 (+2 From Ioun Stone)
    INT: 10 0
    WIS: 25 +7 (+4 From Amulet)
    CHA: 18 +4 (+4 From Mantle)

    Classes: Ranger 2 (Archery, Favored Enemy: Orcs)/Cleric 3 (Solonor Thelandira)/Seeker of the Misty Isle 7 (We agreed it gives full caster level)
    Domains: Elf, War, Travel, Magic (Travel and Magic are from the PrC)

    Other Equipment:
    Vest of Resistance +1
    Moonstone Mask (+5 Spot and Listen, Darkvision)
    Monk's belt
    Quiver of Ehlonna
    Ring of Armor (light fortification, +1 AC)
    Boots of Speed
    Bracers of Archery, Greater

    +1 Splitting Elvencraft Composite Longbow (Max Str +5, which i get from divine power and righteous might), one of the quarterstaff part of the elvencraft bow is +1 and Warning

    Feats:
    Track (Bonus Ranger)
    Rapid Shot (Bonus Ranger)
    Quicken Spell
    Point Blank Shot (From Elf Domain)
    Weapon Focus Longbow (From War Domain)
    Zen Archery
    Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
    Domain Spontaneity (Travel)
    Precise Shot

    The spells i use most to buff myself are
    Divine Favor
    Greater Magic Weapon
    Righteous Might
    Divine Might
    Cold Weapon (From Frostburn)
    Righteous Wrath of the Faithful

    in addition to the other long lasting spells like Endure Elements, Tyche's Touch, Divine Intuition, Delay Poison and Magic Vestment

    Of course, i'm not always able to cast them all, sadly (and at the moment i have enough TU to cast only 1 rapid spell).

    When fully buffed my damage becomes:
    3d6 (1d8 => 2d6 for size, 1d6 from cold weapon) +5 (Str from RM and DM) +2 (Greater Magic Weapon) +3 (Divine Favor) +3 (Righteous Wrath) +1 (Bracers of Archery) +1 (Point Blank Shot)

    Which means my average damage is 25 per arrow (at Point Blank range, 24.5 otherwise), and even though i'm doing 10 attacks thanks to splitting i think it's not really that much.

    I know that being a cleric is more than just dealing damage and that anything that doesn't increase caster level is an extremely bad choice but i can't seem to find any way to greatly improve my ranged damage without getting a few levels into other non caster classes

    What i thought can be done to improve my character:

    1) Get Quick Draw at 15th to use wands drawn from Quiver of Ehlonna (we already agreed it's a free action as per FAQ), since i can use both Ranger and Wizard (as per the magic domain) wands. Some spells i was considering:
    Hunter's Mercy
    Fire Arrows
    Disobedience
    Greater Invisibility

    2) get 4 Fighter levels to get Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery

    3) Get Power attack and divine might (it doesn't specify melee weapons) so i can add my CHA to bow damage (i'll satisfy the str prereq somehow, probably with a Manual of Gainful Exercise).
    The irony is that with Power Attack and the Spikes spell i think i might be able to do more damage with the quarterstaff portion of my elvencraft bow than with my actual bow

    4) Get 3 levels of peerless archer in order to get Ranged power attack. Combined with Manyshot i could fire 4 arrows (when i get to 16th level) with the same attack bonus at full Power Attack and cover the penalty with a rapid precise shot (from the elf domain) though that'd leave the other 4 arrows generated from the splitting bow with a huge penalty on damage.
    Still ranged power attack could be a nice addition even without manyshot, since i'll be able to fire 12 arrows using Haste + Rapid Shot + Full Attack (with divine might) and splitting. Considering i'm not lacking on the attack bonus department i think i could easily get a +5 or +7 per arrow without much sweat

    5) Just keep going as a cleric once i get all the 10 Seeker of the misty isle levels, get Many Extra Turning and DMM Persist. I might need help on what spells are the best to chose for my role then.

    I'd actually love to find a class that gave me some benefits on ranged combat and increased my caster level but i can't seem to find one in the available manuals so i feel i really need some advice on this (even brand new builds from scratch will do). Too bad we can't use complete champion, i've seen a lot of interesting things there

    Thanks in advance to anyone patient enough to read all this and answer me!
    Last edited by valepu; 2016-10-27 at 02:40 PM.
    They tickle and itch, but you get used to feathers. Never quite get used to the eggs, though.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    I would suggest you report your own post asking it to be moved to the 3.5/Pathfinder forum.

    This one is "General Roleplaying" where my answer for a cleric-archer is "priest of Aldrya" which unpacks to "the elves are likely to have a cult that specialises in archery" and is totally useless for your question.

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    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    The Mod Wonder: Thread Moved. Please put system-specific threads in the appropriate subforum.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    Oh dear i'm so terribly sorry. I was pretty sure i was in the right section. My mistake
    They tickle and itch, but you get used to feathers. Never quite get used to the eggs, though.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    Generally I thought cleric Archers used divine metamagic: persist and rods of Chain spell to give the whole party plus 5 weapons and armor all day and other such buff shenanigans.

    Can anyone give an example build? I've never stepped into dmm: persist cheese before.

    Stock up on metamagic rods.

    Also do not under any circumstance take fighter levels or let your casting level dip below 17.

    New levels of spells are more important than a feat or two. Also you can use a spell called heroics to gain a fighter feat. Not sure the book on that one... may not be available.
    Last edited by Warrnan; 2016-10-27 at 02:50 PM.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    Quote Originally Posted by Warrnan View Post
    Generally I thought cleric Archers used divine metamagic: persist and rods of Chain spell to give the whole party plus 5 weapons and armor all day and other such buff shenanigans.

    Can anyone give an example build? I've never stepped into dmm: persist cheese before.

    Stock up on metamagic rods.

    Also do not under any circumstance take fighter levels or let your casting level dip below 17.

    New levels of spells are more important than a feat or two. Also you can use a spell called heroics to gain a fighter feat. Not sure the book on that one... may not be available.
    DMM Persist is harder to (ab)use without nightsticks, with my current build i have just enough TU attempts to get a rapid spell

    That's next on my shopping list, starting with extend

    Sadly that's not on the available spells for us (as far as i read it's from SPC only)
    Last edited by valepu; 2016-10-27 at 03:27 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    Hm, your stats are curious. You use Wis to attack yet you've got very high Dex? Surely Strength would've helped more? 13 Dex for Rapid Shot is enough. Well, be that as it may, one big thing you're not currently utilizing is any sort of Polymorph-form. Arrow Demon [MM3] is available if you're an Outsider and allows you to shoot two bows at once plus gives you pretty nice damage bonuses. Other purely physical bonuses pretty much dwarf the alternatives as well. Greater Anyspell is available through Initiate of Mystra or Spell domain (both in Player's Guide to Faerun with the latter also in Spell Compendium) and would get you Polymorph. There's the Otherworldly feat for the Outsider-type that Elves qualify for.

    Other than that, well, Strength-buffing to buff your damage helps a lot. For Power Shot, Energy Bow is about the only reasonable option (sadly it's only statted in an online article and due to WotC site purge, you have to dig it up from the Web Archive).

    Anyways:
    - Best Cleric Archer has 20 levels in Cleric-casting classes. Any kinds of dips cut into your buffs and there's little of relevance non-Cleric classes can provide anyways.
    - It's all about the best buffs for the situation. Generally you want at least one shapechanging effect in the mix as those are of much greater power than their peer level abilities.
    - You can use Minor Creation/similars to create poisons and poison your arrows in advance for a save/hit. Those can add a reasonable amount of damage or utility to your attacks and of course, if magically created, cost you nothing. Greater Anyspell for it (Domain Spontaneity in Spell-domain is a nice tool; then you just need to empty the domain slot to prepare stuff there) or Summon Monster VII for a Djinni.
    - Anything you can add on each arrow is real nice. Even lowly Flame Arrow spell adds 1d6 Fire to each arrow which is actually pretty good vs. anything not resistant.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GilesTheCleric's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    due to WotC site purge, you have to dig it up from the Web Archive).
    See my sig for additional access to WotC materials, both forums and web content.



    If you're going for splitting (which is the ideal way to do ranged damage), then as Eldariel states, adding damage to your attacks is very efficient. Consider grabbing Divine Might (CW 106) to get +cha to dmg. On a quick glance, I don't see a use for 20 dex. Why not swap it into int (and con) and use knowledge devotion (CC 60)? Much like with stats to damage, you can easily self-buff your skill checks.

    250 damage on a full attack at level 12 seems reasonable to me; I think changing focus to to-hit and versatility after that is more important. For example, getting access to Arrow Mind (SC 15), finding a way to create a ranged weapon if yours is gone, getting Mind Blank and True Seeing.

    For your edification, here's some benchmarks that might help you with your damage goals:

    CR avg hp max hp
    1 13 31
    3 28 55
    6 70 133
    10 137 305
    15 225 312
    20 410 858
    50 2880 2880


    As you can see, your current damage output should be fine for at least another 3 levels, so I don't see too much reason to worry about it. So is there anything other than damage that you feel lacklustre on?
    Last edited by GilesTheCleric; 2016-10-28 at 12:01 AM.

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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    Thanks for your suggestions

    Sadly I don't have access to the energy bow (I knew about it already) nor to the complete champion (which has a lot of interesting stuff for my build)

    Yes, I might move some dex indeed.

    While it's true that I do good damage when fully buffed for my level, I feel like I won't be able to further improve my damage, the easiest way that doesn't require dipping is divine power (which still requires 2 feats).

    I can't find in my available manuals more cleric spells that improve my bow damage after 5th level spells (other than greater visage of the deity), I know this sounds very silly "oh no I can alter the very fabric of reality but my pointy sticks don't do enough booboo to the baddies, poor me :( " but still it bothers me a little.

    The arrow demon is indeed interesting but I'd like to keep the role of my character (elf cleric of solonor). In the far future, when I'll be able to become an outsider (albeit temporarily ) using greater visage of the deity would that allow be to become an arrow demon using polymorph? (Which I can cast using a wand since it's a 4th level wizard spell)

    Anyways what I'm interested in is:

    1. More cleric spells that would help improve my damage (particularly of level 6 or higher)

    2. A prestige class with caster level increase that could help me (I was thinking divine disciple since it turns me into an outsider or divine Oracle. Sadly I can't pick both, I can only pick another prc)

    3. Wizard and ranger spells I can put into wands to help me

    4. if you think I can change some feats

    5. If there's a whole new build you can suggest me I'd like to maintain race and deity
    They tickle and itch, but you get used to feathers. Never quite get used to the eggs, though.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help with Cleric Archer build

    Quote Originally Posted by valepu View Post
    While it's true that I do good damage when fully buffed for my level, I feel like I won't be able to further improve my damage, the easiest way that doesn't require dipping is divine power (which still requires 2 feats).
    Your damage will keep increasing but yes, you'll have to look into auxiliary means, particularly stat stacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by valepu View Post
    The arrow demon is indeed interesting but I'd like to keep the role of my character (elf cleric of solonor). In the far future, when I'll be able to become an outsider (albeit temporarily ) using greater visage of the deity would that allow be to become an arrow demon using polymorph? (Which I can cast using a wand since it's a 4th level wizard spell)
    Yeah, though at that point you can just use Shapechange from Animal-domain instead and win everything forever. You'll want to get the domain somehow; Contemplative, Divine Disciple or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by valepu View Post
    1. More cleric spells that would help improve my damage (particularly of level 6 or higher)
    Well, obviously Miracle, Shapechange and company allow you to replicate any buffs and give you ridiculous boosts. The change from level 8 to level 9 spells is absolutely ludicrous; doubled actions, whatever stats, it's all on the table. This is why getting level 9 spells ASAP is generally the way to go. You can get Giant Size (Complete Arcane) from Miracle which completely dwarfs all other buffs, particularly if you buff your caster level above CL20. Then you use some spell that sets your size to medium thus retaining the Size bonuses but being of convenient, portable stature (in general, pumping your Strength and either getting an appropriate bow or using a base bow that adjusts for strength is the easiest at that point).

    Other than that, there's a lot of buffs of course but most have short durations (I sadly don't remember 3.0 stuff off-hand anymore). You could retool yourself for persistomancy and then persist + extend various spells giving you ~4-6 persisted spells at all times with relatively little effort (even without stacking either Nightsticks or turning pools, a single Nightstick, some Charisma-boosters, couple of Extra Turnings and your base turnings get the job done). Other than that though, you probably don't have the actions to use others.

    Quote Originally Posted by valepu View Post
    2. A prestige class with caster level increase that could help me (I was thinking divine disciple since it turns me into an outsider or divine Oracle. Sadly I can't pick both, I can only pick another prc)
    Divine Disciple is great: a Domain and Outsider-type. Pity you're going in so late: you could already be Polymorphing into Outsiders (you can enter on level 8 and finish on level 12). Contemplative is the ever-classic for more Domains (which, as you've probably picked out, are pretty good). There's always Dweomerkeeper in Complete Divine Web Enhancement if you want to go for broke but you'd want to take that all the way, and it requires some work to get into.

    Quote Originally Posted by valepu View Post
    3. Wizard and ranger spells I can put into wands to help me
    Well, any form of invisibility is obvious. Being invisible means attacking flat-footed AC aft

    Quote Originally Posted by valepu View Post
    4. if you think I can change some feats

    5. If there's a whole new build you can suggest me I'd like to maintain race and deity
    There's any number of ways to go here. You'll eventually get arcane spells through Shapechange and Miracle anyways so it's just a matter of time at this point. Most of the simple damage feats (Holy Warrior, Knowledge Devotion, etc.) are not available so little point bothering with those. It's mostly just stacking different buff types and strength and maximizing the number of attacks (something you're already doing a good job of) here. And perhaps stacking on-hits.
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