The IFCC's second call

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't see what benefit hiding that information from V would have, though? It's not like he has any power to refuse the summons when it happens, or any way to back out of the deal once he realised the terms weren't favourable to him.

V and Roy planned for two more abductions, one of about 20 minutes in length, one for about five. Imagine their surprise when it turns out, after two slightly-shorter abductions, that two or possibly many more abductions remain.

[Grey Watcher]

V and Roy planned for two more abductions, one of about 20 minutes in length, one for about five. Imagine their surprise when it turns out, after two slightly-shorter abductions, that two or possibly many more abductions remain.

Aloud: "We simply don't need to trick you if we can get what we want by playing it straight."

Thinking: "But tricking you is still a great way to get bonus perks!"

[keybounce]

I think we know what the IFCC's goals are. Maintain the status quo / present system.

They don't want the world destroyed. They don't want anyone to control the gate/snarl.

If the 6 minute possession will protect V's body from harm, and give the order a sneak attack afterwards, you can bet they will do that, if that is what it takes to keep the conflict going.

So what's going to happen at the final gate? We know that there's another world inside, possibly another universe. We know that if someone can control the gate/snarl, bad things happen. We know that if the universe is destroyed and remade, bad things happen. We know that the IFCC doesn't want those to happen.

We know that The Order has to get to point B to prevent a lopsided vote; they are likely to have issues with these giants, in this mountain playground, as well. The predictable nature of this outcome? V out of most of V's spells. When the big battle comes up later, V won't be at full strength, otherwise it would be too easy.

The only thing I could think of that would make the IFCC use a possession now? If V is about to be trampled by a giant from the rear -- and then to prevent damage to the body while taken.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think we know what the IFCC's goals are. Maintain the status quo / present system.

They don't want the world destroyed. They don't want anyone to control the gate/snarl.

If the 6 minute possession will protect V's body from harm, and give the order a sneak attack afterwards, you can bet they will do that, if that is what it takes to keep the conflict going.

So what's going to happen at the final gate? We know that there's another world inside, possibly another universe. We know that if someone can control the gate/snarl, bad things happen. We know that if the universe is destroyed and remade, bad things happen. We know that the IFCC doesn't want those to happen.

We know that The Order has to get to point B to prevent a lopsided vote; they are likely to have issues with these giants, in this mountain playground, as well. The predictable nature of this outcome? V out of most of V's spells. When the big battle comes up later, V won't be at full strength, otherwise it would be too easy.

The only thing I could think of that would make the IFCC use a possession now? If V is about to be trampled by a giant from the rear -- and then to prevent damage to the body while taken.

We don't "know" any of that, though you are free to assume. We don't know their goals, we don't know what they want for the world, we don't know what they want of the snarl, and have not been presented with much evidence to make ourselves an idea about it either. We also don't know what's on the other side of the rift, we don't know if the gate and snarl can truly be controlled, we don't know what will happen if it does, we don't know the if the IFCC wants to avoid the universe being unmade. I also don't think we know that the party will arrive at their final destination before V gets to prepare new spells, and lastly we don't know if they still want V to live at this point and would bother.

We don't know any of that, and all evidence supporting your assumptions are weak and countered by evidence of equal or greater strength. We aren't meant to know at this point, and so Rich hasn't granted us enough information to reliably understand what's going on. Sure we can guess, and odds are at least one person will guess right, but in the end it'll have remained a lucky wild guess.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm pretty sure they don't want the entire multiverse erased, since that'd erase them too. Beyond that, their only known goals are pointless, destructive combat and unifying all the Lower Planes so as to annihilate the Upper Planes (and probably the planes in between, but that's not a given).

[factotum]

we don't know if the gate and snarl can truly be controlled

Given that the spell to achieve this was created by a God, I think we can be reasonably sure the gate can be controlled. The Snarl can't be, of course, since it's a being of pure Chaos, but the intent is only to put the gate into some god's home and let the Snarl do what it does best, so no control of it is necessary.

[Markozeta]

We all know the real purpose of the second call will be to screw up Blackwing. He'll finally do something important and then - "Now". We can all see it.

[wumpus]

But do they WANT the world destroyed? I'm having trouble figuring out what that would get them: if the gods remake the world, there might not BE any Gates to exploit in world 3.0 (since, presumably, they've identified the bug that caused the Rifts in the first place and will fix it for the rerelease).

Whatever their game is, they seem to want it to come to a head at Chez Kraagor. (I suppose if they want to control the Gate themselves, they let Girard's Gate be destroyed to ensure there'd be only one, so they could exploit the Gates without interference from someone doing the same on the other Gate.)

It might be a handy backup plan. They need to kill a ton of metallic dragons to appease Tiamat. If they could claim even a sliver of Hel's kills (and I'm sure the IFCC are masters of such loopholes) they could get Tiamat off their backs while they start operations on the next world the gods create. Expect the IFCC to switch to Hel's side the moment their plans appears to be in danger (they might like the world, but if they can't deliver the dragons for Tiamat nothing in the world can save them).

[archon_huskie]

It might be a handy backup plan. They need to kill a ton of metallic dragons to appease Tiamat. If they could claim even a sliver of Hel's kills (and I'm sure the IFCC are masters of such loopholes) they could get Tiamat off their backs while they start operations on the next world the gods create. Expect the IFCC to switch to Hel's side the moment their plans appears to be in danger (they might like the world, but if they can't deliver the dragons for Tiamat nothing in the world can save them).

Nothing except feeding Tiamat to the Snarl.

[keybounce]

Can you imagine what the Snarl would be like after a meal of Tiamat?

[M Placeholder]

Can you imagine what the Snarl would be like after a meal of Tiamat?

Remember, The Chromatic Dragon Queen is an ally of The Dark One and Rat. Perhaps The Dark One can move the gate to Bahamut and make him the first victim of The Snarl as a favour for Tiamat. 1 Bahamut equals how many Metallic Dragons?

[hroþila]

Remember, The Chromatic Dragon Queen is an ally of The Dark One and Rat.

"Ally" may be too strong a word.

[Kish]

It's the word used in Start of Darkness.

That said, I see no indication that the Snarl was significantly changed in any visible way by the gods it ate before, so there's likely no need to imagine what it would be like after eating Tiamat, if for some reason it ate Tiamat: just look and see.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why are we even talking about the Snarl as if it consumes, rather than annihilates, [the souls of] the beings that approach it? It's never shown or described as consuming anything, always destroying or killing.

[hroþila]

It's the word used in Start of Darkness.

I don't think SoD uses "allies" as in "The gods who would start plotting with the Dark One", but rather as "the gods who defended him when the other gods tried to outright kill him". I.e. I don't think SoD implies the sort of formal alliance the post I was replying to would necessitate.

[hamishspence]

Why are we even talking about the Snarl as if it consumes, rather than annihilates, [the souls of] the beings that approach it? It's never shown or described as consuming anything, always destroying or killing.

"Devouring" sounds pretty similar:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

[M Placeholder]

I don't think SoD uses "allies" as in "The gods who would start plotting with the Dark One", but rather as "the gods who defended him when the other gods tried to outright kill him". I.e. I don't think SoD implies the sort of formal alliance the post I was replying to would necessitate.

It doesn't have to be a formal alliance. Just a solid from one evil god to another.

[zimmerwald1915]

"Devouring" sounds pretty similar:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

That's one word (technically two, but I'll get to that), out of a spiel that includes "strike," "destroy," "slay," "execute," "cut," "rain armageddon," and "undo." If all of these are meant to be taken literally, the balance of probabilities is sharply one way. But more likely, Shojo was speaking poetically, embellishing with metaphor.

The crayon art also shows the Snarl tearing, puncturing, crushing, and pulverizing, but not consuming - even though it's drawn with a mouth, claws, and more importantly for the metaphor argument, eyes. Shojo describes them as "hungry." But in the Snarl's actual appearance (where it definitely impales an Empire of Sweat soldier through the chest the same way it did Zeus in the crayon art), its tendrils are not tipped with claws, and its eyes and mouth are nowhere to be seen. At best, for the literal interpretation, they're off panel. More likely, they don't exist and never did.

Finally, it should be noted that even if Shojo is absolutely literal and correct, he only describes the Snarl being "hungry" for and "devouring" mortal souls. Most (but by no means all) of those other descriptive words described what the Snarl did to the Eastern Pantheon and presumably does to gods generally. So if we're talking about Tiamat meeting the Snarl, it's still not appropriate to describe the result as it "eating" her.

[Psyren]

That's one word (technically two, but I'll get to that), out of a spiel that includes "strike," "destroy," "slay," "execute," "cut," "rain armageddon," and "undo." If all of these are meant to be taken literally, the balance of probabilities is sharply one way. But more likely, Shojo was speaking poetically, embellishing with metaphor.

Thing is, "consuming" something and "destroying" it are not mutually exclusive. We use both terms with fire and acid, for example.

Having said that, I don't think the things the Snarl eats/burns/etc would alter it significantly.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Thing is, "consuming" something and "destroying" it are not mutually exclusive. We use both terms with fire and acid, for example.

Having said that, I don't think the things the Snarl eats/burns/etc would alter it significantly.

It's a being of such pure chaos that I find it hard to believe that the Snarl would actually have a digestive tract or any such functions. It grew from inter-deity conflict, remember? Why would mortal bodies and souls fuel it at all?

Something can be "consumed", as detailed above, without deriving any material or nutritional benefit from it. Much as salt is apparently consumed by water by dissolution, the Snarl simply moves things it strikes into a state of greater entropy.

[Snails]

I will be very surprised if the IFCC calls in their debt in a way that's to the benefit of Vaarsuvius or the Order.

I would argue that their first intervention did help both the Order and V, albeit it was a side-effect of a larger plan we do not quite understand. Roy's reasoning was sound and V's well intentioned argument could have only muddied the waters long enough to allow Xykon or Tarquin to seize the Gate. The likely result would have been world annihilation by the gods.

[Snails]

The short glimpse we see of what happened to Laurin I believe qualifies as putting us on notice that our usual ways of interpreting behavior and action may not apply to the Snarl, certainly far less so than those very anthropomorphized gods.

[TheNecrocomicon]

The short glimpse we see of what happened to Laurin I believe qualifies as putting us on notice that our usual ways of interpreting behavior and action may not apply to the Snarl, certainly far less so than those very anthropomorphized gods.

Just as in the other thread, that's not really indicative of anything at this point, since Blackwing was similarly mentally paralyzed upon gazing into the Rift in Azure City, and since that point he has shown absolutely nothing in the way of lingering effects from it. Since Blackwing has humanoid mental faculties, and so does Laurin, the most probable outcome is that the same end result of a full recovery happened to them both. But I guess there are those who won't believe that unless Mr. Burlew explicitly cuts back to the Western Continent to show Laurin's current status, despite how unimportant that is to the actual plotline at this point.

There are no real rules or ways of understanding or dealing with an entity like the Snarl, which is essentially chaos incarnate. It has no plans, no thought, no central mind; it is pure malevolence given form and is more or less a force of nature in the world these characters inhabit.

[Snails]

There are no real rules or ways of understanding or dealing with an entity like the Snarl, which is essentially chaos incarnate. It has no plans, no thought, no central mind; it is pure malevolence given form and is more or less a force of nature in the world these characters inhabit.

Well, there could be rules and ways of understanding the Snarl, but the gods were too scared to try after its demolition of Zeus and friends and the World 1.0. The Scribblers never got around to figuring anything out either. Perhaps the High Priest of the Holey Hole had useful information, but the Scribblers did not bother to ask.

As Redcloak has stated, given the tales of the Snarl's previous behavior, it is surprising the Snarl has not reached out and taken some bites out of Azure Goblin City. The gap over Goblin City looks hundreds of feet wide, after all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, there could be rules and ways of understanding the Snarl, but the gods were too scared to try after its demolition of Zeus and friends and the World 1.0. The Scribblers never got around to figuring anything out either. Perhaps the High Priest of the Holey Hole had useful information, but the Scribblers did not bother to ask.

As Redcloak has stated, given the tales of the Snarl's previous behavior, it is surprising the Snarl has not reached out and taken some bites out of Azure Goblin City. The gap over Goblin City looks hundreds of feet wide, after all.

Given that the Snarl is a being of Chaos, we ought not assign to it rational thinking modes. Projection, and all that. Who knows why it does what it does in its current condition? Who knows how close you need to get to it to trigger a response? Very few data points so far.

[nleseul]

Well, there could be rules and ways of understanding the Snarl, but the gods were too scared to try after its demolition of Zeus and friends and the World 1.0. The Scribblers never got around to figuring anything out either. Perhaps the High Priest of the Holey Hole had useful information, but the Scribblers did not bother to ask.

As Redcloak has stated, given the tales of the Snarl's previous behavior, it is surprising the Snarl has not reached out and taken some bites out of Azure Goblin City. The gap over Goblin City looks hundreds of feet wide, after all.

I don't think we've actually seen any events in Gobbotopia since the Snarl(?) attacked Laurin in the desert, have we? It's possible it didn't realize the rifts were vulnerable until she started psionically poking it. If that's the case, it might have started spilling out of the Gobbotopia rift too, off-screen. Meaning that there could be a very panicked Jirix trying to get a sending through to Redcloak.

[LadyEowyn]

I don't think we've actually seen any events in Gobbotopia since the Snarl(?) attacked Laurin in the desert, have we? It's possible it didn't realize the rifts were vulnerable until she started psionically poking it. If that's the case, it might have started spilling out of the Gobbotopia rift too, off-screen. Meaning that there could be a very panicked Jirix trying to get a sending through to Redcloak.

I'm quite afraid that's what will happen - if not now, after the conflict at the final gate. There's so much poetic irony in it: the city that exemplifies what Redcloak wanted to achieve for his people being destroyed by his dedication to the Plan and his continued alliance with Xykon.