The Roleplaying Things That Shall Not Be Named

[Khedrac]

"That Damned Crab" was actually one from a WotC 3.5 web article, the Stormwrack version was toned down a fair bit.

The Comeliness start in 1st Ed AD&D is worth mentioning because of one of the optional stat rolling mechanisms:
The stat order depended on your class, but one stat was roll 9d6 keep best 3, the next was roll 8d6 keep best 3 ... down to roll 3d6 keep all 3.
Now for a 7 stat 3-18 system that has some point to it, but they used Comeliness as the 7th stat which meant it had virtually no in game use yet varied where it came in the state order...

Other things worth a mention:

Traveller - oops your character died during character creation
Experience and character improvement (I did find rules for it once in the original traveler reprint, but the game was not designed for campaigns).

DragonQuest - choose a race, if not human roll to see if you can play that race (anything from about a 30% chance down to a 5% chance) if you fail play human.

Rolemaster - huge number of charts and tables that defeated most groups (I had a really good GM at school who made it work).

Pretty much any crit-based system with new characters.

Gamma World - hit point range between party members (con was 3d6, you had your con score in hide dice), any opponent with intensity 18 poison or radiation (auto kill against anyone with a con of 18 or below)

[8BitNinja]

Racial Holy War, a "game" made by a bunch of neo-nazis too busy jacking off to pictures of Hitler to actually bother making actual rules for fighting against the subhuman scum(aka nonwhite people, and probably even most white people too, if they're being honest), ironically meaning that the players are actually the inferior race in this game. I literally don't think this game is actually possible to play.

I've read through the entire thing (about 20 pages) before and I think that it's not even a game. Not a playable one at least.

You see, on each end of the offensive spectrum, we have FATAL, which is unplayable due to massive detail (it takes literally up to 3 hours to roll a character), and then we have Racial Holy War, which is unplayable due to lack of detail.

[Belac93]

The particular phrase was applied to a crab from Stormwrack that had a ridiculously low CR given it's crush attack that did a bunch of CON damage every round. It basically took ridiculous levels of optimization and/or extreme levels of round-1 damage for an "appropriately" leveled party of 4 to kill it without PC deaths.

And on the subject of under-CRed monsters: Adamantine Horrors

Also, on a slightly related note: Mordenkainen's Disjunction

In the same vein, the intellect devourer from 5e. I made the mistake of pitting my players against a pair of those things them they were level 5. Any character without at least 11 intelligence is pretty much instantly dead, and anyone with less than 19 intelligence is still at risk of dying in 2 rounds. And barbarians often have an intelligence of 8.

And those things are supposed to be a medium challenge for a group of level 2 characters.

[No brains]

I've got one that stems from the comeliness/appearance debate: whether or not a certain piece of equipment is 'realistic' or not. Part of the idea of fantasy is that somethings look nice or interesting for the people imagining them. Not only that, but making gear for fighting inhuman monsters and magic may actually create demands that historical stuff can't meet. I actually think it's cool if someone goes through the effort to describe their character in a historically faithful way, but it can really drag down the fun if people discuss whether or not this is 'good'.

[Katrina]

In the same vein, the intellect devourer from 5e. I made the mistake of pitting my players against a pair of those things them they were level 5. Any character without at least 11 intelligence is pretty much instantly dead, and anyone with less than 19 intelligence is still at risk of dying in 2 rounds. And barbarians often have an intelligence of 8.

And those things are supposed to be a medium challenge for a group of level 2 characters.

The 5E Intellect Devourer. The only thing that still does Stat damage. My group freaked when they found that, because they hadn't found anything that cured stat damage anymore. It was so funny to watch them panic and check books.

Now, to clarify, I've not gotten into their 5E games cause I don't have the scheduling. In fact, I've not even picked up the 5E books that much because the once over I gave them didn't impress me. That said, I've heard good things and bad things. But the CR 2 who flat-lines parties with something that apparently "Doesn't exist anymore" (as one player said) amused me.

[Vrock_Summoner]

I don't have problems with women... as long as they aren't taking their clothes off, offering to have sex with everyone at the table, and/or so beautiful as to distract from the game.

You're being sarcastic, right? Especially with that last one. I really can't tell.

I mean, while I'm doubtful they've happened a statistically significant number of times in tabletop gaming history, I can at least agree that the first two would be disruptive if they hypothetically happened (though they'd be a problem if men did them too)... But being "so beautiful as to distract from the game"?

Whether or not an Appearance stat as a mechanic is a good thing, I hardly find it fair to ban people from your games for having a high one in real life. And in this context, it seems quite sexist. It's not at all fair to blame/exclude women because of your own inability to not ogle them.

[Cluedrew]

To Vrock_Summoner: I think Quertus is referring to a tendency for some immature male players to play objects of sexual attraction rather than characters. I have played along a clerk whose only defining characteristics were having large breasts and being sexually suggestive at all times. Luckily we kept the action happening fast enough it never went beyond that.

[Vrock_Summoner]

To Vrock_Summoner: I think Quertus is referring to a tendency for some immature male players to play objects of sexual attraction rather than characters. I have played along a clerk whose only defining characteristics were having large breasts and being sexually suggestive at all times. Luckily we kept the action happening fast enough it never went beyond that.

I'd certainly accept that interpretation much more agreeably. I read it as talking about female gamers, not badly-played female characters. But the ambiguity is there to make either interpretation possible, so thanks for pointing out that possibility to me.

[8BitNinja]

To Vrock_Summoner: I think Quertus is referring to a tendency for some immature male players to play objects of sexual attraction rather than characters. I have played along a clerk whose only defining characteristics were having large breasts and being sexually suggestive at all times. Luckily we kept the action happening fast enough it never went beyond that.

What's wrong with that?

Okay, it was a joke, put the guns down.

[Zalabim]

The 5E Intellect Devourer. The only thing that still does Stat damage. My group freaked when they found that, because they hadn't found anything that cured stat damage anymore. It was so funny to watch them panic and check books.

Now, to clarify, I've not gotten into their 5E games cause I don't have the scheduling. In fact, I've not even picked up the 5E books that much because the once over I gave them didn't impress me. That said, I've heard good things and bad things. But the CR 2 who flat-lines parties with something that apparently "Doesn't exist anymore" (as one player said) amused me.

Shadows still deal strength damage too, though theirs just takes rest to recover. FWIW, Greater Restoration is the way to heal Intellect Devourer damage. A level 5 spell to cure a condition caused by a CR 2 monster.

Whether or not an Appearance stat as a mechanic is a good thing, I hardly find it fair to ban people from your games for having a high one in real life. And in this context, it seems quite sexist. It's not at all fair to blame/exclude women because of your own inability to not ogle them.

Well there is that story about three men being deported from a country for being too handsome. Probably not fair either, but at least it's equal?

[quinron]

Shadows still deal strength damage too, though theirs just takes rest to recover. FWIW, Greater Restoration is the way to heal Intellect Devourer damage. A level 5 spell to cure a condition caused by a CR 2 monster.

The Monster Manual even explicitly calls out not using certain creatures that have abilities your players can't handle, usually citing them as an element of the creature's Challenge rating. Their example is a rakshasa (CR 13), who lower-level characters can't even affect with spells since it's immune to spells of 6th level or lower. So fine, it's meant to fight 13th-level characters and only 13th-level+ spellcasters can hit it; but a creature whose key damage method can't be healed in any way until 7 levels after its CR? I don't think the Intellect Devourer is dangerous enough to warrant granting 9th-level XP, but there should at least be a sidebar with a caveat in there.

[Stealth Marmot]

Well there is that story about three men being deported from a country for being too handsome. Probably not fair either, but at least it's equal?

This has nothing to do with anything.

[8BitNinja]

The Monster Manual even explicitly calls out not using certain creatures that have abilities your players can't handle, usually citing them as an element of the creature's Challenge rating. Their example is a rakshasa (CR 13), who lower-level characters can't even affect with spells since it's immune to spells of 6th level or lower. So fine, it's meant to fight 13th-level characters and only 13th-level+ spellcasters can hit it; but a creature whose key damage method can't be healed in any way until 7 levels after its CR? I don't think the Intellect Devourer is dangerous enough to warrant granting 9th-level XP, but there should at least be a sidebar with a caveat in there.

This is just wrong

[Katrina]

This is just wrong

I think it's a case of a badly considered CR for what has been admittedly a very wonky monster through every version of D&D. The Intellect Devourer is a strange "All or Nothing" threat in almost every version of the game. Either it has always been able to wipe you out or it has stood no chance against you. The biggest problem here is that in 5E, the Devourer is a walking TPW at its recommended CR and there is a very low chance of defeating it without losing people unless you have every advantage. And my resident 5E Rules Lawyer pointed out to me over the weekend that a party is not supposed to lose a person on the average equal CR engagement.

[8BitNinja]

I think it's a case of a badly considered CR for what has been admittedly a very wonky monster through every version of D&D. The Intellect Devourer is a strange "All or Nothing" threat in almost every version of the game. Either it has always been able to wipe you out or it has stood no chance against you. The biggest problem here is that in 5E, the Devourer is a walking TPW at its recommended CR and there is a very low chance of defeating it without losing people unless you have every advantage. And my resident 5E Rules Lawyer pointed out to me over the weekend that a party is not supposed to lose a person on the average equal CR engagement.

Like the Terrasque? Except this isn't Godzilla.

[Katrina]

Like the Terrasque? Except this isn't Godzilla.

At least the Tarrasque has the decency to have the highest CR rating that is really reasonable.

[8BitNinja]

At least the Tarrasque has the decency to have the highest CR rating that is really reasonable.

And most DMs are merciful enough to not use it.

[JAL_1138]

If you have somebody with a magic bow (or the ability to cast some spell such as Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon), and a wizard with 7th-level slots, the Tarrasque can be a pushover. Cast Reverse Gravity on it and plink away with the magic bow until it dies.

[8BitNinja]

If you have somebody with a magic bow (or the ability to cast some spell such as Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon), and a wizard with 7th-level slots, the Tarrasque can be a pushover. Cast Reverse Gravity on it and plink away with the magic bow until it dies.

I'm taking careful notes and drawing diagrams right now.

[Tohron]

I'm taking careful notes and drawing diagrams right now.

If you want to get really cheap, the winner of a thread for cheapest Tarrasque-killing methods involved a 1st level Wizard with a scroll of Wish, and a 5th level Expert with Animal Handling who trained a War Elephant and equipped it with a special saddle holding 10 400lb iron weights on quick release, then gave it potions of Bull's Strength and Fly. Fly above the Tarrasque, drop the weights from the maximum 1-round falling distance (150ft), then once it's in the negatives, the wizard uses the scroll to keep it dead.

So, to keep that on topic:
* Encounter's that players were supposed to flee from that end up getting curb-stomped due to special tactics.

[AnBe]

If you want to get really cheap, the winner of a thread for cheapest Tarrasque-killing methods involved a 1st level Wizard with a scroll of Wish, and a 5th level Expert with Animal Handling who trained a War Elephant and equipped it with a special saddle holding 10 400lb iron weights on quick release, then gave it potions of Bull's Strength and Fly. Fly above the Tarrasque, drop the weights from the maximum 1-round falling distance (150ft), then once it's in the negatives, the wizard uses the scroll to keep it dead.

So, to keep that on topic:
* Encounter's that players were supposed to flee from that end up getting curb-stomped due to special tactics.

Oh, that's brilliant. Goodbye, Tarrasque. I wish the people I game with would think of awesome stuff like that.

[Hawkstar]

Oh, that's brilliant. Goodbye, Tarrasque. I wish the people I game with would think of awesome stuff like that.

The tarrasque just has one big, crippling flaw - It's a grounded, melee-only monster. Anything that flies above it or can otherwise outrange it can kill it at its leisure.

If they'd taken a cue from Godzilla and given it a radioactive beam breath, there wouldn't be a problem.

[JAL_1138]

The tarrasque just has one big, crippling flaw - It's a grounded, melee-only monster. Anything that flies above it or can otherwise outrange it can kill it at its leisure.

If they'd taken a cue from Godzilla and given it a radioactive beam breath, there wouldn't be a problem.

It desperately needs ranged attacks to be fearsome. Otherwise it's subject to cheese.

As a note, Reverse Gravity won't work if it has something to grab on to, like a building. It'll Legendary Resistance the Dex save. You could spam spells that require a save until it's out of Legendary resistances; Polymorph works well because no DM wants the Tarrasque to be turned into a miniature giant space hamster or whatever; it's undignified. Once it's out, its Dex isn't terriffic, and you could force a fail with Portent if you're a Diviner. Once it's floating, though, it's helpless for up to an hour. Plink away with magic ranged weapons (to avoid the Reglective Carapace chance of a rebound from cantrips) until it's kaput. The 5e version doesn't have regen and nothing says you need a Wish to keep it dead, so you don't need 9th-level spells.

Fortunately for the Tarrasque, there aren't many spells that target Int that would be particularly helpful. You can maze it, but then it comes back unharmed soon after. Might be enough time to set something up to receive it, like ten thousand flasks of alchemist's fire, but that's not really practical. Luckily for the Tarrasque, the Intellect Devourer's ability Body Thief only works on humanoids. Depending on how your DM rules effects while Polymorphed, though, two Diviners (because portent) could possibly team up to True Polymorph the Tarrasque into a humanoid, and True Polymorph an ally into an Intellect devourer, and have them eat its brain, although that opens up a huge can of worms about how to rule what happens to a TP'd creature whose brain is eaten, whether it reverts or stays dead if it dies, or what happens if TP wears off with the Intellect Devourer still in its head.

If you follow the Sage Advice that Power Word Kill will kill a Wildshaped druid outright (rather than simply revert them to normal with their prior hit points), create a Simulacrum for extra slots (or to cast Fly on both of you) and spam Polymorph until you eventually turn it into a squirrel. Proceed to PWK it.

[Vinyadan]

I liked 1E artwork. Amateurish lineart, particularly for monsters, has sort of a "field guide made by some in-universe adventurer" feel. I miss charmingly-bad art.

However, I'd call 5e's halfling art a Thing That Shall Not Be Named. It's not charmingly-bad, it's outright uncanny-valley disturbing.

Argh why did I search this, is that a creepy gnome race that stalks women at night? It reminds me of sharp things and fish looming in water ponds to bite you in the private parts.

If you want to get really cheap, the winner of a thread for cheapest Tarrasque-killing methods involved a 1st level Wizard with a scroll of Wish, and a 5th level Expert with Animal Handling who trained a War Elephant and equipped it with a special saddle holding 10 400lb iron weights on quick release, then gave it potions of Bull's Strength and Fly. Fly above the Tarrasque, drop the weights from the maximum 1-round falling distance (150ft), then once it's in the negatives, the wizard uses the scroll to keep it dead.

So, to keep that on topic:
* Encounter's that players were supposed to flee from that end up getting curb-stomped due to special tactics.

I seem to remember something about throwing an aboleth into its mouth, but I can't recall how it worked. Something about mud or mucus.

[Cluedrew]

If they'd taken a cue from Godzilla and given it a radioactive beam breath, there wouldn't be a problem.

I say give it a sonic roar attack, maybe with anti-magic properties. It seems like the most natural (as in from nature) ability for a creature like that. Given the size of its lungs it could probably drop the air pressure in the air for a moment by inhaling quickly. I don't have as clean of an explanation for the anti-magic, but it would probably be very effective and it make some internal sense that a creature like the tarrasque (which is big and less numerous and so has to have high survival rates) would have some defence against it.

Maybe trying to apply natural laws is a waste of time, but as it is supposed to be of this world (as opposed to say a demon) I think it holds to an extent.

[Vinyadan]

I say give it a sonic roar attack, maybe with anti-magic properties. It seems like the most natural (as in from nature) ability for a creature like that. Given the size of its lungs it could probably drop the air pressure in the air for a moment by inhaling quickly. I don't have as clean of an explanation for the anti-magic, but it would probably be very effective and it make some internal sense that a creature like the tarrasque (which is big and less numerous and so has to have high survival rates) would have some defence against it.

Maybe trying to apply natural laws is a waste of time, but as it is supposed to be of this world (as opposed to say a demon) I think it holds to an extent.

I know that many reptiles musk when they feel threatened, and that the musk of certain crocodiles is strong enough to kill micro-organisms, and that it generally smells disgusting. So you could easily give it the power to emit a chocking stench that can cause various status effects.

Another option is shooting blood from its eyes, like certain lizards. And some snakes can spit poison. Or make it smart enough to throw boulders, give it a few levels in hulking hurler.

[Belac93]

I would just give the tarresque a version of the Giant's rock throwing ability. Maybe they can use it instead of a claw attack.

[8BitNinja]

Paladin magic item restrictions in AD&D

[Erit]

Or make it smart enough to throw boulders, give it a few levels in hulking hurler.

Doesn't the Tarrasque have humanlike (albeit very very stupid) intelligence? Int 3 is smart enough to be a phenomenally dumb PC rather than an animal. Or is that unique to 3.5?

[Belac93]

Doesn't the Tarrasque have humanlike (albeit very very stupid) intelligence? Int 3 is smart enough to be a phenomenally dumb PC rather than an animal. Or is that unique to 3.5?

No, intelligence 3 is like an intelligence animal. For example, a dog has an intelligence of 3, a mule has an intelligence of 2, and a spider has an intelligence of 1. So, a PC unlucky enough to roll a 3 on their intelligence (or an orc who rolled a 5), cannot speak or do anything more intelligent that a dog could manage.