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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    I'm not really sure that crossing 3pp like that is a great idea for a guide, Leaf. The two products were not even remotely made with each other in mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    I'm not really sure that crossing 3pp like that is a great idea for a guide, Leaf. The two products were not even remotely made with each other in mind.
    I mean fair enough Gareth, it may not fit the guide. Consider though the fact that Steelforge literally has several items designed for crossing pieces of 3pp from these two publishers.

    So if one is running Spheres of Power and also Path of War, two products that cover very different design spaces and have a net effect of bringing both martials and casters closer to tier 3, it might be worth mentioning. Maybe not though, not my guide.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Ah my friend, you see there are two core components. The Whitesmith Archetype, and Casting Tradition Boons. Whitesmith means that Enhancements placed on your equipment doesn't require concentration. If you basically take all of the Drawbacks so that casting only works out of combat, you can have potentially a +10 bonus on spells cast out of combat from Boons. You can also take a trait for another +2 when out of Spell Points. This means that 3 levels give you a nice 15 Caster levels, plus a +1 bonus from the class itself. So you have a +5 weapon and armor and shield at level 3 which is nice.

    The second part is that if you take the Wild Magic feat which gives you the ability to pick up a single talent from a sphere you possess. You can now provide your +5 weapon with weightlessness, corrosive, flaming, frost, or shock properties which each have +7 additional damage, another +1 bonus, and keen. The Arsenal Trick is nice for picking up any movement mode you need via Movement, or whatever you like.

    Plus later on you can pick up a +5 staff and provide another +1 bonus along with your Energy damage improving to 1d6+10. It's some really good stuff.
    Let me see if I can follow you.

    Whitesmith Armorist 3: CL 3 with enhancement
    Deathful Magic: +2 CL when at 1/4th HP
    Draw Magic: +2 CL when with 30 feet of 6 creatures under the effects of your sphere abilities
    Empowered Abilities: +2 CL when you have 0 spell points
    Overcharge: +2 CL for one spell and you become fatigued
    Mystic Training trait: +2 CL when you have 0 spell points
    That's a CL of 13 total. Metamagic Expert doesn't work, because there are no +0 level increase metamagic feats that can be used with Enhance Item, unless you can use Merciful Spell because it doesn't exclude any spells in its description from being made Merciful, even non-damaging ones. And I don't think the +1 CL from Armorist 2 stacks with a Whitesmith using their class level as their CL for enhancement on objects. I think it means that a Whitesmith has high caster progression for enhancement on objects instead of low caster progression. If you allow Merciful Spell, that's a CL of 14.

    You need 8 (or 10) general drawbacks. That would have to be Emotional Casting, Focus Casting, Magical Signs, Material Casting, Painful Magic, Prepared Caster, Rigorous Concentration, Verbal Casting. Maybe Extended Casting (2). And Material Casting has a designer's note informing GMs not to allow players to take it if it will be easily countered.

    You have the Enhancement sphere for free, and 3 talents. You need a way to activate the bonus of Draw Magic, so you need 6+ friends and a spell which costs no spell points and remains on them without concentration. So one of your talents needs to be the Light sphere to make your friends Glow. One would be Greater Enhancement, and the last would be Energy Weapon. I don't think Lighten or Keen are worth spending a feat on for a Zealot.

    Then the enhancement bonus of your gear will be as follows:
    Enhance Equipment spell CL 14: +3
    Personal Refinement from Whitesmith 3: +1
    Greater Enhancement talent: +1
    +5 total. It would be +6 if you could get your CL up to 15.

    All together, you spend 3 levels, 1 trait, and possibly 1 feat. And in return, you gain +3/1/1 saves, +3 BAB, +3d10 HD, 0 usable spell points, 0 usable spells during the rest of the day other than Glow, 1 arsenal trick, a +5 flaming weapon, +5 armor, and a +5 shield (total value 122000 gp).

    Well, that's a pretty cool trick, I suppose. But it seems like more of a trick for low level martial characters in general, and has no real bearing on Zealots at all. Even though it makes for a big chunk of attack bonus and AC in early levels, I think that other dips already listed in my guide are genuinely better than this trick for a Zealot. It loses all of its value at higher levels, too. It also has huge potential for the GM to screw with you, but that's neither here nor there. The point of dips is to add unique and useful functionality that you can't get from pure Zealot levels or wealth.

    Sorry, I don't think I'll be putting Spheres of Power Stuff in my guide, at least not until I finish all of the other disciplines. People say that SoP is high quality 3pp much like DSP, so I'm not completely opposed to the idea. If I do put SoP stuff in, it'll have a big disclaimer and whatnot. This trick just doesn't fit in a Zealot guide, is all. But thank you for showing it to me

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    I'm not really sure that crossing 3pp like that is a great idea for a guide, Leaf. The two products were not even remotely made with each other in mind.
    Yeah, who'd make a game that focused on both? That'd be ridiculous!
    Last edited by digiman619; 2016-11-29 at 04:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    In general, this is favorable to the casters.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Stuff
    Ah, seems like you're missing a few bit (although it's not specifically a Zealot trick indeed, just a nice martial bonus).

    First is Sphere Specific Drawbacks, so dump some of those on Enhancement for additional free talents and also Everglow on your Light Sphere. That gets you some nice permanently available bonuses.
    Second is the Wild Magic handbook, which included a boon for another +2, as well as the following Feat:
    Inspired Surge (Wild Magic)
    Prerequisites: casting class feature
    Benefit: When casting a sphere effect, you may increase the wild magic chance by 100% to add a single talent that you do not possess from one of the effect’s base spheres to the effect. For every 5 wild magic feats you possess, increase the number of talents gained this way by +1.
    That means (as you don't have to concentrate for any Enhancement talent) that you can access every single Enhancement talent on your own gear. So now we're back up to a +6 bonus and every possible object enhancement.
    Third is that there's nothing stopping you from adding Flaming and Frost and Corrosive and Shock on the same weapon, thus giving you 4d6+28 damage, although most of the time it'll be lower. Plus Keen. Plus Dispel resistance. Plus Bleed. And you can get tricky with some Bestow Intelligence things, but I'm not sure how that actually would work out.
    Fourth is that money has value and also that 80% of games don't go past 12 or so. This means for the full total of game time, you will have far better Arms and Armor than the rest of the party and also the monster you'd fight. It's worth at least a few points of additional Attack and far more than that of addition Damage.

    All that being said, it's way better for E6 games and not Zealot specific. If you do decide to have a footnote for SoP, consider including it. It's generally a pretty good time.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    And that's on those GMs, not the products. People unfamiliar with these will read guides, like this one, to gain a better understanding of the material. Crossing the streams, especially to use exploits or dips only possible through the combination, warps the perception of both products without it actually being the fault of either.

    The two being used together commonly is not the same as the two being made with each other in mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    And that's on those GMs, not the products. People unfamiliar with these will read guides, like this one, to gain a better understanding of the material. Crossing the streams, especially to use exploits or dips only possible through the combination, warps the perception of both products without it actually being the fault of either.

    The two being used together commonly is not the same as the two being made with each other in mind.
    Tell that to the War Shifter, a SoP archetype that grants PoW maneuvers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    In general, this is favorable to the casters.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Tell that to the War Shifter, a SoP archetype that grants PoW maneuvers.
    Which is Drop Dead Studios' affair and none of ours; it's certainly not an argument to include SoP dips in a Zealot guide, a class notably absent of any crossover support.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Which is Drop Dead Studios' affair and none of ours; it's certainly not an argument to include SoP dips in a Zealot guide, a class notably absent of any crossover support.
    I suppose so. Still, we can dream, no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    In general, this is favorable to the casters.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Which is Drop Dead Studios' affair and none of ours; it's certainly not an argument to include SoP dips in a Zealot guide, a class notably absent of any crossover support.
    Once again Gareth, you guys very much have items in Steelforge that are specifically intended to interact with Spheres of Power. You are welcome to continue believing that it doesn't have a place in this Zealot handbook. However, pretending that you guys aren't aware of each other is intellectually dishonest. Although I suppose it could be of the CYA variety, from a legal perspective.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Once again Gareth, you guys very much have items in Steelforge that are specifically intended to interact with Spheres of Power. You are welcome to continue believing that it doesn't have a place in this Zealot handbook. However, pretending that you guys aren't aware of each other is intellectually dishonest. Although I suppose it could be of the CYA variety, from a legal perspective.
    I think that's a very different situation. Steelforge does have some minor items that, if I recall correctly, were some very minor things written in collaboration with DDS, but it's not mixing entire subsystems, just encouraging people to take a look at two different publishers' products. One thing, though, doesn't mean that the companies are suddenly partnered up, nor that we're in active communication or collaboration with each other.

    DSP's stuff, and Path of War in particular, is written to be balanced against itself and Paizo's products. Accounting for Spheres of Power and similar things have never come up the in balance and design discussions we have, because we believe that it's not just dishonest, but dangerous, to mix different 3pps' stuff without heavy collaboration. Spheres of Power is not balanced around Path of War (though it does have some things that interact with it, they were not written by DSP or in collaboration with us beyond a heads-up that they were being written at all). Likewise, Path of War is not balanced against (and, in my opinion, balanced properly with the inclusion of) Spheres of Power.

    Because of this, I think that mixing them and suggesting mixing them without being very careful of what's being mixed (particularly when recommending power-increasing multiclasses) should be done with a fairly large and clear disclaimer that the group out to vet this first. They're products that were not written with the intention of using them together, and as such, many things break or create unpredictable results when this happens.

    One similar thing to note that might help shed some perspective on this: I've started my own 3pp company on the side, and while I do go to my friends at DSP for assistance with design decisions, my work with the Spellburst Savant and Avowed are certainly not being accounted for in DSP's own materials. I would never expect nor encourage that, unless it was being brought under the DSP umbrella (which the Avowed is not; some later projects might, and those would be written around). Likewise, the Avowed class' options, math, and balance does not account for the intricacies of Path of War, because Path of War being in play creates a different sort of game that in some cases makes designing around it difficult. Do they work together? With care. Would I use them together in a game? Definitely. Would I say that every option in my outside-company work is balanced with every option that DSP has produced? Certainly not.

    While the rules are, ultimately, the final arbiter for how things work on the page, I think that in this case, intent matters significantly. Including sections in the guide on the assumption that the 3pps will be mixed muddles the value of the guide (because the Zealot in an environment without Spheres of Power is very different from one with it), and potentially hurts both companies producing the material, if things interact in overly powerful ways and turn players and GMs off of the system.

    It's not that the subsystems don't have an equal place. It's not that the companies aren't aware of each other (we are). It's that when a handbook is labeled "Path of War," that's a statement about the expectations and material allowed. If it's actually "Path of War, Spheres of Power, and how to mix them with maximum efficiency" (which would be a neat guide to see, if it had disclaimers about the above), that'd be a very different story.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    All that being said, it's way better for E6 games and not Zealot specific. If you do decide to have a footnote for SoP, consider including it. It's generally a pretty good time.
    I haven't had a chance to test out SoP yet, but this is my impression as well. But perhaps you could write a SoP addendum for the guide which Castilonium could link to?

    Personally I'd be very wary of including any non-DSP 3PP material in a guide for a DSP class. In the specific case of SoP, I suspect not primarily because of what Gareth said, but rather because of the many options to rate and the huge number of additional possibilities and combos to consider. Considering how much work it takes just to get the 1PP stuff down and keep it updated, without sharing some of the load I'd feel overwhelmed if I also had to include stuff from a second 3PP. Especially since both DSP and DDS, not to mention Paizo, are pretty active publishers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    WOW! I had no idea I had the MoMS monk so incredibly wrong. But luckily, it's still a purple dip! Thanks for not only fixing my embarrassing mistakes, but also giving me loads more info and suggestions!

    Maybe I'll have another gander at the Paizo style feats and see if any of them are worth nabbing with a MoMS dip and putting in the guide.
    You might wanna check out Ascetic Style (the "effects that augment" part makes this ripe for shenanigans) and perhaps Dragon Ferocity (for US zealots) and Grabbing Style (for fiendbound marauder dippers).

    And while I'm at it...

    Spoiler: More Fixing, Info and Suggestions
    Show
    Weapons, One hander: If you’re a Maenad, you’re proficient with all flails, so pick a scorpion whip for a one-handed reach weapon!
    While you can attack foes both adjacent and up to 15' away with a scorpion whip (as a Maenad), without feats you provoke when using it as a whip (when attacking beyond adjacent). Most importantly, without additional feats, the whip doesn't give you threatening reach (my emphasis): "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack." And RAW, even if you have these feats, regardless of your size or that of your whip it won't ever threaten beyond your natural reach +5', unlike "proper" reach weapons which scale their threatening reach to size (up to your natural reach +30'). All things considered, I don't think any version of whip is a good weapon even for a maenad.


    Weapons, Two hander: So you'd basically want a "flail-on-a-pole" for both EG and SG maneuvers? OK, simply dump the "-on-a-" part, and voila: flailpole!
    2-handed 1d8/x2 with reach and trip, and demands you're a maenad or taking a COWPIS. *giggles*

    (And yeah, the flailpole hasn't yet been sorted into fighter weapon groups. So in the unlikely event someone's GM doesn't see how the name makes the sorting kinda self-explanatory, said GM may consider searching the description - "This is simply a heavy flail mounted on the end of a long polearm." - and perhaps this pic of a RL flailpole for hints... )


    Magic Weapon Enhancements: Dueling (PFSG): Every +1 bonus on your weapon now gives you a total of +3 to a specific combat maneuver.
    It's even better: "When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants..." /snip/ "These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip..." /snip/ "..also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition..." So it doesn't just affect one specific combat maneuver, it boosts all dirty trick, disarm, reposition and trip attempts performed with the weapon (and all corresponding CMD values).

    Speaking of, this gets really hilarious when combined with Leveraging and used to trip (or reposition). Yes, RAW they stack, effectively granting from +6 (+1 weapon) up to +30 (+5 weapon) on the CMB check... And for raging zealots adding Furious this trip bonus becomes absolutely insane; from +18 to +42! Talk about power trip...


    Dipping and Multiclassing Are you gonna add PrCs to the guide as well? If so, a rage surge wilder 1 (or more) makes for pretty great dip to go with awakened blade. Besides Cha-based rage, tons of extra PP and easier access to stuff like minor metamorphosis, this combo gives some darn tasty goodies in higher levels, such as free psionic focus regain with maneuver recovery, immediate-to-standard action shenanigans, access to metamorphosis (go Huge or Gargantuan!), and last but not least, (eventually constant) insight bonuses to attack, damage, AC and saves equal to 1/3 of IL.

    (I've actually put together a demoralizing test build with the above combo and a few other dips. Turned out to be very strong although it sacrifices some early level power for high level greatness, but this is mostly a good thing for front-loaded martials IME).

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Stuff
    Yes that's all well and good. Hence why I specifically asked if Castilonium was interested in including Spheres of Power material. At every step I have said that it is entirely reasonable for it not to go in the guide, only posting it in case Castilonium did decide to include it.

    My problem was the way Gareth, in my eyes at least, seemed to imply that mixing third party material was badwrongfun, and that one shouldn't play with both Spheres of Power and Path of War. I found it somewhat rude, as he was totally fine with the inclusion of other third party material specifically by Dreamscarred Press in the form of Akashic Mysteries. Thus it came off to me as a somewhat egotistical statement, although it's entirely likely that wasn't the intention. In any case, I still have the utmost respect for DSP as a whole and all the members of it's crew. Also we've probably taken up far too much space going back and forth about this. So I shall assume that for now at least Castilonium is not going to specifically include SoP material, as mentioned earlier. If someone should wish for my opinion on how to mix that material with most martials for maximum benefit though, I shall offer my knowledge.

    Back on topic, refinement charms for increasing collective members are dirt cheap and potentially useful. Having 20+ members in your collective can be quite nice. Especially very small ones with flying, if you can persuade some birds or pixies to help.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    My problem was the way Gareth, in my eyes at least, seemed to imply that mixing third party material was badwrongfun, and that one shouldn't play with both Spheres of Power and Path of War. I found it somewhat rude, as he was totally fine with the inclusion of other third party material specifically by Dreamscarred Press in the form of Akashic Mysteries.
    FWIW, I didn't feel like there was any badwrongfun attitude in Gareth's posts, only a concern about giving guide readers the wrong perception of stuff from either publisher. Which is a concern I can certainly understand. And of course there's little need to worry about AM or other DSP stuff in this regard, since DSP material is designed to jam well with other/previous DSP material.

    Regardless, I think there may be quite a few people who would appreciate an addendum specifically for SoP options. And again, provided Castilonium is interested, I really do think you seem to be a great candidate for writing it, Leaf!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Back on topic, refinement charms for increasing collective members are dirt cheap and potentially useful. Having 20+ members in your collective can be quite nice. Especially very small ones with flying, if you can persuade some birds or pixies to help.
    That's a pretty nifty spying/assassination trick. But I think it's going to have to wait, and for a good reason IMO:
    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    I don't have other DSP releases like Bloodforge, Steelforge, or Lords of the Night. If I buy them in the future, I'll add material from them to the guide...
    Last edited by upho; 2016-11-30 at 08:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by MilleniaAntares View Post
    boosts do not lock out counters, like much of your guide's language implies.

    Counters lock out boosts. If you use an immediate action, the next round's swift becomes unavailable.
    I think this makes Minute Hand purple. You have language that says that a counter is better, but if you don't use a counter, your swift will be worthless if you don't use it for a boost. I would think that since you can recover your maneuvers (almost) every round, you should always want at least (and maybe at most) 1 boost readied to maximize your action economy for the cases that you didn't use a counter. A great example: you get attacked by 2 mooks but decide not to use your counter in anticipation of being attacked by the BBEG, but he ends up not attacking you. Boosts save the day in that case by not "wasting" your swift action.

    As for why Minute Hand should be purple: at low levels this doubles your attacks for a round (not counting AoO) which is pretty big. It gets slightly less effective at higher levels, but until another boost's damage potential is more beneficial for a round than another attack, this one wins for damage potential. Even if you don't agree, please at least change the text for Minute Hand so it says something more along the lines of "when you haven't used a counter, this is one of the best things you can do" (no bias in there at all... )
    Last edited by PsionMage; 2016-12-01 at 10:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    okay time to stir some nitroglycerin and hope we have potion of eternal life last time I checked dream scared press and drop dead studios has setting called skybourne aka they already working together on some projects and on pathfinder forum guys at drop dead studios asked what kind a next product you want and guess what major part of the treat asked martial expansion on sphere system ( you gonna ask do you have any proof. and yes around January i asked is there and new sphere brewing like blood question on creator of spheres ask me any thing threat and on paizo fofums they said they are developing blood sphere) so i can with good concussion say that we gonna get martial add on / fusion with path of war so lets wait until we have the book shall we
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    okay time to stir some nitroglycerin and hope we have potion of eternal life last time I checked dream scared press and drop dead studios has setting called skybourne aka they already working together on some projects and on pathfinder forum guys at drop dead studios asked what kind a next product you want and guess what major part of the treat asked martial expansion on sphere system ( you gonna ask do you have any proof. and yes around January i asked is there and new sphere brewing like blood question on creator of spheres ask me any thing threat and on paizo fofums they said they are developing blood sphere) so i can with good concussion say that we gonna get martial add on / fusion with path of war so lets wait until we have the book shall we
    Well... Skybourne is Drop Dead Studios' campaign setting, but Dreamscarred Press is completely uninvolved with it. As I noted above, while DSP and DDS have worked together on some small things, most of the stuff that crosses over the subsystems is not collaborated on except for giving the other company a heads up. It's entirely possible that DSP freelancers have worked with DDS freelancers (I've had the good fortune of being able to discuss my own freelance projects with some Spheres people, for example).

    As one of the creative directors at Dreamscarred Press, I can confirm that there are no current plans for any large crossovers between DDS and DSP, particularly involving Path of War. We do know that Drop Dead Studios has been planning their own martial supplement, but even if it involves interactions with Path of War, we at DSP are not involved in it. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how it's done, though, as someone whose group uses DDS content often (and yes, alongside DSP stuff, though we often need to be careful what mixes and how because of accidental balance issues from mixing two unrelated companies' products).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Well... Skybourne is Drop Dead Studios' campaign setting, but Dreamscarred Press is completely uninvolved with it. As I noted above, while DSP and DDS have worked together on some small things, most of the stuff that crosses over the subsystems is not collaborated on except for giving the other company a heads up. It's entirely possible that DSP freelancers have worked with DDS freelancers (I've had the good fortune of being able to discuss my own freelance projects with some Spheres people, for example).

    As one of the creative directors at Dreamscarred Press, I can confirm that there are no current plans for any large crossovers between DDS and DSP, particularly involving Path of War. We do know that Drop Dead Studios has been planning their own martial supplement, but even if it involves interactions with Path of War, we at DSP are not involved in it. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how it's done, though, as someone whose group uses DDS content often (and yes, alongside DSP stuff, though we often need to be careful what mixes and how because of accidental balance issues from mixing two unrelated companies' products).
    well here it is folks from the nearest first party person its official they are working on martial of power book series thanks you forrest for verify my little prediction
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    well here it is folks from the nearest first party person its official they are working on martial of power book series thanks you forrest for verify my little prediction
    I just said that we are not working on anything together with DDS right now. DDS has stated that they're working on a martial book of their own, but their project is unrelated to any of ours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    I just said that we are not working on anything together with DDS right now. DDS has stated that they're working on a martial book of their own, but their project is unrelated to any of ours.
    they may not working together but you just confirm drop dead studios guys are making their own sphere based martial supplement until know we only have theories and bunch of request.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    they may not working together but you just confirm drop dead studios guys are making their own sphere based martial supplement until know we only have theories and bunch of request.
    I didn't confirm that, Adam Meyers did, in the post by him that I linked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    I didn't confirm that, Adam Meyers did, in the post by him that I linked.
    that'S much better looks like Christmas came 30 days early.
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    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    they may not working together but you just confirm drop dead studios guys are making their own sphere based martial supplement until know we only have theories and bunch of request.
    He didn't say anything about it being sphere based. I don't know how you turned "we're doing some martial stuff" into "DSP and DDS are working together on SoP initiating"

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    Quote Originally Posted by exelsisxax View Post
    He didn't say anything about it being sphere based. I don't know how you turned "we're doing some martial stuff" into "DSP and DDS are working together on SoP initiating"
    wild guess but ladies and gentleman one of the after mentioned companies employees. so before we even more rail road the treat I am gonna shut up for a while .
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    The DDS martial project is still in early stages. I can say that making it play nice with PoW is desired and that there are people on the project that are fans of PoW.

    Any issues with the SoP crossover shifter archetype are totally on me, though I haven't heard any issues. Some DSP people have some helpful notes, but it is very explicitly not supported by DSP.
    Last edited by stack; 2016-12-01 at 05:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Guide Update Notes:
    (Disciplines & Maneuvers) Riven Hourglass is complete!
    (Disciplines & Maneuvers) Mithral Current is complete!
    (Style Feats) Added Grabbing Style.
    (Equipment) Added flailpole and tri-point double-edged sword, and clarified things about the scorpion whip.
    (Equipment) Added Furious and Leveraging to weapon enhancements.
    (Disciplines & Maneuvers) Minute Hand rating changed to purple.

    @Mithral Leaf, Thanks for further expounding on that armorist trick. I made some of my friend's craniums asplode by showing it to them . If you decide to write a guide that combines tricks and synergies between SoP and PoW stuff, I'd be happy to add a link to it!

    @PsionMage, Good point, there aren't many good counters for 1st level that you can use on allies reliably. Minute Hand is definitely purple for levels 1 and 2 of your career. But once you get Fear the Reaper, wellllll...

    @upho, Thanks for the equipment suggestions, I've tossed them in! And yes, I will eventually add prestige classes that are particularly useful for Zealots. If you have more recommendations, I'd love to hear them! It's nice that DSP prestige classes are so much better than Paizo prestige classes and are actually worth taking a glance at. Is there any better way to qualify for Awakened Blade than Wilder 2, or Wilder 1 + Expanded Knowledge?

    The thing about Dragon Ferocity is that it only adds more damage. Sure, potentially a ludicrous amount of damage if you size-stack with lots of strength. But anybody can do damage, and like you said earlier, there's a point when more damage is excessive and pointless. You can only use one (or two) style feat chains at the same time, and Zealots don't have any features that interact with damage-stacking feats, so why not just play any of the other innumerable martial classes that do instead if you want to use Dragon Ferocity?

    Ascetic Style looks potentially interesting. You could use a tri-point double-edged sword (a monk group reach weapon with 1d10 damage) and combine it with Dragon Ferocity for oodles of damage, but what else could you do with it that isn't strictly related to damage? I'm hoping there are some nice rider effects you can plop onto unarmed strikes to then use with Ascetic Style.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    And yes, I will eventually add prestige classes that are particularly useful for Zealots. If you have more recommendations, I'd love to hear them!
    Unfortunately I think no other PrC fits particularly well with the zealot specifically, since only the Awakened Blade improves the psionic side as well as the initiator side. Well, aside from the 5-level Animus Adept combined with Awakened Animus, which might be rather OK despite the rather annoying Animus Healing requirement, I guess. But for more niche build types, I think there are a few other interesting options, like the casting/initiation merging PrCs Battle Templar (unfortunately move action dependent) and Bladecaster for primarily oracle or sorcerer MC zealots, and Landsknecht 4 could be pretty good for AoO builds and jams well with Pikeman's Training and Haft Strike (which btw is probably often best gained through a Reverents of the Lance membership).

    I can't think of any of the other psionic PrCs as worth mentioning, except maybe for some weird build which combines say five levels in a more combat oriented such a psionic PrC with one zealot level, four levels of a psionic class and ten levels of Awakened Blade. But I don't really have the fu to give advice about psionic stuff in general, so it's likely I've missed something here.

    And speaking of Martial Traditions, nitpick:
    Path of War and Expanded Feats: Mirror of the Moon "You’d need to both join a martial tradition and take the Unorthodox Method trait."
    Actually, nothing stops you from joining more than one tradition, provided any alignments requirements match. And naturally it's also preferable if the organizations' oaths, general goals and methods are somewhat compatible, unless you (or your GM) intentionally seek the drama likely to occur when the organizations' opposing demands on you finally clash (at which time you're likely to be kicked out of at least one of them). And for example joining both the Stained Glass Champions and The Wayward Path for both SM and VM plus other minor goodies seems to be highly doable without causing any tension. Though such an option is still very dependent on GM fiat, setting and such of course, so YMMV.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Is there any better way to qualify for Awakened Blade than Wilder 2, or Wilder 1 + Expanded Knowledge?
    Not AFAIK, but see above regarding my psionics-fu. Though depending on your goals, I guess going psychic warrior could also be good despite being Wis based, notably since AB advances the psychic warrior's path abilities and you can grab the Pathwalker initiating archetype. The Cha based dread might also work for a scary zealot build with a twist, at least with the Nightmare initiating archetype, though I don't see how your terrors can be made to work on anything but very low CR mooks. However, I think it's important to note both these classes require two levels plus all ten levels of AB before their "Max Power Level" reaches 4th and Expanded Knowledge can be taken for metamorphosis (which can be done two levels earlier with a wilder 1/AB 9 build).

    Speaking of, if you're willing to trade out some Wis for Int, an egoist psion is of course the quickest and easiest way to gain metamorphosis, being the only class which has native access to it and grants already at psion 1/AB 5. But at least for Str based zealots, I think the wilder is preferable, as no other psionic class grants as much from a single level, mostly because of how useful barbarian rage can be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    The thing about Dragon Ferocity is that it only adds more damage. Sure, potentially a ludicrous amount of damage if you size-stack with lots of strength. But anybody can do damage, and like you said earlier, there's a point when more damage is excessive and pointless. You can only use one (or two) style feat chains at the same time, and Zealots don't have any features that interact with damage-stacking feats, so why not just play any of the other innumerable martial classes that do instead if you want to use Dragon Ferocity?
    Finally someone speaking my language!

    Needless to say, I agree. But if you're not as fantastically creative and progressive as you and I , you may very well still believe in the old "martials must do single-target damage"-doctrine, and go for, say, a destruction damage build. And in that case, US with Dragon Ferocity and TWF might just beat every other damage option, especially if combined with a few Thrashing Dragon standard action multi-attack strikes and natural attacks from race and/or items.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Ascetic Style looks potentially interesting. You could use a tri-point double-edged sword (a monk group reach weapon with 1d10 damage) and combine it with Dragon Ferocity for oodles of damage, but what else could you do with it that isn't strictly related to damage? I'm hoping there are some nice rider effects you can plop onto unarmed strikes to then use with Ascetic Style.
    There are. Demoralization with Enforcer is great, since you don't take any penalties to deal nonlethal with IUS. The Giant Fist Gauntlets with Stance of the Thunderbrand are amazing, giving you up to as many AoOs as your Combat Reflexes allows you to make, all triggered off of one single initial melee attack! And yes, that initial melee attack may come from a strike! Add dirty trick and bull rush feats, Seize the Opportunity, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, Wolf Trip and (again) demoralization to really get the control/debuff AoO party going like there's no tomorrow. Who needs full attacks?

    When it comes to suitable monk weapons, I like to think of Ascetic Style as a "budget fiend's grip" for those not interested in a warder dip. So yeah, monk reach weapons will be your good friends. But your best friends will be those that also are double, and you're bound to fall on your knees, presenting a COWPIS in a wayfinder, and ask the Kusarigama to marry you for life! And once the wedding's over and you're starting to settle down, you and your loved one will want to start having little kids, specifically cute little things like Minute Hand and standard action multi-attack Thrashing Dragon strikes (as mentioned above), and/or perhaps a couple of Thrashing Dragon style feats...
    Last edited by upho; 2016-12-04 at 07:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Now you didn't hear it from me, but technically Aasimar can take racial heritage with the scion of humanity alternate trait. Even if they're nonhuman descendants.
    Last edited by Mithril Leaf; 2016-12-04 at 05:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Is there a good, simple way to increase the duration of the mind blades from Sleeping Goddess?

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Guide Update Notes:
    (Disciplines & Maneuvers) Elemental Flux complete!
    (Disciplines & Maneuvers) Shattered Mirror complete!
    (Disciplines & Maneuvers) Added martial traditions.

    @upho, Well! I didn't know that you could take more than one martial tradition. And for free! I wonder how many people have gotten away with cheesing taking as many as they possibly could just for the extra class skills and often times powerful allegiance benefits. Good thing the rules say that the GM has to allow them first.

    Along with Awakened Blade, I was definitely looking at Animus Adept. Applying buffs and debuffs as a free action is exactly what Zealots love! I'm not too convinced about Landsknecht 4, though. Stopping at level 2 seems better. Taking another 2 levels only gives you +5 reach and a 1/day ability, and there are plenty of ways of getting reach. But can't argue with the power of uncanny dodge, never outnumbered, and strength of arms!

    As for the beloved kusarigama, I think that Golden Lion Command would want to get in on some of that action!

    @VoxRationis, there's Riven Hourglass Eternity, but once you can get that, the weapons last 7 rounds. That should be plenty of time to finish a typical combat.

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