Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

[Lord_Gareth]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Elemental Flux complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Shattered Mirror complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Added martial traditions.

@upho, Well! I didn't know that you could take more than one martial tradition. And for free! I wonder how many people have gotten away with cheesing taking as many as they possibly could just for the extra class skills and often times powerful allegiance benefits. Good thing the rules say that the GM has to allow them first.

Along with Awakened Blade, I was definitely looking at Animus Adept. Applying buffs and debuffs as a free action is exactly what Zealots love! I'm not too convinced about Landsknecht 4, though. Stopping at level 2 seems better. Taking another 2 levels only gives you +5 reach and a 1/day ability, and there are plenty of ways of getting reach. But can't argue with the power of uncanny dodge, never outnumbered, and strength of arms!

As for the beloved kusarigama, I think that Golden Lion Command would want to get in on some of that action!

@VoxRationis, there's Riven Hourglass Eternity, but once you can get that, the weapons last 7 rounds. That should be plenty of time to finish a typical combat.

We left that particular bit of RAW open because I didn't want to make fluff statements about your world or game, or how that world or game potentially treats divided loyalties. However, as you note, allegiance benefits are strictly optional for that reason as well.

[Mithril Leaf]

Wow, how did I forget to mention one of the very best purchases for a Zealot?

Reach into your local copy of Seventh Path, and page on over to page 39, then head down to the bottom. You see that power, Scales of Damnation? A nice 4th level spell, it provides some pretty sweet insight bonuses. Then head to the top of the next page and look at the augments. The first one allows you to gain twice your charisma modifier in temporary Power Points as a standard action, which lasts until you give energy. You can increase the spell's duration through taking hit point damage and healing. A Power Stone of this power augmented with 6 PP costs about 1,300 GP. The Zealot is very limited in PP per day and also has a high charisma and access to healing. I'm sure you can do the math.

In case you don't have the book, the playtest is fundamentally unchanged.

And if there is errata, someone please freaking link me to where I can find DSP errata. I'm pretty sure it's a myth.

[TiaC]

This looks like a great guide!

A few little tricks I've found:

Improved Quick Draw allows you to threaten with whips by this text "You are considered to be threatening all squares within reach of your weapon even if it is sheathed".

If Starknives being light weapons is a problem (Maybe you want to use Cornugon Smash), you can use an oversized starknife and have a one-handed weapon for a -2 penalty to attack.

The new Psicrystals Augmented has some great options. The Implanted Psicristal gives you a big initiative boost, a version of see in darkness, telepathy, doubles the personality's benefit and can allow you to shrug off a mind-effecting effect. The psicrystal weapon lets you regain focus whenever you drop an enemy to 0, and Psicrystal Reservoir allows your psicrystal to refocus itself.

If you have a way to hit as a touch attack, an Amulet of the Blooded (Aberrant) will increase your reach. This can easily be gained through veilshaping.

[upho]

Wow, how did I forget to mention one of the very best purchases for a Zealot?

Reach into your local copy of Seventh Path, and page on over to page 39, then head down to the bottom. You see that power, Scales of Damnation? A nice 4th level spell, it provides some pretty sweet insight bonuses. Then head to the top of the next page and look at the augments. The first one allows you to gain twice your charisma modifier in temporary Power Points as a standard action, which lasts until you give energy. You can increase the spell's duration through taking hit point damage and healing. A Power Stone of this power augmented with 6 PP costs about 1,300 GP. The Zealot is very limited in PP per day and also has a high charisma and access to healing. I'm sure you can do the math.

Whoa, sweet! And it seems it's actually even better: "These power points disappear when the power ends", so the TPP don't disappear when you sacrifice hp (like the insight bonuses do). The hp loss is so insignificant you could probably easily keep this going practically forever outside of combat in higher levels. Too bad the TPP "refueling" costs a standard and the other bonuses are insight and thus kinda (or totally) redundant with AB.

Speaking of, how do you bypass the ML 13 gifted blade/conduit/psy-war/tactician requirement (or the DC 33 UMD check)?

[Mithril Leaf]

Whoa, sweet! And it seems it's actually even better: "These power points disappear when the power ends", so the TPP don't disappear when you sacrifice hp (like the insight bonuses do). The hp loss is so insignificant you could probably easily keep this going practically forever outside of combat in higher levels. Too bad the TPP "refueling" costs a standard and the other bonuses are insight and thus kinda (or totally) redundant with AB.

Speaking of, how do you bypass the ML 13 gifted blade/conduit/psy-war/tactician requirement (or the DC 33 UMD check)?

Creation with Psionic Meditation gives you 4*(your level) in healing per round, as basically a move action. So at say, level 4 you can gain 32 HP per two rounds. Alternate giving and taking. You net 7 round for every round you spend, and thus must spend 4 hours or so a day charging your batteries. Buy a horse or something.

As far as I can tell there's not too easy a way to hit that DC 33 UMD check. However it's not too implausible. A masterwork tool, Dangerously Curious, +3 from Charisma and max ranks gets you to +13 at level 4, which means taking twenty makes it doable. Have a few days of downtime in case you roll some 1s. Note that this is all somewhat costly, but it's not a bad investment in general, as UMD is a good skill to have. Just don't active blindly.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Shattered Mirror complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Veiled Moon complete!
(Path of War & Expanded Feats) Added Improved Quick Draw
(Psionic Feats) Added Psicrystal Reservoir
(Equipment) Added Amulet of the Blooded (Aberrant)

TiaC found me in the google chat room while I was working on the guide, and had a lovely chat with me full of useful advice! Thanks, TiaC <3

Still, I'm not completely sure that Improved Quick Draw lets you threaten with whips. I think the "You are considered to be threatening all squares within reach of your weapon even if it is sheathed" text overrides the general rule that sheathed weapons don't threaten, not the specific rule that whips don't threaten. I don't want to mislead people or sprinkle a bunch of "Ask your GM" notes in the guide, but I put it in this time.

@Mithral Leaf, that's quite an impressive trick! Too bad it really only works with Creation Mission Zealots. I hadn't heard of Seventh Page before, just like I hadn't heard of Psicrystals Augmented until TiaC told me, so thanks for the tip! Who knows, maybe if I put things like this in my guide, it might mean an extra sale or two for DSP. Or it might make some GMs spontaneously combust in horror and forbid PoW or psionics material. I'll think about adding it.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Broken Blade complete!
(Equipment) Added a Discipline Weapon Group Cheat Sheet™.

♪♫ Tis the season to be busy, fa la la la la, la la, la, la~ ♪♫

[Mithril Leaf]

So it might not be specific to the Zealot, but you are wielding both a shield and something else in most cases so consider using greater transforming, training arrows for your weaponry. Both of those are from Inner Sea Intrigue. Page 52. Much of JaronK's Shuriken guide applies.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I don't understand this "gamla-heritage" thing that lets you be Large-sized with Aasimar/Skinwalker/Tiefling races, it's not explained anywhere. Is this using Racial Heritage feat somehow, or some kind of Alter Self effect?

[Elricaltovilla]

I don't understand this "gamla-heritage" thing that lets you be Large-sized with Aasimar/Skinwalker/Tiefling races, it's not explained anywhere. Is this using Racial Heritage feat somehow, or some kind of Alter Self effect?

It comes from this:

Not all aasimar are descended from humans. Aasimars can be born of any intelligent race, though human aasimars are the most common. Aasimars of other races usually exemplify the ideals of beauty and skill as seen by their base race. For example, halfling aasimars are small, beautifully proportioned, and display exceptional grace. Half-orc aasimars are slightly larger and stronger than ordinary orcs, with tough skin and metallic claws and tusks—they are likely to be neutral rather than evil, but still display aggression and incredible combat prowess. Less common humanoids, such as lizardfolk, catfolk, tengus, and others, can also produce aasimars, though given these races’ exotic appearance, members of the more common races may have trouble telling such aasimars apart from their kin.

It should be noted that while any creature that breeds with a celestial may give birth to half-celestial offspring, only humanoids can give birth to aasimars. Thus, while it’s possible to encounter a half-celestial dragon, unicorn, or griffon, any children of such creatures would be either half-celestials or normal members of their race. (And just as often, these less conventional half-celestials are sterile.) When discussing half-celestials and aasimars, it’s important to distinguish them from both true celestials (angels, azatas, agathions, etc.) and simple celestial creatures (creatures with the celestial template, which are themselves denizens of the good-aligned Outer Planes but similar in many ways to their Material Plane counterparts). Most aasimars also have a difficult time getting people to grasp distinctions between celestial types, with common folk erroneously grouping all such beings together as “angels.”

Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely cosmetic. Non-human aasimars do not possess any of the racial abilities of their base race. However, they are usually raised in the same cultural context as other members of their base race, and thus generally adopt the same fighting style as their peers, use the same types of weapons and armor, and study the same skills.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Black Seraph complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Silver Crane complete!
(Paizo Feats) Added Pageant of the Peacock.

@Mithral Leaf, I don't understand how that works. Greater Transformative can't become ammunition, so why would you be able to enchant arrows with it? And you have to enchant 50 arrows with the same thing, so you wouldn't be able to enchant each individual arrow with a different feat for Training, would you? I don't think you can simply craft a single arrow, you have to craft them in batches of 50. Am I mistaken? And could you please link the guide you mentioned?

[upho]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Black Seraph complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Silver Crane complete!
(Paizo Feats) Added Pageant of the Peacock.

Wohoo! Looks nice. A couple of things:

Black Seraph "Note All Black Seraph maneuvers have the [evil] descriptor." "Final Ruling ...but the fact that you have to be Evil to use Black Seraph puts it out of reach of many."
Actually, far from all of the maneuvers have the [evil] tag (like Black Seraph's Glare), and you don't need to be Evil in order to use any of them. You may eventually become Evil if you use those with the tag too often of course, but that's a rather different issue, since by doing Good deeds you may compensate for using those Evil maneuvers and keep your non-Evil alignment. It's also perfectly fine for a Good zealot to get into Black Seraph (though they cannot do so by joining the Black Thorn Knights).

Paizo Feats I think you should add Dirty Fighting to the list. Often considerably better than the alternatives, allowing you to finally get rid of that pesky Int 13 prereq which will otherwise typically keep you from a huge pile of potentially great combat maneuver feats during many levels.

Keep up the great work!

[Powerdork]

And you have to enchant 50 arrows with the same thing, so you wouldn't be able to enchant each individual arrow with a different feat for Training, would you? I don't think you can simply craft a single arrow, you have to craft them in batches of 50. Am I mistaken?

The only mentions of 50-pieces-of-ammunition rules state the base price for a given grade of weapon: "For ammunition, this price is for 50 arrows, bolts, or bullets," then state that "A character can activate the special abilities of 50 pieces of ammunition at the same time, assuming each piece has identical abilities." They do not specify that these items are created separately or in lots of 50, or that they all need to be from the same batch, merely that they must have identical abilities to be activated simultaneously.
So, for instance, a +1 flaming arrow created on the first of the month by the wizard Merasmus is "+1 flaming" for the purposes of activation, not "a +1 flaming arrow created on the first of the month by the wizard Merasmus". The only ambiguity is whether or not a +1 flaming burst arrow crafted on the last day of the last month of the last year is "+1 flaming" given flaming burst functions as flaming. Regardless, you can take a standard action to issue a command word activating up to 50 +1 flaming arrows/bolts/bullets/shuriken, or up to 50 +1 flaming merciful arrows/bolts/bullets/shuriken (or other ammunition types or other item quality sets).

Rules that do not make any claim about how many projectiles you can or must enhance at once: the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat text, the rules for masterwork weapons and projectiles, the rules on CRB 467-468 for what magic weapons are, the rules for magic item creation on CRB 548-549, the rules for creating magic weapons on CRB 551.

In fact, one might argue that though the price given is for 50 magic arrows, the arrows still need to be crafted individually (as that is the rule for crafting magic weapons, and no exception is made), taking a day each per 1000 gp in the arrow's base price (for most lesser magic arrows, 1 day).

[upho]

Nitpicking:

Irongrip Gauntlets "You can wield a bigger weapon and reduce the penalty by 2, minimum 0. A half-giant holding a huge-sized lucerne hammer and manifesting minor metamorphosis with these gloves now deals 6d6 raw weapon damage per swing."
Note that the Irongrip Gauntlets simply reduces the penalty you take for wielding oversized weapons, they don't let you ignore the "handedness-by-size" rules in any way. A Medium sized human still cannot wield a two-handed weapon intended for a creature larger than Medium while wearing these gauntlets, and likewise, a Medium sized half-giant wearing them still cannot wield a two-handed weapon intended for a creature larger than Large. So regardless of these gauntlets, a lucerne hammer in a Large size half-giant's hands still wouldn't be larger than Huge, having a 4d6 damage die. The same enlarged half-giant wearing Irongrip Gauntlets could on the other hand (see what I did there?) wield for example a longsword intended for a Gargantuan creature without taking the normal -2 penalty, but would still need to use both hands in order to do so.

So for a large majority of zealots, these gauntlets are probably a waste of gold. However, a build with a fiendbound marauder dip will absolutely love these, because a fiend's grip is a light reach weapon. Meaning for example aforementioned enlarged half-giant could wield a fiend's grip intended for a Gargantuan creature as a one-handed weapon without penalties, giving him a threatening reach of no less than 30 ft. (10 ft. Large size natural reach + 20 ft. additional reach of Gargantuan sized reach weapon). (Similarly, an enlarged aasimar/tiefling/skinwalker of gamla heritage would net a threatening reach of 35 ft.)

[exelsisxax]

Nitpicking:

Irongrip Gauntlets "You can wield a bigger weapon and reduce the penalty by 2, minimum 0. A half-giant holding a huge-sized lucerne hammer and manifesting minor metamorphosis with these gloves now deals 6d6 raw weapon damage per swing."
Note that the Irongrip Gauntlets simply reduces the penalty you take for wielding oversized weapons, they don't let you ignore the "handedness-by-size" rules in any way. A Medium sized human still cannot wield a two-handed weapon intended for a creature larger than Medium while wearing these gauntlets, and likewise, a Medium sized half-giant wearing them still cannot wield a two-handed weapon intended for a creature larger than Large. So regardless of these gauntlets, a lucerne hammer in a Large size half-giant's hands still wouldn't be larger than Huge, having a 4d6 damage die. The same enlarged half-giant wearing Irongrip Gauntlets could on the other hand (see what I did there?) wield for example a longsword intended for a Gargantuan creature without taking the normal -2 penalty, but would still need to use both hands in order to do so.

So for a large majority of zealots, these gauntlets are probably a waste of gold. However, a build with a fiendbound marauder dip will absolutely love these, because a fiend's grip is a light reach weapon. Meaning for example aforementioned enlarged half-giant could wield a fiend's grip intended for a Gargantuan creature as a one-handed weapon without penalties, giving him a threatening reach of no less than 30 ft. (10 ft. Large size natural reach + 20 ft. additional reach of Gargantuan sized reach weapon). (Similarly, an enlarged aasimar/tiefling/skinwalker of gamla heritage would net a threatening reach of 35 ft.)

How would it benefit a fiendbound marauder at all, seeing as how fiend's grips are manifested at your size only, and deal damage based only on that size? You can't make a 1-handed fiend's grip. Unless you manifest it while gargantuan and you think you can keep it at that size and damage dice even after you downgrade to huge....?

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Iron Tortoise complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Scarlet Throne complete!
(Table of Contents) Moved the How to Keep Track of Everything section up so that it wouldn't be drowned under the huge Disciplines & Maneuvers section.
(Path of War & Expanded Feats) Added Powerful Throw
(Paizo Feats) Added Dirty Fighting
(Paizo Feats) Added Shield Brace
(Paizo Feats) Added Unhindering Shield
(Equipment) Added Greater Transformative and Training weapon enhancements
(Equipment) Added Tempest Shield and Maelstrom Shield
(Equipment) Removed Irongrip Gauntlets. They didn't do what I thought they did.
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Corrected alignment details of Black Seraph.

@upho, thanks for the corrections! But exelsisxax has a point, I don't think you can make a one-handed fiend's grip.

@Metool, I feel dirty.

[upho]

How would it benefit a fiendbound marauder at all, seeing as how fiend's grips are manifested at your size only, and deal damage based only on that size? You can't make a 1-handed fiend's grip. Unless you manifest it while gargantuan and you think you can keep it at that size and damage dice even after you downgrade to huge....?

@upho, thanks for the corrections! But exelsisxax has a point, I don't think you can make a one-handed fiend's grip.

Short version of my interpretation:

Q: Does wearing a pair of Irongrip Gauntlets affect which size of spiked gauntlets I'm capable of wielding without penalties?
A: Yes.

Q: Does anything affecting the spiked gauntlets I'm wearing not affect my fiend's grips?
A: No (not unless explicitly saying so).

Longer version RAW (my emphasis):

A fiend’s grip is treated as a spiked gauntlet for the purposes Weapon Focus, being discipline weapon for a discipline, and similar feats and abilities. A fiendbound marauder is always proficient in her fiend’s grip.

A fiend’s grip is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It is also considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, affecting incorporeal creatures, and similar effects.

When attacking with her fiend’s grip, the fiendbound marauder may apply any magical properties and enhancement bonus of the gauntlet or spiked gauntlet that fiend’s grip used as a focus to her attacks. She can also treat a fiend’s grip as being made of the special material of the gauntlet or spiked gauntlet used as a focus. For example, a fiendbound marauder wearing a +1 flaming gauntlet and a +2 adamantine defending gauntlet would grow a +1 flaming fiend’s grip and a +2 adamantine defending fiend’s grip.

The first bold sentence is pretty darn all-encompassing IMO. And considering the fiend's grip even gains the special material properties of the gauntlet acting as a focus, I think it's pretty safe to say it also gains the size of said gauntlet.

Or do you think a half-giant's powerful build trait is effectively useless with fiend's grip?

That said, I can see there's a small room for another interpretation. Perhaps it's time to ask the author?

[exelsisxax]

None of that supports the idea that you can acquire larger fiend's grips. You also didn't quote the actual important part.

A fiend’s grip is a light weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning or slashing damage (for a Medium-sized wielder).

Fiend's grips are light weapons. Doesn't matter what gauntlets you have, because fiend's grips don't gain the size or damage of gauntlets. They're light weapons that deal damage based on the wielder's size. So yes, powerful build is useless for fiend's grip.

[upho]

None of that supports the idea that you can acquire larger fiend's grips. You also didn't quote the actual important part.

But the part you emphasized is just as (ir)relevant as it would be if discussing any light weapon. The actually relevant part that may support your interpretation is limited to one single word in parenthesis (my emphasis):

A fiend’s grip is a light weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning or slashing damage (for a Medium-sized wielder).

Change that single word to "weapon" or "fiend's grip" or "gauntlet used as focus" and whatever tiny support there was is gone. And when considering the parenthesis is most likely only there to clarify the damage die size (as normal), that the primary purpose of the sentence is likely to state the basic standard weapon properties of a fiend's grip, including no special rules applying to fiend's grips only (such as limiting the handedness more than the general weapon size rules do), and the fact that treating that single word in parenthesis as a slight error would make the mechanics explained by this sentence jam much better with the rest of the RAW, I didn't find this part to be of much help at all.

If you doubt me or don't understand what I'm trying to say here, let me illustrate by applying the very same sentence to the subject of a spiked gauntlet:

"A spiked gauntlet is a light weapon that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage (for a Medium-sized wielder)."

Now can you please point out to me exactly what in that sentence makes you believe a spiked gauntlet is always treated as a light weapon? And while you're at it, please also show me why this spiked gauntlet can never be wielded by a creature of a size different from that which the gauntlet was intended for, unlike other weapons?

However, regardless of your answers, I think the fact that the RAW lacks anything which conclusively and explicitly states exactly what dictates a fiend's grip size makes the mentioned one single word more interesting when trying to decipher the RAI. Which is why I included this sentence in my post asking about this issue in the Dreamscarred Press FAQ thread (which I hope and believe was phrased in a neutral manner).

Fiend's grips are light weapons. Doesn't matter what gauntlets you have, because fiend's grips don't gain the size or damage of gauntlets.

Fiend's grips are light weapons just as much as for example spiked gauntlets, daggers, short swords or claws are light weapons. That is, they are light weapons and treated as such when wielded by a creature of the size the weapons where intended for. But if any "effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons" would make a fiend's grip being treated as something other than a light weapon by a particular wielder, then said fiend's grip certainly is treated as something other than a light weapon when said effects are applied.

The effects of a Medium sized creature wearing Irongrip Gauntlets or having powerful build enabling the wielding of a Large light weapon without penalties are examples of such "effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons". Likewise, the effects of an Amulet of Mighty Fists, a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes and a (spiked) gauntlet all apply to a fiend's grip, and this may for example include all the special properties a monk of the silver fist may apply to gauntlets (increased damage, treated as buckler and adding enhancement to shield bonus etc).

This is an example of what I meant by "all-encompassing" in my previous post, which, to clarify, was specifically referring to the "effects that enhance or improve" part of the RAW also quoted above.

(As an aside, this wording is in all respects relevant to this discussion the same as that of Ascetic Style and that of the original Feral Combat Training. The author of the former (Alexander Augunas) has named it "the BIGGEST MISTAKE EVER" and the latter was seriously nerfed, in both cases specifically because of the all-encompassing nature of the wording "effects that augment". Which for example has been confirmed in an old FAQ entry to make the monk's unarmed strike damage progression apply to natural attacks with the original FCT, and now has those effects apply to weapons with Ascetic Style. This hopefully illustrates just how all-encompassing the wording is, and though the mechanical impact of the wording currently isn't as major in the case of the fiend's grip as in the mentioned US related cases AFAICT, the same principle is true: if anything makes things in category X, Y or Z better it also makes specific thing A better.)

They're light weapons that deal damage based on the wielder's size.

So any properties outside of damage which are normally affected by size would still change as per the normal rules for changing a weapon's size? And ALL fiend's grips EVER are light weapons, regardless of the size of the wielder or that of his/her gauntlets used as foci? If so, then I fully agree with everything besides perhaps the damage die size, but that's frankly such a minor thing it's barely worth the time to discuss IMO.

So yes, powerful build is useless for fiend's grip.

Why? You just said the fiend's grip damage was only affected by the wielder's size, which has nothing to do with any other properties affected by weapon size (such as the additional weight, hp, cost and added reach of a larger gauntlet/fiend's grip). And fiend's grips being light weapons always, regardless of their size, doesn't change the fact a certain creature may treat a certain fiend's grip as something other than a light weapon for some intents and purposes.

Besides provoking snark (which is perfectly fine by me and hopefully you too) and applying some kind of special snowflake rule regarding size and handedness that isn't supported by the RAW, I think your interpretation has some pretty weird effects. While a Medium sized wielder using a Large mundane spiked gauntlet as a focus would still manifest a Medium fiend's grip, this suddenly wouldn't necessarily be true if the gauntlet's size happened to be the result of magic, since "the fiendbound marauder may apply any magical properties of the gauntlet that fiend’s grip used as a focus". For example, if the same Medium sized wielder used an initially Medium gauntlet made Large via a (permanent) resize item spell as a focus, the manifested fiend's grip would also be Large, because...? Magic?

Likewise, powerful build wouldn't apply but strong jaw would, because...? Magic?

And in the case of Large Irongrip Gauntlets worn by a Medium wielder, the RAW clearly states both the effects that enhance manufactured/natural weapons and the magic properties of the Irongrip Gauntlets are applied to/inherited by the fiend's grip(s), but according to your interpretation, the effects that were enhancing the gauntlets would disappear and the magic properties inherited would become useless in this particular case.

In short, I think your interpretation seems to have little support in the current RAW, and it's implementation appears to cause needlessly convoluted and complicated effects which deviate from the general rules and further increase the gap between magic and mundane, for no specific reasons or gains in terms of reflecting the flavor or improving any aspect of the mechanics (fun, playability, balance, whatever). But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

....

Out of curiosity, if a fiendbound marauder uses say a pair of adamantine Giant Fist Gauntlets as a focus for her fiend's grips, does activating the gauntlets' magic to "expand her hands to twice normal size and harden to the consistency of hardwood", which applies effects to "hits with an unarmed strike or natural attack using her enlarged hands" affect her hits with her fiend's grips in any way according to you? If so, how and why? (This is a serious question I'm not absolutely certain how to answer myself, and I'm genuinely interested in hearing your take on this.)

[Powerdork]

@Metool, I feel dirty.

Yeah, this is how core Pathfinder makes me feel, too.

[exelsisxax]

Upho, a ton of that has no real relevance to fiend's grips. The RAW is clear: fiend's grips are light weapons appropriate for your size. They don't inherit size or damage from gauntlets in any way. They do inherit magical properties, enhancement bonus, and special materials from the gauntlet, and nothing else. Since the size of the gauntlet is none of those, the size of the gauntlet makes no difference whatsoever to the fiend's grip.

Assuming medium wielder:
Large gauntlets do nothing.
A large gauntlet of Impact causes the fiend's grip to deal damage as if it were large, because of impact.
A medium gauntlet with resize item does nothing, because resize item isn't a magical weapon property.
Enlarge person causes the fiend's grip to deal damage as a large fiend's grip, because it is large.
Strong jaw causes fiend's grips to deal damage as if it were two sizes larger, because fiend's grips are treated like nat weapons and strong jaw effects the entire creature.

The RAW is clear and nothing you've come up with so far actually appears to have any inconsistency.

[upho]

Upho, a ton of that has no real relevance to fiend's grips. The RAW is clear: fiend's grips are light weapons appropriate for your size.

Ok, I'm gonna try taking it from the very beginning and as clearly as I can. Please follow these steps:

1. Forget all about the size of a wielded gauntlet affecting the size of a fiend's grip for now. That is a separate issue which has little bearing on why I find your interpretation problematic.
2. Show me the RAW which states fiend's grips are manifested as "weapons appropriate for your size". Again, the bold part is what I need help with; I can already see the RAW clearly states a fiend's grip is a light weapon.
3. Show me the RAW which states #2 is true regardless of other circumstances (like, say, whether the FM in question actually would prefer to manifest fiend's grips of another size).

Personally, I can't find anything in the fiend's grip RAW which deals with points #2 or #3. In fact, I can't even find anything in the fiend's grip RAW which regulates the size of a manifested fiend's grip in any way!

Once you've helped me out, we may hopefully continue on our little quest for enlightenment.

[exelsisxax]

Ok, I'm gonna try taking it from the very beginning and as clearly as I can. Please follow these steps:

1. Forget all about the size of a wielded gauntlet affecting the size of a fiend's grip for now. That is a separate issue which has little bearing on why I find your interpretation problematic.
2. Show me the RAW which states fiend's grips are manifested as "weapons appropriate for your size". Again, the bold part is what I need help with; I can already see the RAW clearly states a fiend's grip is a light weapon.
3. Show me the RAW which states #2 is true regardless of other circumstances (like, say, whether the FM in question actually would prefer to manifest fiend's grips of another size).

Personally, a can't find anything in the fiend's grip RAW which deals with points #2 or #3. In fact, I can't even find anything in the fiend's grip RAW which regulates the size of a manifested fiend's grip in any way!

Once you've helped me out, we may hopefully continue on our little quest for enlightenment.

I'll make this more precise then.

Fiend's grips don't have real sizes. Like a bite attack or a lightning bolt, it does not have a size. You can't manifest an oversized fiend's grip because there is no such thing. Like natural attacks, it deals damage based on your size. Like natural attacks and manufactured weapons, it can deal damage as if its size were larger, but like natural weapons, that effective size is purely for damage purposes and does not exist as a quality of the weapon or attack.

"RAW doesn't say you can't" isn't a good argument. RAW says what you can do with a fiend's grip, and what you suggest isn't in it.

[upho]

I'll make this more precise then.

Fiend's grips don't have real sizes. Like a bite attack or a lightning bolt, it does not have a size. You can't manifest an oversized fiend's grip because there is no such thing. Like natural attacks, it deals damage based on your size. Like natural attacks and manufactured weapons, it can deal damage as if its size were larger, but like natural weapons, that effective size is purely for damage purposes and does not exist as a quality of the weapon or attack.

Seems absolutely clear to me. And I would've agreed 100% with you if not for the fact that literally nothing you've written here is actually supported by the RAW. In detail:

1. "Fiend's grips don't have real sizes."
Where is the RAW to support this notion? Seems to me the RAW is silent on this subject. (Although the rules undoubtedly include a number of more or less fuzzy "hints" regarding the RAI.)


2. "Like a bite attack or a lightning bolt, it does not have a size."
See #1 above. And judging from what the RAW does say, it appears to me a fiend's grip is actually more similar to a manufactured weapon than to a natural attack. For example, they have weapon material properties (which natural attacks don't have), they aren't a part of your body (which natural attacks are), they are used with TWF rules (which natural weapons aren't), they gain iteratives (which natural weapons don't), and the RAW spell out all properties - such as reach, crit range and crit multiplier - just like other rules for manufactured weapons normally do (which rules for natural attacks normally don't as they typically only include any exceptions to the general rules for natural attacks).

More specifically, it might be worth noting one of the properties listed is the light weapon "effort/handedness" designation you've frequently mentioned, another is the mentioned 20 crit range, and yet another is the x2 crit multiplier. All these are properties shared by all standard natural attacks, and are therefore details for which there is no reason to repeat in the RAW (and most likely wouldn't have been included) if a fiend's grip actually was a natural attack. So why exactly are you so certain a fiend's grip has "no size" and is more similar to a lightning bolt or a bite attack, when almost nothing seems to agree with that claim and a lot disagrees with it.

Anyway, while my views on this may be accurate extrapolations of what actually is found in the RAW, the sad fact remains that there are other possibilities and that the RAW offer no truly conclusive information on the matter.


3. "You can't manifest an oversized fiend's grip because there is no such thing."
Again, I find nothing in the RAW which supports your claim, and again nothing which conclusively excludes it (at best potentially accurate extrapolations of what is found in the RAW). I'm starting to wonder whether you have a different and considerably more detailed version of the MF than what can be found in my copy of PoW:E or on d20pfsrd.com... Please help me out and show me the RAW I obviously keep missing!


4. "Like natural attacks, it deals damage based on your size."
Yep, you guessed it, I would indeed like to see the RAW which gave you this idea. The only thing which could possibly suggest this is true in the MF rules I can find is the aforementioned "wielder" in parenthesis, and again the very same rules unfortunately include plenty of suggestions to the contrary.


5. "Like natural attacks and manufactured weapons, it can deal damage as if its size were larger, but like natural weapons, that effective size is purely for damage purposes and does not exist as a quality of the weapon or attack."
I'm not gonna repeat myself again. But if what you're saying here is true, then why don't the RAW simply say something like "a fiend's grip functions as a natural attack but with the exceptions detailed here"? Also, if you're correct in everything you've said, then why are the RAW full of seemingly contradictory or needlessly complicated details and aren't adhering to the standards PoW:E and other DSP publications otherwise follow? Don't you honestly find it even the slightest suspicious that there are so many little things which simply don't read the way they ought to if you were correct?

And this is of course on top of what really should make for an ear-piercing alarm telling you something is very wrong, namely that the RAW simply don't say anything to suggest your claims are true.

Hence, I'm afraid your statements will remain nothing but your opinions/wishes/fantasies/guesses until you start posting actual RAW quotes supporting your claims.

"RAW doesn't say you can't" isn't a good argument. RAW says what you can do with a fiend's grip, and what you suggest isn't in it.

Funny how I'd say you are the one claiming all sorts of things which the RAW simply don't...


But perhaps we can agree the RAW don't say anything conclusively on the matter of possible fiend's grip sizes?

[soulsabre345]

So, read through the guide, and It's quite helpful indeed. And showed a few things that I didn't quite realize I could do, which is always good XD.

So, my question, is I'm playing a bit of an odd zealot, so would you have any suggestions for interesting ways to improve a natural attacking zealot? Currently playing a 3pp dragon race, (Taninim) that gets scaling size increases every 5 levels or so, including a bite / gore natural attack with 5' more reach. (For anyone with the book, using the Draconic hero racial archtype, modified to work on a zealot.)

Also, I'm also in the camp of what exactly is gamla-blooded? Yes, I understand it for assimars, which just persists the size of the base race, but how does that transfer to the galma?

[Castilonium]

So, read through the guide, and It's quite helpful indeed. And showed a few things that I didn't quite realize I could do, which is always good XD.

So, my question, is I'm playing a bit of an odd zealot, so would you have any suggestions for interesting ways to improve a natural attacking zealot? Currently playing a 3pp dragon race, (Taninim) that gets scaling size increases every 5 levels or so, including a bite / gore natural attack with 5' more reach. (For anyone with the book, using the Draconic hero racial archtype, modified to work on a zealot.)

Also, I'm also in the camp of what exactly is gamla-blooded? Yes, I understand it for assimars, which just persists the size of the base race, but how does that transfer to the galma?

I'm glad you find the guide helpful

Natural attack builds are best with full attacks, which I discourage a lot in my guide, because other classes are better suited for it, and refreshing your maneuvers is a move action with a powerful bonus. However, once I finish writing the ratings for Primal Fury, I'll have a foundation to base natural attack analysis on, since Primal Fury has some strikes that let you make full attacks as a standard action. You can focus on using those, add on a boost, refresh them every round, and do a good job of obliterating everything you meet. I'll start making sample builds at the end of the guide once I'm done with all of the disciplines.

Gamla-blooded or gamla-heritage means that you're playing an aasimar, tiefling, or skinwalker who has one gamla parent and one angel/fiend/lycanthrope parent. Or two gamla parents and celestial/fiendish/lycanthropic ancestry somewhere in the family tree. You are an aasimar/tiefling/skinwalker in every way with all of the associated racial features and stats and whatnot. The only difference is that you look like a gamla and are large instead of medium. I'll make that part in the race section of my guide more clear.

[soulsabre345]

Well, the full attack route isn't as important to me because I'm mostly using a single attack atm for most things, the bite that has extended reach. So, i'm more looking for ways to achieve boosting a single natural attack than the group as a whole. The DM has already okayed that you can get items that boost a single natural attack the same way you can boost a manufactured weapon. Which, admitted, isn't optimal, but it's also a way for me to get 1.5x str on a reach weapon and use a shield XD.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Primal Fury complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Steel Serpent complete!
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Thrashing Dragon complete!

All 20 disciplines ARE COMPLETE! Next on the chopping block is the sample builds, and I plan to take a look at Unquiet Grave from Lords of the Night, and Chimera Soul from Lords of the Wild.

@soulsabre345, Take a peek at Scarlet Throne. It has very good boosts for single attacks like Regal Blade and Noble Blade. It also has some ludicrously high damage strikes like Rising Zenith Strike and Ruby Zenith Strike. Use power attack to make them more crazy.

[upho]

All 20 disciplines ARE COMPLETE!

Hurray!

Next on the chopping block is the sample builds, and I plan to take a look at Unquiet Grave from Lords of the Night, and Chimera Soul from Lords of the Wild.

And maybe PrCs?

Here's a potential contribution to the sample builds from me: "Nelly Nephilim" (she's an aasimar who "falls"), an awakened blade build using several of the top options/combos mentioned in your guide, and a few additional ones stolen from a warder BBEG NPC I made for my current home game. I believe Nelly has extremely effective defender/support mechanics in especially the latter half of her career, but I suspect many of them are unfortunately also everything but simple to decipher from build summaries and level progression outlines. So if you're interested in putting her in your guide, I should probably write a section explaining how everything comes together and all the various shenanigans she's capable of pulling off in combat.

(And if anyone wonders about the latest level combos/options, yes, I deliberately delayed those very powerful ones (like metamorphosis, Soulless Gaze and Dirty Trick Master) until the very highest levels. My idea was this might turn them into sort of capstones (replacing those Nelly misses by being everything but single-classed), instead of simply making Nelly OP during lower levels.)

Spoiler: Nelly Nephilim - 10th Level Summary

Show

The following details Nelly while she is raging, in the stances of Black Seraph Style and Stance of the Inner Eye, and affected by Time Skitter and enlarge person (cast from her wand by party member).

Angel-Blooded Aasimar Monk (Monk of the Silver Fist) 1/Wilder 1/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder Ordained Defender) 1/Warlord (Privateer) 1/Zealot 4/Awakened Blade 2
NG Huge female humanoid outsider (human, native, psionic)

Initiative +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Perception +5
Aura as 1st level Neutral Good cleric


DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 11, flat-footed 23; +3 profane vs scared*; +1 dodge vs traps (11 armor, 1 natural, 4 shield, 1 deflection, 3 insight, 1 dodge, -2 size, -2 rage)
HP 107 (8+1d12+7d10+1d8 hit dice, 40 Con, 6 Psionic Body, 4 favored class)
Fort +20, Ref +10, Will +20; +3 profane vs scared*; +1 dodge to Reflex vs traps
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
Defensive Abilities Black Seraph Style, living bastion, Lurker in Darkness, situational awareness
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy


OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee nephilim's grip +23/+23/+18 and solstice's grip +23 (3d6+17 nonlethal, +1d6 precision, plus demoralize and grab)
or unarmed strikes +21/+21/+21/+16 (1d8+16 nonlethal, +1d6 precision, plus demoralize)
Space 15 ft., Reach 20 ft., 35 ft. with fiend's grips (30 ft., 45 ft. while using defensive focus)
Special Attacks Enforcer (Intimidate +22), grab (CMB +34)

Special Abilities
Attacks of Opportunity 3/round, attack +25 (hit effects as nephilim's grip), or combat maneuver
Collective Nelly and 5 allies, 140' range, members can communicate telepathically
Dastardly Gambit swift, +6 luck to dirty trick attempt; on success allies in 30' recover 1 and gain +4 morale to damage vs target for 1 round
Dazzling Gambit when successfully performing a Dastardly Gambit, Nelly may make a demoralize attempt vs all enemies within 30' as a free action
Echoes of Steel when initiating maneuver of max 4th level: Nelly can spend 1 PP/maneuver level to grant ally in collective maneuver for 1 min.
Martyrdom 1/round when ally in collective takes damage: Nelly may transfer up to 20 damage and reduce by -3/PP spent, up to -12 (not below 1)
Zeal on strike hit or using Aid Another to recover maneuvers, allies in collective gain +1 morale to attack for 1 round

Wilder Surge and Powers 34 PP/day, ML 4 (5 using wild surge)
Raging Surge barbarian rage 13 rounds/day, wild surge +1 (psychic enervation 15%, -3 hp)
1st defensive precognition, offensive precognition

Awakened Blade and Zealot Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Charisma
Stances Iron Pikeman’s Attitude^PT3, Riven Hourglass Stance^RH3, Stance of the Inner Eyeactive
Boosts Time Skitter^RH3 active, 3 rounds remaining
Counters Relativity Burst^RH5, Temporal Body Adjustment^RH4
Strikes zeal on hit: Thrashing Dragon Twist^TD5
Recovery move: recovers 4 maneuvers with Aid Another for +4 to attack, or +5 to AC or skill check, zeal activated
Known Grasp of the Goddess, Piercing Strike, Reactive Reversion, Thunderous Fall

Spoiler: Monk, Warder and Warlord Stances and Maneuvers

Show

Monk Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 5, Wisdom
Stances Lesson II: Control^FE1
Boosts Minute Hand^RH1
Counters Iron Shell^IT1
Strikes zeal on hit: One-Two Punch^FE1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers, moves up to speed, grants adjacent ally +5 insight to AC and saves for 1 round

Warder Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 5, Wisdom
Stances Black Seraph's Glare^BS1
Counters Clockwatcher^RH1, Spilled Salt^CR1
Strikes zeal on hit: Flurry Strike^BB1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers, defensive focus for +15' reach, CMD 72 vs Acrobatics checks to avoid AoO
Known Guard’s Oath, Terrifying Blow

Warlord Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 5, Charisma
Stances Inner Sphere Stance^TD1
Boosts Encouraging Roar^GL1, Leaping Dragon^TD1
Strikes zeal on hit: Hunting Party^GL1, Swift Claws^TD1
Recovery full-round: recovers 6 maneuvers, demoralize vs all enemies in 30'
Known Tactical Strike, Whirlwind Sweep

STATISTICS
Str 30, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 18 (20-point buy)
Bab +9; CMB +26 (using fiend's grip +30, dirty trick and grapple +34); CMD 35 (dirty trick 37)

Feats Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy, Psionic Knack), Black Seraph Style, Combat Reflexes^B, Deep Focus^B, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)^B, Greater Dirty Trick^B, Improved Dirty Trick^B, Improved Shield Bash^B, Improved Unarmed Strike^B, Intimidating Prowess, Lurker in Darkness^B, Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting^B, Psionic Body^B, Psionic Meditation, Seize the Opportunity^B, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)^B

Skills Acrobatics +8, Autohypnosis +9, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (martial, psionics) +4

Alternate Racial Traits Gamla Heritage (Large size), Scion of Humanity, Variant Ability (+2 Wisdom)
Traits Adopted (Helpful), Blade of Mercy, Practiced Initiator (zealot), Psionic Knack (wilder)
Martial Tradition Lords of the Wheel (Riven Hourglass)

Gear nephilim's grip (+1 training (Enforcer) spiked gauntlet), solstice's grip (+1 training (Seize the Opportunity) spiked gauntlet), furious amulet of mighty fists, +2 plate of +1 natural armor and protection¹, pauldrons of resistance +2¹, belt (+4 Str, +2 Con)¹, mask (+2 Cha)¹, bracelet of charms², 5 charms of anger², cracked dusty rose prism, wand of enlarge person, 1,250 gp (remainder of 62,000 gp standard WBL)
1 Uses variant item rules from Steelforge (no stacking costs of "big six" or skill competence bonuses to (any) slotted item).
2 Item from Steelforge.

Spoiler: 10th Level Values

Show

ABILITY SCORES 20-point buy
Str 30 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 4 enhancement belt, 2 size enlarge person, 4 rage
Dex 10 12 base, -2 size enlarge person
Con 18 14 base, 4 rage
Int 7 7 base
Wis 14 12 base, 2 race
Cha 18 14 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement mask


DEFENSE VALUES
AC 27, touch 11, flat-footed 25 (10 + 11 armor (+2 plate), 1 natural enhancement (armor), 1 shield (shielding fist), 3 shield enhancement (fiend's grips enhancement, shielding fist), 1 deflection (+1 armor of protection), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Fort +20 (4 Con, 1 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 warlord, 4 zealot, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Ref +10 (1 awakened blade, 2 monk, 1 zealot, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter))
Will +20 (2 Wis, 1 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 wilder, 4 zealot, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2 morale (rage))

CMD
Base CMD 35 (10 + 9 bab, 10 Str, 1 Dex, 1 deflection (+1 armor of protection), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter), 2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Dirty Trick 37 (35 base CMD, 2 Improved Dirty Trick)


OFFENSE VALUES
Reach 20 ft. / 35 ft. with fiend's grips (15 Huge size (Large race, enlarge person), 5 living bastion / 15 Huge reach weapon)

Attack and Damage
Fiend's Grips Attack Bonus +25 (9 bab, 10 Str, 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon), 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 haste (Time Skitter), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person))
Unarmed Strike Attack Bonus +23 (25 as fiend's grips above except: -1 no Weapon Focus, -1 enhancement (only furious weapon))
Fiend's Grips Damage Bonus +17; +1d6 precision (10 Str, 3 enhancement, 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 Blade of Mercy; 1d6 Stance of the Inner Eye)
Unarmed Strike Damage Bonus 16; +1d6 precision (as fiend's grips above except 2 enhancement)
Fiend's Grip Damage Die 3d6 (1d8 Medium size -> 2d6 Large size (race size) -> 3d6 Huge size (enlarge person))

CMB
Base CMB +26 (9 bab, 10 Str, 3 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 haste (Time Skitter), 2 size (Large race, enlarge person))
Using Fiend's Grips +30 (26 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon))
Dirty Trick +34 (30 as fiend's grips, 4 Improved and Greater Dirty Trick)
Grapple +34 (30 as fiend's grips, 4 grab)


MISCELLANEOUS VALUES
Initiative +2 (1 insight (situational awareness), 1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))

Manifesting and Rage
Wilder ML 4 2 powers known of max 1st level (1 wilder, 1 awakened blade, 2 trait)
Power Points 34/day (17 wilder/awakened blade (11 level, 6 Cha), 13 zealot (5 level, 8 Cha), 4 Sleeping Goddess (3 highest level, 1 other known))
Rage 13 rounds/day for +4 morale to Str and Con (3 + 1 wilder, 4 Cha, 5 charms of anger; +4 Str/+4 Con rage)

Skills
Total Skill Ranks 20 (10 levels x (4 class, -2 Int))
Acrobatics +8 (5 ranks, 3 class skill)
Autohypnosis +9 (4 ranks, 3 class skill, 2 Wis)
Intimidate +22 (5 ranks, 3 class skill, 4 Cha, 10 Str (Intimidating Prowess))
Knowledge (martial, psionics) +4 (3 ranks, 3 class skill, -2 Int)

Magic Weapon Costs and Abilities
Nephilim's Grip 8,000 gp (+1 enhancement, training (Enforcer) (+1 cost))
Solstice's Grip 8,000 gp (+1 enhancement, training (Seize the Opportunity) (+1 cost))
Amulet of Mighty Fists 4,000 gp (furious (+1 cost))

Spoiler: Nelly Nephilim - 20th Level Summary

Show

The following details Nelly while she is raging, in the stances of Black Seraph Style and Lesson VI: Supremacy with Stance of Thunderbrand, and affected by banshee’s hearing, heartbinding, metamorphosis, Time Skitter and applicable spells from her wands (listed in the Gear section below).

Angel-Blooded Aasimar Monk (Monk of the Silver Fist) 1/Wilder 1/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder Ordained Defender) 1/Warlord (Privateer) 1/Zealot 6/Awakened Blade 10
N Gargantuan female humanoid outsider (human, native, psionic)

Initiative +16; Senses blindsight 60 ft. (not vs creatures w/o heartbeat), darkvision 60 ft., Perception +33
Aura Black Seraph Annihilation 30 ft. (enemies lose immunity to fear, those immune to mind-affecting gain +5 vs fear), and as 1st level Neutral cleric


DEFENSE
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 39; +5 profane vs scared*; +5 dodge vs traps (14 armor, 8 natural, 8 shield, 2 Dex, 5 deflection, 6 insight, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
HP 290; staggered at -1 to -31 hp (8+1d12+17d10+1d8 hit dice, 160 Con, 12 Psionic Body, 6 favored class; 6 zealot levels, 26 Con)
Fort +34, Ref +22, Will +35; +5 profane vs scared*; +5 dodge to Reflex vs traps
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 15
Defensive Abilities Black Seraph Style, defiance, Diehard, heartbinding, living bastion, Lurker in Darkness, situational awareness, uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge
Weakness damned (unaffected by breath of life and raise dead, non-evil caster must make DC 30 caster level check to bring Nelly back from death)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy


OFFENSE
Speed 70 ft., fly 90 ft.
Melee nephilim's grip +45/+45/+40/+35/+30 and solstice's grip +45 (8d6+30 nonlethal, +2d6 precision, plus bull rush, cruel, demoralize, lock, grab and constrict)
Space 20 ft., Reach 35 ft., 55 ft. with fiend's grips (50 ft., 70 ft. while using defensive focus)
Special Attacks bull rush (CMB +64 best of 2 rolls), constrict (2d6+30 nonlethal, +2d6 precision plus demoralize), cruel weapon 4/round (scared* sickened on hit, 5 THP if target knocked unconscious or killed), Enforcer (Intimidate +59), grab (CMB +62), lock on hit 1/round and on any AoO hit (Reflex DC 38, adjacent enemy only)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy

Special Abilities
Attacks of Opportunity 6/round, triggered by any movement from threatened space, +47 attack (hit effects as nephilim's grip), or combat maneuver
Clairsentient Counter immediate when Nelly risks being affected by attack/spell/power/ability: may expend a maneuver and psionic focus to gain a standard or move action
Collective Nelly and 8 allies, 160' range, members can communicate telepathically, Nelly can use personal range power on member by expending psionic focus and +4 PP
Dastardly Gambit swift, +6 luck to dirty trick attempt; on success Nelly regains psionic focus, allies in 30' recover 1 maneuver and gain +6 morale to damage vs target for 1 round
Dazzling Gambit free when successfully performing a Dastardly Gambit, Nelly may make a demoralize attempt vs. all enemies within 30'
Demoralization enemies in 30' of Nelly lose immunity to fear, foe she demoralizes more than once suffers more severe fear condition instead of +1 round duration
Echoes of Steel when Nelly initiates maneuver of max 8th level, she can spend 1 PP/maneuver level to allow ally in collective initiate maneuver before she recovers it
Gauntlet Slam when Nelly hits with a fiend's grip she can make a bull rush as a free action, and she replaces unarmed strikes granted by maneuvers with fiend's grip attacks
Heartbinding ally in collective gains +1 deflect to AC, +1 resist on saves, Nelly and ally both gain morale bonuses granted to either, and either may save for both vs emotion
Lock free when Nelly hits adjacent enemy with melee 1/round or whenever she hits adjacent with AoO, Reflex DC 38; can drag locked enemies w/o penalties
Martyrdom 1/round when ally in collective takes damage: Nelly may transfer up to 30 damage and reduce it by -3/PP spent, up to -18 (not below 1)
Precognitive Defenses Nelly may expend psionic focus as free action at any time to initiate readied counter (w/o using immediate action)
Zeal when Nelly hits with a strike or uses Aid Another to recover maneuvers, allies in collective gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds

Wilder Surge and Powers 173 PP/day (163 remaining), ML 11 (12 using wild surge)
Raging Surge barbarian rage 22 rounds/day (20 remaining), wild surge +1 (psychic enervation 15%, -11 hp)
4th fold space
3rd banshee’s hearing augment 4 active, 12 h, metamorphosis augment 2 active, 11 min. (+2 size, +3 NA, +10' base land speed, Improved Trip)
2nd heartbinding active, 12 h
1st defensive precognition, offensive precognition

Awakened Blade and Zealot Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 20, Charisma
Stances God of the Hourglass Stance^RH8, Iron Pikeman’s Attitude^PT3, Lesson VI: Supremacy^FE8 active, Riven Hourglass Stance^RH3, Stance of the Inner Eye active , Stance of the Thunderbrand^PT5 active
Boosts Lord of the Pridelands^GL9, Overpowering Optimism^SG6, Time Skitter^RH3 active, 5 rounds remaining
Counters Break the Hourglass^RH9, Oath of Eternity^EG9, Temporal Body Adjustment^RH4
Strikes zeal on hit: Hammer of the Immortal^EG8, Thrashing Dragon Twist^TD5
Recovery move: recovers 6 maneuvers and regains psionic focus; Aid Another for +11 to attack or AC, or +6 to skill check, zeal activated
Known Beat the Clock, Grasp of the Goddess, Grim Guard’s Laughter, Orichalcum Swipe, Sands of Time Hurricane

Spoiler: Monk, Warder and Warlord Stances and Maneuvers

Show

Monk Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Wisdom
Stances Lesson II: Control^FE1
Boosts Minute Hand^RH1
Counters Iron Shell^IT1
Strikes zeal on hit: One-Two Punch^FE1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, moves up to speed, grants adjacent ally +5 insight to AC and saves for one round

Warder Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Wisdom
Stances Black Seraph's Glare^BS1
Counters Guard’s Oath^EG1, Spilled Salt^CR1
Strikes zeal on hit: Flurry Strike^BB1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, defensive focus for +15 ft. reach, CMD 72 vs Acrobatics to avoid AoO
Known Clockwatcher, Terrifying Blow

Warlord Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Charisma
Stances Inner Sphere Stance^TD1
Boosts Encouraging Roar^GL1, Leaping Dragon^TD1
Strikes zeal on hit: Swift Claws^TD1, Whirlwind Sweep^FE1
Recovery full-round: recovers 6 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, demoralize vs enemies in 30 ft.
Known Hunting Party, Tactical Strike

STATISTICS
Str 42, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 13, Wis 20, Cha 22 (20-point buy); Bab +19
CMB +47 (bull rush +64 best of 2 rolls, dirty trick +75, disarm +73, drag +62, grapple +62, reposition +90, steal +49, trip +92)
CMD 65 (bull rush 74, dirty trick 81, disarm 90, drag 72, grapple 67, reposition 100, steal 67, trip 102)

Spoiler: Psychic Weapon Related Offense/Defense Totals

Show

PP Reserve	Enhancement	Grips Atk/Dmg/Shld	B. Rush B/D	D. Trick B/D	Disarm B/D	Drag B/D	Grapple B/D	Repos. B/D	Trip B/D
130-173	+7	+47/+30/+8	+64/74	+73/81	+73/90	+62/72	+62/67	+90/100	+92/102
80-129	+6	+46/+29/+7	+62/73	+70/79	+70/87	+60/71	+61/67	+84/95	+86/97
30-79	+5	+45/+28/+6	+60/72	+67/77	+67/84	+58/70	+60/67	+78/90	+80/92
5-29	+4	+44/+27/+5	+58/71	+64/75	+64/81	+56/69	+59/67	+72/85	+74/87
4-0	+3	+43/+26/+4	+56/70	+61/73	+61/78	+54/68	+58/67	+66/80	+68/82

Feats Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy, Psionic Knack), Black Seraph Annihilation^B, Black Seraph Style, Black Seraph's Malevolence, Buckler Bash, Combat Reflexes^B, Deep Focus^B, Diehard^B, Dirty Trick Master^B, Enforcer^B, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)^B, Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis), Fiendskin (fire), Greater Dirty Trick^B, Improved Dirty Trick^B, Improved Initiative^B, Improved Metamorphosis^B, Improved Shield Bash^B, Improved Trip^B, Improved Unarmed Strike^B, Intimidating Prowess, Lurker in Darkness^B, Psionic Body^B, Psionic Meditation, Seize the Opportunity^B, Shared Power^B, Shield Slam^B, Soulless Gaze, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)^B

Skills Acrobatics +10, Autohypnosis +17, Bluff +12, Climb +24, Diplomacy +28, Fly +7 (+14 using wand/+15 using armor), Intimidate +59, Knowledge (martial, psionics) +7, Perception +33, Sense Motive +35, Stealth +4 (+7 while Large), Use Magic Device +19

Alternate Racial Traits Gamla Heritage (Large size), Scion of Humanity, Variant Ability (+2 Wisdom)
Traits Adopted (Helpful), Blade of Mercy, Practiced Initiator (zealot), Psionic Knack (wilder)
Martial Tradition Lords of the Wheel (Riven Hourglass)

Gear nephilim's grip (+1 angered¹ benevolent training (Enforcer) deep crystal spiked gauntlet), solstice's grip (+1 training (Black Seraph Annihilation, Seize the Opportunity, Shield Slam) deep crystal spiked gauntlet), dueling (PSFG) leveraging furious amulet of dueling psychic mighty fists, +1 cruel training (Improved Initiative) body wrap of mighty strikes, +5 benevolent mithral celestial plate of natural armor and protection², pauldrons of the splendid resisting bull +5 (+5 to Diplomacy)², twisting vines gauntlets of the skilled bull rush and manipulation (+5 to UMD)², anaconda’s coils belt of physical perfection +6², menacing observant mask of mental superiority +6 (+10 & max ranks in Sense Motive, Intimidate, Perception)², feathered boots of the battle herald (+5 & +2 circumstance to Fly)², bracelet and necklace of charms³ with 12 charms of anger³ and a power charm of intensity³, cognizance crystal (7 pp) x2, manual of gainful exercise +3 (used), cracked dusty rose prism, cracked pale green prism x2, mwk device instruction manual (+2 circumstance to UMD), wands of contingent action (CL 5), fly (CL 6), long arm (CL 5) and strong jaw (CL 7), 11,650 gp (remainder of 880,000 gp standard WBL)
1 Item from Bloodforge.
2 Uses variant item rules from Steelforge (no stacking costs of "big six" or skill competence bonuses to (any) slotted item). All skill bonuses are competence bonuses unless otherwise noted.
3 Item from Steelforge.

Spoiler: 20th Level Values

Show

ABILITY SCORES 20-point buy
Str 42 16 base, 2 race, 5 level, 3 inherent manual, 6 enhancement belt, 4 rage, 2 angered weapon, 4 size metamorphosis
Dex 14 12 base, 6 enhancement belt, -4 size metamorphosis
Con 26 14 base, 6 enhancement belt, 4 rage, 2 angered weapon
Int 13 7 base, 6 enhancement mask
Wis 20 12 base, 2 race, 6 enhancement mask
Cha 22 14 base, 2 race, 6 enhancement mask


DEFENSE VALUES
AC min 48, max 52, touch 22, flat-footed min 35, max 39 (10 + 14 armor (+5 plate), 3 natural (metamorphosis), 5 natural enhancement (+5 armor), 1 shield (shielding fist), 3-7 shield enhancement (fiend's grips enhancement, shielding fist), 2 Dex, 5 deflection (+5 armor of protection), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 4 dodge (Stance of the Thunderbrand), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter), -4 size (Large race, metamorphosis), -2 rage)
Fort +34 (8 Con, 3 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 warlord, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Ref +22 (2 Dex, 3 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter))
Will +35 (5 Wis, 5 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 wilder, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2 morale (rage))

CMD
Base CMD 65 (10 + 19 bab, 16 Str, 2 Dex, 5 deflection (+5 armor of protection), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 4 dodge (Stance of the Thunderbrand), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter), 4 size, -2 rage)
Bull Rush min 70, max 74 (65 base CMD, 3-7 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon), 2 gauntlets)
Dirty Trick min 73, max 81 (65 base CMD, 6-14 luck (+1 furious psychic dueling (PSFG) weapon), 2 Improved Dirty Trick)
Disarm min 78, max 90 (65 base CMD, 3-7 enhancement, 6-14 luck (+1 furious psychic dueling (PSFG) weapon), 2 dueling weapon, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Drag min 68, max 72 (65 base CMD, 3-7 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon))
Grapple 67 (65 base CMD, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Reposition min 80, max 100 (65 base CMD, 3-7 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon), 12-28 luck (+6-14 dueling (PSFG) weapon))
Steal 67 (65 base CMD, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Trip min 82, max 102 (80-100 as reposition, 2 Improved Trip)


OFFENSE VALUES
Reach 35 ft. / 55 ft. with fiend's grip (20 Gargantuan size, 5 living bastion, 5 Stance of the Thunderbrand, 5 long arm / 20 Gargantuan reach weapon)

Fiend's Grips Attack and Damage
Attack Bonus min +43, max +47 (19 bab, 16 Str, 1 Weapon Focus, 3-7 enhancement (+1 furious psychic weapon), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 haste (Time Skitter), -4 size)
Damage Bonus min +26, max +30; +2d6 precision (16 Str, 3-7 enhancement, 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 Blade of Mercy; 2d6 Stance of the Inner Eye)
Damage Die 8d6 (1d8 Medium size -> 2d6 Large size (race size) -> 4d6 Gargantuan size (metamorphosis) -> 8d6 strong jaw)


CMB
Base CMB +47 (19 bab, 16 Str, 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 1 haste (Time Skitter), 4 size)
Bull Rush min +56, max +64; best of 2 rolls (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 6-14 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon), 2 gauntlets; pauldrons)
Dirty Trick min +61, max +73 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 3-7 enhancement, 6-14 luck (+1 furious psychic dueling (PSFG) weapon), 4 Improved and Greater Dirty Trick)
Disarm min +61, max +73 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 3-7 enhancement, 6-14 luck (+1 furious psychic dueling (PSFG) weapon), 2 dueling weapon, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Drag min +54, max +62 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 6-14 enhancement (+3-7 leveraging weapon))
Grapple min +58, max +62 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 3-7 enhancement, 4 grab, 1 competence (2 belt), 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Reposition min +66, max +90 (47 base CMB, 1 Weapon Focus, 6-14 enhancement (+1 furious psychic leveraging weapon), 12-28 luck (+6-14 dueling (PSFG) weapon))
Steal +49 (47 base CMB, 2 circumstance (gauntlets))
Trip min +68, max +92 (66-90 as reposition, 2 Improved Trip)


MISCELLANEOUS VALUES
Initiative +16 (2 Dex, 5 insight (situational awareness), 4 Improved Initiative, 4 enhancement (dueling weapon), 1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))

Manifesting and Rage
Wilder ML 11 metamorphosis and 5 powers known of max 4th level (Expanded Knowledge, 1 wilder, 8 awakened blade, 2 trait)
Power Points 173/day (139 wilder/awakened blade (106 level, 33 Cha), 27 zealot (9 level, 18 Cha), 7 Sleeping Goddess (6 highest level, 1 other known))
Rage 22 rounds/day for +6 morale to Str and Con (3 + 1 wilder, 6 Cha, 12 charms of anger; +4 Str/+4 Con rage, +2/+2 angered weapon)

Skills
Total Skill Ranks 40 plus 20 ranks in Intimidate, Perception and Sense Motive (20 levels x (4 class, -2 Int), +6 Int mask)
Acrobatics +10 (5 ranks, 3 class skill, 2 Dex)
Autohypnosis +12 (4 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis)
Bluff +17 (1 rank, 3 class skill, 6 Cha, 2 insight (Lords of the Wheel))
Climb +24 (5 ranks, 3 class skill, 16 Str)
Diplomacy +28 (14 ranks, 3 class skill, 6 Cha, 5 competence (armor))
Fly +14 using wand/+15 using armor (1 rank, 3 class skill, 2 Dex, 2 circumstance (boots), 5 competence (boots), 4 maneuverability, 3/4 CL wand/armor, -6 size)
Intimidate +59 (20 ranks (mask), 3 class skill, 6 Cha, 16 Str (Intimidating Prowess), 2 Soulless Gaze, 10 competence (mask), 2 circumstance (metamorphosis))
Knowledge (martial, psionics) +7 (3 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 Int)
Perception +38 (20 ranks (mask), 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 10 competence (mask))
Sense Motive +40 (20 ranks (mask), 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 2 insight (Lords of the Wheel), 10 competence (mask))
Stealth +4 (1 rank, 3 class skill, 2 Dex, 2 insight (Lords of the Wheel), -4 size)
Use Magic Device +19 (3 ranks, 3 class skill, 6 Cha, 5 competence (gauntlets), 2 circumstance (wand instruction manual))

Magic Weapon Costs and Abilities
Nephilim's Grip 51,000 gp (deep crystal spiked gauntlet (1,000 gp), +1 enhancement, angered (+2 cost), benevolent (+1 cost), training (Enforcer) (+1 cost))
Solstice's Grip 33,000 gp (deep crystal spiked gauntlet (1,000 gp), +1 enhancement, training (Black Seraph Annihilation, Seize the Opportunity, Shield Slam) (+3 cost))
Amulet of Mighty Fists 85,000 gp (dueling (PSFG) (+1 cost), furious (+1 cost), leveraging (+1 cost), dueling (14,000 gp), psychic (35,000 gp))
Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes 27,000 gp (+1 enhancement, cruel (+1 cost), training (Improved Initiative) (+1 cost))
Fiend's Grips Effective Enhancement Bonus +3 to +7 (1 gauntlets enhancement, 2 furious, 0-4 psychic)

Spoiler: Nelly Nephilim - Level Progression

Show

Level	Class	Features	Feats retrained@ lvl	Maneuversdiscipline lvl Boost/Counter/Strike and Powers retrained@ lvl
1	Monk 1	Gauntlet Strike, shielding fist	Intimidating Prowess4, Improved Shield BashB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)B	Iron ShellIT1C, Lesson II: ControlFE1, Minute HandRH1B, One-Two PunchFE1S
2	Wilder 1	Wild surge +1, psychic enervation, surge blast, surge bond (rage)	-	defensive precognition
3	Warder 1	Defensive focus, fiend’s grip	Combat ReflexesB, Extra Power Known10, Lurker in DarknessB (Lords of the Wheel)	ClockwatcherRH1C, Flurry StrikeBB1, Guard’s OathEG1S, Spilled SaltCR1C, Terrifying BlowEG1S, Black Seraph's GlareBS1, offensive precognition
4	Warlord 1	Barking irons, daring gambit, dastardly gambit, dazzling gambit, salt in the wound, sea dog	Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)B, Greater Dirty TrickB, Improved Dirty TrickB, Two-Weapon Fighting	Encouraging RoarGL1B, Hunting PartyGL1S, Leaping DragonTD1B, Swift ClawsTD1S, Tactical StrikeGL1S, Whirlwind SweepFE1S, Inner Sphere StanceTD1
5	Zealot 1	Collective, compartmentalized aid, zeal +1	Seize the Opportunity9	Reactive ReversionSG2B-16, Grasp of the GoddessSG3B, Piercing StrikePT1S-8, The Best Weapon is TheirsFE3C-10, Thunderous FallPT2S-13, Iron Pikeman’s AttitudePT3
6	Zealot 2	Burning contemplation, conviction (psionic conviction), martyrdom 3	Psionic BodyB	Time SkitterRH3B, Riven Hourglass StanceRH3
7	Zealot 3	Commitment, telepathy	Psionic Meditation	Temporal Body AdjustmentRH4C
8	Zealot 4	Echoes of steel, protection mission focus (living bastion)	EnforcerB (training weapon)	Grim Guard’s LaughterEG4S
9	Awakened Blade 1	Situational awareness	Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy, Psionic Knack), Black Seraph Style, Deep FocusB, Seize the OpportunityB (training weapon)	-
10	Awakened Blade 2	Stance of the inner eye, 2nd level wilder manifesting	Intimidating Prowess	Thrashing Dragon TwistTD5S, Relativity BurstRH5C-20
11	Awakened Blade 3	Uncanny dodge, 3rd level wilder manifesting	Buckler Bash, Shield SlamB (training weapon)	Stance of the ThunderbrandPT5
12	Awakened Blade 4	4th level wilder manifesting	Improved MetamorphosisB	Overpowering OptimismSG6B, minor metamorphosis17
13	Awakened Blade 5	Precognitive defense, 5th level wilder manifesting	Fiendskin (fire)	Sands of Time HurricaneRH7S
14	Awakened Blade 6	Hypercognitive focus	-	Beat the ClockRH7C
15	Awakened Blade 7	Clairsentient counter, 6th level wilder manifesting	Black Seraph's Malevolence, Black Seraph AnnihilationB (training weapon)	banshee’s hearing
16	Awakened Blade 8	7th level wilder manifesting	Shared PowerB	Hammer of the ImmortalEG8S, Orichalcum SwipeGL8S, Lesson VI: SupremacyFE8
17	Awakened Blade 9	Improved uncanny dodge, 8th level wilder manifesting	Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis)	fold space, heartbinding, metamorphosis
18	Awakened Blade 10	Pretercognitive mind, 9th level wilder manifesting	Improved InitiativeB (training weapon)	Oath of EternityEG9C
19	Zealot 5	Defiance, zeal +2	DiehardB, Soulless Gaze	Break the HourglassRH9C, God of the Hourglass StanceRH8,
20	Zealot 6	Conviction (combat conviction)	Dirty Trick MasterB	Lord of the PridelandsGL9?

Please ask away if something seems unclear! Improvement suggestions are of course also highly appreciated!

EDIT: Fixed the errors discovered by Castilonium and exelsisxax - thank you guys! - and a few other minor details that were off. /EDIT

[khadgar567]

Hurray!
snip

can I request more explanation for nephilim upho with preferably villainous competion format were you explain her moves as text like how she readies herself before fight, how she fights during combat and