Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

[upho]

2. using aid another is not a legal action. Break the hourglass requires both actions to effect the originator of the source the counter was used in response to.

Hmm... I always read this as "you may not attack anyone besides the attacker", but now I see you'd be correct strictly according to RAW. But personally, I find it hard to believe this is RAI, because as currently written, the maneuver doesn't even allow you to move closer to the attacker and then attack, since your move doesn't directly affect the attacker. Weird. I'll ask in the FAQ thread.

And you're right regarding the 1/round limitation. I'll edit.

5.7 free: What is dazzling gambit? I also want to intimidate as a free action, but I can't find that ability.

It's a privateer ploy which Nelly picks at 3rd level. Here you go:
"Dazzling Gambit: Whenever the privateer succeeds on a gambit, he can make an Intimidate check to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet as a free action, even if it isn’t his turn." (Copied from the PoW:E PDF, can't provide a link ATM because d20pfsrd.com is down.)

Now get out there and dazzle!

5.9 free(and loop): how are shield slam or buckler bash providing a benefit? buckler bash allows you to replace a bash with an unarmed strike for any maneuvers that require one. It doesn't make unarmed count as bashes, so you shouldn't be getting a shield slam. There isn't a working loop here.

This is one of the combos I was hoping to explain in the "Basic Tactics" section I haven't finished yet. First, Nelly never makes unarmed strikes at this level, she makes gauntlet/fiend's grip attacks which do also count as bashes. Second, this combo includes quite a few more components than Buckler Bash and Shield Slam, and Nelly only needs the US-replacing benefit of Buckler Bash once (for the third and final attack of Thrashing Dragon Twist):

1. Shielding Fist (my emphasis): "At 1st level, so long as the monk of the silver fist is wearing gauntlets, he gains a +1 shield bonus to his AC, and treats his gauntlets as bucklers in addition to their normal effects. If is gauntlets are enchanted, he applies their enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls and to this shield bonus as well."
2. Buckler Bash "You may make shield bash attacks with a buckler as though it was a light shield." (Note also that this is on the Monk of the Silver Fist's list of bonus feats.)
3. Improved Shield Bash "When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC." (Note also that this is on the Monk of the Silver Fist's list of bonus feats.)
4. TWF
5. Shield Slam "Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Chapter 8). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
EDIT: 6. Gauntlet Strike "For the purposes of the monk of the silver fist’s abilities and feats, a gauntlet is any weapon worn over the hands or fingers to aid in punching, including brass knuckles, normal gauntlets, rope gauntlets, and spiked gauntlets."
7. Fiend's Grip "A fiend’s grip is treated as a spiked gauntlet for the purposes Weapon Focus, being discipline weapon for a discipline, and similar feats and abilities." /EDIT

I hope this makes it more clear.

Everything onward: relies on the focus you shouldn't have and the loop you can't complete. I don't think this works.

Nelly needs to use her Clairsentient Counter (AB 6) instead of Break the hourglass in order to interrupt the balor lord's AoO with Thrashing Dragon Twist, and my suspicions on the RAI of Break the hourglass needs to be correct, but otherwise I believe it should work fine.

Thanks a lot!

[exelsisxax]

Hmm... I always read this as "you may not attack anyone besides the attacker", but now I see you'd be correct strictly according to RAW. But personally, I find it hard to believe this is RAI, because as currently written, the maneuver doesn't even allow you to move closer to the attacker and then attack, since your move doesn't directly affect the attacker. Weird. I'll ask in the FAQ thread.

And you're right regarding the 1/round limitation. I'll edit.

I think RAI is "all effects must target the originator" rather than "all actions must target the originator". Moving is fine, but buffing yourself doesn't seem like it should work. Buffing your allies is obviously against RAI, and plenty of other DSP interactions revolve around yourself being an ally.

It's a privateer ploy which Nelly picks at 3rd level. Here you go:
"Dazzling Gambit: Whenever the privateer succeeds on a gambit, he can make an Intimidate check to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet as a free action, even if it isn’t his turn." (Copied from the PoW:E PDF, can't provide a link ATM because d20pfsrd.com is down.)

Now get out there and dazzle!

Ah, locked behind class requirements unfortunately.

This is one of the combos I was hoping to explain in the "Basic Tactics" section I haven't finished yet. First, Nelly never makes unarmed strikes at this level, she makes gauntlet/fiend's grip attacks which do also count as bashes. Second, this combo includes quite a few more components than Buckler Bash and Shield Slam, and Nelly only needs the US-replacing benefit of Buckler Bash once (for the third and final attack of Thrashing Dragon Twist):

1. Shielding Fist (my emphasis): "At 1st level, so long as the monk of the silver fist is wearing gauntlets, he gains a +1 shield bonus to his AC, and treats his gauntlets as bucklers in addition to their normal effects. If is gauntlets are enchanted, he applies their enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls and to this shield bonus as well."
2. Buckler Bash "You may make shield bash attacks with a buckler as though it was a light shield." (Note also that this is on the Monk of the Silver Fist's list of bonus feats.)
3. Improved Shield Bash "When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC." (Note also that this is on the Monk of the Silver Fist's list of bonus feats.)
4. TWF
5. Shield Slam "Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Chapter 8). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
EDIT: 6. Gauntlet Strike "For the purposes of the monk of the silver fist’s abilities and feats, a gauntlet is any weapon worn over the hands or fingers to aid in punching, including brass knuckles, normal gauntlets, rope gauntlets, and spiked gauntlets."
7. Fiend's Grip "A fiend’s grip is treated as a spiked gauntlet for the purposes Weapon Focus, being discipline weapon for a discipline, and similar feats and abilities." /EDIT

I hope this makes it more clear.

Nelly needs to use her Clairsentient Counter (AB 6) instead of Break the hourglass in order to interrupt the balor lord's AoO with Thrashing Dragon Twist, and my suspicions on the RAI of Break the hourglass needs to be correct, but otherwise I believe it should work fine.

Thanks a lot!

Shielding fist was the piece of the puzzle I was missing. But, I do not believe you are correct in your use of stance of the thunderbrand. We're switching sides on RAI now, because DSP obviously don't mean for the infinite AoO loop, despite it not explicitly limiting it. RAI is probably "any movement action taken by threatened opponents" rather than "all movement of threatened opponents"

Despite all that, holy crap hamburger pazuzu.

[jff362]

Thanks for a super useful, super thorough guide!

Just one note, you say, "Unshakable Will*: Why do we get this so late? By the time we have this, we’re already automatically succeeding on Aid Another checks."

...but (without this ability) everyone fails these on a 1. You may already know this but in case it's helpful to one of your readers,
Aid Another says "You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn."

...and Attack Roll says "A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss."

(Is removing a 5% fail chance an exciting ability? No, but I still appreciate it as in this case those occasional 1's can suck.)

[upho]

I think RAI is "all effects must target the originator" rather than "all actions must target the originator". Moving is fine, but buffing yourself doesn't seem like it should work. Buffing your allies is obviously against RAI, and plenty of other DSP interactions revolve around yourself being an ally.

Yeah, that may be the case, although I suspect there may be fuzzy stuff lurking here as well (what exactly is an "effect"?). But since we don't know I'm gonna have to go with the RAW for now, so the move will effectively be wasted.

Ah, locked behind class requirements unfortunately.

Yep, although it's probably the best 1-level dip in the game for any melee and/or gun toting build. The amount of freebies you get is simply astounding.

Shielding fist was the piece of the puzzle I was missing. But, I do not believe you are correct in your use of stance of the thunderbrand. We're switching sides on RAI now, because DSP obviously don't mean for the infinite AoO loop, despite it not explicitly limiting it. RAI is probably "any movement action taken by threatened opponents" rather than "all movement of threatened opponents"

It's unfortunate that PF doesn't have the game term "forced movement". But regarding the RAI of AoO-looping, please note that you can do this using only Paizo options as well (through for example the Siegebreaker fighter) - it may be somewhat more limited, mostly since the number of AoOs you can make are likely to be more limited, but the same basic mechanic of "melee hit -> free combat maneuver(s) -> target provokes AoO -> repeat" is fully possible. Considering the tons of highly specific investments the combo requires, and the fact an enemy initiator of equal level can usually easily break the combo, I honestly don't think it's even close to OP. Nelly simply optimizes the crap out of the combo, pouring easily more than half of the build resources into it, and that is the reason why it's so powerful.

Despite all that, holy crap hamburger pazuzu.

But honestly, even before 20th level plenty of damage focused builds, including some Paizo-only ones, would be capable of easily taking Pazuzu out of the fight before he gets to act (he only has 752 hp, easily bypassed DR and initiative +13, after all). I think the big advantage of Nelly's debuff method is that Pazuzu isn't simply reborn in his layer, but remains alive and can be captured. Not to mention that Nelly also gives the three balor lords only two options: immediately teleport out or die.

That said, one should keep in mind all the demon lords are quite a bit easier when faced outside their own layers (although that hardly matters in this particular case).

[Castilonium]

Thanks for a super useful, super thorough guide!

Just one note, you say, "Unshakable Will*: Why do we get this so late? By the time we have this, we’re already automatically succeeding on Aid Another checks."

...but (without this ability) everyone fails these on a 1. You may already know this but in case it's helpful to one of your readers,
Aid Another says "You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn."

...and Attack Roll says "A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss."

(Is removing a 5% fail chance an exciting ability? No, but I still appreciate it as in this case those occasional 1's can suck.)

That's a gooooooooood point. I have some friends who froth with rage whenever they roll a nat 1. Thanks for the catch! Updated.

I'm glad you like the guide

[Mithril Leaf]

So it's not of total relevance to the guide specifically, but I just wanted to mention that any half Wilder Awakened Blades will want to use *mumble*'s Prophetic Song. Featured in Psionics Augmented: Wilder, it grants an excellently scaling insight bonus to most things.

[upho]

So it's not of total relevance to the guide specifically, but I just wanted to mention that any half Wilder Awakened Blades will want to use *mumble*'s Prophetic Song. Featured in Psionics Augmented: Wilder, it grants an excellently scaling insight bonus to most things.

Did you say euterpe’s prophetic song? If so, I don't really see how, because unless you're able to freely choose the exact moment to enter combat, the standard action manifestation and concentration duration makes it very clunky to use in combat for a zealot/wilder/AB, despite the additional "free" 3 rounds granted by surge (and the insight bonuses don't stack with your Stance of the Inner Eye). Unless I'm missing something, I think there are several much better uses of your standard actions once you hit a level high enough to have the PP needed to make this power competitive, bonus-wise.

Seems great for a less frontliner-y buff focused wilder based build though.


@ Castilonium I like your PrC write-ups and ratings, but I think your final ruling of AB is slightly off. You normally only get the sun, the moon and the kitchen sink for free, but I think you have to be VIP customer who writes class guides in order to get the complementary bouquet of roses, and if you post your AB build here on the GitPG forums, you get a magnum *hiccups* bottle of damn fine Louis Roederer Prestige Cristal champagne to go with your psionic crystals...

More seriously though, I think the AB's entry requirements could be rated red, mostly due to the many and usually mostly wasted skill points and the completely redundant powers you have to keep. Not that it changes the overall rating from ultra-purple, but...

--------------

Speaking of the AB, I think I've finally got RAW legal descriptions of Nelly's basic combos and example opening round in place. Input and hole-poking most appreciated!

Hmm... Maybe I should export Nelly to a google doc for better overview?

[exelsisxax]

Hole poking engaged, then!

5.1: You cannot Echo a 9th level maneuver.

When the zealot initiates a maneuver at least one level below his maximum maneuver level known, he can spend 1 power point per maneuver level to grant a member of his collective the ability to initiate that maneuver one time within 1 minute or until the zealot chooses to recover the maneuver.

5.2 What do you mean, can't use that action? Hustle+echo or metapsionic mastery+ hustle. If nothing else you can just energy bolt something in the face, especially if you take it later on after you refocus. Not like you need it or it matters compared to everything else going on though.

[upho]

Hole poking engaged, then!

Yay!

5.1: You cannot Echo a 9th level maneuver.

Crap. Why do I always seem to forget some pesky detail I'm actually fully aware of?

I'll edit again.

5.2 What do you mean, can't use that action? Hustle+echo or metapsionic mastery+ hustle. If nothing else you can just energy bolt something in the face, especially if you take it later on after you refocus. Not like you need it or it matters compared to everything else going on though.

I mean specifically that Nelly can't use the move for anything constructive in this particular situation. Even if we assume that using the move for moving is legal according to RAW, she doesn't gain anything by doing so, but would provoke AoOs from Pazuzu and Midbal. And while draining them of AoOs for the round may not be a bad idea per se (since Nelly's AC happens to make her nigh immune to the attacks), she still risks having to deal with a crit for a highly redundant gain in this case. Do you think this might be confusing without further clarification?

Did you have a look at the "Basic Combos" as well? If not, I would be very grateful if you could engage your excellent hole-poking for that section as well!

[Mithril Leaf]

Did you say euterpe’s prophetic song? If so, I don't really see how, because unless you're able to freely choose the exact moment to enter combat, the standard action manifestation and concentration duration makes it very clunky to use in combat for a zealot/wilder/AB, despite the additional "free" 3 rounds granted by surge (and the insight bonuses don't stack with your Stance of the Inner Eye). Unless I'm missing something, I think there are several much better uses of your standard actions once you hit a level high enough to have the PP needed to make this power competitive, bonus-wise.

Seems great for a less frontliner-y buff focused wilder based build though.

Oh yeah totally, I just kinda wanted to mention it because I love it and Solicit Psicrystal exists. It's more full Wilder, but if we're already taking wilder levels and being buff heavy, it's way better than say, Bardic Performance. If you can hit ML 17 (1 level of Wilder and a trait gets you to 14, Orange Prism gives you 15) then it's a +9 bonus to near everything.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Discplines & Maneuvers) Unquiet Grave, the discipline from Lords of the Night, complete!
(Prestige Classes) Added Phoenix Champion
Adjusted ratings throughout the guide.

@Mithral Leaf, wow, the bonus scales by 1 per 2 power points!? That does seem kinda bonkers with Solicit Psicrystal. But you definitely would need to do something about the action economy and lack of full caster level from not being a pure Wilder. Honestly, I'm not sure how much I should include powers in the guide, since only one particular prestige class build for Zealots uses them. Sure, it's probably the best prestige class in the game for Zealots, but still.

@upho, I've never seen anybody so thoroughly write out and explain a build in such tremendous complete exhaustive detail! All of your work is hugely appreciated! I think you might deserve TWO whole Cristal champagnes!

I scoured and scanned Nelly's basic combos, and after all the other corrections you've made like not being able to use Break the Hourglass more than once per round, I don't notice any more holes to poke. Awesome job!

[khadgar567]

@Castilonium I know its early but did you consider looking into spheres of might for your handbook it have whole sphere to grab discipline weapons and base athletics sphere can make zealot good at reaching opponents then dishing ridiculous damage quite easy

[Lord_Gareth]

@Castilonium I know its early but did you consider looking into spheres of might for your handbook it have whole sphere to grab discipline weapons and base athletics sphere can make zealot good at reaching opponents then dishing ridiculous damage quite easy

Did we not already have this discussion about why you don't propose crossing 3pp subsystems in this manner during a guide? I distinctly remember the thread having this conversation at considerable length.

[Powerdork]

@Castilonium I know its early but did you consider looking into spheres of might for your handbook it have whole sphere to grab discipline weapons and base athletics sphere can make zealot good at reaching opponents then dishing ridiculous damage quite easy

Did we not already have this discussion about why you don't propose crossing 3pp subsystems in this manner during a guide? I distinctly remember the thread having this conversation at considerable length.

Indeed, it goes from post 28 to post 44 (17 posts total), where it's put to rest, then friend Khadgar brings it up again in post 46, "stirring some nitroglycerin" as it was so nicely put, having an exchange with Forrestfire out to post 51 (6 posts total). Posts 53-55 (+3) also contain some choice related content.
The thread had just dropped back below 20% posts about crossing the streams, but Khadgar, your latest post, by the numbers, bumped it back over, to 20.45%. If you're that passionate about it, perhaps you might write your own guide for Spheres of Might initiators and post a thread for it. It's been decided (with your involvement) that this is not the thread for it.

[Elricaltovilla]

Castilonium, I vaguely recall that we (the PoW guys) ended up deciding something about the maneuver swapping (4th level and every even level thingy) that allowed it to continue working even while you multiclassed out or were in a Prestige Class. I can't remember where we wrote it down, so I might be completely wrong, but I'll dig through some threads and see if I can't find it. Hopefully someone else can help with the legwork?

[Mithril Leaf]

@Mithral Leaf, wow, the bonus scales by 1 per 2 power points!? That does seem kinda bonkers with Solicit Psicrystal. But you definitely would need to do something about the action economy and lack of full caster level from not being a pure Wilder. Honestly, I'm not sure how much I should include powers in the guide, since only one particular prestige class build for Zealots uses them. Sure, it's probably the best prestige class in the game for Zealots, but still.

Oh I actually quite agree it probably shouldn't go in the guide. But as part of the "expanded material" of the thread it's decent info. Much like the fact that technically you can take the good FCB on an Aasimar while still being large via a silly RAW interaction.

I really should make a small tips and tricks thread though...

[Castilonium]

Castilonium, I vaguely recall that we (the PoW guys) ended up deciding something about the maneuver swapping (4th level and every even level thingy) that allowed it to continue working even while you multiclassed out or were in a Prestige Class. I can't remember where we wrote it down, so I might be completely wrong, but I'll dig through some threads and see if I can't find it. Hopefully someone else can help with the legwork?

Oh? If you can find it, that would be awesome! It seems that the prestige classes in the first PoW book all say that you exchange an old maneuver at class levels 2, 5, and 8, but the prestige classes in PoW:Expanded do not say anything at all about exchanging old maneuvers.

[Forrestfire]

Oh? If you can find it, that would be awesome! It seems that the prestige classes in the first PoW book all say that you exchange an old maneuver at class levels 2, 5, and 8, but the prestige classes in PoW:Expanded do not say anything at all about exchanging old maneuvers.

If you look in the zealot class, it says that at level 4 and then every 2 initiator levels after that, you get a swap.

[ATalsen]

If you look in the zealot class, it says that at level 4 and then every 2 initiator levels after that, you get a swap.

All the classes (and class templates) from POW: Expanded have this text, and all the PrCs from Expanded fail to give maneuver swaps. What I recall from the posts about it was that this new setup was supposed to be the new paradigm going forward. I’m assuming that when the errata for POW1 come out, the old classes and PrCs will be updated to this new format.

I’m not fond of this new wording because it’s very ambiguous and if read one way it doesn’t allow swaps like the PrC classes used to.

Specifically the text is:

“Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered initiator level thereafter (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), the zealot can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows.”

The normal assumed interpretation when a class feature mentions “level” and doesn’t specify what kind of level, they mean CLASS level, so the text would read this:

Upon reaching 4th CLASS level, and at every even numbered initiator level thereafter (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on),

And that mixes 2 different types of levels in the same sentence, using one for acquiring the ability and the other from progressing it, which is confusing at best.

This interpretation means that if you don’t get to 4th level in the class, you never get any swaps. So a “Standard Base Class 4 / POW:E Base Class 1 / PoW:E Prestige Class X” type build never gains any swaps because the POW:E Base Class never gets to 4th level.

That is obviously strictly inferior compared to how the Prestige Classes used to provide swaps.

There’s also the problem, with 4th level not *being* an even initiator level for some PCs. Fighter 2 / Zealot 4 is a Zealot initiator level of 5, for example. So if Zealot 4 was their last class taken, do they get a swap or not.

If we assume that it’s this instead:

“Upon reaching 4th INITIATOR level, and at every even numbered initiator level thereafter (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on),”

This interpretation would grant swaps purely based in IL, and that works much better, but we have to go against the basic assumption the class feature is talking about class levels to do that.

So which of these is the right interpretation? Maybe DSP will clarify this when they start working on errata.


If you want to note something in your guide, you can note that there may be differing interpretations of when Zealot gains its swaps, and if it has to have 4 zealot levels or just 4 initiator levels to start gaining swaps.

This gets a bit odder when you work in POW1 PrCs with the Zealot, currently, because the POW1 PrCs still grant swaps. I’d guess I’d recommend picking one swap method and using it instead of getting double swaps.

[upho]

@upho, I've never seen anybody so thoroughly write out and explain a build in such tremendous complete exhaustive detail!

Well, there's a good reason for the exhaustive detail. I've already received PMs from five people asking questions on how Nelly works. And last weekend I got a chance to take her for a spin in a real game (at 18th level), and let me tell you, the tons and tons of fiddly details to remember and the bookkeeping required to play Nelly is unfortunately probably the worst I've ever encountered in PF.

She was still a blast to play though.

All of your work is hugely appreciated! I think you might deserve TWO whole Cristal champagnes!

No. Because then what would we have to give the guy who just wrote 153 friggin' pages of awesomeness on the zealot?

Seriously, you've done a truly great job here, and a tremendous amount of it as well!

I scoured and scanned Nelly's basic combos, and after all the other corrections you've made like not being able to use Break the Hourglass more than once per round, I don't notice any more holes to poke. Awesome job!

Thanks! I think she's finally free of errors now.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Fool's Errand (playtest) complete!
(Style Feats) Added Fool's Errand Style
(Prestige Classes) Added a paragraph at the beginning warning players of the unclear maneuver swapping progression. Also changed "Maneuvers" ratings under the prestige classes for the various interpretations.

@ATalsen
Yeah, I'm pretty confused as well, for all the reasons you mentioned. Also, if we go with the interpretation that PoW base classes get a swap every 4 ILs, then taking prestige classes from the first PoW book will actually give you MORE total swaps than if you had gone straight to level 20 with the base class.

@upho
Awwww shucks, flatterer ♥
Glad to hear you had fun completely wrecking whatever your GM threw at Nelly By the way, if you have a teammate who has Woedrinker (Cursed Razor 7), then you can pick up The Sincerest Form of Flattery (Fool's Errand 4) on Nelly to use it too! Or maybe you can squeeze in Advanced Study somehow to pick up Proof of Victory (Fool's Errand 9). Maybe with some +1 training armor spikes. Gently curse your friends at the start of the day with a 1st level maneuver you got from your Fiendbound Marauder Warder level, like Guard's Oath.

[Elricaltovilla]

You should review the rest of my discipline synergy feats. I worked so very hard on them.

[upho]

(Disciplines & Maneuvers) Fool's Errand (playtest) complete!

My fav! Awesome!

(Prestige Classes) Added a paragraph at the beginning warning players of the unclear maneuver swapping progression. Also changed "Maneuvers" ratings under the prestige classes for the various interpretations.

@ATalsen
Yeah, I'm pretty confused as well, for all the reasons you mentioned. Also, if we go with the interpretation that PoW base classes get a swap every 4 ILs, then taking prestige classes from the first PoW book will actually give you MORE total swaps than if you had gone straight to level 20 with the base class.

I also vaguely recall the discussion and decision Elric mentioned, which means ATalsen's last variant would be correct IIRC. So all mentions of "level" in the base classes' swap rules paragraphs should read "initiator level", and PrCs should of course not have any swap rules of their own.

AFAICT, besides clearing up the current base class/PrC and PoW/PoW:E inconsistencies, the only noteworthy effect this has is that you don't lose out on quite as many useful maneuvers in higher levels by choosing to make an initiator class dip during early levels instead of delaying the dip until higher levels. Personally, I think it makes for a much more streamlined and intuitive system which doesn't punish "odd" character concepts as harshly, as it counteracts the IMO overly significant importance of build order which the IL and swapping rules otherwise create (making for example a "fighter 19/warder 1" considerably stronger than a "warder 1/fighter 19").

Assuming a 1-level dip, the swaps occur at character level 7 (IL 4), 11 (IL 6), 15 (IL 8) and 19 (IL 10). Meaning you still pay for an earlier dip with later level overall maneuver power, just not quite as much as in the case of the original PoW swap rules.

@upho
Awwww shucks, flatterer ♥

Yep. But you certainly had it coming!

Glad to hear you had fun completely wrecking whatever your GM threw at Nelly

Actually, it got pretty darn close to the opposite. The GM had a good grasp of the party's strength and had designed the opposition accordingly, and he really played the enemies convincingly and to the very limits of their abilities. After an easy first fight and some hilarious and unexpectedly successful infiltration shenanigans, Nelly and her two allies - a small annoying pompous imp tiefling eldritch archer magus/spellslinger wizard/myrmidon trench fighter(?)/bladecaster and some kind of weird steampunk-ish pew-pew cleric/homebrew PrC(?) - got a bit over-confident and made some bold but rash decisions... Which resulted in, well, a "not exactly planned" run-in with a very large group of powerful enemies in "less than ideal" circumstances...

And against these well-prepared, disciplined and well-coordinated high CR opponents, many of which had plenty of high level maneuvers/spells/powers, Nelly wasn't nearly as impressive as she may seem two levels later in the example round against Pazuzu. This turned out to be true also in the final very tough fight against three fiendish great wyrms and their equally demonic rune giant gish master. I think Nelly was only a few hit points from death during three out of a total of five rounds, and the cleric was knocked far into the negatives after the dragons had a string of very lucky rolls. We managed to win, but just barely. (After the fight was finally over, even the little damn imp with grandiose personality disorder tiefling was so spent he had to rest at least 10 seconds before he proclaimed the victory had finally completed his "ascent to godhood", and a it took a whole minute before he declared Nelly his "High Exarch and First Carrier of Heavy Divine Treasure"... )

From this somewhat humbling experience, I can only confirm what many people wiser than me have already said many times before: a) unsurprisingly, Dirty Trick Master and Soulless Gaze can really make huge differences in melee combat effectiveness (boy did I miss those two), b) initiative is darn important in high level fights, c) a great build cannot replace great tactics, and d) anything a PC can do, an enemy might also be able to do (which in this case primarily means "great numbers and excellent action economy" doesn't necessarily translate into "greater and more excellent than those of the enemy").

By the way, if you have a teammate who has Woedrinker (Cursed Razor 7), then you can pick up The Sincerest Form of Flattery (Fool's Errand 4) on Nelly to use it too! Or maybe you can squeeze in Advanced Study somehow to pick up Proof of Victory (Fool's Errand 9). Maybe with some +1 training armor spikes.

That would've been great, but unfortunately I think the wording of Training Weapon makes it impossible to use with armor spikes, since it specifically says (my emphasis):

"... as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand..."

I very much suspect the language was intentional, specifically in order to prevent gaining multiple feats for little cost by both holding and wearing several training weapons. And I think Nelly already has as many legal "slots" for the training magic weapon ability as she possibly could have with her four "slots" which all apply to her fiend's grips (the weapons "in hand").

Gently curse your friends at the start of the day with a 1st level maneuver you got from your Fiendbound Marauder Warder level, like Guard's Oath.

I must say I find the whole "curse allies for Woedrinker bonuses"-trick a bit too cheesy even for my tastes, since it typically requires you to go from being "helpful" to being "hostile" towards your (former) allies, use the maneuver, and then to immediately flip back your disposition to "helpful", all within a few seconds and all for no sane reason. Or insane reason for that matter, 'cause even if I were to play say a character suffering from severe schizophrenia or some kind of weird serious psychosis popping up intermittently in seconds-long bursts, I think the convenient timing of my madness alone would simply break even my otherwise notoriously unshakable suspension of disbelief...

And I also don't really see any mechanical balance reason for hand-waving of the implications of such a highly questionable use in order to boost the maneuver. I mean, Woedrinker can be really good regardless of whether it can be powered by cursed allies or not.

But maybe I'm missing something obvious here. What would you say if you were to convince me as a GM that this is a completely reasonable and believable use of Woedrinker?

[exelsisxax]

Has anyone posted in the DSP FAQ thread about the maneuver replacement issue yet, or found the answer somewhere already? an officially unofficial errata on the subject would be nice.

EDIT: it does bring up the weirdness with PoW PrCs again though. Since no PoW:E PrC includes maneuver replacement clauses, can the maneuvers learned from them be replaced through anything other than downtime retraining? Because DSP still hasn't clairified if the PrCs are hard-linked to a base class and share resource progression, therefore allowing maneuver replacement. As it stands, all PrCs count as a full initiator level to any and all initiating classes.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Elemental Current
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Elemental Focus
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Elemental Sun
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Flowing Mithral Fist
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Molten Silver Strike
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Quicksilver Grip
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Silver Fang Initiate
(PoW & Expanded feats) Added Vortex Rush

You should review the rest of my discipline synergy feats. I worked so very hard on them.

Done

That would've been great, but unfortunately I think the wording of Training Weapon makes it impossible to use with armor spikes, since it specifically says (my emphasis):

"... as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand..."

I very much suspect the language was intentional, specifically in order to prevent gaining multiple feats for little cost by both holding and wearing several training weapons. And I think Nelly already has as many legal "slots" for the training magic weapon ability as she possibly could have with her four "slots" which all apply to her fiend's grips (the weapons "in hand").

Looks like you're right. But in Nelly's equipment list, she has +1 cruel training (Improved Initiative) body wrap of mighty strikes. Body wraps are worn on the body, not in hand, so either it works because it's like that tape boxers wrap around their hands, or I've found a hole to poke in Nelly's build!

I must say I find the whole "curse allies for Woedrinker bonuses"-trick a bit too cheesy even for my tastes, since it typically requires you to go from being "helpful" to being "hostile" towards your (former) allies, use the maneuver, and then to immediately flip back your disposition to "helpful", all within a few seconds and all for no sane reason. Or insane reason for that matter, 'cause even if I were to play say a character suffering from severe schizophrenia or some kind of weird serious psychosis popping up intermittently in seconds-long bursts, I think the convenient timing of my madness alone would simply break even my otherwise notoriously unshakable suspension of disbelief...

And I also don't really see any mechanical balance reason for hand-waving of the implications of such a highly questionable use in order to boost the maneuver. I mean, Woedrinker can be really good regardless of whether it can be powered by cursed allies or not.

But maybe I'm missing something obvious here. What would you say if you were to convince me as a GM that this is a completely reasonable and believable use of Woedrinker?

Well, let's think about Nelly for a second. She's a large angelic anthropomorphic camel who was adopted by halflings, raised as a LG monk, discovered she was prone to intense bouts of psionic-fueled rage, started growing fiendish claws and chains out of her gauntlets which she was taught to defend others with, joined a pirate crew, switched from LG to NG, became telepathic, started worshiping Sarenrae and learned how to maim people nonlethally with her spooky fiendish clawchains AND learned a style associated with a typically evil discipline at the same time, gained The Force™ to see the immediate future like a jedi, willingly gained the patronage of an evil outsider while still worshiping Sarenrae, and ended up N. (That was a long sentence!)

You already got your GM to accept that character concept, and it doesn't shake your or my ironclad suspensions of disbelief, whereas some people I know would asplode with indignation and say it's too implausible and cheesy. Even taking all that into account, she managed to hook up with a party that trusts her with their lives in dangerous adventuring situations. Her winning personality must go a long way! So really, how much of a further stretch is it to say that she wants to curse allies once a day with a harmless curse in order to feed on and gain power from it? Nelly's been through a lot, and changed alignments twice! You don't need to be psychotic or schizophrenic to have odd quirks.

I can think of several reasons to justify it. Maybe the fiendish powers that gave her her Fiendbound Marauder level or Damnation feats also made her a tad sadomasochistic. Maybe it's a byproduct of suffering so much mental stress from her psionic bouts of rage and clairsentience. Maybe it helps her feel closer to her allies and her protective, orderly, monkish roots. She has incredible charisma, so she wouldn't have any trouble convincing her friends to go along with it. She can spin the daily indulgence as a friendly spar, a religious ritual, a kinky wrestling match, or anything else you can imagine! All she has to do, once a day, is unarmed strike her friends with Guard's Oath and use Protection Mission and Martyrdom to half and transfer the damage to herself so that they don't get hurt. Then for the rest of the day, she can stop for a moment and savor the "curse" she inflicted upon her friends, gaining power and resolve to better protect them like a proper Zealot.

Anyway, I personally would never do this in my games because Woedrinker is ludicrously powerful. I just figured that you'd like it on Nelly as a TO exercise, because she's ludicrously powerful too

[khadgar567]

@Castilonium
you know nelly is quite powerful even with out going full ham on woedrinker and turning genuine big bad of the game at any monument so lets release the throttle from her must gibs kill any one gear and talk about lets say how she survives her evil clone

[upho]

Looks like you're right. But in Nelly's equipment list, she has +1 cruel training (Improved Initiative) body wrap of mighty strikes. Body wraps are worn on the body, not in hand, so either it works because it's like that tape boxers wrap around their hands, or I've found a hole to poke in Nelly's build!

As with the Amulet of Mighty Fists, there's a crucial difference to armor spikes: even though these worn items have weapon enchantments, they aren't used to make attacks (the unarmed strikes and natural attacks which the items affect are). Meaning Nelly attacks with weapons "in hand" which count as both natural attacks and spiked gauntlets, and her attacks with her fiend's grips thus receive the benefits of her amulet, wrap and gauntlet enchantments, but not the benefits of any armor spikes she might wear.

Btw, the Angered Weapon from Bloodforge could also have been a prime candidate for armor spikes, but it uses the "in hand" language as well:

An angered weapon improves the bonuses to Strength and Constitution granted by a barbarian’s rage by 2 and prevents the barbarian from being fatigued at the end of a rage so long as the weapon is in hand. It also confers this effect on creatures or other classes that gain a rage ability like that of the barbarian.
Caster level: 8th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, wrath of our fathers*; Market Price: +2 bonus.

Well, let's think about Nelly for a second.

/Amazing summary of Nelly cut for brevity./

You don't need to be psychotic or schizophrenic to have odd quirks.

Ha ha! I love it!

But my point here was that in contrast to the Woedrinker trick, all the crazy stuff that currently make up Nelly are fully supported by RAW. And her progression, from her weird race and early career as a pirate to her alignment changes and Sith training, are fully possible in a real game without any need for GM handwaving. This reflects the primary condition and goal I set for Nelly: she should be ludicrously powerful without needing any dubious readings of RAW or any tricks which might not work in practice in a real game. You could say I intended her to be a TO example of PO!

I can think of several reasons to justify it. Maybe the fiendish powers that gave her her Fiendbound Marauder level or Damnation feats also made her a tad sadomasochistic. Maybe it's a byproduct of suffering so much mental stress from her psionic bouts of rage and clairsentience. Maybe it helps her feel closer to her allies and her protective, orderly, monkish roots. She has incredible charisma, so she wouldn't have any trouble convincing her friends to go along with it. She can spin the daily indulgence as a friendly spar, a religious ritual, a kinky wrestling match, or anything else you can imagine! All she has to do, once a day, is unarmed strike her friends with Guard's Oath and use Protection Mission and Martyrdom to half and transfer the damage to herself so that they don't get hurt. Then for the rest of the day, she can stop for a moment and savor the "curse" she inflicted upon her friends, gaining power and resolve to better protect them like a proper Zealot.

Hey... I think the sparring idea could actually work with the RAW. I like it! You are a master maker of the finest cheese, sir!

Anyway, I personally would never do this in my games because Woedrinker is ludicrously powerful. I just figured that you'd like it on Nelly as a TO exercise, because she's ludicrously powerful too

I totally agree here. But cheesiness aside, I can't find a way for Nelly to gain the necessary components. But thanks for the tip!

@Castilonium
you know nelly is quite powerful even with out going full ham on woedrinker and turning genuine big bad of the game at any monument so lets release the throttle from her must gibs kill any one gear and talk about lets say how she survives her evil clone

Good point. But I think powerful counters and other immediate actions which can void Nelly's attacks are going to remain more or less cryptonite to her fighting style pretty much regardless of her build details. But this is true for all characters (except perhaps certain powerful full casters or summoners), and having easy access to such cryptonite (counters) is probably the most unique strength of initiators.

[Castilonium]

Guide Update Notes:
(Paizo Feats) Now in alphabetical order!
(Traits) Added Battlefield Disciple
(Traits) Now in alphabetical order!
(Base Class Dips) Now in alphabetical order!
(Prestige Classes) Added Mage Hunter
(Sample Builds) Added The Bronze Boar, who focuses on multi-attack strikes to maximize the use of Golden Lion Command!

[upho]

WARNING!

*hears faint rumbling sound as of a gigantic die being rolled, tumbling across a table in an impossible dimension*

DO NOT READ THE BRONZE BOAR EXAMPLE BU-

*hears the rolling die coming to a stop, holds breath for a few seconds, staring at nothing in wide-eyed horror, every muscle tense, before continuing to type*

-ILD IN THE GUIDE! IT WILL DESTROY YOUR MIND! Castilonium is out to annihilate and consume our very souls! The po-

*hears the distant thunder of the die crashing against the table again*

-wer of his Bronze Boar is not of this world, sculpted by a mad genius in RAW cheese from beyond all books, all reas-

*hears the die coming to a sudden stop again, and then babbles incoherently* ...as a swift action to grant all allies within 30 feet 5 temporary... *babbles incoherently*

-on, all time and space. It will show you the game as it really is, the terrifying insignificance of every PC you have ever played. It's attacks will assault you with insights into maddening mechanics play-

*hears the chaotic dance of the die starting yet again*

-er minds were not meant to have, while it's black rubbery tentacles will seize you in its cold wet embrace and strip the RAW truth naked in front of your eyes. The Bronze Bull is incomprehensibly pure, utterly alien and infinite

*hears the die coming to a final stop*

EVIL^TM.

*suddenly lifts keyboard and smashes it into own face for 1d8 + 2 damage, and starts chanting:*

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthastithoniu R'layehond wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Castilonium Playground wgah'nagl fhtagn!

[khadgar567]

WARNING!

*hears faint rumbling sound as of a gigantic die being rolled, tumbling across a table in an impossible dimension*

DO NOT READ THE BRONZE BOAR EXAMPLE BU-

*hears the rolling die coming to a stop, holds breath for a few seconds, staring at nothing in wide-eyed horror, every muscle tense, before continuing to type*

-ILD IN THE GUIDE! IT WILL DESTROY YOUR MIND! Castilonium is out to annihilate and consume our very souls! The po-

*hears the distant thunder of the die crashing against the table again*

-wer of his Bronze Boar is not of this world, sculpted by a mad genius in RAW cheese from beyond all books, all reas-

*hears the die coming to a sudden stop again, and then babbles incoherently* ...as a swift action to grant all allies within 30 feet 5 temporary... *babbles incoherently*

-on, all time and space. It will show you the game as it really is, the terrifying insignificance of every PC you have ever played. It's attacks will assault you with insights into maddening mechanics play-

*hears the chaotic dance of the die starting yet again*

-er minds were not meant to have, while it's black rubbery tentacles will seize you in its cold wet embrace and strip the RAW truth naked in front of your eyes. The Bronze Bull is incomprehensibly pure, utterly alien and infinite

*hears the die coming to a final stop*

EVIL^TM.

*suddenly lifts keyboard and smashes it into own face for 1d8 + 2 damage, and starts chanting:*

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthastithoniu R'layehond wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Castilonium Playground wgah'nagl fhtagn!

looks like we found nellys sparring partner:)