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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    looks like we found nellys sparring partner:)
    Ha ha!

    You're joking, right? You know if we ever would allow Castilonium to bring that... ...thing up to 20th level and put it front of poor Nelly, she'd run away screaming in utter terror! And then she'd start hearing "The Die of Madness" as well...

    I mean, it's just a writhing mass of hooves, stingers, tails, tentacles and... horrible stuff. A sentient "thing" made almost entirely of a greater assortment of nasty lethal natural attacks than all of the extant Australian species combined! And that's not even worst part! Because then Castilonium decided give this monstrosity not just a sword, a shield, a spiked armor and Golden Lion Command, but also... *hyperventilates* ...a friggin' boulder helm!

    I simply do not have the words to describe the unfathomable depths of this EVILTM.

    (Seriously, I simply adore the Bronze Bull. It's completely nuts, of course, but in a hilariously fun way IMO.)

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Ha ha!

    You're joking, right? You know if we ever would allow Castilonium to bring that... ...thing up to 20th level and put it front of poor Nelly, she'd run away screaming in utter terror! And then she'd start hearing "The Die of Madness" as well...

    I mean, it's just a writhing mass of hooves, stingers, tails, tentacles and... horrible stuff. A sentient "thing" made almost entirely of a greater assortment of nasty lethal natural attacks than all of the extant Australian species combined! And that's not even worst part! Because then Castilonium decided give this monstrosity not just a sword, a shield, a spiked armor and Golden Lion Command, but also... *hyperventilates* ...a friggin' boulder helm!

    I simply do not have the words to describe the unfathomable depths of this EVILTM.

    (Seriously, I simply adore the Bronze Bull. It's completely nuts, of course, but in a hilariously fun way IMO.)
    @upho and @castoum
    can you explain both whipvenger and bulltulhu builds like nelly its kinda hard for new player to gauge the power level plus nelly shows how she becomes this one turn multi gibs kill machine but i cant kinda warp my head on whipvenger(first build by the way) and bulltulhu( nickname for bronze bull)( by the way can bull chan use akashic stuff since he can dip atleast 8 levels to any akashic class)
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Mwahahahaha! I've driven even the creator of the almighty Nelly Nephilim and Miss Piggy Plentiklaus utterly bonkers!

    Glad you like the Bronze Boar so much The priests of Lamashtu are quite happy with him as well! I also gave him a Barbazu Beard for good measure, so he's up to 19 attacks now. I thought about giving him two Sea-Knives and the Flight aegis customization, but I'm not sure if they would interfere with his hooves.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    I thought this might be worth pointing out, but there's an archetype for the Monk called 'Scaled Fist" that switches all Wisdom derived abilities to Charisma.

    (Sorry if someone else pointed this out, but I didn't see mention of it.)

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Mwahahahaha! I've driven even the creator of the almighty Nelly Nephilim and Miss Piggy Plentiklaus utterly bonkers!
    I'm not bonkers! And I'm not afraid-

    *grabs plastic He-Man sword in trembling hands and pokes under bed and into closet, making certain Castilonium or his terrifying Bronze Boar isn't actually hiding there*

    -of you!

    ....

    Well OK, maybe I am a little bonkers.... And a little afraid... But just a little!

    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Glad you like the Bronze Boar so much The priests of Lamashtu are quite happy with him as well! I also gave him a Barbazu Beard for good measure, so he's up to 19 attacks now. I thought about giving him two Sea-Knives and the Flight aegis customization, but I'm not sure if they would interfere with his hooves.
    No. I am - NOT - going to read that again. Period.

    Truth is, I've been trying and failing to reply to this for like ten times already. This is actually the first time I've managed to keep myself from reading it again, which is the sole reason why I'm able write more than one word before being thrown into yet another hysterical giggle fit. Seriously, this paragraph combined with the Bronze Boar build itself is just pure gold on so many levels I don't even know where to start. And that last sentence...

    Crap, now I'm laughing again!

    Castilonium, I give up! You've officially won the internet!

    Seriously, I cannot stop laughing! This is... is...
    Last edited by upho; 2017-03-18 at 12:54 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by FabulousChester View Post
    I thought this might be worth pointing out, but there's an archetype for the Monk called 'Scaled Fist" that switches all Wisdom derived abilities to Charisma.

    (Sorry if someone else pointed this out, but I didn't see mention of it.)
    Hey, I dunno 'bout Castilonium, but I had actually completely missed this. Thanks!

    *checks out this Cha-monk and then gets a headache from trying to decipher monk archetype compatibilities for the hundredth time*

    And it seems the Scaled Fist actually works with the Master of Many Styles! Which is great because... Uh...?

    Unfortunately, I don't really see a point in dipping into this archetype. The Wis-to-Cha unfortunately only affects features/feats zealots are highly unlikely to be interested in using anyways (bonus to AC, daily uses of Stunning Fist etc), and it doesn't really offer anything else you can't get a better deal on elsewhere AFAICT. Too bad it doesn't work with the Monk of the Silver Fist though, because that could've been a lot more interesting. (As usual when trying to combine monk archetypes for dipping, it fails because of some damn pesky little detail you don't give a crap about. ).

    Anyone else find anything useful to pilfer from this archetype? FabulousChester?

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    I haven't worked out anything that utilizes Scaled Fist itself, per se. I just sort of noticed the potential Charisma synergy, but I guess I hadn't considered it may not be all the useful ultimately. I guess if someone wanted to make an unarmored character to channel some sort of Jedi-ish feel? Which would probably be best combined with Master of Many Styles or something.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any reason to go with a Scaled Fist Monk dip. You need to be unarmored, and full plate + heavy shield is really good. An oracle dip can do the same thing and still allow you to wear armor. Scaled Fist also doesn't seem to be compatible with any other archetype, according to Secret Wizard's guide to monks. It and MoMS both modify/replace bonus feats. Thanks for the suggestion, though!

    Upho, now I'm not sure if I should bother with other sample builds, because I'm worried nothing can top winning the internet like that!

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any reason to go with a Scaled Fist Monk dip. You need to be unarmored, and full plate + heavy shield is really good. An oracle dip can do the same thing and still allow you to wear armor. Scaled Fist also doesn't seem to be compatible with any other archetype, according to Secret Wizard's guide to monks. It and MoMS both modify/replace bonus feats. Thanks for the suggestion, though!

    Upho, now I'm not sure if I should bother with other sample builds, because I'm worried nothing can top winning the internet like that!
    just try it little bit harder i know when starfinder comes we can beat it
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Scaled Fist also doesn't seem to be compatible with any other archetype, according to Secret Wizard's guide to monks. It and MoMS both modify/replace bonus feats.
    Yeah, Secret Wizard is right and I was wrong. I forgot that RAW, an archetype which adds options to a list is treated has having altered the feature in question, and is therefore incompatible with another archetype which replaces/alters/adds to the original options in the same list (even if the archetypes aren't replacing/altering the same individual options). BTW, this somewhat counter-intuitive rule is the reason why so many PoW archetype features needed to include text which clarify they're exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Upho, now I'm not sure if I should bother with other sample builds, because I'm worried nothing can top winning the internet like that!
    What... NO! Me wants more builds! Don't worry, please!

    Wait, I know... You put up those builds, or I'll take that internet back!

    Speaking of, I just remembered I still haven't written down the actual build goals for Nelly. And I really should add a note clearly stating she should not in any way be regarded as a build suitable for most real games. Yeah, unfortunately I do think that is needed. IME people quite often misunderstand the context and intentions when they read up on a build posted on the forums. And in the case of builds people are likely to view as OP, there are of course also more people jumping to the wrong conclusions about everything from the purpose of the build ("how do I play your [horribly broken don't-do-this-at-home TO monster] build?") to the creator's preferred play style ("power-gaming munchkins like you don't belong at my table").

    Come to think of it, you should probably also add a similar line to the Bronze Boar intro text. That build is exactly the type which risks being misunderstood by inexperienced players and/or seemingly provokes some people with its mere existence.

    And now for some ramblings on Bronze Boar build details and the Ability Score section of the guide!

    Spoiler: Ramblings
    Show

    Ability Scores, and Picking your Fighting Style
    Is there a particular reason why you don't actually give any ability score distribution recommendations in this section? I can understand a reluctance since this is often highly build dependent, but I still recommend you add at least the most common basic ability score priority order to help newer players.

    The Bronze Boar
    Important Maneuvers: Frenzy Strike (Thrashing Dragon 3), Cornered Frenzy Strike (Thrashing Dragon 5)
    Pssst! You claim these maneuvers are Thrashing Dragon!

    Aegis Customizations (9): ...4 Tentacles, Stinger, Brawn.
    Student of the Astral Suit increases the Bronze Boar's effective aegis level by +4 for a total of 7th level, which AFAICT means he should actually have 10 customization points. And I think you should add the Darkvision, Hardened Strikes and additional Brawn customizations the aberrant gets for free.

    The Bronze Boar has a sword, a shield bash, armor spikes, a boulder helm, a barbazu beard, 2 hooves, a bite, a gore, 4 tentacles, 2 stings, and a tail attack.
    Since he obviously already has an UMD of at least +19 and seems to have some money left, I'd add a dorje of metamorphosis for 11,250 gp. This could give 2 additional natural attacks (or increase his size to Gargantuan).

    And now that I'm able to keep myself from giggling, looking at the Cornered Frenzy Strike RAW, I think attacking with both hooves and sea-knives works fine. Both weapon types can be simultaneously wielded, even if they cannot normally be used during the same full attack since they use the same limb (legs). AFAICT, the reason why the same wouldn't be possible with weapons wielded in the Bronze Boar's hands if he also had say a pair of claws, is that he cannot simultaneously attack with his claws and use them to wield his sword and shield. In contrast, the sea-knives remain attached and wielded regardless of whether he attacks with his hooves or not. I suggest you use the left-over customization point to give him flight so he can use the sea-knives.

    Finally, with a 1-level monk dip, he'd also have a monk unarmed strike which can be performed with any part of the body and counts as a manufactured weapon, and should therefore also count as wielded for the purpose of Cornered Frenzy Strike.

    So... 24 attacks?



    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    just try it little bit harder i know when starfinder comes we can beat it
    Yes! Then we might actually get to add some serious lazorpew-pew zealots, jedi masters and sith lords!
    Last edited by upho; 2017-03-21 at 04:08 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Yup, it's sad but true, some people think that builds like Nelly, Bronze Boar, and Pun-Pun are things you should bring to an actual game And others think you're scum merely for playing with the set of tinker toys that is the 3.5/PF ruleset to find out what legally works! I've added nice bright shiny bold red warning labels on Bronze Boar and Nelly in the vain hope that won't happen.

    I didn't put in guidelines for stats, because I figured that they would be pretty self-evident. New players don't seem like the type to pick up 3rd party material right off the bat, so I figured that most people reading my guide would be experienced. I'm probably wrong about that. But I thought about it some more, and realized some people might decide to pump constitution to the roof at the expense of charisma simply because they're a "tank" class. So alright, guidelines added at the end of the section!

    Thanks for catching all those mistakes on the Bronze Boar! Since you reminded me of the hilariously broken RAW of Cornered Frenzy Strike, that made me realize that ol' Bronzy can have even more attacks with claws. So I gave him 2 Thorn Bracers and an Amulet of the Blooded (Abyssal) for claw attacks. And with the dorje of metamorphosis, he's up to 25 attacks now . Could probably be 26 with a level of monk like you said, but I'm not completely certain about that. I also added a couple lil paragraphs mentioning how much more insane he becomes at levels 13 and 15

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    I could use some advice selecting maneuvers. I'm building a 5th level half-orc Zealot, going evil, all offense, probably with a longspear / shield and Unorthodox Method traits so I can move my disciplines around. Probably Protection mission (5' reach) and Impulsive Reactions so I can rush right into the thick of things and then make plenty of attacks of opportunity while foes move in and out of range.

    If I'm understanding my action economy correctly, every round I could use a boost (swift), strike (standard), then aid another (move) to refresh the first two and repeat the cycle next round, correct? If so, what's the best combination at this level? Chains of Doubt seems really good, but I don't know what boost would go best with it. For my stance I am leaning toward Elemental Flux Stance (fire) for passive healing (the party is very light on healing) and extra damage.

    I expect to be fighting orcs, goblins, and other armed humanoids, if that makes a difference. Any advice? Thanks!

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanPDX View Post
    I could use some advice selecting maneuvers. I'm building a 5th level half-orc Zealot, going evil, all offense, probably with a longspear / shield and Unorthodox Method traits so I can move my disciplines around. Probably Protection mission (5' reach) and Impulsive Reactions so I can rush right into the thick of things and then make plenty of attacks of opportunity while foes move in and out of range.

    If I'm understanding my action economy correctly, every round I could use a boost (swift), strike (standard), then aid another (move) to refresh the first two and repeat the cycle next round, correct? If so, what's the best combination at this level? Chains of Doubt seems really good, but I don't know what boost would go best with it. For my stance I am leaning toward Elemental Flux Stance (fire) for passive healing (the party is very light on healing) and extra damage.

    I expect to be fighting orcs, goblins, and other armed humanoids, if that makes a difference. Any advice? Thanks!
    Just to clear up the maneuver refreshing: You can't refresh maneuvers that you've used in the same round. So your actions will be aid another (move) to refresh your maneuvers you used in the previous round, boost (swift), strike (standard) in that order. You can use a counter (immediate) if you don't plan on using a boost when your turn comes up. If you didn't use a counter, then always use a boost to make sure you don't waste your swift action.

    For boosts, Eldritch Fang (Elemental Flux 2) is good as it lets you hit incorporeal enemies and makes your attacks cause the staggered condition, a good backup if you fail to nauseate with Chains of Doubt. Hastened Leap (Piercing Thunder 2) is good for mobility since you probably have a poor acrobatics check and big ACP. Fear Eating Technique (Black Seraph 2) will help your self-healing and keep you up longer in a fight, but you need to have a way to reliably inflict fear conditions like Cornugon Smash or Enforcer. The absolute best boost for your level is Defending the Pride (Golden Lion 2), especially if you have the Community-Minded trait. Once you reach level 6, if you have access to Shattered Mirror, take a look at Reflected Blade Style. It's kind of insane.

    For counters, you can't ask for better than Fear the Reaper (Eternal Guardian 2). Half-orcs have +2 racial intimidate, too.

    Chains of Doubt is one of the best 3rd level strikes for most Zealots, yes. Once you reach level 7, grab either Bilious Strike (Black Seraph 4) or Energy Hammer (Elemental Flux 4) in earth active element. They're both ludicrously powerful and disable enemies for ages.

    Elemental Flux Stance is far and away the best 3rd level stance in the game. Earth and air active elements are better than fire while you're in combat, though. Switch to fire for healing outside of combat, then go back to earth or air. Once you reach level 9, get Stance of the Thunderbrand (Piercing Thunder 5) and never look back.

    Hope that helps, have fun

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Thank you for the advice, that's exactly what I needed!

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    To the Zealot experts! I would deeply apreciate some advice

    my players (im the DM) will soon fight a buch of bad guys hunting the same treasure as them. I figured a zealot with some minions and maube another capable npc.
    They will have a number of Kuo Toa henchmen, i was thinking a ranged Zealot could be a good back up for them.

    How could i build such a zealot to challenge a group of 5 level players, without overwhelming them too much?
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaoeaeieu
    Or maybe, i dont know... adoption?
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Swaoeaeieu View Post
    To the Zealot experts! I would deeply apreciate some advice

    my players (im the DM) will soon fight a buch of bad guys hunting the same treasure as them. I figured a zealot with some minions and maube another capable npc.
    They will have a number of Kuo Toa henchmen, i was thinking a ranged Zealot could be a good back up for them.

    How could i build such a zealot to challenge a group of 5 level players, without overwhelming them too much?
    Without knowing anything about your group of level 5 players, it's impossible to say. But here are some general tips.

    Have the Zealot have lower HP than what a PC would have. Like, say, 10 constitution. Dip a level of Rubato Bard for a bit less HP, 1 less BAB, 1 less IL, but more minion support and Flowing Creek. Take the Combat Training trait to grab Leaping Dragon (TD) for some mobility. Use lots of minion-supporting boosts and counters like Pride Movement (GL) and Fear the Reaper (EG). Use strikes that don't directly do bonus damage, but lightly debuff the players or enable the minions, like Harmony-Shattering Strike (SG) and Disarming Shot (TG). Make it obvious that the Zealot is a threat that exponentially makes the fight harder so that the players will decide it's worth the risk to shove past the minions and attack the Zealot.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by Castilonium View Post
    Without knowing anything about your group of level 5 players, it's impossible to say. But here are some general tips.

    Have the Zealot have lower HP than what a PC would have. Like, say, 10 constitution. Dip a level of Rubato Bard for a bit less HP, 1 less BAB, 1 less IL, but more minion support and Flowing Creek. Take the Combat Training trait to grab Leaping Dragon (TD) for some mobility. Use lots of minion-supporting boosts and counters like Pride Movement (GL) and Fear the Reaper (EG). Use strikes that don't directly do bonus damage, but lightly debuff the players or enable the minions, like Harmony-Shattering Strike (SG) and Disarming Shot (TG). Make it obvious that the Zealot is a threat that exponentially makes the fight harder so that the players will decide it's worth the risk to shove past the minions and attack the Zealot.
    ah yes, i forgot to provide context again. This is actually a 3.5 game at the moment, but i sometimes use path of war material for bossfights, so far it has given the party tough and exiting challenges.
    The party is all level 5. A blasting sorcerer, a melee heavy phycic warrior, an archer ranger, a goliath barbarian and a throwing focussed scout. Solution to propblems so far are almost always by destroying the problem, ignoring it, or somehow performing a warcrime.

    My idea was for the zealot to stay at a distance, using the martyr feature to keep the minions allive through the fight. The combat would have a goal besides killing the other party, like grabbing something important. That way if the fight proves too difficult the players can still win, and maybe have a recurring bad guy.
    Would level 6 or 7 be too high for a party like mine? depending on the ammount of smaller targets/members of the collective of course.
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    6-7 would probably be too high. That'd give the zealot access to more deadly maneuvers, both in terms of damage and crowd control power. Make it level 5 with 10 constitution, and focus on debuffs and minions support like I mentioned. Make sure to keep some minions or terrain features between the players and the zealot so that they can't simply run straight up to him without effort.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    cool. thanks for the tips!
    Quote Originally Posted by Orderic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by swaoeaeieu
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    Don't be ridiculous. We need those orphans...
    If at any point you notice mistakes in my English, please let me know, I am always looking to improve.

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    I'm designing a melee damage character for a Skull and Shackles campaign, Gestalt level 6. We already have a tank so I just want to charge in and wreck people with a two-hander. Your guide has sold me that the Zealot / Rubato Bard could throw around a lot of damage dice without being a total glass cannon. I have a few questions:

    1. Is my go-to battle plan to start Metronome, throw all my Tempo into enhancing strikes (for maximum damage dice) and burn any leftover to refresh my bard song rounds if they run low?
    2. I'm going half-orc so I have 3 convictions. Impulsive Reactions is obvious, but what else to take? I'm pretty feat-starved, probably taking Awakened Animus, Power Attack, and the last one or two are the hard part. Discipline Focus? Cornugon Smash (with 6th level conviction as a combat feat?)
    3. I assume the Zealot / Bard combo is best to focus on Elemental Flux and Sleeping Goddess so I can enhance my maneuvers. Are there any "must have" maneuvers you would recommend from other disciplines?
    4. I'm torn on the mission too, since the good stuff won't turn on until 8th. I want to be destructive but Creation (emergency self-healing) or Protection (5' reach) seem like better choices.
    5. Best two-handed non-reach weapon? Earthbreaker, Greatsword, Greataxe, or Falchion?
    6. Any other tips, favorite magic items, traits, or other ideas to help max my pirate face-smashing ways? I really like the concept of the character but man, there are a lot of things to keep track of! Two maneuver lists, tempo, power points, proper action order, etc. I'll need to bring a whiteboard to manage it all!

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanPDX View Post
    I'm designing a melee damage character for a Skull and Shackles campaign, Gestalt level 6. We already have a tank so I just want to charge in and wreck people with a two-hander. Your guide has sold me that the Zealot / Rubato Bard could throw around a lot of damage dice without being a total glass cannon. I have a few questions:

    1. Is my go-to battle plan to start Metronome, throw all my Tempo into enhancing strikes (for maximum damage dice) and burn any leftover to refresh my bard song rounds if they run low?
    2. I'm going half-orc so I have 3 convictions. Impulsive Reactions is obvious, but what else to take? I'm pretty feat-starved, probably taking Awakened Animus, Power Attack, and the last one or two are the hard part. Discipline Focus? Cornugon Smash (with 6th level conviction as a combat feat?)
    3. I assume the Zealot / Bard combo is best to focus on Elemental Flux and Sleeping Goddess so I can enhance my maneuvers. Are there any "must have" maneuvers you would recommend from other disciplines?
    4. I'm torn on the mission too, since the good stuff won't turn on until 8th. I want to be destructive but Creation (emergency self-healing) or Protection (5' reach) seem like better choices.
    5. Best two-handed non-reach weapon? Earthbreaker, Greatsword, Greataxe, or Falchion?
    6. Any other tips, favorite magic items, traits, or other ideas to help max my pirate face-smashing ways? I really like the concept of the character but man, there are a lot of things to keep track of! Two maneuver lists, tempo, power points, proper action order, etc. I'll need to bring a whiteboard to manage it all!

    Thanks!
    1. Use Inspire Courage instead of Metronome. That gives you and your party +2 or more attack and damage. That's generally better than getting 2 more tempo per round. Remember that you can only spend so much tempo in a given action. Also, there are many strikes that deal more damage even than an augmented Sleeping Goddess strike, and I'll tell you which ones later. Use Fortissimo as often as possible for an easy free +50% damage increase. You should be able to generate enough tempo to do so via the natural 1 tempo per round and your ability to spend 1 performance round for 2 tempo.

    2. Improved Zeal for another +1 attack for your party, and Personality Fragment (Sympathetic). Once you can get Psicrystal Containment and Psicrystal Reservoir, you can regain your psionic focus once per round completely for free. That lets you use your Mission ability every round right now, and possibly Deep Impact or Improved Path of Dedication every round at higher levels. You could get Psionic Conviction instead of Improved Zeal to get those feats faster. You don't need Awakened Animus, because Sleeping Goddess isn't the best for your pure damage playstyle.

    3. The draw of Sleeping Goddess is that it has a lot of unique utility. You want to focus on damage, and Sleeping Goddess isn't the best at that, even with augments. Elemental Flux has some great stuff like Elemental Flux Stance and Energy Hammer, but it's still not the best option for damage. Focus on Scarlet Throne instead. Get utility maneuvers on your Rubato side and good strikes/boosts on your Zealot side. Your bread and butter combo at level 6 will be Aid Another + Power Attack + Rising Zenith Strike + Regal Blade. The idea is to stack your weapon die size and damage modifiers as high as you can, and multiply them with the Zenith series from Scarlet Throne. At level 7, use Noble Blade instead of Regal Blade. At level 9, Ruby Zenith Strike. Nothing else can compare for damage past this point. Royal Blade and Descending Sunset Strike are your final main pickups. Make sure you get access to Scarlet Throne on BOTH your Rubato and Zealot sides. Your Zealot side is the one that learns and uses the strikes and boosts, but having access to it on your Rubato side lets you use charisma instead of wisdom for Sense Motive thanks to Martial Performer.

    4. You mentioned your party already has a tank, so if they do their job well, you shouldn't have to be concerned about needing emergency self healing. Get Destruction so you and your party can ignore DR at will. The level 8 augments are both incredibly powerful for you. With the first augment, you can completely nuke a single target with raw damage, and with the second, you can Zenith combo more than just a single enemy per round!

    5. Greatsword. Actually, it doesn't really matter between Greatsword, Earthbreaker, or Greataxe. They all have the same damage die when enlarged even once. The Zenith strikes don't have a DC rider, so it doesn't matter if you use a discipline weapon or not. Don't pick Falchion, because your damage comes from die size and static damage modifiers, not critical hits.

    6. Get a wand of enlarge person or dorje of minor metamorphosis for low levels and UMD them when you know there's going to be a fight within the next minute. Get a dorje of metamorphosis (the 3rd level power) once you can afford it, so you can grow 2 sizes instead of 1. The bigger you are, the more damage you do per hit, and thus the more you multiply with Zenith strikes. Also, the more AoOs you get because of reach.

    For traits, get Adopted, Helpful (halfling), Battlefield Disciple, and Fools for Friends if allowed. Combined, they will make your Aid Another on yourself give you +6 to attack.

    Stack strength as much as possible. Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage, and Improved Eldritch Heritage with either Abyssal or Orc gives an inherent strength bonus. A 1 level dip in Bloodrager gives rage and a Protector familiar for massively increased durability. Or dip 1/2 levels of Wilder (raging surge) and enter the horrifically powerful Awakened Blade prestige class for huge improvements to your damage, attack, AC, saves, and action economy, not to mention manifesting and more power points.

    Hope that helps, have fun splatting faces! And have fun trying to keep track of everything

  22. - Top - End - #172
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Wow, thank you for all the great info! You are a Zealot encyclopedia!!

    If I'm not investing my tempo to boost strikes then is Rubato Bard really adding enough? The damage cycle you described is fantastic and my actions are all spoken for, so pre-combat buffs or a single round to get big might be the best thing to look for in a second class.

    Alchemist would provide Enlarge (and an extra hand to hold a shield), high reflex save, and Heroism at level 7. Not as efficient as Bard for free action boosts but it could add similar numbers.

    Or Psion (Egoist) would give me Metamorphosis, which is 6 minutes of +2 size categories (+4 STR, boost the greatsword 2D6) as well as a list of handy stuff like DR, fast healing, natural armor, or mobility. I could use a bonus feat on Improved Metamorphosis, which I believe would let me boost my strength up +8 total. I lose my reflex save, which might be a bad idea, but for pure damage I don't see a better way to buff myself before charging in and starting the Zenith Strike cycle.

    Rogue or Ninja adds +3D6 sneak attack, skills, and keeps the reflex save, but it's not going to scale as well as a caster. Soulknife (Gifted Blade) has the reflex save and Expansion, which can eat up all my PP to grow two sizes or at least stay large for a long time. The downside is that all those Blade Skills look mostly useless for a pure strength greatsword guy.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanPDX View Post
    Wow, thank you for all the great info! You are a Zealot encyclopedia!!

    If I'm not investing my tempo to boost strikes then is Rubato Bard really adding enough? The damage cycle you described is fantastic and my actions are all spoken for, so pre-combat buffs or a single round to get big might be the best thing to look for in a second class.

    Alchemist would provide Enlarge (and an extra hand to hold a shield), high reflex save, and Heroism at level 7. Not as efficient as Bard for free action boosts but it could add similar numbers.

    Or Psion (Egoist) would give me Metamorphosis, which is 6 minutes of +2 size categories (+4 STR, boost the greatsword 2D6) as well as a list of handy stuff like DR, fast healing, natural armor, or mobility. I could use a bonus feat on Improved Metamorphosis, which I believe would let me boost my strength up +8 total. I lose my reflex save, which might be a bad idea, but for pure damage I don't see a better way to buff myself before charging in and starting the Zenith Strike cycle.

    Rogue or Ninja adds +3D6 sneak attack, skills, and keeps the reflex save, but it's not going to scale as well as a caster. Soulknife (Gifted Blade) has the reflex save and Expansion, which can eat up all my PP to grow two sizes or at least stay large for a long time. The downside is that all those Blade Skills look mostly useless for a pure strength greatsword guy.
    I already mentioned methods of enlarging yourself before combat: UMD with wand of enlarge person, dorje of minor metamorphosis, or dorje of metamorphosis. They are well worth the cost, and you don't need to spend class levels on them. If you really want to enlarge yourself via your class and not wands, then Wilder-> Awakened Blade -> Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) is the best choice. Or you could be satisfied with the feat Unlocked Talent (minor metamorphosis).

    Level 6 is the best cutoff point for Rubato. The main things you're getting from it are +2 inspire competence, Fortissimo, and Martial Performance. Awakened Animus will give you a few more effective power points per day, so you need to decide for yourself if you're spending so many power points that it's worth a feat to use your excess tempo as more PP. After level 6, feel free to use that half of your gestalt on other class dips like the ones I already mentioned, or take a peek at the dipping section in my guide for more. MoMS monk and swashbuckler certainly wouldn't go amiss. Or dive headfirst into Awakened Blade!

    You can't use a shield larger than a buckler and also use Scarlet Throne maneuvers. It's probably not worth spending 2 levels on an extra hand for an alchemist. You can get the same effect by picking up Shield Focus (buckler) and Unhindering Shield.

    Don't worry about having a low reflex save. It just means you take a little extra damage in fights that feature AoE attacks, hardly a big deal. If you're really worried, grab Sanguine Perseverance, which lets you make a sense motive check in place of any saving throw. And remember, thanks to Martial Performance, you use charisma instead of wisdom for sense motive. You also have plenty of HP, and once you get Improved Path of Dedication at level 10 Zealot, you can immediately move yourself and the rest of your party out of the way of a fireball or breath weapon when you use Sanguine Perseverance (or any other applicable counter).

    Classes with sneak attack are often too lacking in other useful class features, and require too much movement and tactical maneuvering for a frontline facesmasher. Soulknife is likewise pretty lackluster in terms of features.

    Glad I could be of help Let me know if you need moar!

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Guide Update Notes:
    (Ability Scores & Fighting Style) Added recommendations at the end for ability score distribution
    (Dipping) Added Exciter/Fractured Mind Spiritualist
    (Dipping) Added Urban Bloodrager as an option for Bloodrager
    (Dipping) Added Scaled Fist Monk
    (Prestige Classes) Added Umbral Blade
    (Disciplines and Maneuvers) Fool's Errand has been fully released and is no longer in playtest
    (Sample Builds) Made the Bronze Boar even more disgusting, and added details on what he does at later levels

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Simple Zealot Build Help

    First things first. THANKS for all the work you've put into this guide @Castilonium! I've read a lot of guides and this is a really good one. Would love to see you take on the harbinger next! And thank you to Upho and everyone else who has contributed frequently and thoughtfully along the way.

    With that taken care of, I'm posting to request some build help with a Zealot I'm hoping to play in my group's next campaign (should begin in about a month). Before I get to the build, there are a few important things to consider that should be factored into any advice offered.

    Spoiler: Considerations
    Show
    • 1. My DM has agreed to allow 3PP content as long as he has access to the materials for review. That being said, I want to be very cautious with this character and not get 3PP materials bonked with the ban hammer for seeming too OP. I already optimize the most in our group and can tend to overshadow the other players. For that reason, I want this character to be focused on a protection/control tanking style vs. a damage dealing style.
    • 2. While I consider myself a reasonably experienced player, there feels like a lot of built in complexity in this class (with great potential for it to get even more complex). So for this 'starter' zealot, I'd like to keep things pretty simple in the hopes that this will allow me to have a good handle on my character and his abilities and not slow down play at the table. Again...I fear the ban hammer.
    • 3. I'm open to making big changes or small changes, to dipping, to whatever really...but keeping in mind the goals of relative ease of play, a focus on making the group shine and keeping it safe, and not frustrating my DM!


    Spoiler: Half-Giant Protection Zealot
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    Starting Attributes
    Strength: 17 (15 + 2 racial)
    Dexterity: 10
    Constitution: 14
    Intelligence: 8
    Wisdom: 10
    Charisma: 16

    Traits (getting 3 by taking a flaw)
    Alternate Racial Traits: Liberty or Death & Psionic Resonance
    - Adopted (Helpful)
    - Community Minded
    - Blade of Mercy

    Feats and Class Abilities (Favored class bonuses going to 1/4 conviction)
    1F: Discipline Focus (Eternal Guardian)
    2C: Combat Conviction --> Enforcer (Horsechopper)
    3F: Extra Conviction --> Impulsive Reactions
    4C: Personality Fragment (+3 to Intimidate)
    5F: Bodyguard
    6C: Psionic Conviction --> Unlocked Talent (Minor Metamorphosis)
    7F: Pikeman's Training
    8C: Improved Zeal
    9F: Psicrystal Containment
    10C: Path of Dedication
    11F: Psicrystal Reservoir
    12C: Path of Dedication, Improved
    13F: Discipline Mastery
    14C: Strike of Unity
    15F: Advanced Study
    16C: Combat Conviction --> Advanced Study


    Edit: Lots of reordering of feats and convictions to maximize effectiveness at each level
    Last edited by applied_people; 2017-06-11 at 03:12 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Sorry I missed your question, applied_people. I'll help you over on your thread.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: Simple Zealot Build Help

    EDIT: Moved post to the thread mentioned by Castilonium. /EDIT
    Last edited by upho; 2017-06-12 at 02:16 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Humongous update!

    Guide Update Notes:
    (General): Info from the PoW Errata, Akashic Mysteries, Divergent Paths: Fool's Errand, Divergent Paths: Medic, Rajah playtest, Radiant Dawn playtest, Highlord playtest, Bloodforge, and Lords of the Wild playtest added
    (General): Improved the look and organization of the Outline on the left
    (Ability Scores & Fighting Style): Laser Beams updated to include info about Radiant Dawn and Sun's Gleam
    (Ability Scores & Fighting Style): Added Mounted fighting style
    (Races): Divided into subsections and added the "Bloodforge and Other DSP Races" subsection
    (Paizo Races): Added Half-Elf and Gnome
    (Bloodforge and Other DSP Races): Added Alicorn, Grendle, Kestrel, and Kijin
    (Class Features): Personality Fragment and Echoes of Steel are purple because you can use Echoes of Steel to give your psicrystal maneuvers!
    (Feats): Added "Other Dreamscarred Press Feats" subsection
    (Path of War & Expanded Feats): Added Lurker in Darkness, Ranged Martial Power, and updated Weapon Group Adaptation
    (Style Feats): Added Chimera Soul Style and Radiant Dawn Style
    (Psionic Feats): Added Collective Focus, Enlarged Collective, Looming Presence, and Opportunistic Conscription
    (Paizo Feats): Added Martial Focus, Cut from the Air, Smash from the Air, and Wasp Familiar
    (Other Dreamscarred Press Feats): Added LOTS!
    (Traits): Organized by trait type, and added Mixed Blood and Voices of Solid Things
    (Dipping): Added info on the Mauler familiar archetype to Bloodrager, added Rajah, and updated Warlord (Privateer)
    (Equipment): Added FAQs explaining the scorpion whip and discipline weapon rules, and added Weapon Modifications
    (Wondrous Items): Added Banner of the Scarlet Rose and Gloves of Arcane Striking
    (Disciplines & Maneuvers): Info from PoW Errata applied to all disciplines
    (Disciplines & Maneuvers): Added Chimera Soul (playtest) and Radiant Dawn (playtest)!
    (Sample Builds): New builds! Bosun Cobalt Damianos, AoO Zealot; Ship’s Doctor Jubilation Sunheart, healer and laser beam Zealot; Lookout Yumi, mounted long range archery Zealot! Also, updated Dread Captain Alexandra

    And there's probably a lot of other stuff I forgot! As always, please give me suggestions on what else I should put in the guide!

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Great as always!

    One thing I would like to point out about Fool's Errand. The text forbidding the use of other weapons is "A character cannot substitute other weapons for the additional unarmed strikes granted by Fool’s Errand maneuvers". This would mean that Lesson II and Lesson V could be used with other weapons as they do not grant additional unarmed attacks, only modify the ones you can already make.

    Edit: Also, there is an item printed in both Roil Dancer and PsiAug Kineticists that is great for Mithral Current. The Flicker Gauntlet is a short-term glove of storage that allows the item to be stored or retrieved as a free action, and it only costs 1k. It lets you always draw your weapon for a negligible cost.

    I also notice that you point out the issue with switching elements for Elemental Flux without noting the easiest way to do it. As a psionic character, whenever you refocus, you can change both your active energy type and active element. This is likely to be a move action for you, making things a bit better.
    Last edited by TiaC; 2017-07-09 at 02:02 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Unity and Determination: Castilonium’s guide to the Path of War Zealot

    Hi TiaC!

    Looks like you're right about Lesson II and Lesson V. But in order to take advantage of that, you'd need to grab Ascetic Style. It'd make for a bit more damage at low levels with Lesson II, but I don't think it'd be worth using for Lesson V.

    I don't think retrieving an item from the Flicker Gauntlet counts as drawing, and storing one doesn't count as sheathing for the purpose of Mithral Current stuff. The description doesn't use the words draw or sheathe, it uses retrieve and store.

    Ooooooh, you're right that regaining your psionic focus lets you switch your active energy type and thus active element! That's a super useful tidbit, thanks a bunch! Now a Zealot with Psicrystal Reservoir or Overpowering Optimism probably doesn't have to worry about picking up Elemental Flux Style!

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