Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread V: Golarion Strikes Back

[Cieyrin]

A 242 Going by Flesh Wall, which says a 5 foot square, 2 foot thick wall of flesh has 12 hit points, and that Walls of Stone are 1 inch per 4 CL, I would surmise that a Wall of Stone that has been effected by Stone to Flesh has 1 hit point per 2 inches for each 5 foot square section. That's the best I can do, as flesh isn't otherwise listed with hit points per inch or hardness.

[TheFamilarRaven]

A 243: That I've found there are no spells or items that reduced ACP specifically for the purposes of stealth. However as you mentioned certain armor enhancements can mitigate the penalty.

Other options include the spell Masterwork Transformation which can make a piece of armor masterwork (reducing ACP by 1), or Effortless Armor. Another, (probably better choice) is Invisibility

As for armor enhancements, the Comfort property can reduce ACP by 1

[Cieyrin]

Q 244 The Manteau of the Mouse has a 1/day Beast Shape III for turning into a mouse, implying Mice are Diminutive. I can't find any mice stats, are they out there?

[TheFamilarRaven]

A 244 There is no monster entry for mice. This is probably a oversight. Instead, gain the abilities of a rat, (Lowlight vision, scent) and apply the benefits of the diminutive animal form as per Beast Shape III.

Q 245 A diviner wizard gain the ability to act in a surprise round with their Forewarned ability. Does this mean whenever the wizard is caught in a surprise round, they may act after the creature(s) who initiated the the surprise round? Or does it force the creature(s) initiating the surprise round to roll initiative, and gives the wizard the chance to beat that initiative?

Q 246a As a basic Warpriest, can you use Two Weapon Fighting with unarmed strikes. (Assuming he has Improved Unarmed strikes, TWF etc).

Q 246b If a warpriest can TWF with unarmed strikes, and Unarmed Strikes are his Sacred Weapon, when he uses his level 4 ability to enhance his sacred weapon (e.g his unarmed Strikes) does the benefit apply to just "main hand" unarmed strikes or to both "main hand" and "off hand" unarmed strikes?

[Florian]

A245: Both. You can always act in a surprise round and you can roll for initiative, potentially beating your attacker at it, maybe even preventing the attack that triggered foresight in the first place. Note that this ability works on a meta-game level and needs communication between the participants.

A246b: Normally, IUS turns your whole body into a "weapon". Incidentally, that´s why a AoMF is more expensive than a regular weapon enhancement. Unlike Flurry of Blows, using regular TWF forces you to declare an abstract "main" and "off" "weapon", even if that is, using IUS, your body.
So while an AoMF would work, as does the basic damage dice increase from Sacred Weapon, you do have to allocate the enhancement bonus on your "main" or "off", no matter if it´s headbutt, fist or knee. (Had to edit this, my first version didn't´t bring the point across)

[Psyren]

A245 correction: Remember that even if there is a surprise round, everybody rolls initiative, whether they can act or not. That is step 1 of the combat cycle:

How Combat Works

Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:

1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.

3. After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to being the first normal round of combat.

4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).

5. When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.

In other words, your Forewarned wizard rolls initiative like everyone else. But when the surprise round happens, even if she was unaware of her opponents, she gets to use her initiative and act. Depending on what she rolled, that might mean she acts before or after the ambushing enemy.

A246a: Yes, you can TWF with Unarmed Strikes in PF. (You cannot however combine TWF and Flurry, if you are a Sacred Fist.)

A246b correction: You still only have one unarmed strike, you are simply allowed to TWF with it. You do not have to enhance it twice.

[Florian]

A245 correction: Remember that even if there is a surprise round, everybody rolls initiative, whether they can act or not. That is step 1 of the combat cycle:



In other words, your Forewarned wizard rolls initiative like everyone else. But when the surprise round happens, even if she was unaware of her opponents, she gets to use her initiative and act. Depending on what she rolled, that might mean she acts before or after the ambushing enemy.

A246a: Yes, you can TWF with Unarmed Strikes in PF. (You cannot however combine TWF and Flurry, if you are a Sacred Fist.)

A246b correction: You still only have one unarmed strike, you are simply allowed to TWF with it. You do not have to enhance it twice.

Psyren, small corrections.

"Forewarned" is a hard ability to handle RAW. We would have to build up a resolution chain like a M:tG stack and would find us in dispute of the trigger condition.

You´re wrong with your judgement on 246B. The class feature is self-contained and by itself handles the difference between main and off. The "weapon" being the same, in this case IUS, doesn´t change it, as it wouldn't´t a double-sword.

[Psyren]

Forewarned is not difficult at all if you read the rules I quoted. Everyone rolls initiative, you check if there is a surprise round, and if there is then only those with surprise (and those who can act in a surprise round) can use theirs. It's quite simple.

For unarmed strike, I disagree with your ruling and your analogy. Double-weapons explicitly count as two separate weapons for enhancement purposes; unarmed strike does not. If you cast Magic Weapon on a Brawler, you would not have to cast it twice to enhance "both strikes" - you only need to cast it once.

[Florian]

Forewarned is not difficult at all if you read the rules I quoted. Everyone rolls initiative, you check if there is a surprise round, and if there is then only those with surprise (and those who can act in a surprise round) can use theirs. It's quite simple.

For unarmed strike, I disagree with your ruling and your analogy. Double-weapons explicitly count as two separate weapons for enhancement purposes; unarmed strike does not. If you cast Magic Weapon on a Brawler, you would not have to cast it twice to enhance "both strikes" - you only need to cast it once.

Forewarned or similar abilities have a bit of a problem as they can create a kind of a paradox. You have a trigger and when you act before that trigger actually happens, you could actually negate the trigger condition, then forwarded would not have triggered in the first place.
It can only ever work without creating a paradox when the actions taken by the triggering participants would be "locked" and they would be bound to take the action in the surprise round, no matter how the situation changed. That is the missing RAW component here.

As for the other point, I fear that you´re mixing general and specific on this one.
Yes, IUS makes the whole body count as "a/one weapon", making it the sole legal target for spells like "magic fang" or similar effects that target "one creature" or "one weapon" and yes, you´re pretty free to describe what part of the body you use as part of an attack.

But: If you do have specific natural attacks or if you use basic TWF, you must break that down into specific sub-sets of weapons, in the case of TWF it´s "Attack A" and "Attack B", even if you use the same "body". So an Inquisitor still must get the Double Bane feat to activate Bane for both sides of the TWF, and a Warpriest must activate Sacred Weapon twice, to affect both sides.

[Calthropstu]

Looks like this might need a thread.
Forwarned, RAW, works exactly as Psyren claimed. There are subtle nuances that need gm call, but raw psyren is correct.

For the twf unarmed strike, raw is quite clear to me... Amulet of Mighty Fists applies to "unarmed strikes."
If you twf with unarmed strike, is the second offhand attack an unarmed strike? Yes. Therefore the amulet applies. It is unambiguous. Same with IUS.

[Florian]

Looks like this might need a thread.
Forwarned, RAW, works exactly as Psyren claimed. There are subtle nuances that need gm call, but raw psyren is correct.

For the twf unarmed strike, raw is quite clear to me... Amulet of Mighty Fists applies to "unarmed strikes."
If you twf with unarmed strike, is the second offhand attack an unarmed strike? Yes. Therefore the amulet applies. It is unambiguous. Same with IUS.

You need a gm judgement call, then an ability can´t be resolved by RAW.

And please re-read the Warpriest issue. It is not about the AoMF, as that is unambiguous, it is about the weapon-enhancement feature of that class and how that interacts with TWF.

[Griffin]

Q247

Hi there guys, last session we have a small discussion regarding jumping. The rules say that you need a running start or the DCs double, however, what does it mean to have a running start? does it mean that I have to use the run action to have a running start or simply by moving 10 feet is enough?

Thanks!

[Psyren]

You need a gm judgement call, then an ability can´t be resolved by RAW.

And please re-read the Warpriest issue. It is not about the AoMF, as that is unambiguous, it is about the weapon-enhancement feature of that class and how that interacts with TWF.

The "weapon" is unarmed strike, per the weapons table.

As mentioned, if you want to debate this further, make a thread and I'll be happy to head there.

A247: Per Acrobatics, a "running start" just means you need 10ft. of space before making the check. This does not change the "Action" section of the Acrobatics skill linked above, therefore you can do the "running start" as part of whatever action you're using to move, just like any other Acrobatics check. Therefore, despite the name, you don't need the actual Run action to get a running start.

[Florian]

As mentioned, if you want to debate this further, make a thread and I'll be happy to head there.

I would like to, but I refrain from it so far. Reason is that I´m locked into using the mobile version of this site and can´t tag or using premade tags when starting a topic. You know what un-tagged threads will lead to.

[ellindsey]

Q248: What's the ruling on using an item to gain feats to qualify for a prestige class?

Let's say that I take a single-level dip of Sorcerer with the Impossible Bloodline. I also get my hands on a Robe of Arcane Heritage. This grants me the bloodline powers of a sorcerer of 5 levels higher, which for the Impossible Bloodline includes Craft Wondrous Items as a bonus feat. Now, say I want to take a level of the Arcane Savant prestige class, which requires at least one crafting feat as a prerequisite. Does the crafting feat from the robe count for meeting that requirement? And what happens if I later take off or otherwise lose the robe? Do the levels of Arcane Savant vanish, or am I merely forbidden from taking any more?

[TheFamilarRaven]

Looks like this might need a thread.

I created a thread for the TWF and Sacred Weapon question. You can find it here.

[TheFamilarRaven]

A 248

Yes, the robe provides a constant effect, which (in your example), would grant you the Craft Wondrous Item feat, which could allow you to meet the prerequisite for Arcane Savant. Much like a Belt of Strength could allow you to qualify for Power Attack, (after 24 hours).

However, what happens when you lose that feat after taking a level in Arcane Savant is a little muddled. Feats specifically say that you lose the benefit of a feat if you lose its prerequisite, but not the feat itself. However, there is no such wording for prestige classes.

Instead it seems as though the only penalty is not being able to level up in that class.

Prestige classes allow characters to become truly exceptional, gaining powers beyond the ken of their peers. Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class. Characters that take levels in prestige classes do not gain any favored class bonuses for those levels.

Relevant sentences bolded.

Thus, you must have access to the feat before you gain any benefit of gaining a level to take a level in, but there is no written penalty for losing the feat in regards to accessing current Prestige Class abilities. But you cannot gain another level in the Prestige Class until you gain the prerequisite back.

[Getsugaru]

Q 249: Upon reviewing the Tengu in the Bestiary, I noticed that their text states, and I quote, "Tengus with high Intelligence scores can choose any language as a bonus language."¹ This lead me to be curious if this meant they could technically learn Druidic without any Druid levels. Upon returning to the Core Rulebook, I found the line stating Druidism as, "a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid."² These seem as if they conflict with each other on the "specific trumps generic" rule system, but other species that can learn practically any language, such as Humans, state that they "can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic)."³ Therefore, I must ask the forums for help: can a Tengu pick Druidic as a bonus language even without any Druid levels?

---

* Note: Both copies of the Bestiary and Core Rulebook I am referring to are early-run, and therefore I am unaware of if they were subsequently changed in later prints. Likewise, I could find no Errata stating such a change in my admittedly-quick searching.
¹Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 263, under "Tengu Characters"; "Languages"
²Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook 50, under "Bonus Languages"
³Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook 27, under "Human Racial Traits"

[Psyren]

A249: Under Linguistics, Druidic specifically states:

Druidic (druids only)

Note that no other language on the list has the "only" prohibition.

[Florian]

In core "Druidic" is the only example of a "secret language". The expanded material has other examples of "secret languages", like the thieves cant of a specific guild or the "formal language" of a secret society that are not covered by linguistics and need membership to be learnable.

[Cieyrin]

Q 250 If a dancing vicious weapon is loosed, who, if anyone, suffers the backlash damage from a successful hit from vicious? The weapon? The wielder who isn't wielding it currently?

[upho]

A 250: Seems there's no clear answer to this in the rules. However, the vicious description says: "...it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder." So if the weapon isn't wielded, I'd say the logical conclusion is that there simply is no "flash of disruptive energy", meaning the vicious ability just doesn't work on a dancing weapon. Which also would've been the case if the vicious weapon had been thrown, by the way (vicious doesn't work on ranged).

[Florian]

A 2050 addendum: The problem resolving this is the very ambiguous word "wield" here.
Key is "The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the activating character for all maneuvers and effects that target items". Conclusion is that you never actually stop to "wield" it for rules purposes.

[MizuDevil]

Q251:
Questiob about prestige class Evangelist and his ability:

Spoiler: Aligned Class (Ex)

Show

Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.

If I choice a spellcaster class will I increase caster level, spells per day and gain new spells level when level-up Evangelist?
If I have Smite ability will damage from it also increase with evangelist level?

[Florian]

A251: Evangelist advances absolutely everything of the keyed class, beginning at 2nd level.

[Zhentarim]

Q252: Can a paladin take greater mercy at level 1?

[Florian]

A252: Nope. You only get Mercy at 3rd, but that´s a prerequisite for Greater Mercy.

[unseenmage]

Q253
Would a Simulacrum of an Awaken Construct-ed creature be intelligent or not?
Rules source or FAQ would be appreciated on this one thank you.

Q254
Assuming Trompe L'oeil paintings are made with the subject present, can one create a Trompe L'oeil of an Awaken Construct-ed version of something?

[Palanan]

Q255:

Is two-weapon fighting always a full-round attack?

I had thought you could take a move action and then make a TWF attack, but I’ve been told that’s not correct. I don’t see anything one way or the other in the feat description, nor in the Two-Weapon Fighting section on p. 202 of the CRB.

So, is TWF restricted to a full-round attack, and if so could I get a rules citation?

[zergling.exe]

A 255
It's in the the rules for full-round actions:

Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.