General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[fishyfishyfishy]

Martin Ericcson published a blog post this morning that he's left paradox. Seems that he's been let go.

[The Jack]

Because as we all know, the Old World of Darkness wasn't Americentric in the slightest.

Indeed, but that's not the problem here

Honestly, I say a more European World of Darkness, or one with a different viewpoint isn't strictly a bad thing.

See, here's the thing; Europe isn't Sweden. Europe is a diverse collection of high-functioning nations, total dumps and all things imbetween. Sweden is like the high point of egalitarian niceness; I'd argue it's too nice. It's the kinda place where you can leave gold bars on the floor and trust that nobody'd steal them, where democracy is transparent and the extreme viewpoints are 'I think we should be a little meaner as a nation' and 'let's ban planes and ride horse*' because most of their serious problems are solved. Other European nations have far more problems. Britain's a ****hole, France is as bad, Poland is a beautiful land that they all seem to want to escape, and a lot of countries are just worse. Europe isn't some magical land devoid of all the US's problems (OK, the US has a lot of unique twists to their problems, but europeans have a lot of those problems to one degree or another) A properly Eurocentric World of Darkness wouldn't be so different from an American centric World of Darkness, but a Swedish world of darkness would suck Swedish meatballs.

*genuine view of one landlord, who was high-functioning crazy.


The only problem, I think, with the WoD's 'western centric' model is that they've made east Asia borderline unplayable and Australia weird and difficult. Also the wendigo are dumb as balls. Europe+ Colonies and west asia are easily adaptable from base rules and any understanding of how those places work normally.

I don't know where you're from, but I'm accusing you of an american-centric view on Europe.

And honestly, I see the same 'strong elite prey among the weak commons' as in the old books, there's just also now a firm middle group

They've always done that, but they had the pyramid scheme in mind when they did it; it was organic, natural, it was nature!

Now they've done and gone blasted all those pyramids. We're all in active rebelion... that's not how things work, so it rings hollow.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: There is a very fine line regarding politics that it might behoove people to consider.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't know where you're from, but I'm accusing you of an american-centric view on Europe.

*sips tea, picks up choccy biccie*

They've always done that, but they had the pyramid scheme in mind when they did it; it was organic, natural, it was nature!

Now they've done and gone blasted all those pyramids. We're all in active rebelion... that's not how things work, so it rings hollow.

I'm really not reading the same thingd as you are, but as I said, it's a soft reboot (really a hard reboot in all but name) that the designers can't be bothered to admit it's a reboot. And honestly doing a reboot was probably the right thing, they just should have admitted that's what they were doing.

But a lot of what I'm hearing is 'they changed it now it sucks'. Which is fine, there's a lot there I don't like (House Carna, Duskborn), but I'm willing to give them a few more books before declaring it's ruined forever.

(I mean, I still think OPP's V4 sounded like a better continuation, but V5 isn't, say, 1e Requiem.)

[The Jack]

*sips tea, picks up choccy biccie*

Pssh, representation in eurovision doesn't make you european.

---

A slightly different interpretation of the same thing is grounds for war or at least endless moaning; See Star Wars, or Halo, or Alien films, or DC.

I dig some stuff from V5
You are what you eat's a good idea.
They use Metric more.
Gang tags for vampires was a smart section, and I did appreciate going into detail on the neo-fuedal trappings of vampire society.

But V20, for all it's flaws, is leaps and bounds better than V5

[LibraryOgre]

So, slightly silly:

What level of Entropy to win the lottery?

[Anonymouswizard]

So, slightly silly:

What level of Entropy to win the lottery?

How big a win? Are we talking a Jackpot win, or one of those '£10 for two numbers' things that the lottery does over here?

In all seriousness, 2 dots (in 2e) will give you the theoretically ability to do it. It explicitly gives the ability to control chance, it just points out that a vanishingly unlikely outcome will require a vanishing unlikely number of successes.

So the real question is, what level of Arte do you need to win the lottery every other week without ritual casting?

[The Jack]

Just want to get second opinions: werewolf tribes could loosely* be associated with big cultural groups (Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Kurgan, Mediterranean, Aridomerican, Inuit, North african)

*Broad generalization and a degree of racism are a feature, not a bug. Let's imagine I'm a 19th century scholar trying to make latent his racism so he can present his research to the politically correct next generation. Useful to storytellers but not quite right; Inaccurate but enticing.

So a minor question that came out of this was "Best way to culture-group differentiate Shadow Lords from Silver Fangs and Black Furies." One thing I find interesting is that if you look at halotypes and history you'll find that the shadow lords are associated with the areas of europe that've been the most contested and are thus ethnically and linguistically diverse; Maybe that's why the tribe is so Darwinist? Is this accidental or deep genius on the part of old white wolf?
I think I'm settling on "Kurgan", but Vinca was up there.

My main question was, however
To an outsider, What's CoG culture? Vague hippy everyperson type stuff, sure, but how does a scholar stratify that in context with everything else?

Neo-lithic (not to be confused with neolithic)?
Anarcho-primitives?
Primitivists?

Anyone got any better classifications? That aren't explicitly about how much they suck as a tribe


*for those wondering; The scholar has yet to differentiate between Ronin,BGs,GWs and BSDs; they're all 'corrupt and unorthodox pariahs'. other tribes haven't been noticed.

[LibraryOgre]

How big a win? Are we talking a Jackpot win, or one of those '£10 for two numbers' things that the lottery does over here?

In all seriousness, 2 dots (in 2e) will give you the theoretically ability to do it. It explicitly gives the ability to control chance, it just points out that a vanishingly unlikely outcome will require a vanishing unlikely number of successes.

So the real question is, what level of Arte do you need to win the lottery every other week without ritual casting?

Would Entropy 1 be enough to pick the right numbers?

[darkblade]

My main question was, however
To an outsider, What's CoG culture? Vague hippy everyperson type stuff, sure, but how does a scholar stratify that in context with everything else?

Neo-lithic (not to be confused with neolithic)?
Anarcho-primitives?
Primitivists?

Anyone got any better classifications? That aren't explicitly about how much they suck as a tribe

Tribebooks say the Children of Gaia originally came out of the middle east. Nothing interesting has been done with it but it's something.

*for those wondering; The scholar has yet to differentiate between Ronin,BGs,GWs and BSDs; they're all 'corrupt and unorthodox pariahs'. other tribes haven't been noticed.

As a side note The Warders of Man (Pre-Rail and City Spirit Glass Walkers) were one of the oldest tribes coming out of China alongside the Stargazers. The Red Talons are one of the younger tribes coming into recognition at some vague time after the end of the impergium along with the Bone Gnawers.

[Anonymouswizard]

Would Entropy 1 be enough to pick the right numbers?

Maybe? There is a lot of overlap with Entropy 1 and Entropy 2, the practical difference being that Entropy 2 is a lot more reliable and precise. If I was running then I'd say Entropy 1 means you 'win' a small prize, while Entropy 2 will allow you to win the Jackpot (but be careful not to draw the Technocracy's attention with that, switch lotteries a lot and don't win too much).

Honestly? While it might allow a player to quickly jump up to Resources 4/5 the same is true of half the Spheres, and Entropy 2 gives a lot of more sustainable ways to attain high levels of Resources. Once the players reach Arete 3/4 I'd honestly just assume that they have the resources to buy anything that isn't absurdly expensive, they can probably live comfortably middle class and magick up money or resources as needed.

[sktarq]

Maybe? There is a lot of overlap with Entropy 1 and Entropy 2, the practical difference being that Entropy 2 is a lot more reliable and precise. If I was running then I'd say Entropy 1 means you 'win' a small prize, while Entropy 2 will allow you to win the Jackpot (but be careful not to draw the Technocracy's attention with that, switch lotteries a lot and don't win too much).

For time and range issues I would think that hitting up your local casino may be easier in a lot of ways.

the best part of a lotto ticket would not be in ritual picking (or ritual driving if the draw is after the players numbers are auto-picked and the ritual is making the numbers match what you have (harder)) which could help you control the side effects...
....for larger Powerball type events that have lower odds you may need higher than Entropy 2 and while you could probably pull it off once just fine I'd recommend you quit thereafter (because the IRS types will be interested in a way that will set off all kinds of secret subsystems and frnkly what are you buying to need more at this point)

but developing a ritual around a "lucky charm" (blow on/kiss your cross before rolling your dice, pulling the one armed bandit etc) wouldn't actually stand out too much to all but the technocracy.

[Grytorm]

Hello again. Coming to you with two newish thoughts about Mage the Awakening that nobody will care about because it is trying to define the ineffable or suggest a possibility where cannon is left blank for storytellers to decide.

First Atlantis wasn't a paradise, in the time of Atlantis a lot of the mundane bad stuff was still around. People could still abuse their power, mundane suffering was part of reality. But it wasn't until the Exarchs ascended did these things become part of the Supernal. Their actions is part of why the Chronicles setting sucks for a lot of people, torment is written into the fabric of existence. I recognize that parts of this are likely unoriginal.

Second Atlantis when Atlantis hadn't not happened yet it was located somewhere in West Africa or Madagascar. This idea doesn't feel that great now but I thought of these places because I wanted them to be close enough to the Nameless Empire to have interacted in the history that never happened but nowhere that could be too closely associated with Western Europe.

[Milo v3]

Hello again. Coming to you with two newish thoughts about Mage the Awakening that nobody will care about because it is trying to define the ineffable or suggest a possibility where cannon is left blank for storytellers to decide.

First Atlantis wasn't a paradise, in the time of Atlantis a lot of the mundane bad stuff was still around. People could still abuse their power, mundane suffering was part of reality. But it wasn't until the Exarchs ascended did these things become part of the Supernal. Their actions is part of why the Chronicles setting sucks for a lot of people, torment is written into the fabric of existence. I recognize that parts of this are likely unoriginal.

Second Atlantis when Atlantis hadn't not happened yet it was located somewhere in West Africa or Madagascar. This idea doesn't feel that great now but I thought of these places because I wanted them to be close enough to the Nameless Empire to have interacted in the history that never happened but nowhere that could be too closely associated with Western Europe.

Is this for 1e? Because in 2e Atlantis didn't happen in a place. Atlantis is more an idea now. You can find Ruins from Before anywhere in the world, all of which appearing to have had completely different cultures. Also yeah, atlantis != paradise makes sense, since it's meant to be a cautionary tale about what not to do.

[One Tin Soldier]

Is this for 1e? Because in 2e Atlantis didn't happen in a place. Atlantis is more an idea now. You can find Ruins from Before anywhere in the world, all of which appearing to have had completely different cultures. Also yeah, atlantis != paradise makes sense, since it's meant to be a cautionary tale about what not to do.

Personally, I interpret it more as "Atlantis was a place, or at least a society, but when the Fall happened it was removed from all of history." In that interpretation, the Ruins are more like echoes of Atlantean possibilities. They reflect timelines that could have become Atlantis, and so draw from wildly different time periods and regions because that is where/when Atlantis would have come to pass in that timeline.

[Morty]

It seems that Hunter: the Vigil 2E has reached the "manuscript approval" stage, so maybe we'll see a Kickstarter soon. One hopes. Hunter is the reason I got into nWoD to begin with.

[Jeivar]

I have a couple of mechanics questions about Masquerade.

I don't own V5, but I am hoping to get a V4 game started in the near-ish future, with some modest homebrew changes.

Do we agree that the old version of Celerity, one extra move per dot, was massively overpowered when it came to combat? I mean, I couldn't take the warrior Salubri terribly seriously as these badass demon hunters because they don't have it, and Valeren just kind of sucks. On the other hand, reducing Celerity to just adding to your initiative and movement speed seems to gimp it a touch much.

Second issue: Just how does Humanity/Breaking Points work in V5? I was never fond of the universality of old the Humanity system, and I know V5 dispenses with it. But how?

[fishyfishyfishy]

Do we agree that the old version of Celerity, one extra move per dot, was massively overpowered when it came to combat? I mean, I couldn't take the warrior Salubri terribly seriously as these badass demon hunters because they don't have it, and Valeren just kind of sucks. On the other hand, reducing Celerity to just adding to your initiative and movement speed seems to gimp it a touch much.

My house rule for Celerity made it function like Fortitude and Potence in Dark Ages V20. You may spend a point of blood to turn the bonus dice into auto successes on a single action. Since it's Dark Ages V20, you may only get 1 attack a round regardless of how many multiple actions you take. These things combined mean that folks can guarantee one hit with blood expenditure and maybe one guaranteed dodge/parry too. Nothing you couldn't already do with Willpower and it's still based on a roll and enough successes by an opponent can still negate their action.

Second issue: Just how does Humanity/Breaking Points work in V5? I was never fond of the universality of old the Humanity system, and I know V5 dispenses with it. But how?

If you're gonna use another humanity system go with the one from Requiem 2e. It's by far the best version. That's clearly where they drew inspiration for V5 but kinda failed to implement some of the nuances that make it a fully functional system.

[Jeivar]

My house rule for Celerity made it function like Fortitude and Potence in Dark Ages V20. You may spend a point of blood to turn the bonus dice into auto successes on a single action. Since it's Dark Ages V20, you may only get 1 attack a round regardless of how many multiple actions you take.

Ahh, that's an interesting rule.

If you're gonna use another humanity system go with the one from Requiem 2e. It's by far the best version. That's clearly where they drew inspiration for V5 but kinda failed to implement some of the nuances that make it a fully functional system.

Wellll... I don't have Requiem either...

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Here's some info to help you jury-rig to something closer:

Humanity in V:tR is a 10-dot range, starts at 7, and losing control of your character at 0. At Humanity 9-10, you get +2 to relating with humans, 0 at 7-8, -1 at 5-6, -2 at 4, -3 at 3, -5 at 2, and only chance die available at 1. Breaking points relate to anything that reminds you that you're not human. At Humanity 7, the starting level, this can be something like hurting somebody for blood, at Humanity 9 something as easy as watching a human eat a meal, but down to Humanity 2 it's something really dark like spending an entire year without human contact, or seeing a culture that didn't exist when you were alive. You ignore all Breaking Points for Humanity levels higher than yours. This does also include killing as a Breaking Point ranging from Humanity 4 to Humanity 1.

When you hit a Breaking Point, you make a Detachment Roll to see if you're able to get past this point without losing empathy for mortals. The roll here is pretty set in stone: each Breaking Point level has a set number of dice: 5 (Humanity 10-9), 4 (Humanity 8-7), 3 (Humanity 6-4), 2 (Humanity 4-3), 1 (Humanity 2), or 0 (Humanity 1). There's very little to alter this: you can act to protect either your Mask or your Dirge (archetypes representing your face to the world and your inner self, respectively), or you can make sure you have 1 or more Touchstones. Like much of V:tR 2e, no matter what happens with the roll you get a Condition, a tiny temporary effect on your character's psyche that gives you experience for acting along with it. Some can be useful (like Inspired for getting an exceptional success), but others can be harmful (like Jaded for a dramatic failure).

Touchstones are people (usually, rarely they can be mementos) that remind you what it was like to be Human. For younger vampires, they're often someone from when they were alive. Interacting with Touchstones is a good way to regain Willpower, but they also prevent Humanity backsliding pretty dramatically. Having a single Touchstone gives +2 to Detachment rolls, but NOT having one gives a -2, so that's a 4-dice jump! Having multiple gives +3.

Banes are a way of ignoring a specific breaking point. When you lose a Humanity from a breaking point, you can take a Humanity and some experience to take a Bane for that specific breaking point. Each bane gives a -1 to all Detachment rolls, but you get to ignore a potentially common breaking point (like murder). Banes give some other weakness to your character, always one from vampire folklore: confusion at crossroads, repulsion to garlic, hurt by the sound of bells, has difficulty feeding from the pure at heart, or similar.

Edit: a lot of other mechanics play off Humanity as well: Clan Banes get worse as you get lower in Humanity, as does weakness to sunlight. It also effects your ability to cast Blood Sorcery spells.

[Jeivar]

Thanks.

Banes are a way of ignoring a specific breaking point. When you lose a Humanity from a breaking point, you can take a Humanity and some experience to take a Bane for that specific breaking point. Each bane gives a -1 to all Detachment rolls, but you get to ignore a potentially common breaking point (like murder). Banes give some other weakness to your character, always one from vampire folklore: confusion at crossroads, repulsion to garlic, hurt by the sound of bells, has difficulty feeding from the pure at heart, or similar.

I see. I was under the impression that the new system was more customised. I guess this whole Bane system is what gave me the idea. It's just always kind of bothered me that, say, a mobster can be embraced, then in about a month of being a mobster he can degenerate into a mindless, slavering monster.

I'm guessing a Brujah Anarch living in contested territory that he regularly has to fight for will take a Bane for violence?

[fishyfishyfishy]

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll's post only contains information from Requiem 2e, in case there's any lingering confusion about that. They were attempting to fill in your question about how that system might work, since that is the one I suggested you use if you were going to bring in house rules for humanity.

[The Jack]

I have a couple of mechanics questions about Masquerade.

I don't own V5, but I am hoping to get a V4 game started in the near-ish future, with some modest homebrew changes.

Do we agree that the old version of Celerity, one extra move per dot, was massively overpowered when it came to combat? I mean, I couldn't take the warrior Salubri terribly seriously as these badass demon hunters because they don't have it, and Valeren just kind of sucks. On the other hand, reducing Celerity to just adding to your initiative and movement speed seems to gimp it a touch much.

Spending a blood-per celerity move balances it somewhat, but I think a key move that DAV20 introduced was that you can only attack for half, rounded up, of your celerity unless you were using a ranged weapon with a good fire-rate.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll's post only contains information from Requiem 2e, in case there's any lingering confusion about that. They were attempting to fill in your question about how that system might work, since that is the one I suggested you use if you were going to bring in house rules for humanity.

This. I don't play any other Vampire games, my takes on them are all from reading other peoples summaries.

As for your questions: the dice pools for degeneration are pretty high for most things. You'd have to either have no touchstone, or be doing some premeditated killing to have less than a 3/4 chance of passing any given roll. So if your mobster was a brutal killer, then chances are they'd drop down to about Humanity 3-4 pretty quickly, because that's where they likely were for Integrity before being embraced.

Regarding Banes, yeah banes for "impassioned violence" would be pretty common, and for PCs so would "impassioned killing". Other common ones: learning a dot of Cruac for members of the Mothers Army. For wannabe saintswho are trying to stay at 8 or above, injuring someone over blood maybe?

[The Jack]

My experience with VTM:

Your humanity begins at 5 and will at some point become 4. This is the range of vampire normal.
You need only adjust it from there for reasons of diablerie or killing nice people who don't deserve it or because you've came to your senses and want to get on a road.

Top Teir paths: Honourable accord, Samsara (paradox), Typhon, Blood

Mid Teir paths: Beast, Night (cold is best), Power and the inner voice, Caine, Cathari, Heaven

Trap paths: Lilith, Bones, Metamorphosis, Revelations, Scorched Heart, Paradox.

Such paths are ranked by the ease of which one can maintain good levels (Let's say 5-7) rather than which you can get a 10 in. Instinct is a mistake so anything with that's ranked lower. Conviction is an inconvenience but not really a factor in ranking.
How fun the paths are may have influenced my choices


I may have confused some of these for their road names. I've put heaven in there deliberately. Paths are more of a pain in the ass than dark age roads. Roads are easier

[LibraryOgre]

I never liked the Paths, but I never saw Humanity as a Path for keeping the Beast under control, but rather an attribute of how much of the Beast there was... slide on humanity, and you fall to the Beast. The alternate Paths kind of cheapened the "We are monsters" aspect, because they often became "We are monsters, but we're OK with that."

[The Jack]

Paths work only when you can internalise them into your character's mindset. If you're going to do a typhonist you're going to need to 'get' the whole Set thing. You can't just look at the hierachy of sins and go by that, you need to understand why. You need to be able to look at your path of choice and think 'I'm doing the right and just thing'

Typhon,Blood,Night, power and Accord work fantastically because your character could genuinely obtain those convictions and see their new vampiric place in the world as adherents of such paths. They still have rights and wrongs, but they're different.

If you can really get behind the path, it makes sense. Some of them make more sense than the given humanity chart and it's arbitrary choice of putting property damage as worse than theft.
(No joke; my character was going to smash a witness's phone, and then me and my storyteller had to have a dialogue over the humanitarian merits of merely confiscating it instead. )

I don't get bones/metamorphosis; They just seem silly. How can anyone realistically believe and internalise that ****? I can't sociologically justify them.

[Morgaln]

Paths work only when you can internalise them into your character's mindset. If you're going to do a typhonist you're going to need to 'get' the whole Set thing. You can't just look at the hierachy of sins and go by that, you need to understand why. You need to be able to look at your path of choice and think 'I'm doing the right and just thing'

Typhon,Blood,Night, power and Accord work fantastically because your character could genuinely obtain those convictions and see their new vampiric place in the world as adherents of such paths. They still have rights and wrongs, but they're different.

If you can really get behind the path, it makes sense. Some of them make more sense than the given humanity chart and it's arbitrary choice of putting property damage as worse than theft.
(No joke; my character was going to smash a witness's phone, and then me and my storyteller had to have a dialogue over the humanitarian merits of merely confiscating it instead. )

I don't get bones/metamorphosis; They just seem silly. How can anyone realistically believe and internalise that ****? I can't sociologically justify them.

I find metamorphosis to be much easier to understand than night. Metamorphosis is classic supremacist thinking; you're superior to others, and you can use your powers of transformation to perfect your form and remove taints until you become the supreme being. Experimenting on inferior beings will help you attain the knowledge to reach that perfect form. While I find that mindset abhorrent, it's not so different from the mindset of various historical figures.

Night, on the other hand, is just about making others suffer. Not as a means to an end but just as a goal in itself. It doesn't lead anywhere, it's just an excuse to be as cruel as you want. It's basically bullying: the religion.

[The Jack]

But Night still has painful rules and you're lending yourself into the whole exaggeration of your parasitism that I like. Plus for such an evil path You can't kill or diablerize (maybe you can kill if you work it to traumatise someone else, that's probably just a pet thing.)

You've got that religious aspect of 'My god-given job as vampire is to make everyone else suffer' which is just a parody of basically every other vampire.

Maybe I'm sick, but Night's funny. You always find yourself trying too-hard to terrorise people. I played a path of night character briefly, and I had an epic struggle trying to kill someone's cat.


Meta/Bones is just too one-track. It's like if your life revolved around perfect gun building and you'd lose yourself if you went a night without shooting or machining or attempting a frivolous build. Or if you dedicated your life to music and fell to the beast should you cease playing. The other paths are lifestyles, philosophies and religions but meta/bones is just an occupation.

Granted, there are a few freaks on this earth that can dedicate themselves to a hobby, but I don't think meta/bones is a likely thing to be codified.

(also, I don't like most of paradox because it's not survivable. You need moderation if you're going to kill others not on your path.)

[Jeivar]

Is anyone willing to converse with my by PM on the whole Humanity thing? I don't want to clog up the thread with question after question.