General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[Anonymouswizard]

Meanwhile, I'd be happy to see an updated version of Hunter: The Reckoning.

I'd love to see an update of both HtR and Demon: the Fallen. Both are very much set at the 'start' of the splat being in the world, almost two decades on I think books that go back and lay out how the splats have changed would be interesting.

Plus I just like Demon. It appeals a lot to my interest in certain Not Board Safe topics.

I think that before getting to the mechanics, Reckoning would need to decide what it even is. Its premise is mortals empowered by mysterious forces to fight evil, but their powers are wimpy and the narration constantly emphasizes how screwed and likely to die horribly or go insane they are. It feels like trying to have their cake and eat it too. Like they wanted the underdog position inherent to hunters in WoD, but also that they need to have powers. I'm guessing it was because of the Exalted tie-in that never went anywhere.

I'm starting to think Reckoning should have gone with a more 'Street Level Supers' style. Unpowered hunters had already been done well in Hunters Hunted, here was the chance to do something a little more meaty. Have the powers start off as wimpy level 1s, but play up the idea of the three Virtues disconnecting you from humanity (maybe a penalty to social rolls equal to your highest Virtue). Sure you can get to the point where you're raining divine fire upon vampires and demons, but at the same time you're ostracised from everybody who isn't also an Imbued.

Also, I'd bring in a 'Beast/Shadow' thing, where the stronger Imbued get the more they're driven by instinct. Make an Imbued who's actually survived for twenty years a terror capable of massive feats of strength and going up against a Garou elder with a chance of surviving, but at the same time they're completely dedicated to this goal of 'saving the world' from monsters, to the point where they've become potential targets for younger hunters. Maybe at those levels the Imbued gets taken over by whatever is providing their powers, or maybe getting to that level of power requires a mental state that isn't healthy.

[Jeivar]

I think that before getting to the mechanics, Reckoning would need to decide what it even is. Its premise is mortals empowered by mysterious forces to fight evil, but their powers are wimpy and the narration constantly emphasizes how screwed and likely to die horribly or go insane they are. It feels like trying to have their cake and eat it too. Like they wanted the underdog position inherent to hunters in WoD, but also that they need to have powers. I'm guessing it was because of the Exalted tie-in that never went anywhere.

To be fair, the powers are called "Edges". Because that's what they are; helpful edges against monsters, but not enough to turn them into superheroes.

[Morty]

I'm starting to think Reckoning should have gone with a more 'Street Level Supers' style. Unpowered hunters had already been done well in Hunters Hunted, here was the chance to do something a little more meaty. Have the powers start off as wimpy level 1s, but play up the idea of the three Virtues disconnecting you from humanity (maybe a penalty to social rolls equal to your highest Virtue). Sure you can get to the point where you're raining divine fire upon vampires and demons, but at the same time you're ostracised from everybody who isn't also an Imbued.

Also, I'd bring in a 'Beast/Shadow' thing, where the stronger Imbued get the more they're driven by instinct. Make an Imbued who's actually survived for twenty years a terror capable of massive feats of strength and going up against a Garou elder with a chance of surviving, but at the same time they're completely dedicated to this goal of 'saving the world' from monsters, to the point where they've become potential targets for younger hunters. Maybe at those levels the Imbued gets taken over by whatever is providing their powers, or maybe getting to that level of power requires a mental state that isn't healthy.

That sounds like a possible route, yes. Don't try to be Hunter: the Vigil but with powers (well, H:tV came out years later, but still), be its own thing. It appears that the recent classic WoD material makes humans out to be an actual threat, so Imbued don't need to be a "this tall to ride" card that they felt like in Reckoning.

To be fair, the powers are called "Edges". Because that's what they are; helpful edges against monsters, but not enough to turn them into superheroes.

Well, yeah. My point is more that giving them powers and then making them weak is a weird way of going about it. Maybe if those powers were better-designed to actually provide an edge, it'd work better.

[Jeivar]

Well, yeah. My point is more that giving them powers and then making them weak is a weird way of going about it. Maybe if those powers were better-designed to actually provide an edge, it'd work better.

Well, they provide AN edge. Just not a powerful one. So it's fitting with the "mortals but slightly more" thing. As I understand it the greatest advantage of the Imbued is simply to be able to detect supernaturals and to be immune to stuff like Dominate.

[Anonymouswizard]

That sounds like a possible route, yes. Don't try to be Hunter: the Vigil but with powers (well, H:tV came out years later, but still), be its own thing. It appears that the recent classic WoD material makes humans out to be an actual threat, so Imbued don't need to be a "this tall to ride" card that they felt like in Reckoning.

Honestly, I think that making human hunters more dangerous was the right move (I think even V20 started making such move with Hunters Hunted 2). Actually, I tend to see Hunter: the Vigil as 'Hunters Hunted, but without the Vampire connection' and it's one of my favourite CofD games because it locks you in the least (unlike the other splats there aren't any key blocks of Hunter society, and the setup lends itself to including a larger variety of beings than in most others). I got rid of my copy of Hunter because, while it is a great game, it failed to be the game it claimed to be in the writing or the art and I'd much rather it moved towards one or the other.

The only real options that you have in my view are to depower Imbued, increase their level of organisation, or to hike up the power level a notch or two. In the first case you're just doing mortal hunters who have been done fairly well in Hunters Hunted, in the second you're taking away one of the most unique things about Hunter (even the protagonists of Demon begin play with more splat-oriented connections and organisation), so the third is the most logical way to go. Add in a few hunter.net spinoffs, have the government get involved with the Imbued, and give a bit more clarification on just what on earth are they? I think you could make an interesting game from that.

And now I've got to thinking about CofD, and I'm wondering if Slashers are a closer equivalent to the Imbued than CofD Hunters. It's certainly something to think about if I ever get the crossover Hunter game I've got plans for anywhere beyond 'can potentially offer to run it after a normal CofD game'.

Well, yeah. My point is more that giving them powers and then making them weak is a weird way of going about it. Maybe if those powers were better-designed to actually provide an edge, it'd work better.

I think the thing that most annoyed me is the idea that low level Edges couldn't break physics without a very specific viewpoint. That sounds suspiciously like Mage to me (although the Imbued getting their powers from what's left of destroyed Avatars isn't bad as a potential backstory), Avengers should be able to rationalise away the ways their powers break physics. Of course an Avenger has a knife under their coat, even if they've been through six metal detectors, because they'll have a weapon to take on the monsters with just in case. They don't notice it disappearing after use because they've used it so long that they just don't notice it until they have to pull it out.

Which brings up another interesting idea: that only onlookers can notice that an Imbued's powers shouldn't technically work. I think the game tried to play with it for lower level Edges, but I just wasn't satisfied with it. It seemed to be more about limiting what characters could do with Edges unless they started to specifically tailor their character's viewpoints. Sure if they Imbued are struggling you should encourage creative power usage?

[Rater202]

I'm guessing it was because of the Exalted tie-in that never went anywhere.

It went places, but it was subtle. More implications than anything concrete, though it was eventually established that Hunters got their powers from chopped up bits of solar exaltation and the implications that it was The Ebon Dragon making the hunters were interesting but unfortunately went nowhere.

Though, again, if anyone actually wants to explore Exalted in the world of Darkness, Holden eventually released his own thoughts on it in two PDFs. Can download it off of his patreon, costs literally nothing. All you need is at least one 4th addition Sourcebook for the World of Darkness to get the core rules.

If nothing else it's a good read.

[Jeivar]

One little question: Can someone identify a Background for me? I remember seeing it on some online list years ago, but I can't remember the name and my Googling isn't turning it up.

It was for mortal hunters and denoted infamy among vampires (and of course, fame among hunters). As I recall the five-point version meant you were such a vampire-killing legend that Princes simply order all operations shut down when you enter town, so as not to draw your attention.

It was pretty badass.

[fishyfishyfishy]

It went places, but it was subtle. More implications than anything concrete, though it was eventually established that Hunters got their powers from chopped up bits of solar exaltation and the implications that it was The Ebon Dragon making the hunters were interesting but unfortunately went nowhere.

Though, again, if anyone actually wants to explore Exalted in the world of Darkness, Holden eventually released his own thoughts on it in two PDFs. Can download it off of his patreon, costs literally nothing. All you need is at least one 4th addition Sourcebook for the World of Darkness to get the core rules.

If nothing else it's a good read.

Exalted was spun off into it's own game on purpose. There's no ties to World of Darkness.


I'd also encourage people to not support Holden. He was fired from OPP for a reason.

[Morty]

Honestly, I think that making human hunters more dangerous was the right move (I think even V20 started making such move with Hunters Hunted 2). Actually, I tend to see Hunter: the Vigil as 'Hunters Hunted, but without the Vampire connection' and it's one of my favourite CofD games because it locks you in the least (unlike the other splats there aren't any key blocks of Hunter society, and the setup lends itself to including a larger variety of beings than in most others). I got rid of my copy of Hunter because, while it is a great game, it failed to be the game it claimed to be in the writing or the art and I'd much rather it moved towards one or the other.

The only real options that you have in my view are to depower Imbued, increase their level of organisation, or to hike up the power level a notch or two. In the first case you're just doing mortal hunters who have been done fairly well in Hunters Hunted, in the second you're taking away one of the most unique things about Hunter (even the protagonists of Demon begin play with more splat-oriented connections and organisation), so the third is the most logical way to go. Add in a few hunter.net spinoffs, have the government get involved with the Imbued, and give a bit more clarification on just what on earth are they? I think you could make an interesting game from that.

Yeah, pretty much. But then the difficult part begins, which is designing mechanics. You'd pretty much have to start from scratch, as I don't think the existing ones are very salvageable.

And now I've got to thinking about CofD, and I'm wondering if Slashers are a closer equivalent to the Imbued than CofD Hunters. It's certainly something to think about if I ever get the crossover Hunter game I've got plans for anywhere beyond 'can potentially offer to run it after a normal CofD game'.

I'm not seeing it, honestly. Slashers are a dark mirror and potential fate of the regular hunters, something everyone on the Vigil risks becoming. Imbued are called to action while they're part of the ignorant masses. Slotting Reckoning into CofD wouldn't be difficult, though. They might even work as a conspiracy in Vigil in a pinch. They do stand out a bit in that they're supposed to have appeared only "recently", which isn't otherwise a thing in CofD where there's no metaplot.

I think the thing that most annoyed me is the idea that low level Edges couldn't break physics without a very specific viewpoint. That sounds suspiciously like Mage to me (although the Imbued getting their powers from what's left of destroyed Avatars isn't bad as a potential backstory), Avengers should be able to rationalise away the ways their powers break physics. Of course an Avenger has a knife under their coat, even if they've been through six metal detectors, because they'll have a weapon to take on the monsters with just in case. They don't notice it disappearing after use because they've used it so long that they just don't notice it until they have to pull it out.

Which brings up another interesting idea: that only onlookers can notice that an Imbued's powers shouldn't technically work. I think the game tried to play with it for lower level Edges, but I just wasn't satisfied with it. It seemed to be more about limiting what characters could do with Edges unless they started to specifically tailor their character's viewpoints. Sure if they Imbued are struggling you should encourage creative power usage?

I honestly forgot about this part. It's been a long time since I read Reckoning.

It went places, but it was subtle. More implications than anything concrete, though it was eventually established that Hunters got their powers from chopped up bits of solar exaltation and the implications that it was The Ebon Dragon making the hunters were interesting but unfortunately went nowhere.

Though, again, if anyone actually wants to explore Exalted in the world of Darkness, Holden eventually released his own thoughts on it in two PDFs. Can download it off of his patreon, costs literally nothing. All you need is at least one 4th addition Sourcebook for the World of Darkness to get the core rules.

If nothing else it's a good read.

Exalted was spun off into it's own game on purpose. There's no ties to World of Darkness.

Yeah, exploring Exalted in the World of Darkness is not what Reckoning should be doing. Let them both do their own thing.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, pretty much. But then the difficult part begins, which is designing mechanics. You'd pretty much have to start from scratch, as I don't think the existing ones are very salvageable.

Some of the core ideas are salvagable. I also think that it's mainly the powers themselves that need rewriting, the way that you get them (by increasing your Virtues and then dedicating Virtue points) worked at least as well as any other way (although Virtues should probably be explicitly tied to XP if you're keeping it).

Although to be honest, I don't think any oWoD was quite so hot on the powers. Either being a bit vague, having powers vary wildly in strength, or just not being good. Even the well written powers were in dire need of formatting, what I'd give for 'effect' to become 'cost/target/range/effect' so I don't have to scan the paragraph to pull out the exact bit I want/

I'm not seeing it, honestly. Slashers are a dark mirror and potential fate of the regular hunters, something everyone on the Vigil risks becoming. Imbued are called to action while they're part of the ignorant masses. Slotting Reckoning into CofD wouldn't be difficult, though. They might even work as a conspiracy in Vigil in a pinch. They do stand out a bit in that they're supposed to have appeared only "recently", which isn't otherwise a thing in CofD where there's no metaplot.

Eh, this has a lot of me not being well versed in either slashers (they're mostly in horror films I know I'll despise) or Slashers. So it's entirely possible that I'm just mixing up what little I know about them.

In all honesty, I think it might be easier to write Reckoning as a Vigil addition rather than keeping it in the oWoD. They're something which has suddenly exploded into the supernatural scene, which no Conspiracy or Compact has an actual clue about. They seem to be doing the same thing as Hunters, but they have these strange powers that nobody can pinpoint the origin of, are shockingly unorganised, and from the few you've been able to question they know even less about the supernatural than you do. In some cases they're just another variety of Hunter, in some they're best left alone, and in some cases they're dangerous people constantly sliding down the slippery slope into extremism and just as much of a problem as the rest of the supernaturals.

And now I'm just imagining an Imbued Support Group. 'Hi, I'm Geoff, and I want to exterminate every last inhuman creature on this planet...'

I honestly forgot about this part. It's been a long time since I read Reckoning.

It's not as massive a thing as my post might have implied, but it's there. I hated that Cleave didn't just let you have a weapon unless your character could truly believe that an angel would hand them a sword on demand.

[Rater202]

Exalted was spun off into it's own game on purpose. There's no ties to World of Darkness.


I'd also encourage people to not support Holden. He was fired from OPP for a reason.

1: Exalted doesn't have Wod ties but woD has Exalted ties. They're just subtle and were never explored.

2: What did Holden do?

3: The PDF is free. The second PDF with extra stuff is also free.

I don't see how taking advantage of something that costs you nothing counts as supporting the person who made it. You're not giving him money for it, it's just there, for free. Costs you nothing.

[Jeivar]

The newness of the Imbued is something I quite like about them and wish had been explored more. Mages and vampires and werewolves and whatnot have been around for millennia, waging their internal struggles and occasionally bumping into one another. The details change but the overall supernatural landscape has stayed basically the same.

Then something new comes along that no one understands, not even the new folks themselves. There is no organisation to disrupt, no power centres to attack and no goal to foil beyond "Fight the monsters". Suddenly random mortals are seeing through all the BS, and for all anyone knows it is the start of a trend. By rights this should make a seasoned vampire who thought he had it all figured out very, very nervous.

[Morty]

Some of the core ideas are salvagable. I also think that it's mainly the powers themselves that need rewriting, the way that you get them (by increasing your Virtues and then dedicating Virtue points) worked at least as well as any other way (although Virtues should probably be explicitly tied to XP if you're keeping it).

Although to be honest, I don't think any oWoD was quite so hot on the powers. Either being a bit vague, having powers vary wildly in strength, or just not being good. Even the well written powers were in dire need of formatting, what I'd give for 'effect' to become 'cost/target/range/effect' so I don't have to scan the paragraph to pull out the exact bit I want/

There's a reason "White Wolf cannot into mechanics" became a meme. Early 2000s oWoD was pretty bad. The main thing I remember from Reckoning was the utterly byzantine way Conviction seemed to work. It was a permanent stat, but also temporary... something like that.

The powers themselves also need to be rewritten, for sure. Maybe step away form the "five dots with one power each" paradigm. CofD has been doing that more and more and it generally works out better. Requiem kept it, but in the form of a single baseline power that becomes more versatile and efficient, rather than five loosely-connected tricks.

Eh, this has a lot of me not being well versed in either slashers (they're mostly in horror films I know I'll despise) or Slashers. So it's entirely possible that I'm just mixing up what little I know about them.

The Slasher book provides rules for slasher-style serial killers as antagonists, with five varieties that each have two "levels" - one is borderline supernatural, the other obviously so. It's a Hunter rulebook, but in addition to being antagonists for hunters, slashers are also a potential consequence for them. Hunters who lose themselves in the hunt risk becoming slashers. The second edition of Vigil is going to lean on it more, as its working title was "The Slasher Chronicles".

In all honesty, I think it might be easier to write Reckoning as a Vigil addition rather than keeping it in the oWoD. They're something which has suddenly exploded into the supernatural scene, which no Conspiracy or Compact has an actual clue about. They seem to be doing the same thing as Hunters, but they have these strange powers that nobody can pinpoint the origin of, are shockingly unorganised, and from the few you've been able to question they know even less about the supernatural than you do. In some cases they're just another variety of Hunter, in some they're best left alone, and in some cases they're dangerous people constantly sliding down the slippery slope into extremism and just as much of a problem as the rest of the supernaturals.

And now I'm just imagining an Imbued Support Group. 'Hi, I'm Geoff, and I want to exterminate every last inhuman creature on this planet...'

No argument here, Reckoning would work fine in CofD. Their powers are probably too varied and strong to make them a hunter conspiracy, though. I saw an nWoD Reckoning conversion, but it wasn't very in-depth. Mostly just translating terms, dicepools etc.

[Rater202]

Yeah, exploring Exalted in the World of Darkness is not what Reckoning should be doing. Let them both do their own thing.

Missed this.

Sorry, not what I meant.

I was simply pointing out that the Exalted parallels were present in the forms of implications, and then further mentioned that if one did want to explore the there was an option now.

Should have been clearer, my bad.

(And being completly honest, I just really wanna do an RP where a little girl is a half-dead demigod who hears the whispers of the dead and sees visions of a past life and a coterie of vampires is babysitting her becuase everyone, herself included, thinks that she's a low generation Malkavian Oracle. That's an option now and the supplement is free.)

Re: Slasher, the thing about Slasher is that in the suplement(which is presented as a general suplement even though it ffocuses mostly on Hunter Lore and mechanics) is that Slashers are an expansion on the concept presented in the core book.

There are already rules for using Dread Powers and Antagonist stats to make up Slashers.

The Slasher book codifies Slashers with unique abillities into five "Undertakings" which are themselves split into "Rippers" and "Scourges."

Slashers are based very much on the traditional serial killer profile.

The slasher creation rules present Slashers as a template--more like Hunters than Vampires--over PC character creation. The only differance is that you start at morality(Integrity) 4 instead of 7(and even then if you want the book says you can use a heavily modded morality with Hunter's 'the Code' rules if you want someone more stable.)

Slasher PCs are totally viable. An Avenger who hates vampires and hunts them and kills them without mercy becuase his teenage daughter was raped, killed, and eaten by one of the "succubus-like-ones" isn't meaningfully different from a Hunter who pursues vampires for the same reasons. You're warranted to be an Anti-Hero, but it's the Chronicles of Darkness so you were probably gonna end there anyway.

(Charles Bronson's character in the Death Wish series is one of the given examples of an Avenger type Slasher.)

I'm not seeing a Mask being PCable outside of a one-shot, but that's mostly becuase Mask's can't speak and take huge penalties to social situations so...

(Slasher might be one of my favorite supplements. I like Slashers. I even wrote a paper on Slasher films in my Crime and Culture class. Got an A. Also did an analysis of the Halloween theme for music appreciation class. also got an A.)

[Jeivar]

I'm still tinkering with the Masquerade disciplines. Currently I'm working on Protean, and would love to get some opinions on this alpha version.

Spoiler: Protean

Show

I took out the first level power, since I feel every vampire should be able to see in the dark. Because.. they're vampires. I also wanted to get to the actual animal shapes sooner, especially since turning into a wolf isn't all that useful. I also wanted to add more options. It's called "protean", after all.
I borrowed the talons from the Wolves of the Sea supplement, and the War Form from Bloodlines, with some inspiration from Vicissitude.

All first level powers cost one BP.
* Feral Claws: Takes one turn to activate. Aggravated +1
* Predator's Sight: Can see body heat. +2 Difficulty for mortals to hide from the vampire.
*Predator's Nose: Can track like a bloodhound

** Earth Meld: The vampire spends one BP, sinking into the earth. This takes one turn. The vampire is only faintly aware of their surroundings.
** Shape of the Beast: Spend one BP, takes three turns. Bat (Strength at 1, Hearing rolls at -3 difficulty) or Wolf (Move at double speed, all perception rolls at -2 difficulty, Bite for Strength+2)

***Wings of Night : Wings sprout from the back, tearing apart any clothes that are in the way. Can glide on winds, but not carry anything or take off from the ground.
*** Great Talons: Spend one BP. Strength+3 Aggravated damage

**** Mist Form: Spend one BP, takes three turns. The vampire is immune to all mundane physical attacks, and takes one fewer die of damage from fire and sunlight. The vampire may float at a brisk pace.
**** Great Wings: Spend one BP, takes two turns. Can make vertical takeoff, carry 25 kg, max speed 75 km

***** War Form, +3 to physical Attributes. Gains Feral Claws, Predator’s Sight and Nose. Terrifies mortals.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I'm still tinkering with the Masquerade disciplines. Currently I'm working on Protean, and would love to get some opinions on this alpha version.

Spoiler: Protean

Show

I took out the first level power, since I feel every vampire should be able to see in the dark. Because.. they're vampires. I also wanted to get to the actual animal shapes sooner, especially since turning into a wolf isn't all that useful. I also wanted to add more options. It's called "protean", after all.
I borrowed the talons from the Wolves of the Sea supplement, and the War Form from Bloodlines, with some inspiration from Vicissitude.

All first level powers cost one BP.
* Feral Claws: Takes one turn to activate. Aggravated +1
* Predator's Sight: Can see body heat. +2 Difficulty for mortals to hide from the vampire.
*Predator's Nose: Can track like a bloodhound

** Earth Meld: The vampire spends one BP, sinking into the earth. This takes one turn. The vampire is only faintly aware of their surroundings.
** Shape of the Beast: Spend one BP, takes three turns. Bat (Strength at 1, Hearing rolls at -3 difficulty) or Wolf (Move at double speed, all perception rolls at -2 difficulty, Bite for Strength+2)

***Wings of Night : Wings sprout from the back, tearing apart any clothes that are in the way. Can glide on winds, but not carry anything or take off from the ground.
*** Great Talons: Spend one BP. Strength+3 Aggravated damage

**** Mist Form: Spend one BP, takes three turns. The vampire is immune to all mundane physical attacks, and takes one fewer die of damage from fire and sunlight. The vampire may float at a brisk pace.
**** Great Wings: Spend one BP, takes two turns. Can make vertical takeoff, carry 25 kg, max speed 75 km

***** War Form, +3 to physical Attributes. Gains Feral Claws, Predator’s Sight and Nose. Terrifies mortals.

Jesus. You made a better version of Protean 7 into a level 5 power. That's obscene.

Are you giving both powers with each dot, or must people select one or the other? Why would anyone select wings when learning Vicissitude or Movement of the Mind is objectively better? If they need flight and don't want either of those, Shape of the Beast gives you flight. I'm not seeing much benefit.

I think you should better define what "track like a bloodhound" means. Because theoretically this is already possible with Auspex 1 and I'm not seeing any use in choosing that. I also don't think it makes sense to increase the difficulty of another person's rolls based on adjusting your own perceptive powers. It should lower your difficulty rather than increase theirs.

[Jeivar]

Jesus. You made a better version of Protean 7 into a level 5 power. That's obscene.

Horrid Form is a four-dot Vicissitude power, and it adds +3 to all physical attributes.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Horrid Form, and Shape of Beasts Wrath, also both come with a long list of downsides. Namely 0 in social attributes. Horrid Form doesn't grant any other benefits to the transformation aside from the stat boost and bony knuckles that give a bonus dice to brawling damage. No aggravated damage claws for vicissitude, regardless of your increased strength. The best you can do is grow some claws with Vicissitude 3 after your transformation that deal lethal damage. This isn't comparable to Vicissitude 4 at all. Your homebrew is near exactly Shape of Beasts Wrath but with more attribute dots and none of the downsides.

[Ignimortis]

I'm still tinkering with the Masquerade disciplines. Currently I'm working on Protean, and would love to get some opinions on this alpha version.

Spoiler: Protean

Show

I took out the first level power, since I feel every vampire should be able to see in the dark. Because.. they're vampires. I also wanted to get to the actual animal shapes sooner, especially since turning into a wolf isn't all that useful. I also wanted to add more options. It's called "protean", after all.
I borrowed the talons from the Wolves of the Sea supplement, and the War Form from Bloodlines, with some inspiration from Vicissitude.

All first level powers cost one BP.
* Feral Claws: Takes one turn to activate. Aggravated +1
* Predator's Sight: Can see body heat. +2 Difficulty for mortals to hide from the vampire.
*Predator's Nose: Can track like a bloodhound

** Earth Meld: The vampire spends one BP, sinking into the earth. This takes one turn. The vampire is only faintly aware of their surroundings.
** Shape of the Beast: Spend one BP, takes three turns. Bat (Strength at 1, Hearing rolls at -3 difficulty) or Wolf (Move at double speed, all perception rolls at -2 difficulty, Bite for Strength+2)

***Wings of Night : Wings sprout from the back, tearing apart any clothes that are in the way. Can glide on winds, but not carry anything or take off from the ground.
*** Great Talons: Spend one BP. Strength+3 Aggravated damage

**** Mist Form: Spend one BP, takes three turns. The vampire is immune to all mundane physical attacks, and takes one fewer die of damage from fire and sunlight. The vampire may float at a brisk pace.
**** Great Wings: Spend one BP, takes two turns. Can make vertical takeoff, carry 25 kg, max speed 75 km

***** War Form, +3 to physical Attributes. Gains Feral Claws, Predator’s Sight and Nose. Terrifies mortals.

This is insanely broken. Protean is already considered a god-tier discipline, because it has a ton of utility and combat potential all in one - the only thing it doesn't help with is social encounters. +3 to all physicals means you HAVE to get this discipline to be anywhere competitive in combat, which means every damn combat-minded ancilla and upwards will have Protean 5 and all powerful vampire fights actually look like werewolf fights.

I mean, you could've just nerfed Celerity instead of trying to make everything level with it... Poor Fortitude wouldn't even know why it exists right now.

I hold the opinion that you shouldn't have to pile all the relevant disciplines onto a character to get to a relatively-top-notch result. Potence+Fortitude should be able to duke it out against Potence+Celerity or Protean+Fortitude. Protean shouldn't be obligatory due to how hard it is to obtain in fluff, and in general having everyone run around with claws as the best weapon is bad. Give some love to firearms - Celerity+Auspex should be able to do something with them, and you don't need Potence or Protean or anything. Swords get better from Celerity and Potence, don't need Protean.

Basically, you get a discipline to your style (Auspex for firearms, Potence for swords/fists, Protean for claws), add Celerity for extra oomph (though it should be much less impactful, I can outline some variants), and maybe Fortitude to stay alive longer.

Everyone loves Fortitude to a degree, but aggravated from claws/teeth should be weaker and soakable with stamina if you're actually doing combat regularly in your games.

Horrid Form, and Shape of Beasts Wrath, also both come with a long list of downsides. Namely 0 in social attributes. Horrid Form doesn't grant any other benefits to the transformation aside from the stat boost and bony knuckles that give a bonus dice to brawling damage. No aggravated damage claws for vicissitude, regardless of your increased strength. The best you can do is grow some claws with Vicissitude 3 after your transformation that deal lethal damage. This isn't comparable to Vicissitude 4 at all. Your homebrew is near exactly Shape of Beasts Wrath but with more attribute dots and none of the downsides.

Also Vicissitude is rather overpowered, because Horrid Form is too good for a non-combat clan. You level up one social/stealth discipline which gives a lot of useful abilities, and then at the 4th dot you also get a half-ton of stats for when sh*t hits the fan, too.

If you're looking to balance VtM disciplines, I'd suggest staying at Potence/Animalism/Auspex level. Things that do whatever is expected of them (super strength but nothing else/using animals but nothing else aside from a weird not-really-useful thingy with calming the Beast)/reading the surroundings (don't let people check auras each damn turn and it's pretty much fine). Steer clear of either Celerity (does what is expected of it, but the effects are too powerful) or Obtenebration/Protean/Vicissitude (does a lot of things because of the overly broad theme - shadows/shapeshifting/precise shapeshifting).

[Rater202]

I'd also encourage people to not support Holden. He was fired from OPP for a reason.

So, since fishy never explained when I asked, I looked it up.

Holden got fired becuase he went on strike after OPP abused a loophole in the contract he had with them while working on Exalted 3E core to publish work without paying him.

Essentially, his contract stated that OPP would own everything he submitted for Exalted Core but would only pay him for what was used in the final draft.

OPP later published content cut Exalted Core as PDFs(which were not covered by the contract.) Legally, it was within OPPs rights to do so as they owned the content, but at the end of the day, Holden essentially got screwed out of payment for his time and labor and went on strike until they paid him the differance. Instead, he was fired.

So, what I'm saying, is that in my personal opinion this is not sufficient reason for people who are thinking of supporting Holden or using his content from doing so and furthermore that I'm certain that it is far from unreasonable for people to accept the completly 100% free fan-supplement he released. People are free to disagree with me, just stating.

And that if anyone is considering running a V20 or other WoD 4E game that has room for an insane demi-god in a support role, I'm interested.

(Honestly, EvWoD is more a WoD thing than an Exalted one.)

[Milo v3]

Signs of Sorcery is finally coming out. The curse is lifted.

[fishyfishyfishy]

So, since fishy never explained when I asked, I looked it up.

Holden got fired becuase he went on strike after OPP abused a loophole in the contract he had with them while working on Exalted 3E core to publish work without paying him.

Essentially, his contract stated that OPP would own everything he submitted for Exalted Core but would only pay him for what was used in the final draft.

OPP later published content cut Exalted Core as PDFs(which were not covered by the contract.) Legally, it was within OPPs rights to do so as they owned the content, but at the end of the day, Holden essentially got screwed out of payment for his time and labor and went on strike until they paid him the differance. Instead, he was fired.

So, what I'm saying, is that in my personal opinion this is not sufficient reason for people who are thinking of supporting Holden or using his content from doing so and furthermore that I'm certain that it is far from unreasonable for people to accept the completly 100% free fan-supplement he released. People are free to disagree with me, just stating.

And that if anyone is considering running a V20 or other WoD 4E game that has room for an insane demi-god in a support role, I'm interested.

(Honestly, EvWoD is more a WoD thing than an Exalted one.)

I didn't see the question.

No, this is not the only reason why Holden was fired. He was a rude jerk to people online and constantly causing HR issues with OPP. Not to mention that he missed the deadline by 2 whole years.

And after being let go he went on a smear campaign against OPP developers and privately threatened to dox them.

(I actually know a few of the OPP employees and maintain a friendship through social media and discord.)

[Rater202]

I can't fault someone for causing problems for the company that screwed him out of payment for his work, and considering that replacing him did not result in Exalted's production speeding up to a noticeable degree it's pretty clear that whatever was causing the deadline issues was out of his control. I can't find any evidence of your claims, however. I can find him talking about being fired in January(with him admitting that they were in their rights to terminate him) and an explanation of the price screwover on Reddit.

But this is off topic, I was just making a statement that, by what I know, I don't think that his getting fired and the reasons thereof are a good enough reason to tell people who are interested in his work not to support him and especially not to accept something free.

I mean, even if you hate him, there's a differance between an artist and the artist's work that a lot of people don't seem to get, and this particular work is completly free so you're not giving him money. There's no cost to download it and you don't have to be a PAtreon supporter to see the pages with the download links.

(The first book also states that he wasn't using his notes on 3E Alchemicals or Infernals specifically becuase it wouldn't be fair to the current exalted devs. when they're used in the companion, the Exalted vs WoD Alchemicals are basically Modern Alchs and Infernals are 2E Infernals modified by the exaltations having been trapped int eh Thousand Hells and caught up in KotE lore.)

[fishyfishyfishy]

I can't fault someone for causing problems for the company that screwed him out of payment for his work,

Let's clear something up. Holden claims he was not paid. Rich Thomas says he was paid in full. People suggested he take legal action to pursue the payment he claims he's owed and he backed down. Dude was making things up because he wanted more money and threw a temper tantrum and held up production of every exalted product he could in order to protest the payment amount he had already agreed to. The core book was delayed 3 years by him, the first major supplement was 2 years after that, with one minor product in between. Meanwhile he's talking bad about his employers while simultaneously making these demands from them for more money.

He may not have gotten the money he thinks he deserved, but it was the money he agreed to when he took the job.

[Morty]

Is this thread really the right place to argue if an Exalted developer was treated unfairly or not?

[Rater202]

Considering that the topic came up as a direct result of someone using the exalted developer's behavior as a reason not to download a completly free World of Darkness Supplement that costs you nothing to download and gives him nothing when you download it, I think ti's appropriate in that context.

And looking at the facts, Holden agreed to be paid for what content he produced that Onyx Path used in the core book. OPP then used content he produced for the core book in things that were not the core book and becuase of how the contract was worded they didn't have to pay him. He had no legal recourse and he got upset. Regardless of details, I can't fault him for that.

So this might not be the most appropriate thread, but can we at least agree not to say "don't support him, he got fired for a reason" whenever someone tries to bring up the completly free unofficial World of Darkness Supplement he put out just for fun.

Becuase it's a fun and interesting product with a lot of mileage and does, in fact, integrate the settings decently well and as it's much more WoD in tone than Exalted, this is the more appropriate thread to discuss it and fishy saying "don't support holden" when I bring it up is annoying, especially since the supplement in question is absolutely free so downloading it isn't really supporting him..

[fishyfishyfishy]

No, I will not agree to that. However I will drop the topic from this point on. There's no point in needlessly arguing in circles and derailing as was pointed out, and I don't see any benefit in antagonizing anyone just because I disagree with their opinion. Sorry if I upset you at all.

[Rater202]

That out of the Way... Exalted vs World of Darkness is basically what Old School Hunter the Reckoning was trying to be, without the "no you can't actually solve things" bullcrap that was a major problem of the pre-anniversary editions of the Old World of Darkness.

The world sucks, bad.

Not only in normal ways, but in supernatural ways.

But you've just been given a shard of power from a divine source in a last ditch hope to change that.

There are only a couple thousand of you worldwide. You have no idea where your powers came from and you're probably not gonna figure it out, you have no support network, and you have to figure out your powers more or less on your own and no matter how strong you get there's some people who are just too powerful for you to defeat, but you've got a chance to make things better on at least the small scale.

Or you can just screw around and abuse your powers for personal gain, it's up to you.

The default assumption is that one or two players are exalts in either a thematically appropriate group(An Abyssal bunch of a group of Vampires, Wraiths, or Risen, a Lunar hanging with the appropriate kind of Fera, Sid with a Mage, A Solar with... Well, Solars can be with multiple groups actually that's kind of their thing,) unless your're all Dragon-Bloods(who are weaker than Celestials but have the advantage of actually having a support network and more than a couple hundred world wise,) or else you're just playing a mixed splat party to begin with(in which case you've either got a solution for power discrepency or just don't care about it.)

Vampires, for example, are primarily a social splat with brains, magic, and brawl being the subspecialties of specific clans and bloodlines. A Daybreak Caste Abyssal would be someone who slid into the "brains" or "magic" slot that's filled by a Malk Oracle or Tremere.

(I've mentioned the idea of liking a little girl who exalted as an Abyssal and has past life and the whispers real bad being mistaken as the lost progeny of an ancient Malkavian elder and essentially being babysat by a moderately powerful cotery of vampires because nobody wants to leave her wandering around but nobody wants to piss off an ancient, low gen lunatic.)

[LibraryOgre]

So, a Mage: The Ascension game I have played in the past is "Do it with your spheres", where you propose a task, and have to explain how you do it with various spheres (with the addition of Prime 2, if you are planning on creating things).

So, how would you clean your house with high magick?

[Fable Wright]

So, a Mage: The Ascension game I have played in the past is "Do it with your spheres", where you propose a task, and have to explain how you do it with various spheres (with the addition of Prime 2, if you are planning on creating things).

So, how would you clean your house with high magick?

Step 1: Win a small lottery with Entropy
Step 2: Hire a maid with the winnings