General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[fishyfishyfishy]

Spirit 2, convince a local spirit to do it.

[Jeivar]

Say, I have an idea and I'd just like to run it by people: If someone was to coat a sword in tar or something similar, then set it on fire, would you say that the weapon would then inflict at least one dot of Aggravated? Or would the flame be too small?

[Morty]

I'd probably allow it to deal a point of Aggravated damage to a vampire, but only for one hit.

[Yuki Akuma]

It would probably deal Aggravated to a Promethean, too. And it would definitely trigger a Torment roll because it's "fire used as a weapon".

[Rater202]

So, a Mage: The Ascension game I have played in the past is "Do it with your spheres", where you propose a task, and have to explain how you do it with various spheres (with the addition of Prime 2, if you are planning on creating things).

So, how would you clean your house with high magick?

I figure that the combination of Entropy(in more it's Order/Chaos aspect than Fate/Chance aspect) and Matter would be needed to work spells that just makes it so the stuff in your house just never gets dirty or ends up out of place in the first place but I'm legitimately not sure how much of either.

[Milo v3]

If it were Awakening instead of Ascension:
Death Weaving to send the garbage into Ghost-Twilight, Death Unmaking to remove all decay from a region, or Death Making to simply destroy all the unclean things.
Fate Ruling to have things just end up somehow going into the right place given enough time.
Forces Patterning for telekinetically moving everything into the cleaner spots.
Life Patterning to make an animal or person to clean up the house for you.
Matter Ruling for making the dirty stuff to go in bins, Matter perfecting for making anything damaged or stained in the house repaired/untarnished, Matter Unraveling/Unmaking for destroying all dirt and rubbish from the house, Matter Weaving to shrink all the garbage.
Mind Ruling to get other people to clean it for you.
Space fraying to send the garbage to a different place, space patterning to make your bins bigger on the inside.
Spirit to build up an army of cleaning spirits who ensure the household will never suffer from rubbish.
Time Weaving to make the house as it was back when it was clean, Time Unravelling to just launch the rubbish into the future.

[One Tin Soldier]

Here's hoping this doesn't count as thread necromancy...
So here's a question for y'all CofD Storytellers. When you're designing antagonists, do you have any methods you use to make sure they are appropriately difficult? Making a monster or character a match for an individual character isn't too difficult, but how do you balance them against a whole group?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

So I think I found another piece of the puzzle to the grand mystery of the Nameless in Montreal, in VTR 2e, if anyone’s interested.

[Leliel]

So I think I found another piece of the puzzle to the grand mystery of the Nameless in Montreal, in VTR 2e, if anyone’s interested.

*hand goes up*

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

So the first the Nameless (an unknown shadowy figure with glowing eyes) shows is at the Cross on Mount Royal, where he hangs and then kills the Prince of Montreal. Then a few months later he binds the Prince's temporary heir to a rooftop and kills them as well, leaving a message "No More Princes". Remember those deaths, because while most people focus on the Cross and the rules he later gives, I believe the manner of the deaths is important. Ever since that night, the blood sorcery of the Sanctified, one of the major factions, stops working.

The city is in chaos for 35 years, but the Nameless isn't seen again until 1970, when the Carthians (read Anarchs for the Masquerade equivalent) have a big meeting to try and take over the city. Only one survives the night, who is left with her eyes plucked out, and a set of 6 rules handed down by the Nameless. I. Don't kill each other. II. Don't gather five or more at a time. III. Don't leave the city. IV. Don't look for me. V. Don't impersonate me. VI. Stay away from the Cross.

It's significant that they're listed in roman numerals, because there's a bogey-man faction of vampire serial killers called VII. No definitive version of VII is every given in any books. If you add "No More Princes", there's 7 rules, but I consider it more of a Rule 0. Also, a lot of people point to the big delay between Rule 0 and the full set of the rules as showing that the Nameless needed time to learn about Kindred society. It wasn't familiar with how best to control them, it needed time to figure out what rules to put in place. Other people note that rules I and III make sure that there's a Kindred presence in the city. Whatever it is, it needs the Kindred. II and III keep them from being able to organize. I and V keep the city from devolving into complete chaos. IV is pretty basic self-preservation, and VI, well VI is interesting. VI combines with the first appearance at the Cross to put a LOT of importance on that cross.

The same year, a bunch of the Sanctified meet in a church, breaking Rule II, and the church is burned down around them. Other than identifying which church it was, most people just take this as an example of what happens when you break a rule, but I think the manner of the death is significant. There's some other stuff, about how the local line of indigenous vampires are more afraid of something that the Nameless is a "harbinger" of something worse, and aren't afraid of it, and their lineage name means "Owl" which ties into the Strix antagonists, but I'm leaving that aside for now. What I was more interested in, is the little note about how whenever a vampire spends more than a minute on Rue Saint Paul in the old city, they're plagued by terrible bad luck. It could be a throwaway line. But what if it isn't?

Now, other guys had gathered some interesting tidbits. See, Rue Saint Paul is named after the guy who first erected the Cross, Paul de Chomeday. He erected the cross in thanks to God for saving the city from a threatening flood. Most people see that as meaning that the Cross protects the city, and it's destruction could doom Montreal. But that doesn't seem to be enough to curse an entire street, or have it be subject to an unwritten rule. What could? Perhaps if a church hospital burnt down on the street, a slave was executed for it with a confession under torture, and her lover mysteriously disappeared and was never seen again? That might do it, but that's a bit of a stretch for it to be the same... oh, it is the same street!

The 1734 Fire of Montreal started on the south side of Rue Saint Paul, on the corner of what is now Rue St-Sulpice, opposite the Hotel-Dieu Hospital. It quickly spread across the street to the hospital, burning it and over 40 homes on Rue Saint Paul. The next day, they arrest a black slave, Marie Joseph Angelique, based on a rumour that she had set the fire in her owner's attic along with her white lover. The two of them had recently failed to run away. They could not find the lover, Claude Thibault, and in fact he is never seen again. Angelique professes innocence throughout the trial. After a finding of guilt, Angelique was tortured in a manner that involved her legs being bound together. Remember how the temporary prince was found bound on a rooftop before the Nameless killed them? She confesses under torture, but insists she acted alone, protecting the still disappeared Claude Thibault. She is hung (the original Prince was hung from the Cross), and her body is burned, much like the burning of the Lancea Sanctum attempted gathering (or, perhaps, the burning of the church in 1970 more closely mirrors the burning of the Hotel-Dieu). A year later, they give up trying to find Claude Thibault, saying they have no proof of his guilt other than his disappearance anyhow. Nevertheless, he is never heard of again.

In 1861, the rebuilt Hotel-Dieu moves to the very slopes of Mount Royal, on the side closest to the Cross.

My current running theory is that Angelique became a Geist, and the Nameless was created when a Strix tried to Synthesis on her Sin-Eater host. Little did the Strix know that there was already an occupant! Three minds was altogether too much, and they merged into a single being, with only portions of the memories of each one. Being 3 beings, not one, it literally doesn't have name. But enough knowledge of the Strix to know that they're a terrible threat, perhaps knowledge of a plan of a group of Strix to do some terrible evil. Maybe the Nameless doesn't even understand the difference between Strix and Kindred? I'd have Claude Thibault to be the body of the leader of the Strix, to add some real tragedy to the story. Perhaps he was actually Kindred originally, one with access to Obfuscate, explaining how he would still be around.

[Jeivar]

Okay, so I'm slowly fiddling with the oWoD combat system.

If one were to use an Attribute aside from Dexterity for Firearms, do you feel it should be Perception or Wits?

[Ignimortis]

Okay, so I'm slowly fiddling with the oWoD combat system.

If one were to use an Attribute aside from Dexterity for Firearms, do you feel it should be Perception or Wits?

Perception for long-range shots, Dexterity for close-quarters (say, like 50 meters or less, so typical engagement ranges). Wits are more about reaction speed than precision or clarity of sight, so it would be weird to have a 1 Perception character who's quick on the uptake doing bulls-eyes with firearms.

[sktarq]

Wits are more about reaction speed than precision or clarity of sight, so it would be weird to have a 1 Perception character who's quick on the uptake doing bulls-eyes with firearms.

actually I would say wits would be a pretty good basis for not really aimed fire....shooting from the hip, spray-and-pray, coverfire, snapshots, quickdraws, etc.

Otherwise Perception....dex has decent arguments at short ranges but if you want to get away from Dex.

[lightningcat]

A freind of mine is having issues with the Chronicles of Darkness combat system. They streamlined it so much that he isn't enjoying it at all. Not that i think he is wrong, but it isn't affecting my fun. Has anyone done the work to make it a bit more tactical?

Otherwise I might have to add that to my plate.

[EndlessKng]

A freind of mine is having issues with the Chronicles of Darkness combat system. They streamlined it so much that he isn't enjoying it at all. Not that i think he is wrong, but it isn't affecting my fun. Has anyone done the work to make it a bit more tactical?

Otherwise I might have to add that to my plate.

Serious question - has he checked out Hurt Locker? The book expanded combat options a lot, both in terms of new merits (fighting styles, a new system for creating styles from diverse merits, etc) and in terms of new combat mechanics (new conditions you can inflict or suffer, new ways to approach combat, etc). If he hasn't checked it out, I'd highly recommend it.

It also has some useful non-combat stuff - lots of psychic merits, for instance, and a bunch of "micro-templates" where you get a smattering of powers in merit form rather than adding a whole template. The Delta Protocol is especially worth checking out for combat types, since it involves making tactical choices with resources (you suffer penalties if you are deprived of your serum dose, but get benefits in specific areas as well - areas defined by your merit choices. Think Extremis from IM3), but all of them are super flavorful and useful for populating the world with odd sorts that aren't tied to a game line (but can be if you want to graft them on in your game).

[fishyfishyfishy]

It's worth noting that combat is not what the WoD or CofD systems are designed around. Combat is not expected to be a regular occurrence and is generally secondary or tertiary.

[Ignimortis]

It's worth noting that combat is not what the WoD or CofD systems are designed around. Combat is not expected to be a regular occurrence and is generally secondary or tertiary.

And yet about a third if not half the powers in the game are combat-worthy or combat-centric. Personally, I always felt that in some way WoD lent itself somewhat well to street-level superheroics, despite authors gnashing their teeth at the slightest implication that this might be the case.

[LibraryOgre]

It's worth noting that combat is not what the WoD or CofD systems are designed around. Combat is not expected to be a regular occurrence and is generally secondary or tertiary.

For a game not designed around combat, it surely does spend a lot of time on it. You'd think they'd design better systems for something they spend so much time on.

[Morty]

A freind of mine is having issues with the Chronicles of Darkness combat system. They streamlined it so much that he isn't enjoying it at all. Not that i think he is wrong, but it isn't affecting my fun. Has anyone done the work to make it a bit more tactical?

Otherwise I might have to add that to my plate.

What exactly is he having an issue with? And what does "streamlined" mean here? Streamlined compared to what?

[Grytorm]

Quick question because the limited set of first edition Werewolf the Forsaken books I cling to dont really talk about it. But what are the Idigam? From what I gathered in one discussion thread I saw once is that the Idigam were mostly potent spirits that were imprisomed on the moon by Father Wolf. Their time on the moon changed them because the moon was rich in essence but this essence was very pure with very little differentiation. Over time this caused the Idigam to lose their identities creating powerful spirits with no function (and possible leaving them without bane or ban (the idea of having a bane and a ban was very smart)). The moonlandings gave them a passageway back to earth which spread havoc as these powerful spirits returned and rapidly gained very strange very dangerous identities created from their initial experiences upon their return.

Also I am randomly reminded of an idea I had once where spirits vaguely have a hivemind. Specifically they can autonatically share certain kinds of communication with related spirits. Mostly things related to respect, dominance, and renown. So if you beat up/impress a (whatever an appropriate spirit rank is) then those under it will be more wary/helpful. This would apply both territorially and by kind. Also the opposite could occur where treating a spirit poorly would make related spirits dislike you. Also also offering one spirit chiminige in an area might get others to be less demanding of further offerings. Also also also. It could be a weird source of tension where most spirits cannot get the idea that werewolves can't do it as well. That would make them bad at keeping secrets. "Why do you hirt me. Another (wolf) offered a favor if I would attack you guys! Is not fair to hurt me for that."

[fishyfishyfishy]

For a game not designed around combat, it surely does spend a lot of time on it. You'd think they'd design better systems for something they spend so much time on.

Combat section is one small portion of the book, typically squeezed in among other system rolls. I'm not sure how you've gotten this perception.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Quick question because the limited set of first edition Werewolf the Forsaken books I cling to dont really talk about it. But what are the Idigam? From what I gathered in one discussion thread I saw once is that the Idigam were mostly potent spirits that were imprisomed on the moon by Father Wolf. Their time on the moon changed them because the moon was rich in essence but this essence was very pure with very little differentiation. Over time this caused the Idigam to lose their identities creating powerful spirits with no function (and possible leaving them without bane or ban (the idea of having a bane and a ban was very smart)). The moonlandings gave them a passageway back to earth which spread havoc as these powerful spirits returned and rapidly gained very strange very dangerous identities created from their initial experiences upon their return.

Idigam are, broadly speaking, Spirits without a real-world thing to mirror. They were ALWAYS this way: there are Idigam in the Sundered World setting in the first Dark Era's book, which is set while Father Wolf was still alive. They were ALWAYS dangerous. It is BECAUSE they were Idigam that many were imprisoned on the moon, and began shuttling back to Earth with the moon missions. However, not all of them were imprisoned on the moon. Some were left on Earth, weaving their way through human society. Most werewolves don't even know about the moon banishment. If they know about the Idigam at all, it's as impossible spirit-gods who break all the rules that should be.

In 2e, the writers went all-out on throwing various theories that you can pick and choose from. Perhaps they existed before creation, spirits of mere potential. Perhaps they arrived to earth long ago on a meteorite, and are literally from another world. In Demon: the Descent, they say that some Demons theorize that Idigam are embryonic God-Machines. Take your pick of secret origins, and scatter a few others as in-game theories that players might run into.

[Rusty Spoon]

A freind of mine is having issues with the Chronicles of Darkness combat system. They streamlined it so much that he isn't enjoying it at all. Not that i think he is wrong, but it isn't affecting my fun. Has anyone done the work to make it a bit more tactical?

Otherwise I might have to add that to my plate.

Serious question - has he checked out Hurt Locker? The book expanded combat options a lot, both in terms of new merits (fighting styles, a new system for creating styles from diverse merits, etc) and in terms of new combat mechanics (new conditions you can inflict or suffer, new ways to approach combat, etc). If he hasn't checked it out, I'd highly recommend it.

It also has some useful non-combat stuff - lots of psychic merits, for instance, and a bunch of "micro-templates" where you get a smattering of powers in merit form rather than adding a whole template. The Delta Protocol is especially worth checking out for combat types, since it involves making tactical choices with resources (you suffer penalties if you are deprived of your serum dose, but get benefits in specific areas as well - areas defined by your merit choices. Think Extremis from IM3), but all of them are super flavorful and useful for populating the world with odd sorts that aren't tied to a game line (but can be if you want to graft them on in your game).

First off, I missed a whole lot of that great content in Hurt Locker, so thanks for that recommendation! Some good stuff in there.

I've also noticed our combats tend to be kinda bland, so I was toying with the idea of giving everyone two actions per round, but only one can do damage.
Maybe with caveats about not using the same thing twice as well. Anyone have any experience with something like that?

[EndlessKng]

First off, I missed a whole lot of that great content in Hurt Locker, so thanks for that recommendation! Some good stuff in there.

I've also noticed our combats tend to be kinda bland, so I was toying with the idea of giving everyone two actions per round, but only one can do damage.
Maybe with caveats about not using the same thing twice as well. Anyone have any experience with something like that?

Happy to help! Hurt Locker was a literal and figurative game changer for 2e. Even for non-combat focused games, the various supernatural powers and styles not devoted specifically to combat like the Drone style really can add a lot.

I have not experienced that - I play in a LARP group, so we have to follow the usual rules, and COD has restricted extra actions for a reason. It COULD work, but depends a lot on what kind of characters you have and what they can do - in a mortals game, it's probably okay, but Mages can get real gamebreaking with "you get two actions but can only damage with one." It could work, but be super careful with it. I'd recommend instead of just giving a blanket action, specify what they can do - use a skill check to notice something or make a small change to create an advantage, for instance. Alternatively, before going into a fight, let them have time to set up traps or contingency effects, whether mundane or magical, to allow them to have things to trigger reflexively.

[Morty]

Looks like we'll be getting a Deviant: the Renegade Kickstarter next. I don't care overmuch about Deviant, so I just hope a Hunter one isn't far behind.

[lightningcat]

First off, I missed a whole lot of that great content in Hurt Locker, so thanks for that recommendation! Some good stuff in there.

I've also noticed our combats tend to be kinda bland, so I was toying with the idea of giving everyone two actions per round, but only one can do damage.
Maybe with caveats about not using the same thing twice as well. Anyone have any experience with something like that?

Also got Hurt Locker, but haven't had time to dig into it yet. But it looks like what I wanted.

[Milo v3]

I'm looking forward to Deviant, so versatile when it comes to what sort of characters you can play. It also means I can finally run a [PROTOTYPE] campaign.

[Morty]

The Deviant kickstarter is live. I'm not going to back it, as it interests me very little, but I figure people might want to know.

[Grytorm]

Hello again I remembered a somewhat silly idea I had for a fan game. Not certain what it would be called but basically you are a king (or queen). Not that you have any power or significance in the real world. Just that fifteen hundred years ago or what have you one of your ancestors became leader of whatever small region and just something about that has stuck and been passed down for generations even after the kingdom was long gone. Maybe have most people not fully realizing that they have some minor supernatural power. For most people it would be a couple of odd talents and having people always expecting you to solve their problems.

[Morty]

Seems the next Kickstarter is going to be Mummy, making Hunter dead last. I guess something had to go last, it just sucks that it had to be my favorite splat.