General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[Morty]

Is this really the right thread for someone complaining about the moderation on a completely unrelated forum? Even if those complaints were actually legitimate?

[The Jack]

It's the main WoD forum in recent times. Hardly unrelated.

[raygun goth]

Basically everyone hates the horrible lessons thing, everyone views it as victim blaming type crap that is the exact sort of thing an abuser would use to try and justify their actions. Basically everyone thinks beast is super messed up.

I feel bad for having suggested it in the first place.

Like it's a thing I came up with when some people asked what Beasts do and I don't know if a dev saw it or what but it was right there in the next draft (with some of the stuff I wrote there), but it wasn't how I explained it.

I explained it as a method for training people. Beasts, more than anybody, know there are weaknesses to evil, and what those weaknesses are. You can change dreams, you can hunt mortals, you can set up plays and games that teach mortals how to spot supernatural trouble, or find out that the world is stranger and bigger than they thought, or why a rule is the way it is. Why is it wrong to be in this forest at 3 am wearing blue? Like I'd been over here imagining a sort of dark Dr. Who and the draft had some of the sentences I wrote in it, but it was next to other things that were just absolutely awful.

As for me and my house, we ignore the Devouring entirely, and since it's really just a matter of terminology, it works just fine.

[Rater202]

The worst part is that it's the kind of thing that other splats have as Subsplats--The Lancea et Sanctum terrorizing mortals into accepting God or the Scarecrow Ministry staging monster sitings to draw mortals away from genuinely dangerous stuff(or drawing them too safer areas so the dangerous stuff doesn't get noticed.)

I'd have been okay with it if it was a single subculture of Beasts doing it.

Like, you don't need to justify hurting people if refusing to do so will result in more harm. Especially since the game does out of its way to spell out that minor things like say, picking up someone's car and putting it somewhere else to screw with their head, or you know, just being an actual health inspector doing legitimate health inspector work can work.

Like, a Tyrant wants their authority recognized? There are dozens of actual, legitimate jobs that would let you feed indefinitely while getting paid for it and not actually doing that much actual long term harm.

And the Devoring seems to only exist to justify BEasts being around other breasts when they get their power but...

As I suggested at the time, giving Beasts a kinship power that lets them sense when a young beast is close to undergoing Homecoming and a common habit of being there to explain things justifies the same thing, without taking agency away from the character, and in less page-space.

And even then... Beasts seem to automatically know about other Supernaturals and BEasts can feed by watching other Supernaturals gain their mana of choice.

No Beast has to hurt people if they don't want to. Logically a culture of justifying abuse to justify feeding wouldn't have needed to form in the first place.

Anything I do with Beast, I ignore the lessons, Horror is Soul, all Beasts were always beasts, and it's a God Damn Homecoming.

I also don't much like the idea of there being chambers/corridors/whatever and stuff that isn't part of a Beast's Lair.

[LibraryOgre]

It's the main WoD forum in recent times. Hardly unrelated.

The Mod Wonder: It does, however, border on "External Baggage", so should be dropped.

External/Personal Baggage
Each thread should exist in a vacuum, free from outside influences—especially those outside of these boards. What this means is that you can't carry over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion, and you can't harass anyone over anything they did in another thread, on another website's board, or in real life. This is not the forum to air the personal or relationship grievances against other posters - please do not bring your relationship (or former relationship) conflicts to this forum. If you can't check your baggage at the door, you'll end up earning an Infraction.

[The Glyphstone]

On that note, i think a propper WoD forum should be a wyrm ridden toxic battleground where the moderators will only issue bans for spam and illegal activites; anyone can say what they like. A meeting place for all sorts of radicals who oppose eachother with vitrol. A Forum of Darkness if you will.

Sounds like 4chan in its prime.

[The Jack]

Questions that are keeping me up at night:

Assamites in the 'core clan' section Y/N? I want to put the main clans in their own bit for the benefit of new players who shouldn't be thinking of playing setites or Tmiscze.
On that note, Tremere out of the core clans section Y/N? They're 90% cam in sane settings, although the cam is 90% of games with sane storytellers.

Mental fortitude; Having fortitude with dominate/presence gives you dice (equal to the lowest of your fortitude and dom/pres ratings) to resist that discipline. Then I had an epiphany and had the idea that social discipline+potence would counteract the fortitude effect. Cool stuff or am i complicating things? I'm planing to do a section on 'free' combo disciplines where you just need the requisites

I noticed v5 offered social fortitude... It's not V :tM, and I don't like the idea presented in v5.

[Ignimortis]

Questions that are keeping me up at night:

Assamites in the 'core clan' section Y/N? I want to put the main clans in their own bit for the benefit of new players who shouldn't be thinking of playing setites or Tmiscze.
On that note, Tremere out of the core clans section Y/N? They're 90% cam in sane settings, although the cam is 90% of games with sane storytellers.

Assamites as core - yes. They're in every sect, either as mercs or legitimate members. They're diverse enough in their motivations and abilities, unlike some other clans.

Tremere out of the core clans - probably. They're like 99% Cam only, like Tzimisce are 95% Sabbat only with a few independents. Tremere don't even have that.

Mental fortitude; Having fortitude with dominate/presence gives you dice (equal to the lowest of your fortitude and dom/pres ratings) to resist that discipline. Then I had an epiphany and had the idea that social discipline+potence would counteract the fortitude effect. Cool stuff or am i complicating things? I'm planing to do a section on 'free' combo disciplines where you just need the requisites

I noticed v5 offered social fortitude... It's not V :tM, and I don't like the idea presented in v5.

Cool stuff, but probably shouldn't be a base effect to avoid overcomplicating things. Make it a combo, but not free, like 10-15 XP?

This makes Ventrue borderline unbeatable socially, while Toreador and Malkavians are supposed to be their equals at least. Potence+Dominate makes Lasombra an effective counter/mirror to Ventrue, though.

[The Jack]

Gameplay wise, the assamites lend themselves most to powergaming, and i think a lot of storytellers don't like the warrior/vizier casts for their best-discipline set up and excuse to be a ninja.

Just had a thought-maybe I'll keep the tremere as core because they're just so infamous in the other sects; you'll basically get full education on hating them if you're sabbat/anarch.


I was thinking of more coincidental combinations (IE Everyone gets the potence/celerity jump multiplier from LotC for free), so maybe the context would be conductive for it. Dementation would be exchangable with dominate for mental fortitude, But malkavians are more of a 'mental' focused clan than a social, and obfuscate will have it's own helpful quirks. You are certainly right about the toreador... I am unsure of how to bring celerity Into it.

Allows for more presence targets?
Lets animalism/dominate/dementation be delivered understandably in a shorter time (whilst auspex/celerity would let you pick up on the faster messages.)

I think it'd help reinforce clan archetypes. I mostly hate paid-for combo disciplines; they're so inaccessible and the xp bariers seem very artificial for a lot of them. Making the more intuitive ones free would be a good move in diversifying how clans use their same powers differently.

I totally hate v5's 'choose this fortitude power or that fortitude power'. It's not werewolf. This seems like a more 'vampire' way to do it. More metaphysically correct.

But I am worried this is too complicated. Should I put this section as 'optional' like merits and flaws or do i try push it as standard?

[Grytorm]

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

I crave attention and have started to recall other New World Chronicles of Darkness Ideas. Insert longwinded babble about own idiosyncratic desire to call VtR et al 1st edition New World of Darkness and 2nd edition Chronicles of Darkness

First I had a few ideas for additional Seer Ministries because I like completeness and wanted there to be ten. Also, if I ever used this I would make the Ministry of Pantechnicon into one associated with Spirit. They don't want technology to be something understood by sleepers. Technology while acceptable is meant to be a great mystery beyond the kin of typical sleepers.

My other ideas were:

Ministry of Karma, a defunct great ministry dedicated to fate. They started in India and viewed the world in a rigidly hierarchical manner. From there they spread pretty far adjusting the ideology to fit with local ideas. Ultimately though they splintered due to infighting as different cultures came into contact each other and the different branches tried to assert the dominance of their hierarchy. Eventually a significant number left to join the Pentacle crippling them as a major organization. They have a Thyrsus Legacy who associate with the Ivory Talons.They use the Space arcanum alongside Life magic to try and circumvent some of the usual limits on sympathetic magic.

Ministry of Nepenthe, a minor ministry dedicated to Life or Time. They are associated with the idea of false enlightenment. They at times assemble labrynths like the Guardians of the Veil but offer no way out. They also have ties to the drug trade and offer it as another means of false escape.

Ministry of (Moratorium), a minor ministry associated with Death or Time. They focus on mages the influence of the supernal on the world. Acting both as censers to quash hints of the Truth as well as seekers of Artifacts which have drawn the interest of the Exarchs whether it is a threat that must be destroyed or an anchor through which they maintain control.

[Anonymouswizard]

First off, the only Clans I think that definitely need to be 'core' are Brujah, Gangrel, Nosferatu, Toreador, and Ventrue, seeing as they represent five rather broad archetypes, although I'd probably throw Malkavians (Dominate or Dementation) into the mix if you aren't too worried about fishmalks. Of the others the Assamites have the problems of good disciplines plus the 'ninja/assassin' problem*. Giovanni are even more insular than the Tremere (somehow). Lasombra have a hard to balance discipline and crippling weakness. Ravnos have all their issues, share two dsiciplines with the Gangrel, and their unique is fairly powerful. Settites have to deal with the entire 'cult' aspect, but Serpentis is no worse than Protean. Tremere have a great discipline spread, have to deal with being the most rigid Clan, don't get me started on their weakness. The Tzimisce need to do something about their name, and the main clan has one of the most versatile disciplines this side of Blood Magic.

So if you have to have a seventh 'core' Clan I think the first of my list are probably the Settites (weirdly), with the Giovanni and Assamites coming in third. And I never thought I'd be saying that, but honestly if you play the Setties as more of a bunch of related cults than a single religion it could work. With the Giovanni you'd have to work around them being fircely independent and Necromancy being a rather versatile discipline, but it's not impossible to sort out. The Assamites would be the choice if it wasn't for the discipline spread (although fix Celerity and they become more manageable), they're certainly the easiest to work around fluff wise. In all seriousness Settites as a core Clan is a hilariously bad move.

I'd like to give a shout out to the Old Clan Tzimisce. While they still need to sort out their name, with their Auspex/Animalism/Dominate spread and Clan weakness they'd be a great core Clan if there were only more of them.

I'd also probably make combo disciplines a bigger thing. Not necessarily free, but it certainly makes sense for the Ventrue to know a Mental Fortitude discipline and teach it to their childer.

* It wasn't WoD, but I was once in a game with three 'assassins'.

[The Jack]

And I never thought I'd be saying that, but honestly if you play the Setties as more of a bunch of related cults than a single religion it could work.

The Assamites would be the choice if it wasn't for the discipline spread (although fix Celerity and they become more manageable), they're certainly the easiest to work around fluff wise.

Old Clan Tzimisce. While they still need to sort out their name, with their Auspex/Animalism/Dominate spread and Clan weakness they'd be a great core Clan if there were only more of them.

Settites do form a bunch of related cults and quite frankly, despite serpentis being broke, they're one of the most fun clans to play if you can get behind the gnostic philosophy and play them straight. Presence+obfuscate is a barrel of fun, and creating a cult...

Assamites are good, celerity fixes planned, but man do they suggest a trenchcoats and katanas style of play... I'm not knocking it, but the only vamps nastier are african bloodlines and thaumaturgical abominations.

Tzmisce is a great name. The fact that you can pronounce it how you like... oh it's wonderful. It fits with their signature discipline to boot; malleable.
Lasombra, though I love how they sound to my ears, are silly when you realise they're 'the shadow' in a modern language. (giovanni are pretty sound)


Which reminds me.
What language is 'Banu Haqim' from?
Because as 'racist' as 'Assamite' is it's self-aware and you're not tying it to language which isn't so old. So if someone can confirm Banu Haqim as not some awful revisionist idea I'd be comfortable using it.
I think most cainites would prefer to use their own branding for the 'cannibal sect' in any case.

[Anonymouswizard]

Settites do form a bunch of related cults and quite frankly, despite serpentis being broke, they're one of the most fun clans to play if you can get behind the gnostic philosophy and play them straight. Presence+obfuscate is a barrel of fun, and creating a cult...

Sure, but as it's they're a little bit too uniform to me. While I keep Set as the main focus of all their cults in my VtM not all Settite cults are exclusive to him and quite a few have additional god's they actively worship (I'm also considering their their name to Clan Typhoon and have those who associate Typhoon with Set be a large minority).

But yeah, while it took me a while to 'get' the Settites, I know have a massive urge to play one. Although I also have a thing for religious characters in general.

Assamites are good, celerity fixes planned, but man do they suggest a trenchcoats and katanas style of play... I'm not knocking it, but the only vamps nastier are african bloodlines and thaumaturgical abominations.

Again, the problems to me kind of boil down to their disciplines. Celerity's rules are rather combat focused (one of my fixes when I run as to allow it to add it's dots to Dexterity for several minutes for 1BP, to reflect the PC being able to spend more time taking care), Quietus is quite combat focused, and Obfuscate just pushes you towards assassins. As an equivalent to the Brujah thug or the Nosferatu knowledge broker it's not the worst archetype, but I honestly much prefer them as religious or secular scholars.

Going the DAV20 way and making Viziers the default PC option with Auspex, Celerity/Obfuscate, and Queitus wouldn't be the worst (in the V5 game I'm planning I gave all Assamites Auspex, Celerity, and Blood Sorcery). It's much harder to make them a ninja, and they don't come off quite as offensive.

Tzmisce is a great name. The fact that you can pronounce it how you like... oh it's wonderful. It fits with their signature discipline to boot; malleable.
Lasombra, though I love how they sound to my ears, are silly when you realise they're 'the shadow' in a modern language. (giovanni are pretty sound)

I like Tzimisce as an ancient name, but I'm not convinced that it would be their modern name (like how the Toreador might have gone by a different name in earlier nights). But I know since Russians, and it sounds nothing like the language, so I've been considering adopting Zimischi.

Giovanni I have some problems with, I believe it's a rough equivalent to John? But I'm okay using it in game, and it's lies problematic than Tzimisce or Lasombra (who I've taken to calling Umbrian and Abyssian in my planning).

Which reminds me.
What language is 'Banu Haqim' from?
Because as 'racist' as 'Assamite' is it's self-aware and you're not tying it to language which isn't so old. So if someone can confirm Banu Haqim as not some awful revisionist idea I'd be comfortable using it.
I think most cainites would prefer to use their own branding for the 'cannibal sect' in any case.

To be fair, I don't think the formal Clan names should be that common. In an official gathering you talk about Brujah, Nosferatu, and Tremere, on the street you talk about Rabble, Rats, and those ****** Magicians. Assamite to me sounds like a nickname given to them a few hundred years ago, and younger Kindred just think it's their name (and while it might be in the Camarilla, I think the Sabbat and Independents wouldn't use it as much).

[The Jack]

LoTC actually does a golden and gives us vizier and sorcerer variations of quietus. The Vizier one is social and the sorcerer one's largely to do with magic. It's not a perfect system; the vizier's/sorcerers are free to choose between their power variation and the warrior power, whilst the warriors are stuck with the default. It also doesn't help that some powers are just flat out better than other powers. Vizier 1 is just Warrior 1 with bonuses, and some of the powers are less directly comparable but still just better for most things.

Giovanni doesn't bother me because the clan is literally headed by a maybe-1000 year old patriarch of an italian family, It Should be someone's Italian surname, and Giovanni can be an italian surname. Now, it's true; not all of the clan belong to this family, there are other families, but the main one is dominant enough and controlling enough to keep the clan name their own.

Indeed, the formal clan names shouldn't be that common. But Most clans have kept their formal names from the founder or at least for an extremely long time. It's only in the case of Toreador and Tzmisce that there's a degree of mutability (the fashion conscious clans).

Set, the mythological figure, is no more bad than the average dude of those ancient era pantheons.

But the clan structure isn't a monolith dedicated to set.

On the macro level there are set-worshiping setites, then there are belief-compatible settites which worship set-like things that the main settites think of as Set, so the main clan's buddy-buddy with em and thinks of them as fellow Followers of Set. There's also settites that aren't into that, but they're a minority and persecuted for it.

Below that, you've got genuine setite differences in how things work. This is because Vampires are kinda secretive liars and don't share much of the truth, so they do their own research and come to their own conclusions. There's also a good deal influence from real faiths (which aren't homogenous themselves) and the settite tendancy to see Set in other religions. The Settites would be happy to disagree on if the biblical snake is Satan,Set, Apep, Apophis, Aliens, Jorgmunder or just a snake, so long as the core philosophy of 'bugger the Aeons and break chains' is adhered to.

So long as you don't end up loving characters that represent chains (A lot of Deities, but also Devils) You're good.

And below that, you've got a load of front cults.
Settites are happy to
A- represent things that are cool and popular to get members
B- look like any religion and subvert it.

So you can totally play with heresies of real world stuff, parody religions, presenting yourself as a prophet of a new faith...
It's part of the reason the setites are cool with getting so mixed up; They started off in a BS cult, worked their way into the real cult, learned about the higher mysteries, and then proceeded to teach an uncertain mix of stuff they've learned plus new nonsense they're deliberately adding. Do this for a few generations and you'd have a bad time if you wanted to keep a rigid clan belief.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, but I've tended to see them presented as having a more uniform set of 'higher beliefs', which I'm really going to nix in my games. Some Typhoon cults have completely contradictory beliefs about Typhoon/Set, and that should be okay.

Also I'm honestly not sure how the whole 'Ministry of Truth' stuff got into V5, especially as a large number of Neonates (including a decent number of Brujah Neonates) will get the reference. I'm sticking with Clan Typhoon as their name in the games I run, it sounds more like a Clan name anyway and Clan Settite or Clan Followers of Set sound stupid.


In other news, god the House Carna stuff is preachy. I mean, I get that they want an explicitly female-dominated, new agey part of vampire society, but they're written as preachy and the more objective text is directly behind them. While their more diverse embraces means that they could probably get a head start on their more 'pagany' Blood Sorcery, the text also forgets that Thaumaturgy became the dominant form of Blood Magic because it's more scientific trappings helped it advance quickly. The entire existence of House Carna as written removes the (primary) reason that the Tremere even managed to become a significant player in the Camarilla. I think they'd work better if they kept the feminism but had them maintain a strong core of Thaumaturgists with the 'pagans' being a significant minority.

[The Glyphstone]

Do you mean Typhon instead of Typhoon? The former is a giant serpent from Greek mythology, the latter is a tropical cyclone. So I can see the justification for one but would be curious how the other fits in to the theme of the clan.

[Anonymouswizard]

Do you mean Typhon instead of Typhoon? The former is a giant serpent from Greek mythology, the latter is a tropical cyclone. So I can see the justification for one but would be curious how the other fits in to the theme of the clan.

I've been typing on my phone all day, fighting autocorrect went at about 12pm. Plus turning into typhoon made of snakes, must be a Serpents 9 power.

[The Jack]

My disclaimer in case anyone doesn't pick up on it: I'm not talking about real world religions, I'm talking about fictional Vampire-Drug-Dealer corruptions of real world religions.

I wouldn't go for Typhon. Typhon's a whole lot younger than Set.

I'd go for 'serpents' or 'the faith' or, tongue in cheek, 'Gnostics' if I didn't want to use Followers of Set, Setite or specific branch names.

As written
I'm simplifying in part because I can't remember the details, but the General Setite theory is that originally everything was divine and wonderful, and then the nasty No.1 God screwed everybody over in making the material world, ordering everything and trapping everyone. The Setites believe we're all divine beings trapped in an illusory reality, denied our potential. By throwing off the shackles of this illusion, refusing to participate in the order and realising the lie en mass, we can ascend or something like that to our original state.

Set is the Top Bloke who rebelled from his position of relative power to enlighten the little guys, Ra is the big bad; Osiris, Isis and Horus are Ra's puppets.
But groups like the Indian Setites (who follow a Vedic corruption) didn't develop with this mythology. However, the Indian setites have the same philosophy and had developed several mythological stories which were analogous to the Egyptian beliefs, so when the bloodlines met eachother they could find common ground. The Egyptian Setites looked at the Vedic-based Indian Setites and thought 'They also follow Set even though they don't know it, Set wears many masks, X is the Set of India and Y is the Ra, therefore they're Followers of Set' and the Indian Setites were all like 'We see your very good points, we'd prefer to be recognized as our own thing since clearly Set's just a mask of our god, but we're going to be civil about it'

The Egyptian Setites were the most successful in expanding from their cradle of civilisation, which is why Set gets first billing. They're also the apparently the oldest and had Set hang with them... but I don't think that's the important bit. It's -the many faces of Set- versus -gods who aren't Set-.

From their perspective, it makes complete and utter sense. It's only from an outsider perspective that you can think 'Hold on, They don't all follow the egyptian god Set! This needs to be fixed!'

Explain the Ministry name to me, because from your brief description it doesn't sound like they 'get it'.

House Carna
Pants-on-head retarded. It's an impossibility, and the thing was I was really liking V20's suspicious techno-tremere defectors. I'd much rather they be the Anarch Tremere than Carna.

-You can't just change your belief system and learn magic in a new way with the drop of a hat. The established metaphysics of magic in WoD is not so easy. You don't just get to cast the same spell believing in a different thing. Let's say you've learnt Blood Contract and have decided to be a neopagan rather than a hermetic sorcerer; you don't just change the wallpaper and call for herbs and Hecata rather than sulfur and stars. You've gotta adjust yourself on a level that's not even concious, I would have an easier time becoming fluid in Arabic.

-Tremere aren't likely to recruit feminist activists. Competent and driven women make awesome warlocks, but fighters against the patriarchy are an absolutely terrible fit for a clan that only wants the best and the ones that can fit in to their close-knit structure. The Tremere would never have sired enough activists for a meaningful revolt.

-Vampire feminists belong in the following categories: Neonates, Posers, Brujah and Bahari. The later three will be unpopular with Tremere for reasons above. The former can't meaningfully organize and usually grow out of it.

Vampires are asexual and they deeply respect age. A young vampire who berates a female elder will be in for a tough time. Now, a common argument is that Elders stick to the values of their time, but that's not really true and all have made vast changes to adapt to vampirism. Furthermore, a running theme of Vampirism is that inequality is good for vampires. Most Female Kindred will learn to like the hunting advantage they get from a society that womanizes and protects them.

-A feminist rebellion only makes sense in some regions in the world. House Carna seems silly in a lot of places. You've either got too much power to complain or not enough power to complain.

Developers should really stop making a big international deal out of things that only happen in their region. Yeah, that's right US, I'm looking at you; Thanksgiving TV specials can go **** themselves.

[Anonymouswizard]

With regards to Settites: explaining it that way makes a lot of sense. I'll be looking for another name, I wonder if a Middle Eastern language has a good word for Serpent...

On the Ministry of Truth name, it's a reference to 1984, where Minitrue is responsible for propaganda. Leaving beside how that's obviously a Technocracy name, if you're trying to pretend to have straightened up why are you making yourself after liers?

WRT House Carna: as I said, I don't particularly mind a feminist* vampire sect, although if we have to have feminist pagans I'd have made them a bunch of young Brujah and Toreador mystics. It just doesn't fit with the theme of the Warlocks.

Now I have no problem with the idea that House Carna embraces pagan mystics more than academics, and as such is developing more pagan rituals and less hermetic ones. But they apparently discard hermetic ideas, develop an equivalent to Thaumaturgy with no effort, and are set up to preach at the other two houses about being stuck in outdated ideas created by the patriarchy while the text is firmly on their side, that they have a deeper exploration of magic than those that literally dedicated hundreds of years to the study just by... embracing new agers. I actually find myself agreeing with Shreckt, academics are probably a much better choice if you want to study magic (although Clan Tremere has traditionally favoured men for the Embrace so has every Clan due to historical line sexism).

Now there are ways to solve this, particularly making them deeply in debt to Blood Sorcerers of other Clans (Assamite Sorcerers are a possibility, as are Brujah Bruja and Toreador witches). They didn't so much make their own form of Blood Magic as pick up a variety of stuff and add their own bits. And well, the core idea of a more Anarch-friendly Tremere faction is inherently a decent one, it just didn't have to be so preachy and new agey.

Plus like my preference for the Philosopher Kings to be in the Camarilla, House Shreckt will always have my Tremeres' support. At least they'll let study the uses of a left handed pentagram without telling me why I should be pursuing goddess worship and using Rosemary to give my ritual space enough fragrance.

* Let's leave the discussion on if House Carna are actually feminist, it's not forum appropriate.

[The Jack]

A lot of V5 seems like 'I want to play this clan but I don't want to go to any effort for it, so I made it make efforts for me'. Which is why the anarchs are default now and have lost most of their distance as underdogs, and the thin bloods seem like a nice bunch.

The Tremere are too smart to be blown up, It's gotta be a ploy for to weed out the idiots... but it's a really bad time for such a ploy, because the tremere's magical monopoly is at threat and they need to unify more than ever. Technological magic is needed more and more so more people are learning thaumaturgy and it's getting out there...
The Tremere can't split now. It's an idiots idea to have them split for real and an idiot's idea to have them purge now (and they hardly need that purge, nobody's joining Carna or the sabbat because Tremere are a bunch of mental primaries)


I've always thought that Malkavians and Nosferatu have stockpiled magical resources somewhere, and globalization would've brought foreign magic outside of the Tremere sphere of influence into the west. Plus Punk and new age are great, and modern technology makes magic scarily easy to spread. The Bahari also covet magic and are literally a feminist cult, and the Setites will be happy to accommodate you in fighting the patriarchy.

True, there's actually nothing here for having blood magic as an in-clan discipline, unless you're a rogue Tremere or the odd assamite, but I think, in modern nights there's going to be a lot more of them. You don't need to split house Tremere to play a Tremere.




A lot of clans are boys clubs because they recruit from fields dominated by men, not because they're sexist. A few are, but it's more coincidental than not.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Banu Haqim just means descendants of Haqim in Arabic.


As for Tremere, the changes actually make perfect sense when you think about it. Tremere fled his own body and killed off a large number of his own clan, the antitribu, for seemingly no reason. What purpose does that serve him if not to give him the power needed to permanently sever the blood bonds that his clan have to Saulot? He just needed the blood to power the ritual. It took a large number of their kind being sacrificed to put the curse on clan Assamite back in the day, so cursing another clan should take just as much effort.

The attack on the chantry is officially because the second inquisition got the location when they hacked Schrecknet. My theory is that some other organization or person who benefits, like Tremere or the Technocracy, helped this along.

[Anonymouswizard]

Banu Haqim just means descendants of Haqim in Arabic.


As for Tremere, the changes actually make perfect sense when you think about it. Tremere fled his own body and killed off a large number of his own clan, the antitribu, for seemingly no reason. What purpose does that serve him if not to give him the power needed to permanently sever the blood bonds that his clan have to Saulot? He just needed the blood to power the ritual. It took a large number of their kind being sacrificed to put the curse on clan Assamite back in the day, so cursing another clan should take just as much effort.

The attack on the chantry is officially because the second inquisition got the location when they hacked Schrecknet. My theory is that some other organization or person who benefits, like Tremere or the Technocracy, helped this along.

I'm 100% in the camp that the Second Inquisition is a Technocracy project, created by leaking selected information about vampires, and then given some light supertech by embedded agents. Some of their field agents also have anti-Dominate procedures employed, making then harder to deal with, but there's not any actual Technocrats in the SI itself.

For the Tremere, a lot of my problems are less with the changes to the Tremere as a whole, and more how House Carna is portrayed. House Shreckt and House Goratrix seem to have a closer relationship than in previous editions while still being at reach others necks, which fits the Clan to me, but a lot of House Carna is about how much they've changed compared to other Tremere, and they've lost nothing to be at the level of the other Houses. Like, they changed their entire style of Blood Sorcery, which is not supposed to be an easy thing, and from what I can tell the answer is 'because they're so enlightened' not 'they're going to pay for it down the road'. This isn't Awakened Magick.

[The Jack]

Banu Haqim just means descendants of Haqim in Arabic.

So a modern re-branding then.

As for Tremere, the changes actually make perfect sense when you think about it. Tremere fled his own body and killed off a large number of his own clan, the antitribu, for seemingly no reason. What purpose does that serve him if not to give him the power needed to permanently sever the blood bonds that his clan have to Saulot? He just needed the blood to power the ritual. It took a large number of their kind being sacrificed to put the curse on clan Assamite back in the day, so cursing another clan should take just as much effort.

-These historical events all happened in different times. No such event occured with putting the original curse on the Assamites.
-The clan weakness was earned because of the habbits of clan tremere, they metaphysically gave themselves that weakness. It has nothing to do with saulot. If tremere's making his move, he's severing blood bonds to himself and his supporters.

The attack on the chantry is officially because the second inquisition got the location when they hacked Schrecknet. My theory is that some other organization or person who benefits, like Tremere or the Technocracy, helped this along.

You don't hack Schrecknet. It's not one thing. You might as well claim to have hacked the dark web, or invaded all of china without anyone noticing. I don't know if a Mage can do all of that, but regular folk certainly can't. Maybe the inquisition was granted several miracles through the true faith of a computer hacker... Look, it ain't happening, and if it did, they'd have to blow up the Tremere, which ain't happening.

Auspex, An in-clan discipline, can warn you with flashes of insight when ****'s about to go south, if you don't somehow pick up on it with some other amazing auspex use. Tremere Clan elders have a lot of Auspex, their guards have some, and their fortress is warded. The Tremere elders would be able to get out of dodge before some miserable surprise was attempted. They probably would've learned about the plot when it was plotted.

It's one extremely improbable event after another. The V5 writers just wanted to make some noise without putting thought into how it'd be done or how it'd play out.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Except they did hack into it, and they did blow up the Tremere chantry. There was even a teaser video on YouTube before the game released that was a message from the SI to vampires everywhere that their days are numbered. Schreknet is pretty terrible concept anyways, based on hilariously outdated misunderstanding of how the internet actually works. (Darknet is a cheesy holdover from the 90s that really needs to go away. Everything "darknet" are just hidden pages like log in screens and the like).

Edit: They've always called themselves the Children of Haqim, just read the 2 clan books. (The first one is hot garbage but does support that they've been using the name for millennia amongst themselves) Assamite is a more "modern" name in the lore than Banu Haqim. They've only officially adopted it as their name since joining the Camarilla (which was a revised edition change btw).

-These historical events all happened in different times. No such event occured with putting the original curse on the Assamites.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Revised and V20 both are pretty clear on the events, and they're supported by V5 continuity. Tremere antitribu are nearly wiped out and are very small in numbers. The Tremere cursed clan Assamite back when Tremere was still fighting for control of his body with Saulot. Tremere lost that battle and has been running around in the body of Goratrix since revised edition. There's a whole chapter for both of these things in Beckett's Jyhad Diary.

Vampires are asexual

This is just flat out incorrect. Vampires are very sexual creatures. The kiss is an allegory for rape, and in every version of the game they still feel sexual desire, and there are many examples of vampire lovers in the game. The hunger for blood is merely a stronger urge than carnal pleasure.

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly, I suspect that ShreckNet 3.12.5 has already been released as a WhatsApp/Telegram style app, and that Nosferatu have set up new server farms and data centres, with work on breaking into Second Inquisition communication networks already underway. They've probably also left some of the older infrastructure lying about as a misdirection and source of misinformation to the three Second Inquisition off their scent. I mean what are the Camarilla going to do, come into the sewers to dismantle them themselves? I mean, ShreckNet 2.0 was somewhat stupid, but the Nosferatu can do better. And then encrypt it.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Honestly, I suspect that ShreckNet 3.12.5 has already been released as a WhatsApp/Telegram style app, and that Nosferatu have set up new server farms and data centres, with work on breaking into Second Inquisition communication networks already underway. They've probably also left some of the older infrastructure lying about as a misdirection and source of misinformation to the three Second Inquisition off their scent. I mean what are the Camarilla going to do, come into the sewers to dismantle them themselves? I mean, ShreckNet 2.0 was somewhat stupid, but the Nosferatu can do better. And then encrypt it.

There's still the Technocratic interference angle to consider. After the events in Bangladesh they have every reason to consider vampires a greater threat than before. Active efforts to help mortals cull their numbers is the least they'd likely implement into the Pogrom going forward. Vampires are an active threat to humanity's stability and must be destroyed.

And this edition is the one most likely to use meta plot elements, since the pitch was "one world of darkness" from the very start.

[The Jack]

Except they did hack into it, and they did blow up the Tremere chantry.

It was approved for the story, therefore it's good writing.

Schreknet is pretty terrible concept anyways, based on hilariously outdated misunderstanding of how the internet actually works. (Darknet is a cheesy holdover from the 90s that really needs to go away. Everything "darknet" are just hidden pages like log in screens and the like).

Modernize the idea and replace the misunderstandings with likely options; It'd work.

Edit: They've always called themselves the Children of Haqim, just read the 2 clan books. (The first one is hot garbage but does support that they've been using the name for millennia amongst themselves) Assamite is a more "modern" name in the lore than Banu Haqim. They've only officially adopted it as their name since joining the Camarilla (which was a revised edition change btw).

They have always refered to themselves as the children of Haqim. However, Arabic is only 1500 years old. They've got a choice; Be the 'children of Haqim' in the local language, or be the Germany of vampires where nobody uses the current name they give themselves. 'Assamite' is probably far older than Arabic; It sounds like something you'd find in the old testament.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Revised and V20 both are pretty clear on the events, and they're supported by V5 continuity. Tremere antitribu are nearly wiped out and are very small in numbers. The Tremere cursed clan Assamite back when Tremere was still fighting for control of his body with Saulot. Tremere lost that battle and has been running around in the body of Goratrix since revised edition. There's a whole chapter for both of these things in Beckett's Jyhad Diary.
.

Yes, yes, I'm aware...
But (alright, I've mostly avoided metaplot books) I've not read anything to say there's a relevant connection.

The Tremere didn't use anything to wipe out the antitribu except for probably the vault of tremere blood. Nothing else happened when that kill switch fired.

The Tremere curse on the assamites was an impresive bloodline curse using assamite captives and those who'd surrendered, anyone who'd got methuselah or perhaps just elder-level magic could do this. Cases in point: The Baali giving assamites the Thirst curse and Ur-Shulgi waking up to brush off the Tremere curse.


I don't see how Tremere could metaphysically benefit from exploding his supporters and letting his clan loose.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Be the 'children of Haqim' in the local language

Most of those who go by this name speak Arabic as their first language, and are much less than 1500 years old. I'm not seeing the problem here. Even the oldest among them follows Islam and primarily uses Arabic. Banu Haqim is how they'd refer to themselves in nearly every setting and always has been. Assamite is how other clans refer to them, and that hasn't really changed.

The Tremere didn't use anything to wipe out the antitribu except for probably the vault of tremere blood. Nothing else happened when that kill switch fired.

We don't actually know that. It was never explained, hence my speculation of what occurred being a power move by Tremere against Saulot.

I don't see how Tremere could metaphysically benefit from exploding his supporters and letting his clan loose.

There's numerous benefits! He's one of the parties who gained the most from these things. Would you want your entire clan rallied against you by an ancient monster far older than anything you know of posing as yourself? I sure wouldn't. Saulot's machinations are definitely not wholesome.

[The Jack]

So we're agreeing with Germany? Look, I wasn't around for Germania, but generations of english speakers have been passing down the name.
Consider though; Assamites aren't presently 'the Muslim clan'. Quite frankly they've been trying to ditch that 'muslamic raygun' stereotype and it's bizzare that they wanna go back into it. Last clan books I read, the Clan was embracing non-arabs, and I think some of the of non-arabs would be unimpressed by the arabic, particularly since they're recruiting from western soldiers in the middle east. I do also recall the ancient elders huffing and harring about the influence of islam in the Sect and wanting to fight against it...

man it's just elder levels of magic. Curses and Traitor killing were just for-the-clan moves. House Tremere as a whole benefited from that thing.

For the last... He's had this issue for a thousand years, surely he could wait thirty more when the clan's in a better and stable position? Does he want to come back to ruins|?

[fishyfishyfishy]

The Banu Haqim who were upset about Islam stuck with Ur-shulgi and the main clan. The followers of Islam who were being persecuted by him are the ones who left and joined the Camarilla. Of course they're going to use Arabic.

I neither agree or disagree with anything regarding Germany. Every German person I know calls it Germany when speaking English.