Finally Saw Captain America Civil War

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Thankfully I managed to dodge spoilers until I finally got around to seeing the movie last week. Spoilers ahead, lol.

Well. It's a pretty grim tale of how the least super of the MCU villains did the most damage to the Avengers as a group. Bruhl's Zemo is tragic in many ways. A sad man bent on vengeance, killing more innocent people in the process. And the "success" of his plan likely has negative ramifications for the future of the world. That he could actually pull all of that off is impressive, given that he probably doesn't have that many resources compared to his enemies.

I like that they didn't adhere too closely to the derpfest which was the comic book storyline. I honestly couldn't tell you which side had it right. It bothers me that they blame the people trying to help for collateral damage instead of, you know, the actual criminals terrorists and alien invaders which were doing the bad things (except Ultron, which was 100% on Stark) but that seems to be a running theme here.

But Tony Stark. Was he joking about the pain in his left arm? Even so, that's pretty grim humor. He continues to unravel throughout the film culminating in a vicious fight sequence where I believe he was actually trying to kill Bucky! But when Zemo plays for him the scene of his parents' death I can't really blame him for flipping out either. The ending shows some hope for reconciliation but it doesn't look like it'll come easily.

I also think Rogers could have handled the situation a little better. Wanda being under house arrest isn't IMHO reason enough to storm out like a self righteous butt. There was a real opportunity to negotiate. Did he not tell Stark about HYDRA's involvement in his parents' deaths? Why not?

We also see a lot more of non-brainwashed Bucky. He's really had a rough time, and the scene where Zemo recites the activation phrase is heart-wrenching. He goes from subdued acceptance to panicked terror as Zemo calmly paces around him reading the words.

Action wise it was an awesome romp. From the first Crossbones encounter to the airport fight to the tragic final brawl, all good stuff. Spider-Man and Ant-Man were both surprisingly great in their own ways. Parker chattering away during the entire thing, effectively going toe-to-toe with Bucky, Cap, and Falcon. Then Lang stealing the shield back and then pulling off the biggest distraction play ever. The goofy laugh he does after becoming a goddamn giant just seals it for me.

Just enough humor and lighter moments, and well placed in my view. Tony Stank isn't a very sophisticated gag, but it was appropriate given how tense preceding events were.

Overall, I thought it was a good movie.

[Leewei]

I also liked it quite a bit, especially the occasional humorous side scenes like the ones involving Bucky and Falcon in the VW Bug. I'm guessing it's a timing thing, but this movie really should have been in the Avengers series. The cast is enormous, and most of the team is present.

[Cikomyr]

My favourite MCU movie to date. With the most compelling story IMHO

[Giggling Ghast]

I'm glad to see an actually potent Spider-Man for a change.

If the Winter Solider had tried to punch Tobey Maguire, he would have been knocked out of the fight and then start crying about how he failed Uncle Ben.

If he punched Andrew Garfield, he would have flown across the airport and killed Gwen Stacey on impact.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Man. It's gonna be hard for any MCU (non-Netflix) villain to live up to Zemo. But then again, the Russos are also directing Infinity War. I'm kinda stoked at the prospect of them getting their hands on Thanos.

[The Glyphstone]

Thanos will be awesome, but I don't know if he'll be able to beat Zemo as a villain. Part of what makes Zemo so awesome isn't just that he did so much with so little, but that he was by far the most human villain any of the Avengers have faced. He didn't want to take over the world or anything grandiose, he just wanted revenge for the deaths of his family, and his 'evil plan' (the world is better off without superheroes) is just compelling enough to be seductive.

[Pex]

Thanos will be awesome, but I don't know if he'll be able to beat Zemo as a villain. Part of what makes Zemo so awesome isn't just that he did so much with so little, but that he was by far the most human villain any of the Avengers have faced. He didn't want to take over the world or anything grandiose, he just wanted revenge for the deaths of his family, and his 'evil plan' (the world is better off without superheroes) is just compelling enough to be seductive.

He's also the only villain to succeed, if not literally in the way he wanted. He did "kill" The Avengers.

They'll regroup somehow for the next movie, but for now he won.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Yeah I think Zemo is a good villain for a number of reasons. He achieved his goal with just determination, patience, and skills. But at the same time he lacks the memetastic charisma often attached to successful villains. He's a quiet, sad man who ends up tearing apart a genuine if flawed group of heroes. At no point in the movie (as I recall) does he ever start swaggering or even smiling about his achievement.

It also highlights T'challa as a heroic figure. After spending the movie pursuing Bucky, he finally gets to meet the real culprit, and then makes the effort to take him in alive. And then he chooses to harbour Bucky, at no small risk to his nation.

[Aedilred]

I've enjoyed all the MCU movies, albeit some were much better than others, but it has to be said that by the start of this year they were starting to feel a bit samey. I appreciated the effort made by Civil War to break the mould of these pictures while still retaining all the elements that make the films charming and fun. I am still not sure it quite measures up to the first Avengers film, which I think might just be the best superhero film of all time (X-Men 2 and The Dark Knight being the other serious contenders, to my mind) and we'll have to see how well it ages, but I thought it was on the whole a really positive step for the series. That it seems impossible to form a consensus among fan circles on whether Tony or Cap was in the right shows it did its job well.

[BWR]

That it seems impossible to form a consensus among fan circles on whether Tony or Cap was in the right shows it did its job well.

Or poorly, considering the major issues I have (and have seen listed some places) is that both sides were idiots and handled things badly.

That said, Tony was right despite being an ass about it.

[Cikomyr]

I think The Avengers is the most straight up enjoyable movie. Its focused, to the point and is filled to the brim with energy. MovieBob also is 100% on the money when he talks about the meta narrative of the movie.

Civil War is.. more ponderous. But also, in my opinion, more intellectually satisfying. Avengers appeals to the Guts.

[Thinker]

Or poorly, considering the major issues I have (and have seen listed some places) is that both sides were idiots and handled things badly.

That said, Tony was right despite being an ass about it.

Otherwise smart people do idiotic things all the time. That they didn't sit and think about or talk out their issues in a rational manner is simply human, not a flaw of the movie.

[Lvl45DM!]

Going a bit off topic here, but to me the best superhero film is either The Incredibles or Unbreakable.

Those movies only work within the framework of the existing superhero narrative, Dark Knight and X2 dont need movies outside their franchises to hold them up

[Cikomyr]

Wait. X-Men 2 is considered one of the best superhero film..?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Somehow the Captain America films are kind of grim.

The first one ends with him choosing to crash into the ice and essentially jump into a future he doesn't understand, missing a lifetime he could have spent with Carter. The scene where they set up the fake 1940s hospital must have been really disturbing for him.

Second one. SHIELD has been completely corrupted by HYDRA, and they're planning mass murder of potential enemies using three super Helicarriers. Cap is forced to flee from his former allies. Steve's old friend Bucky is revealed to have spent the past decades as a brainwashed HYDRA assassin. Carter is alive but bedridden and seems to be suffering from dementia.

Third one. Wanda accidentally kills civilians while redirecting Crossbones' suicide vest. We get shown previously unseen collateral damage from previous movies. Carter dies. Avengers essentially split. Rhodes is paralyzed. Nat is disappeared. Bucky chooses to go back into ice. Nobody seems to know where Thor and Hulk are. Only Stark and Vision remain active on the "official" team, which is now bound by the Accords. Everyone else, except for Spiderman who appears removed from the equation for now, is on Steve's side, and therefore international fugitives despite saving the world a few times.

Can't wait to see how the next Avengers film clears up the mess.

[Dienekes]

Somehow the Captain America films are kind of grim.

The first one ends with him choosing to crash into the ice and essentially jump into a future he doesn't understand, missing a lifetime he could have spent with Carter. The scene where they set up the fake 1940s hospital must have been really disturbing for him.

Second one. SHIELD has been completely corrupted by HYDRA, and they're planning mass murder of potential enemies using three super Helicarriers. Cap is forced to flee from his former allies. Steve's old friend Bucky is revealed to have spent the past decades as a brainwashed HYDRA assassin. Carter is alive but bedridden and seems to be suffering from dementia.

Third one. Wanda accidentally kills civilians while redirecting Crossbones' suicide vest. We get shown previously unseen collateral damage from previous movies. Carter dies. Avengers essentially split. Rhodes is paralyzed. Nat is disappeared. Bucky chooses to go back into ice. Nobody seems to know where Thor and Hulk are. Only Stark and Vision remain active on the "official" team, which is now bound by the Accords. Everyone else, except for Spiderman who appears removed from the equation for now, is on Steve's side, and therefore international fugitives despite saving the world a few times.

Can't wait to see how the next Avengers film clears up the mess.

I think the grimness has to be a part of Captain America movies to be palatable. Steve Rogers is in most things just an all around swell guy, morally upstanding, dedicated in his convictions, and (when written well) isn't a hypocrite about them. Which, honestly, in a vacuum isn't really an interesting or dynamic character. But a character whose main characteristic is morality becomes interesting when their morals are tested, when they are put in direct contrast to the bleakness of a setting. So, Cap movies kind of have to be a bit on the bleak side to make them interesting.

But, as to the Accords and if they were right.

In the real world, yes, the Avengers being forced to be put under collective oversight would be a good thing.

In the MCU, Hell no. We're talking about a setting where the first attempt at a cross-governmental oversight program on heroes 1) tried to nuke New York, which would have made it easier for conquering army to get a foothold on the planet. 2) Was entirely infiltrated by super-Nazis a couple of years ago. 3) The program is being lead by freaking Thunderbolt Ross. Ross! The idiot that actively antagonizes a living super weapon, and set up a triggering event of said super weapon in a university, and a crowded metropolis. Hell, if I was Cap I wouldn't sign the damn things either as long as that incompetent's name was within an inch of the plan.

[Kyberwulf]

Tony wasn't right. Bucky was given no attempt at a trial. It was KoS. The whole thing was too rushed, and they thought they could take down a superpowered being, with just normal guys.

The way I see it. The superpowered people are pretty much a Nation onto themselves. You don't just hand over your military might to a committee. I think that the Avengers should have created a council or something of normals in their own Tower, that would help them negotiate through Bureaucracy. In times of crisis though, they shouldn't have to wait, nor ask permission to act. It is more about the Hubris of man, to want to control everything, and to think you have the power to protect and defend yourself at all times. When Situations like the world ending events in the movies happen. It's more akin to a Major Natural event, then it is an act of an invading force. No matter how well equiped your armies are. you aren't going to be able to shoot a tornado down. Or Fly missiles into a Volcano to kill it. The best you are going to be able to do is help people move out of the way, and wait for it to be over.

My problems with this whole movie, and the mcu. Is that the world should have superpowered heroes of their own. I am talking about places like Europe, Asia, or Africa. I think Black Panther is a step in the right direction.

[Pex]

Tony wasn't right. Bucky was given no attempt at a trial. It was KoS. The whole thing was too rushed, and they thought they could take down a superpowered being, with just normal guys.

The way I see it. The superpowered people are pretty much a Nation onto themselves. You don't just hand over your military might to a committee. I think that the Avengers should have created a council or something of normals in their own Tower, that would help them negotiate through Bureaucracy. In times of crisis though, they shouldn't have to wait, nor ask permission to act. It is more about the Hubris of man, to want to control everything, and to think you have the power to protect and defend yourself at all times. When Situations like the world ending events in the movies happen. It's more akin to a Major Natural event, then it is an act of an invading force. No matter how well equiped your armies are. you aren't going to be able to shoot a tornado down. Or Fly missiles into a Volcano to kill it. The best you are going to be able to do is help people move out of the way, and wait for it to be over.

My problems with this whole movie, and the mcu. Is that the world should have superpowered heroes of their own. I am talking about places like Europe, Asia, or Africa. I think Black Panther is a step in the right direction.

Then you'd have Superhero Wars as nations attack each other by proxy if not direct. One nation's superhero is another nation's supervillain. What are people supposed to do if Captain China starts harassing Taiwan? Captain India and Captain Pakistan are duking it out in the Kashmir? As for what Team Israel constantly has to face . . .

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The superpowered people are pretty much a Nation onto themselves. [...] In times of crisis though, they shouldn't have to wait, nor ask permission to act.

No nation is allowed to send their military into another nation "in times of crisis" without permission. Those are called invasions, and they are generally frowned upon. In fact, it was the very fact that the Avengers deployed to the African nation without permission or, as far as we can tell, even bothering to inform the local government that caused the Sokovia accords in the first place. If the local authorities had known what was about to go down, they would have moved the diplomatic meeting well away from the epicenter, and probably would have been around to remove civilians. Instead, the Avengers got a heck of a lot of people in danger of the cross fire.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah I think Zemo is a good villain for a number of reasons. He achieved his goal with just determination, patience, and skills. But at the same time he lacks the memetastic charisma often attached to successful villains. He's a quiet, sad man who ends up tearing apart a genuine if flawed group of heroes. At no point in the movie (as I recall) does he ever start swaggering or even smiling about his achievement.

It also highlights T'challa as a heroic figure. After spending the movie pursuing Bucky, he finally gets to meet the real culprit, and then makes the effort to take him in alive. And then he chooses to harbour Bucky, at no small risk to his nation.

Arguably he has Bucky in a special SuperMax prison, which will be enough for most everyone.

[Leewei]

The way I see it. The superpowered people are pretty much a Nation onto themselves.

A couple of thoughts:

Some of the Avengers - Black Widow, Hawkeye, Iron Man, War Machine, Panther, Falcon - aren't superpowered. They have their own category as enormously talented, but non-super, people, often with special gadgets.

Secondly, that nation idea may be a good theme for future MCU movies and series. By their nature, those who have superpowers are separate from everyone else. The experience of being different is something that nearly all such beings will struggle with. It seems like individuals would define their identity as supers, even above race and national origin.

[Cikomyr]

Please be warned. Discussion of the Accords and the underlying politics led to the first Civil War thread to be closed.

[Murk]

Hm. While I found the movie overall to be quite alright (if I don't think about it too much), I really disliked Zemo as a villain. I seem to be in the minority here

I have a thing against villains that are supposed to be "normal", "average guys" that are "strong adversaries without having powers" - I mostly dislike them because they do things that average guys without powers simply can't do.
Zemo knew a lot. He knew who to find. He knew who to talk to. He had secret classified footage from over thirty years ago. What made him even start looking for that? Just trying to think about the process behind his plan is confusing: so his family got killed, he decided he wanted revenge (so far so good), so he started digging in secrets of an organisation from decades ago, hoping to find material that could hurt the avengers? He somehow knew this would align with a big political shift? Did he actually expect to find information that would personally involve one of the Avengers? And in the end, when he was sitting in a secret base somewhere, and saw Cap and Bucky arrive, but not Stark, did he think "no problem, I just know Stark will turn up too!"

There's much more than that. To pull this all of, Zemo had to be some kind of psychic oracle that could personally bargain with the gods of fortune.
Which is no problem. It's a superhero movie after all. But then they tell me "oh, no, this is just a regular guy".

[Kyberwulf]

Well, that's the thing. If all the captain :insert Country name. did start something. That's what the Avengers are for. To step in and stop it. Which, by the way, is what happen in civil war. Captain America did step in when he wasn't suppose to and started things. What happen? The Avengers stepped up and put him in his place. Tony defeated the whole purpose of the Accord, but undermining it at every possible point he could. He was consistently ignoring Ross's orders in that whole movie. In the end, he put all of the villians into prison.

It also further proves my point, that the only one who can really stop villains are super heroes. Because Captain no shield did a one man break out, of their supermax prison.

Also, you can quibble all you want about what a "superhero" is, but come on. Most of those guys have superpowers. Basically meaning, the Training to use them, and the luck to not die. Every other "normal" human in that universe can't even do half of what those guys can do. Even the most, human of the group, Hawkeye. Can do a no look shoot down of a target that is going pretty fast. Black Widow is able to grab a vehicle going pretty fast, with no ill effect. Not to mention survive an explosion inside a truck, also with no ill effects. Falcon survived a point blank shot from Iron Man. Not to mention Iron Man is so smart he can basically do Technomancy. Black Panther was moving around pretty easily on those stairs doing jumps and falls like a Champ. I know Black people are good at physical stuff..but come on. Rhodes is pretty normal... Probably why he was the only one that was really hurt.. He still survived a pretty long fall, i would say probably a couple thousand feet. I still think he was the only one to get hurt was because he was the only racial Minority on the team, and they had to make room because they just got the Panther.

[Leewei]

I know Black people are good at physical stuff..but come on.

You may well have a good point, aside from this. Watch those stereotypes.

[Lethologica]

Those movies only work within the framework of the existing superhero narrative, Dark Knight and X2 dont need movies outside their franchises to hold them up

All of these movies depend on the established context of the superhero narrative. Their use of that context is a large part of what makes them good movies. Judging them by how well they work without context is therefore missing the point.

FWIW, I think all four are top-class superhero movies and great movies in general.

[Hopeless]

Zemo got access to the intel Widow released at the end of the Winter Soldier movie, he was able to use this to trace Hydra's involvement during their slow takeover of SHIELD to locate enough of their background to learn about the Winter Soldier and what part of the Russian Military had control over him.

Unlikely I know, but someone had to have told Pierce so he could make use of Bucky so if they wanted to maybe Zemo used that intel to locate something Pierce had hidden and discovered how Bucky was used as an assassin maybe he located an Arnim AI who used him to help get revenge on the Avengers as that's something that entity would do?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, remember that Zemo's research methods were a bit more direct than just reading a lot of stuff on the Net.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Black Panther's origin is not explored at all. He may have elite training, be biotechnologically or magically enhanced, or something like that.

Zemo's plan does seem to depend on a lot of specific things happening. But "just as planned" is a common occurrence for these kind of characters in fiction so I let it slide.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Black Panther's origin is not explored at all. He may have elite training, be biotechnologically or magically enhanced, or something like that.

Zemo's plan does seem to depend on a lot of specific things happening. But "just as planned" is a common occurrence for these kind of characters in fiction so I let it slide.

I don't know what the plans are in the MCU for T'Challa's powers but in the comics and other official fiction it's sometimes science, sometimes magic, and usually both. He definitely does have superpowers though, physical prowess at least to the level of Captain America, as much training as Hawkeye or Black Widow, and tech about the same level or better than Iron Man. He's like a homegrown Wakandan version of Thor.