Finally Saw Captain America Civil War

[Chen]

Yeah it's definitely story reasons/character personality that prevent Spidy from wiping the floor with a number of the people in that fight. 616 Spidy is lifting in the 20ish ton range I think. If he was going full out he should easily have been able to take out Cap and Bucky.

[Dienekes]

Spider-man is so strong, and Peter is such a nice guy, that he's basically always holding back his strength. Superior Spider-man was surprised to realize that in the previous Dr Octopus - Spidey fights, Spider-man was hitting significantly less hard than he could have.

Captain America can't do this, for example, but when it comes to harming other people Spider-man doesn't hit with that strength, especially if it's other good guys, he loses a big part of the advantage he'd have on Cap.

Don't underestimate the Cap. Ok he might not be as strong as Spidey but he can lift a lot

http://m.imgur.com/butRPnR?r

I think the explanation given usually is Cap naturally fights battles like a master tactician. In that he can basically do the Sherlock Holmes thing (from the Downey Jr movies) and can tell what the opponent is going to do before the fight even begins. That plus a shield that straight negates all force behind any of Spidey's attacks makes it a fight, even if still logically Spidey should have the advantage.

[Cikomyr]

So... Basically what he does in the movie?

He figures out Spidey's style and gives him a few good licks

[Clertar]

Don't underestimate the Cap. Ok he might not be as strong as Spidey but he can lift a lot

http://m.imgur.com/butRPnR?r

Still an abbyss between them. I see your statue and raise you a tank and a train

[Chen]

Not to mention spiderman has his spidey sense too. Even Cap being a master tactician shouldn't really let him beat him in a stand-up fight.

[Legato Endless]

So... Basically what he does in the movie?

He figures out Spidey's style and gives him a few good licks

The film version is justified enough because Cap is blatantly superhuman and Peter is a total rookie. Most comic versions only work by writer fiat, where Peter is an order of magnitude faster, stronger, far more agile, coupled with precognition. Not to mention he's sometimes more relevantly experienced in metahuman fights.

Even the holding back explanation doesn't really work. There's nothing stopping Peter from casually dodging everything Cap throws and wrapping him up nonlethally with a substance capable of immobilizing various incarnations of the Hulk.

[Kyberwulf]

How did this turn into a Spiderman Vs. Captain America fight?

Anywho, Captain America Wins. In this scenario at least.

Power vs. Power, yeah, Cap would lose. He is outclassed in almost every way. The only thing I think Captain America Has on Spiderman, is his ability to think superfast.. or something like that. Also, Spiderman, doesn't have precog. He has instant reaction and some pretty good reflexes. He however doesn't know hat the future holds, where things are going to come from, or what is coming at him. His spider senses can be overloaded.\\

In this fight, though. Spiderman just doesn't have to jones to kill. I don't think he ever really does.

I know, I know,... In a "DEATH BATTLE" we are suppose to assume they want to kill each other. Most people assume that just means PowervPower. Most people however, don't take in characteristics into consideration. I think that is a HUGE misstep to take. Barring any familial entanglements. Spider.. Ahem, Peter Parker just doesn't have what it takes to win. Captain America does.

[Legato Endless]

In this fight, though. Spiderman just doesn't have to jones to kill. I don't think he ever really does.

I know, I know,... In a "DEATH BATTLE" we are suppose to assume they want to kill each other. Most people assume that just m.

Why would that matter? Spidey doesn't need to kill him to win. There's no Death Battle justification here. Peter spends every other week casually knocking out average humans to supers with far superior physical abilities, despite many of them trying to kill him. The only difference is Cap is shielded by the mystique of the merely 'peak human', which allows him to break physics whenever cinematically appropriate. Cap wins because he's Marvel Batman, except he compensates for lacking an improbable array of gadgets with even more ludicrous physical stunts.

It doesn't matter how fast you can think when your body moves a fraction of the speed at your opponent.

[Keltest]

Why would that matter? Spidey doesn't need to kill him to win. There's no Death Battle justification here. Peter spends every other week casually knocking out average humans to supers with far superior physical abilities, despite many of them trying to kill him. The only difference is Cap is shielded by the mystique of the merely 'peak human', which allows him to break physics whenever cinematically appropriate. Cap wins because he's Marvel Batman, except he compensates for lacking an improbable array of gadgets with even more ludicrous physical stunts.

It doesn't matter how fast you can think when your body moves a fraction of the speed at your opponent.

Don't forget, Spider Man has had his powers for what, a couple months? And he's a teenager. Cap is a full grown adult, which gives him a size and reach advantage, and is a trained soldier with years of experience, which means he knows how to fight effectively beyond just "hit something really hard".

[Gandariel]

I think it's pretty well represented in the movie.

Spiderman is physically better than Cap at pretty much everything, but Cap wins because he's more experienced.

Also, nobody was trying to kill anyone there.
Spiderman was probably not even using his full strength, either.

It's really not the point of the airport fight, but what the film *hints* is that Spiderman could easily beat Cap (and many others) given training.

[Clertar]

How did this turn into a Spiderman Vs. Captain America fight?

Did you miss the main action piece in the film?

[ben-zayb]

Did you miss the main action piece in the film?

Nah, Black Panther's action scenes were too awesome to miss.

[Cikomyr]

Nah, Black Panther's action scenes were too awesome to miss.

The girlfriend and I had long discussion about who was in the Right during Civil War (Cap or Iron Man).

We settled on Black Panther both winning and being in the right.

[Legato Endless]

Don't forget, Spider Man has had his powers for what, a couple months? And he's a teenager. Cap is a full grown adult, which gives him a size and reach advantage, and is a trained soldier with years of experience, which means he knows how to fight effectively beyond just "hit something really hard".

I meant in the comics where Cap consistently inexplicably wins. I fully agreed the Civil War fight is justified by Cap's far superior experience, in addition to being a lot more powerful than his comic incarnation.

[Kyberwulf]

Meh, it feels more like a death battle, because people keep bringing other variations on the characters. Comics, previous incarnations of the character's movies. If we are going solely off this Cinematic universe. I am saying Captain America wins hands down. Yeah Peter was holding back. So was Captain America, because.. he was fighting a Kid. The fact is, this incarnations of Parker has.. what... 7 minutes of ability showcasing? In a fight, EVERYONE was holding back on.

This Peter Parker has no real information to go on yet. Just fyi.

[lord_khaine]

Meh, it feels more like a death battle, because people keep bringing other variations on the characters. Comics, previous incarnations of the character's movies. If we are going solely off this Cinematic universe. I am saying Captain America wins hands down. Yeah Peter was holding back. So was Captain America, because.. he was fighting a Kid. The fact is, this incarnations of Parker has.. what... 7 minutes of ability showcasing? In a fight, EVERYONE was holding back on.

Well of course people are bringing up the other variants, its been a discussion of the comic fights for a little while now, mainly due to people in general seems to agree on how silly it is for Steve to win there despite the difference in physical power. Its honestly close to writers wanting us to believe Iron fist could take down Hulk because he is so much more skilled a fighter. (and yeah i know, wastly exaggerated)

I meant in the comics where Cap consistently inexplicably wins. I fully agreed the Civil War fight is justified by Cap's far superior experience, in addition to being a lot more powerful than his comic incarnation.

I honestly dont even mind this, i like that it seems like they have dropped that stupid bit about "peak human" and instead just made him plain superhumen.

[Clertar]

I guess Captain America is the only superhero that, rather than being depowered in the MCU adaptation, actually became more powerful

[lailahussain889]

Its my favorite movie series and always wait for its latest part.

[lord_khaine]

I guess Captain America is the only superhero that, rather than being depowered in the MCU adaptation, actually became more powerful

I would say that Black Panther also got a decent boost. But yeah, in general all the strongest ones were made weaker, and some of the weaker ones got a slight boost somewhere.

[Erys]

Spider-man is so strong, and Peter is such a nice guy, that he's basically always holding back his strength. Superior Spider-man was surprised to realize that in the previous Dr Octopus - Spidey fights, Spider-man was hitting significantly less hard than he could have.

Captain America can't do this, for example, but when it comes to harming other people Spider-man doesn't hit with that strength, especially if it's other good guys, he loses a big part of the advantage he'd have on Cap.

As mentioned above, MCU Captain America is way stronger than other incarnations.

https://youtu.be/-pnOXuRI0vM

[Dienekes]

I guess Captain America is the only superhero that, rather than being depowered in the MCU adaptation, actually became more powerful

I'm actually not so sure. Comicbook Cap has done some really, really crazy things like it was nothing. The comics just don't really play it up as anything special. It is just regarded as normal that the guy can literally tell where a bullet or rocket is coming and always has his shield in the way. It's just sort of shrugged off that he can beat up Iron Man, and can go toe to toe with the Hulk. The only explanation given is just "super soldier, plus, you know, he's CAPTAIN F****ING AMERICA!" and that's all the explanation that was needed.

[ben-zayb]

I would say that Black Panther also got a decent boost. But yeah, in general all the strongest ones were made weaker, and some of the weaker ones got a slight boost somewhere.

Maybe compared to the initial issues of BP, yes. But now, isn't it more of a badass and sleeker Iron Man + Batman suit?

[Kyberwulf]

I don't know if they got a boost, and the others got a nerf. I just think it's more of the fact, you get to see the comics in motion. When that happens, your expectations don't quite match up with seeing. I mean being told, and shown a picture of someone running really fast, or lifting something really heavy. It doesn't seem as impressive as it should be. Until you see Usaine Bolt bolt run. Or some powerman competitions.

Same with Other super heroes, such as Iron Man. You are told he is pretty fast when he lets his Iron Rip and he flies across the sky at super speeds. Then you actually see it, and.. he is this little spec flying so slowly High in the sky. The other side, is you see some hulk lift stuff, and it looks good. Yet, it just a computer generated thing. Not saying it isn't cool, just saying your suspension of disbelief isn't there.

[Clertar]

Maybe compared to the initial issues of BP, yes. But now, isn't it more of a badass and sleeker Iron Man + Batman suit?

Besides the suit, he's also the last of a century-long line of master king-warriors, and he was made the avatar of Death or something. The man can fight, in any case.

[lord_khaine]

Maybe compared to the initial issues of BP, yes. But now, isn't it more of a badass and sleeker Iron Man + Batman suit?

You dont think suddenly being bulletproof and having adamantine Vibranium claws is a buff?

I don't know if they got a boost, and the others got a nerf. I just think it's more of the fact, you get to see the comics in motion. When that happens, your expectations don't quite match up with seeing. I mean being told, and shown a picture of someone running really fast, or lifting something really heavy. It doesn't seem as impressive as it should be. Until you see Usaine Bolt bolt run. Or some powerman competitions.

Same with Other super heroes, such as Iron Man. You are told he is pretty fast when he lets his Iron Rip and he flies across the sky at super speeds. Then you actually see it, and.. he is this little spec flying so slowly High in the sky. The other side, is you see some hulk lift stuff, and it looks good. Yet, it just a computer generated thing. Not saying it isn't cool, just saying your suspension of disbelief isn't there.

No, if you actually look up the feats of the heavy weight members like Thor, Hulk and Iron Man then its pretty clear we are only getting a weaker version. Just to pick an example, then comic Thor can travel though both time and space with his hammer.
Meanwhile Cap is getting actual superhuman strenght, so a degree where he can actually fight against Iron Man, and the unpowered members are getting a lot more to do. I think its pretty clear that the gap between the Avenger members has intentially been lessend.

[GloatingSwine]

You dont think suddenly being bulletproof and having adamantine Vibranium claws is a buff?

A buff relative to what?

Those are just basic features of Black Panther. If anything he's not as powerful in Civil War as he should be, because he doesn't have any of his usual array of supernatural enhancements as part of his connection to the panther god yet.

[Anteros]

You dont think suddenly being bulletproof and having adamantine Vibranium claws is a buff?



No, if you actually look up the feats of the heavy weight members like Thor, Hulk and Iron Man then its pretty clear we are only getting a weaker version. Just to pick an example, then comic Thor can travel though both time and space with his hammer.
Meanwhile Cap is getting actual superhuman strenght, so a degree where he can actually fight against Iron Man, and the unpowered members are getting a lot more to do. I think its pretty clear that the gap between the Avenger members has intentially been lessend.

It's not as though Cap has never fought against Iron Man in the comics. Heck, that was the basis for the whole Civil War thing in the first place.

[lord_khaine]

A buff relative to what?

Those are just basic features of Black Panther. If anything he's not as powerful in Civil War as he should be, because he doesn't have any of his usual array of supernatural enhancements as part of his connection to the panther god yet.

Fair enough, seems like i have not managed to keep up with how much he has already been buffed in recent years, movie version does indeed seem like it were weaker than the comic version.

It's not as though Cap has never fought against Iron Man in the comics. Heck, that was the basis for the whole Civil War thing in the first place.

As i recall that fight were mainly ideological. In a straight up fight with the comic version he should be squashed like a pumpkin.
At least against the version that can casually lift a tank and survive a direct hit from a nuke.

[Legato Endless]

It's the nature of adaptions to change things to suit the story. The MCU can't be consistent with the comics by the simple virtue various incarnations of the characters diverge substantially. From personality changes to abilities. To take a different Marvel property, in the anime X-men Storm is visibly fatigued from casting a few lighting bolts. The 90s cartoon has to maintain control to not unleash the full extent of her powers and conjure storms capable of wrecking everything in sight.

For one example with nothing to do with motion, the MCU Destroyer is tougher than the average Asgardian but Thor obliterates it once he's sufficiently motivated. The comics incarnation is muchtougher, designed to fight Celestials and Thor's go to strategy against it is to maintain consciousness while desperately waiting for whatever spell or consciousness controlling it to wear off.

[Kyberwulf]

Not to mention that the MCU people haven't gotten any of their power up that came from what... 70 years of shinnanings? Of course they don't have much of their powers. As far as I know, they haven't really had anyone powerful enough to challenge them, as often in the comics. Any of them. They get powerful as they get experience in life or death Struggle. They find new and inventive ways to use what they have? I mean, the incredible hulk sat around for what 3 years in the MCU? Before he was found by Black Widow?

I mean take a look at the fight in Captain America. It was Iron Man vs Captain America AND Bucky. One has a Shield that is Invincible, the other has an ARM that is pretty durable. The fight starts. Iron Man pretty much ignores Captain America, so he can get Bucky. The WHOLE TIME... Cap is messing up Iron Man's suit. At no point did I think that Captain America was in any postion to one shot Iron Man. Heck I am sure if Iron Man turned and fought Captain America with his suit fully intact. I am sure he would have won. But He didn't. So Captain American was able to bring him down, and damage his suit enough. So when Iron Man decided Captain had to be taken out. He turned and almost won. But BUCKY came back and saved Captain America. Then the both beat on him, and Iron Man was STILL Able to turn the tide Mid-fight. And proceeded to kick Captain America in the stars. Captain America still almost loses. It wasn't a curb stomp.

The other thing, is that Captain America almost loses a lot. He always comes back not because of his amazing feats. He comes back because he almost always has Backup. That's why he wins, he uses a lot of team work.