Dragon Ball Super

[Xihirli]

Still bros, just fighting. All couples go through stress.

[Daer]

Spoiler: ep80+games

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I wonder if this being second weakest universe is part of the reason why Gohan in later time (from online and such) starts to teach ki usage to people .. Really interested to see how Super will tie up the gap to games.. like majin race coming a thing and Trunks ending to time patrol and all.

[Callos_DeTerran]

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Because the fact that Goku made it into a sick game that marginally makes the situation better makes it AAAAAAAALL ok.

Because abstract universal purposes make the arbitrary destruction of billions of innocent lives for petty to no reason, AAAAAAAAAALL ok.

Because being replaced by a completely different person to do this twisted stupidity all over again, makes being forced to fight or watch ten people you don't know fight just for a chance to keep on existing, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLL ok.

Because there being a twisted evil plan behind this makes it AAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL A-OK.

Because randomly deciding this without the input of countless people across multiple universes who probably don't even know that these beings even exist because of childish reasons makes it AAAALL ok!

Your overthinking this. This so black and white that one could put devil horns on both Zenos without a trace of irony.

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...I'm over-thinking this? I'm not the one that called Zeno a Darwinist based off of absolutely nothing.

Zeno was and still is what he has always been, essentially a child with nigh ultimate destructive power. Power that we don't know what he's meant to use for cause its obvious he's not a fighter and didn't develop the abilities on his own via training. Zeno has those abilities for a reason and we don't know what that is.

What's more this still doesn't make Zeno any different from any of the Gods of Destruction. Are they evil cause they gotta destroy things and sometimes people happen to live there? Should they take a poll of a planet's inhabitants about if their planet should be destroyed or the neighboring one that also has people on it? Cause that'd be super helpful. 'Hey, I need to destroy some of the universes. Think I should get rid of yours?' Yeah, I can really see people voting 'sure, go right ahead if it needs to be done'.

Fact is, you're referring to a being that quite literally is so far beyond the concept of regular morality that you couldn't even see it on the horizon. You're calling Zeno evil cause he's the kid stepping on anthills and you happen to live in the anthill despite having no clue why he's doing it.

That ain't black and white at all. You can choose to see it that way if you want but fact is there's no right or wrong side to take, and this is coming from someone who was firmly convinced Goku was a massive idiot for causing all this. Turns out even Goku isn't too much to blame cause he's the only reason one of the 'slated to be erased universes' has a chance to save themselves.

[Xihirli]

Spoiler: ep80+games

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And Future Goten needs to become the Masked Saiyan.

[Anteros]

I've seen speculation from some translators that universe citizen level might not actually be related to power level. They said it's more things like development, or "good" that push the ratings up.

I thought it was power level too when I saw the episode, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Starbuck_II]

It kinda defeats the whole purpose of yet more transformations for the saiyans, but whatever. The whole show would've always been better off without the whole transformation nonsense since that's specifically restricted to the space monkeys and space monkey/gaian monkey hybrids. Or at least if it were made less significant; but Toriyama loves multiplying by even numbers so it can't be helped I guess. At least he's writing it so that none of that matters, at least very much. Like, the 10x Kaioken in SSB clearly didn't multiply Goku's power by 10.

It's nice to have the whole cast be somewhat relevant; in Z it was kinda silly that the premise of the show was the whole group of Z-Fighters, but practically speaking Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo did 99% of the relevant stuff with guest appearances by Tienshinhan and Krillin in the pre-Android sagas. The whole really works better when the heroic ensemble actually has a semblance of relevance.

I always thought it doubled it then added a 10% boost per number. So, Kaioken is just 3x PL (double then 10x10%)

[Anteros]

Officially it's a multiplier. So if you have 25,000 PL and use X3 it puts you at 100,000. Just toss it in the pile with the rest of the power level stuff that makes no sense.

[golentan]

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...I'm over-thinking this? I'm not the one that called Zeno a Darwinist based off of absolutely nothing.

Zeno was and still is what he has always been, essentially a child with nigh ultimate destructive power. Power that we don't know what he's meant to use for cause its obvious he's not a fighter and didn't develop the abilities on his own via training. Zeno has those abilities for a reason and we don't know what that is.

What's more this still doesn't make Zeno any different from any of the Gods of Destruction. Are they evil cause they gotta destroy things and sometimes people happen to live there? Should they take a poll of a planet's inhabitants about if their planet should be destroyed or the neighboring one that also has people on it? Cause that'd be super helpful. 'Hey, I need to destroy some of the universes. Think I should get rid of yours?' Yeah, I can really see people voting 'sure, go right ahead if it needs to be done'.

Fact is, you're referring to a being that quite literally is so far beyond the concept of regular morality that you couldn't even see it on the horizon. You're calling Zeno evil cause he's the kid stepping on anthills and you happen to live in the anthill despite having no clue why he's doing it.

That ain't black and white at all. You can choose to see it that way if you want but fact is there's no right or wrong side to take, and this is coming from someone who was firmly convinced Goku was a massive idiot for causing all this. Turns out even Goku isn't too much to blame cause he's the only reason one of the 'slated to be erased universes' has a chance to save themselves.

Might does not make right. Having a title (like Overseer, or God) doesn't make your actions justified.

I've made the "too big for morality" argument in the past, for beings who literally are incapable of noticing mortals as a thing or assigning them moral weight. The gods of Dragon Ball aren't there, they can and do form relationships with mortals, they do understand concepts like death, they play favorites, they have humanlike appetites and interests.

Without a damn good explanation for why "failing to do this will bring far greater harm in the future," Raziere is right on this.

Zen'oh is evil. Beerus is evil.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I've seen speculation from some translators that universe citizen level might not actually be related to power level. They said it's more things like development, or "good" that push the ratings up.

I thought it was power level too when I saw the episode, so take it with a grain of salt.

Interesting...

Might does not make right. Having a title (like Overseer, or God) doesn't make your actions justified.

I've made the "too big for morality" argument in the past, for beings who literally are incapable of noticing mortals as a thing or assigning them moral weight. The gods of Dragon Ball aren't there, they can and do form relationships with mortals, they do understand concepts like death, they play favorites, they have humanlike appetites and interests.

Without a damn good explanation for why "failing to do this will bring far greater harm in the future," Raziere is right on this.

Zen'oh is evil. Beerus is evil.

*shrug*

Its a fair stance to take but not one I share cause, honestly, we know far, far too little about Zeno to make any judgement calls on him. We know far to little about what the gods are expected to be doing to make calls on that either.

Beerus is capricious as hell, this does not mean he is evil. It doesn't mean he isn't either. He is, in some way, involved in the workings of the universe, same as Zeno.

You can call it just a title, but he's the King Above All for a reason, even if we don't know it. Cause, frankly, without the Grand Priest (and maybe those two guys with him?) someone could have offed As no already but people speak of him in nothing but glowing terms.

[Lord Raziere]

Might does not make right. Having a title (like Overseer, or God) doesn't make your actions justified.

I've made the "too big for morality" argument in the past, for beings who literally are incapable of noticing mortals as a thing or assigning them moral weight. The gods of Dragon Ball aren't there, they can and do form relationships with mortals, they do understand concepts like death, they play favorites, they have humanlike appetites and interests.

Without a damn good explanation for why "failing to do this will bring far greater harm in the future," Raziere is right on this.

Zen'oh is evil. Beerus is evil.

I always find such attempts at "Yozi/Cthulhu Morality" to be nothing more than evil wearing a squid-hat anyways. Mostly because their existence seem to be nothing but detrimental and the people who worship them end up becoming evil in the process of acceding to their demands. Evil by any other name....is still Evil. A psychopathic serial killer's mind set is alien to me, doesn't mean they aren't evil.

But your right, the gods of Dragon Ball do not fall into such "inhuman" categories, they are very much just humans writ larger than life. Zeno is just a child who thinks all of reality is his toy, Beerus is a food connoisseur who uses his high standards as an excuse to blow up planets and doesn't question WHY people must be randomly destroyed for no reason yet demonstrates a measure of morality every time SOMEONE ELSE threatens the universe, Whis is a mysteriously calm dude who also loves food yet many things are starting to imply that he is more allied with Zeno than Beerus, while Beerus is getting more motivation to side with the mortals- Beerus has been getting some subtle character development while Whis has stayed the same.

My prediction: Beerus has been bitten by the Goku charisma bug. He will betray Zeno for Universe 7. Whether out of good motives to protect the people he has interacted with or out selfish ones to protect his own life or both, I don't know but if you've been paying attention, Beerus has been gradually changing and we all know what happened the last two times a former villain spent too much time on Goku's side.....

[Rater202]

Beerus is not evil--it's quite explicitly stated that old plants have to be destroyed before new planets can be created.

To paraphrase TFS, he's basically the guy who demolishes the abandoned gas station so that something else can be built on the lot.

Honestly, "are the people polite and is the food good" is a better judgment of whether a planet deserves to be destroyed than some other "Destroyer Types" in fiction.

I don't think Zeno-sama is "evil" per se, either. Zeno is essentially a small child that happens to be omnipotent. A small child doesn't really have a concept for things like death or how the world works--they just want their needs and desires catered to and throw a fit when they don't get their way. I honestly think that what happened is that many, many generations of Gods are just afraid to explain to Zeno-Sama that casually whiping out universes becuase he's in a bad mood is wrong and he's too young in God Years to have matured to the point of unserstanding it himself...

I'm now predicting that Goku is going to win and forsake his wish on the Super Dragon Balls to instead ask Zen-chan to pretty please not kill everyone, which then results in someone from Universe Seven finally giving Zeno the "actions have consequences" talk.

[golentan]

I always find such attempts at "Yozi/Cthulhu Morality" to be nothing more than evil wearing a squid-hat anyways. Mostly because their existence seem to be nothing but detrimental and the people who worship them end up becoming evil in the process of acceding to their demands. Evil by any other name....is still Evil. A psychopathic serial killer's mind set is alien to me, doesn't mean they aren't evil.

I think of it in terms of the Flu on that one. The flu has killed a lot more people than evil men ever have, but it's not evil. It's just dangerous: Its existence is inimical to human life, and it has no chance of being reasoned with, it does not play by the same rules that we do.

A crazed doctor who seeks to harness the power of the flu to found the first cult of K'Flu-hu would be evil. Someone seeking to weaponize the flu against their enemies would be evil. But the virus itself just kind of is, it does its own thing, and while it's perfectly reasonable to try to stop it calling it names which ascribe malice or motive is kinda silly.

I figure that it works just as well on the opposite end of the power/intellectual scale: Viruses are not evil because they are too small and stupid to recognize humans as having value, humans are big and intelligent enough that we treat such microorganisms as mindless and meaningless except in massive numbers which cause us momentary inconvenience before (usually) our own autonomous sub-processes commit genocide without our conscious direction, there may well be things big enough physically or mentally that they don't even notice human scale beings.

Humans are made of trillions of cells and don't freak out much when a few million die in the course of scratching an itch, a thing made similarly of trillions of minds probably doesn't see why a single mind would consider itself valuable, even though a protist very similar to one of our cells struggling to survive in a big hostile world might well be horrified that our own cells regularly commit suicide en masse because we're bored or hungry if we could explain those things to it.

[Frozen_Feet]

@Callos and Rater202: you're both conflating "necessary evil" with "not evil". These are not equivalent.

Based on the new series, it seems DBS multiverse runs on some sort of balance between creation and destruction. As a corollary, everything that lives must die and everything that has been created must be destroyed sooner or later. In such a setting, people like the Gods of Destruction may well be necessary for any life to exist, but it does not follow such Gods are good. Beerus in particular appeared derelict of his duties upon his introduction and in general is something of an *******.

Another way to think of it is that Beerus is the benchmark for evil in his universe: he's the worst example of a whimsical planet-destroying prick which can be cosmically justified due to mechanics of the multiverse.

Oh, and while we're at it:

Might does not make right. Having a title (like Overseer, or God) doesn't make your actions justified.

But Zeno's title as the Cosmic King is not just a tittle. He genuinely is a Capital-G God in his context. Whenever such entities are present, a reasonable person bites the bullet of Divine Command Theory and accepts that things are good if and when Zeno decrees them so. All other moral guidelines are subjective at best and in denial of the setting's reality at worst.

From an utilitarian perspective, serving Zeno is also a good thing, in fact it may be the only truly good thing. Why? Because as noted, there's a cosmic balance. All living things must die and all things created must be destroyed. The net sum of the multiverse is zero... save for Zeno. As far as we know, Zeno is the only truly permanent creature in DBZ multiverse. Hence, only pleasing Zeno has permanent consequences, and thus is the the only good. To look it another way, since Zeno has infinite power, he also has infinite potential for good and compensation, and hence worship of Zeno, no matter how slim a chance it has of working, is always worth it.

So both from deontological and utilitarian perspectives, Zeno is Good, and worshipping Zeno is Good, perhaps the only True Good.

[Lord Raziere]

Or the whole creation/destruction thing is a big bowl of bull. Rulers always lie for their own benefit to justify staying in power. The gods of DBS seem no better than any other mythology in how selfish gods can be. and why is Whis exempt from being erased while Beerus is not? this means there will be seven Angels that just aren't active, why? If Zeno is all powerful, why preserve them? Could he not just destroy Whis along with Universe 7 and make another?

There is the existence of the Super Dragon Balls. If Zeno was truly omnipotent, he wouldn't need any Dragon Balls to grant someones desires. Yet at the dawn of time he had them created. Therefore its possible that he can only destroy. Its not as if we've seen him able to do anything else.

and then there is Gowasu, our prime source for this idea of a balance of Creation and Destruction. and I'm not convinced he was speaking literally there. what he says can be interpreted as the Kais acting as positive guiders of mortals while the Gods of Destruction are supposed to punish people, essentially acting as carrot and stick to the God's desires.

While the "stronger universes get to survive without any need to participate" is straight from the darwinist handbook. If there is truly supposed to be a balance, why should greater strength matter at all? Furthermore, why four universes? Think about it, how is it balanced for more than half of the Universes to be destroyed? If there was a balance, would you not try to maintain it by only destroying six? With five Universes surviving as they inevitably will, would there not be an imbalance? Furthermore, what about the fact that there used to be 18 Universes? How do they factor into the balance?

oh and then there is MAKAI. Yeah. the demons down there, who are pure evil, how do they factor into this? Seems awfully weird they exist. Shouldn't their realms be like......instantly destroyed by the Gods of Destruction or something? Yet they exist. how do they figure into this whole balance thing, if this balance exists?

Or how about the fact that the gods disallow time travel, despite the only two times it was used it only led to the problem getting solved sooner or later rather than being not solved at all.

and then there is the biggest flaw of all: Two Zenos. For some untold eons, there has been one. Now there are two. This is significant, because there are shown to be differences between the two. Minor ones yes. But any difference is enough to cause disagreement, and there is a reason why you don't have two kings on the throne.

FURTHERMORE- if this whole Destruction/Creation balance is true, why was anyone so hell-bent on defeating Majin Buu? He was just doing the God of Destructions job for them!

and then there is how the universe looks after Zeno has destroyed it: a white void filled with colorful stars. Now is that truly complete destruction? I think not. the universe technically still exists and stars could once again form it all back through the natural processes of gravity and radiation, its not destroyed its just been reset back to its beginning stages. if Zeno was truly omnipotent, there would be nothing left, not even stars, and no reformation.

All of this means....that there are processes outside Zeno's control. The very fact that he is ignorant of Majin Buu at all speaks of how in the dark he is about how everything else works, despite Buu being arguably being on same level as Zamasu in terms of threat if not exactly sheer power. Heck, Zamasu killed the gods of Destruction and their Kais and Zeno didn't even notice until Goku called him.

There are too many holes in the theory that it all runs on Creation/Destruction Balance. Nor any particular explanation as to what the consequences would be if this balance wasn't adhered to. The only consequences that came of one Kai's greatest attempt to disrupt it all were all the things that Zamasu himself wrought, with no indication of anything bad happening to reality and its underlying structure because of one god or another's absence.

Something just doesn't add up about this whole thing or how the gods explain it.

[Eldariel]

I find the whole idea of applying individualistic morality where living beings have a value to cosmic and universal beings silly. Killing others in terms of individualistic morality is evil but at the same time death is a necessary part of life and removing death would be a far greater transgression that would lead to the destruction of whatever habitat such beings live in with extreme speed. Human morality arises from human interaction and desire to live and let live, yet nothing can survive without consuming something for nutrition. Depending on how the universe(s) work, Beerus destroying planets or Zenou destroying universes is probably just a part of the inherent functioning of the multiverse - removing the old to make way and provide materials for the new. That is, they are no more evil than forest fires or comets. Their actions being evil would require them to have the option to choose otherwise and if they are indeed an intrinsic part of the natural regulation systems of all existence, chances are they have no such thing. They're forces of nature, not humans. It seems obvious they don't destroy because they want to, but because they must - or all existence ceases for a reason or another. There's no balance if there's only birth and no death - such a system is not sustainable.

[Frozen_Feet]

Or the whole creation/destruction thing is a big bowl of bull. Rulers always lie for their own benefit to justify staying in power.

Neither Zeno nor the Kaioshins have any incentive to lie to justify their rule. Pretty much everyone who is not Goku accepts Zeno's rule due to his proven ability to destroy anyone and -thing.

The gods of DBS seem no better than any other mythology in how selfish gods can be. and why is Whis exempt from being erased while Beerus is not? this means there will be seven Angels that just aren't active, why? If Zeno is all powerful, why preserve them? Could he not just destroy Whis along with Universe 7 and make another?

The Angels seem to be extrauniversal; that is, they do not originate from nor are they tied to the existence of the universes they serve in. This doesn't mean Zeno couldn't destroy them; for all we know, he just chooses not to.

There is the existence of the Super Dragon Balls. If Zeno was truly omnipotent, he wouldn't need any Dragon Balls to grant someones desires. Yet at the dawn of time he had them created. Therefore its possible that he can only destroy. Its not as if we've seen him able to do anything else.

"Zeno had made the device which can grant any wish" is not a good argument against Zeno's omnipotence.

and then there is Gowasu, our prime source for this idea of a balance of Creation and Destruction. and I'm not convinced he was speaking literally there. what he says can be interpreted as the Kais acting as positive guiders of mortals while the Gods of Destruction are supposed to punish people, essentially acting as carrot and stick to the God's desires.

This "carrot and stick" AKA Heaven and Hell is actually much lower down the cosmic totem pole. The balance between Creation and Destruction is not about Good and Evil; the Kaioshins would like them to overlap, but in practice they don't.

While the "stronger universes get to survive without any need to participate" is straight from the darwinist handbook. If there is truly supposed to be a balance, why should greater strength matter at all? Furthermore, why four universes? Think about it, how is it balanced for more than half of the Universes to be destroyed? If there was a balance, would you not try to maintain it by only destroying six? With five Universes surviving as they inevitably will, would there not be an imbalance? Furthermore, what about the fact that there used to be 18 Universes? How do they factor into the balance?

+13 and -13 equate to zero just as well as +7 and -7, but the former has bigger intrinsic values than the latter. Caring about this may be simply an aesthetic preference on the part of Zeno (see above: things are good because Zeno says so). As the sum of each universe individually is zero, the exact number of universes doesn't really matter and is, again, based on arbitrary preference by Zeno.

oh and then there is MAKAI. Yeah. the demons down there, who are pure evil, how do they factor into this? Seems awfully weird they exist. Shouldn't their realms be like......instantly destroyed by the Gods of Destruction or something? Yet they exist. how do they figure into this whole balance thing, if this balance exists?

As noted, the balance between Creation and Destruction has jack squat to do with balance between Good and Evil. It only matters that the God of Destruction destroys enough of something. They don't really have to care about what or why, and Beerus perfectly embodies this attitude, flat out saying at several points that a God of Destruction doesn't need to justify his destructive acts.

Or how about the fact that the gods disallow time travel, despite the only two times it was used it only led to the problem getting solved sooner or later rather than being not solved at all.

FURTHERMORE- if this whole Destruction/Creation balance is true, why was anyone so hell-bent on defeating Majin Buu? He was just doing the God of Destructions job for them!

and then there is how the universe looks after Zeno has destroyed it: a white void filled with colorful stars. Now is that truly complete destruction? I think not. the universe technically still exists and stars could once again form it all back through the natural processes of gravity and radiation, its not destroyed its just been reset back to its beginning stages. if Zeno was truly omnipotent, there would be nothing left, not even stars, and no reformation.

You can get back to me once there is actual proof an universe destroyed by Zeno reforming, as such is yet absent from the series.

There are too many holes in the theory that it all runs on Creation/Destruction Balance. . . .
Something just doesn't add up about this whole thing or how the gods explain it.

Aye, but some of those holes only exists because you keep making assumptions which question the evidence. The Giant himself had something to say about this phenomenom... to paraphrase, "sure, you can make assumptions which challenge the events shown and then argue it's all a big hoax... but just as well you could different assumptions which don't challenge the events and accept them at face value".

Untill the series actually validates some of your musings, your concern stand on very feeble ground. For example, we'd need a reveal of yet another tier of supernatural beings above Zeno, or confirmation that Zeno cannot create.

[Lord Raziere]

Well here is what I believe:

Dragon Ball has never been about being grimdark or following to conclusions that don't end well for the universe at large.

Every time there has been some big threat that by all rights should destroy everything.....they are defeated, or befriended, the Dragon Balls are used and the damage is erased.

The person attempting to destroy most of existence now, is Zeno. Goku may have caused this arc to start and he is at fault to be sure, but Zeno is the being actually carrying out the deed. let us recognize what this is: a story, a Dragon Ball story and the narrative logic upon which it runs:

Goku due to his foolishness, causes a fight that could be avoided. Goku steps back so that everyone else can fight against the villains and his minions until the big bad comes in and defeats everyone, then Goku comes in and saves the day right when it all seems hopeless. That is the logic upon which it runs, more iron-clad than any in-universe explanation.

This is also a tournament arc. if you think that this won't end with something going horribly off the rails, someone standing up and saying how wrong this is, you don't know Dragon Ball. Zeno's destroying of the Future Trunks timeline was not played heroically, but for horror.

We're watching a tournament where a childlike god has gathered the strongest fighters across all of reality, to fight for his amusement, many of which probably care about their own lives or fight to protect others, just so he can destroy all those who don't survive. This is so clearly a villain set up. Your reading too much into it by thinking that this is anything other than the current evil ruler of reality double-dog-daring people to rebel against him in a grand display of thoughtlessness. Its not as if Zamasu's ridiculous power and immortality prevented him from getting punked by a guy with a sword.

You say that Zeno actually losing in whatever ridiculous way they conjure up would be bad writing and yes it probably would. But is it going to happen anyways? Probably! Because remember: POWER LEVELS ARE BULL. and Zeno made the mistake of relying on them for his judgement. Just watch, something will go off the rails, a big battle will ensue and something about this will change with the Universes coming out intact. because that far more likely to happen than any philosophical nonsense about Zeno being the one true thingawhatsit of grimdark cyclical stupidity.

[Seracain]

Just to clear something up, the Super Dragon Balls weren't made by Zeno, but by an individual called Zalama. Zalama is apparently the Dragon God, what this entails or means or if its even relevant is up in the air.

[Lord Raziere]

Just to clear something up, the Super Dragon Balls weren't made by Zeno, but by an individual called Zalama. Zalama is apparently the Dragon God, what this entails or means or if its even relevant is up in the air.

Yes, this is what I meant. this furthermore proves my point: why would a supposedly omnipotent being have an attendant make Dragon Balls for him? Zeno has only shown powers of destruction and not of creation, nor has there been any evidence or the universes naturally reforming or Zeno having the power to reform them. Therefore Zeno is only a being of destruction. He requires the Dragon Balls to reform or make universes for him. I base this assumption on the fact that the show revolves around the Dragon Balls and that there is no shown method for creating new planets or universes yet ASIDE from the Super Dragon Balls.

Let us be more logical and realistic: Zeno took the rulership of all reality because he can kill the most people in a single blow, then he frightened everyone into doing his bidding like any tyrant then ordered Zalama to make the Dragon Balls for his own petty desires complete with the "pwease" command at the end to summon them. Somewhere along the line he made up a thing about balance of Creation and destruction- something that hasn't been really explained in any detail or made any particular importance to any plot. Its supposedly a thing yet we haven't been given any good reason why it is a thing.

Furthermore there is the infinite void outside the twelve universes- isn't this already destruction? Destruction is Zero. There is no "negative" to Creation's positive. Destruction is removal of existence, a non-existence, the void is the purest expression of Destruction, not the null state. You cannot get more destroyed than Zero, therefore the logic that Zero is balanced, does not hold.

[Tono]

Or he is just the over-all God of Destruction. All the 'Angels' serve GoDs. Zeno has an angel. So, Zeno is a God of Destruction. If so, he probably has an equal or opposite like Beerus/Supreme.

Or, more likely, someone thought it would be cool/funny to have a child-like God. I doubt think its super well thought out.

[lord_khaine]

Could it be Zero were just the ultimate god of destruction, having Zalama as his creation opposite?

[F.H. Zebedee]

Even if destruction is zero, maybe there's only a certain potential for life/creation within each universe, or maybe even all of reality? It's like the unit limit in Starcraft... Sometimes, you need to kill off a couple Zerglings so you have room for your Ultralisks.

In a grand scheme morality, this means that sometimes destruction is necessary- You'll have planets and races that stagnate, and are eating up space that could be better used. For example, the Saiyans were a brutish race that largely just terrorized others and aped (heh) the technology of races that actually tried to progress. Removing them means that another world could arise, with a better chance at being a positive influence in the universe.

[golentan]

But Zeno's title as the Cosmic King is not just a tittle. He genuinely is a Capital-G God in his context. Whenever such entities are present, a reasonable person bites the bullet of Divine Command Theory and accepts that things are good if and when Zeno decrees them so. All other moral guidelines are subjective at best and in denial of the setting's reality at worst.

Then feel free to call me an unreasonable person, because I don't care that Zeno is a Capital G, I don't give a damn that he has unlimited power to do as he pleases, he's a threat to innocent lives and he's a danger to his own creations.

Just because I have a child doesn't give me the right to beat them. And just because I have a nuke doesn't mean that the city it's pointed at should fall to their knees and worship me.

Zeno is a kid, but kids can be plenty bad. Maybe he's spoiled rotten, as seems to be the case with his emotional outbursts whenever things aren't his way. Maybe he's a bully with the biggest gun collection. In the end, it doesn't really matter, he and the order of gods propped up around him blow up people who question the one true way of doing things, for reasons as petty as "the food was terrible," and when asked their answer seems to be "Oh, it's for the greater good, don't question it or I'll blow you up too." Quite literally, Whis and Beerus and the High Priest have threatened that as a consequence for meddling in the affairs of gods.

Appeal to force is not only a fallacy, it's a fallacy that enrages me like no other, and my willingness to bend the knee to such arguments is only ever contingent on an improved ability to plot rebellion in secret. Doesn't matter how big the force is, if it has no better moral argument than "I'm strong, you're weak," my answer can be delivered by one finger. Especially given how little the divine order seems to care about the needs and cares of their mortal subjects. What, making a bad fish course is grounds for instant genocide but mass torture-slaughter under Frieza's rule just gets a wink and a nod? It's consistent, to be fair, but it ain't a pretty picture.

[Lord Raziere]

oh and just to point out the plot and narrative structure thing:

Three powerful beings arrive on Earth looking for a fight. One of them arrives a year apart from the other two.
DBZ/DB Super:
Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta/Golden Freeza, Whis and Beerus

One of these beings proves weaker than the other two and easily defeated but not without Goku getting shot through the chest, yet kills at least one of the Z-Fighters.
DBZ/DB Super:
Raditz/Golden Freeza

The second of these two proves to be nothing but a comical foil to the more serious one who is annoyed at the second being, but the second being is irredeemable because of his evil.
DBZ/DB Super:
Nappa/Whis

The third of these beats up everyone but manages to kill no one despite his overwhelming power. Goku faces him and proves that he is a worthy opponent despite the third being being more powerful and technically winning, yet as he spends more time on Earth comes to soften and care for it more despite still being anti-heroic and thus is eventually redeemed.
DBZ/DB Super:
Vegeta/Beerus

The Z-Fighters then go search for a bigger set of Dragon Balls out in space for some reason and get introduced to a wider, bigger world than the one they are used to, then face a person that can stop time.
DBZ/DB Super:
Guldo/Hit

After that, they face an over-the-top body-switcher who threatens Goku's life.
DBZ/DB Super:
Ginyu/Zamasu

Vegeta faces a fat pink alien and a feminine alien who can turn into a muscular powerful form.
DBZ/DB Super:
Zarbon and Dodoria/Female Broly and the other female alien shown fighting Vegeta in the opening

Goku faces a burly purple alien in a cheesy uniform.
DBZ/DB Super:
Ginyu/Purple Picard Alien shown fighting Goku in the opening

Goku then goes on to fight a ridiculously powerful short tyrannical ruler that everyone is afraid of, that no one thinks one can possibly beat, who gets unreasonably angry when their demands are not met, and in the process Goku breaks all his limits past the point where anyone thought it was even possible, defeats the tyrannical ruler with a new unforeseen power and saves everyone from his evil empire of massive destruction.
DBZ/DB Super:
Freeza/Zeno.

BOOM. Thats the sound of your minds being blown. Zeno is the second Freeza. It all fits the narrative pattern.

[Anteros]

I think if anyone is portrayed as evil by the show it will end up being the High Priest and the others of his race. I doubt Toriyama wants to write a story where Goku essentially murders a child. We'll find out the Priest has been manipulating Zeno behind the scenes and Goku+cast will have to take him down.

Or maybe the show will just never address these issues at all and we'll all be left extremely unsatisfied with the plot. It would be par for the course for Super plotlines.

[Lord Raziere]

I think if anyone is portrayed as evil by the show it will end up being the High Priest and the others of his race. I doubt Toriyama wants to write a story where Goku essentially murders a child.

Kid Buu says hi. as does Cell, since he is technically only 6 years old. and Piccolo Jr. since at the time he faces Goku in Dragon Ball he is only 3.

oh and all five Cell Juniors, they are only a few minutes old when they die.

oh and Krillina and Chiaotzu both died when they were children, Gohan experienced a lot traumatic stuff when he was a child. Dragon Ball is full of children getting slaughtered.

[Anteros]

Kid Buu says hi. as does Cell, since he is technically only 6 years old. and Piccolo Jr. since at the time he faces Goku in Dragon Ball he is only 3.

None of those characters were portrayed as anything less than mature when they died. Kid Buu wasn't a kid in any sense aside from it being in his name.

Zeno is depicted as a human like child. It's a big difference.

[Lord Raziere]

None of those characters were portrayed as anything less than mature when they died. Kid Buu wasn't a kid in any sense aside from it being in his name.

Zeno is depicted as a human like child. It's a big difference.

See my above point about Krillin and Chiaotzu dying when they were children in Dragon Ball.

oh and Trunks and Goten died when Kid Buu blew up the planet. Krillin's daughter Marron died when Super Buu attacked them......Dragon Ball is full of horrible things happening to children.

[Anteros]

Do you really not see the difference in the examples you keep giving and having an arc centered around Goku killing a child who views him as a friend? Or are you just being difficult?

[Xihirli]

Even ignoring that, I don't think Goku will become strong enough to challenge Zeno, at least not this arc.