Dragon Ball Super

[Starwulf]

https://www.inverse.com/article/2489...-super-toonami For those like me who haven't been able to watch it yet, this is great news :) DBS will air on Toonami starting Jan 7th! Woot Woot!

[Dragonus45]

I heard it was the other way around...all the previous movies were non-canon but Battle of the Gods and Resurreaction of F were...in part because they became the first two arcs of Super...or are the movies non-canon because you're supposed to use the Super interpetations of events...?

My understanding is that all of the movies take place in something like their own canon and that Battle of the Gods and Resurrection of F were at one point the official continuations of the main series, but now it Super is the official take on the way things happened.

[HolyDraconus]

My understanding is that all of the movies take place in something like their own canon and that Battle of the Gods and Resurrection of F were at one point the official continuations of the main series, but now it Super is the official take on the way things happened.

The movies BoG and RoF are technically still canon. It's just that when Super retreaded them, they had more leeway to elaborate more about them then being confined to a 2 hour block. At this point consider the movies the post-it versions.

[The Troubadour]

Aren't all of the previous movies considered non-cannon? I would assume that rule would apply to the new ones, too, wouldn't it?

That's because none of the old ones were written by Toriyama (although at least one - the fifth movie, the one with Cooler's first appearance - used Toriyama's character designs, and Toriyama apparently liked the Bardock special so much he included a shot of it in the manga); "Battle of the Gods" and "Resurrection of Freeza" were.

[Indarra]

Gohan defeat Hit.
Gohan defeat Hit.
Do iiiiiiit

[Lord Raziere]

Gohan defeat Hit.
Gohan defeat Hit.
Do iiiiiiit

I wouldn't place my bets on it. I'd place better odds on Vegeta getting the chance or Goku just coming back and defeating Hit. But then again we got an Arale-sode and a Yamcha-sode, and Future Trunks getting a big defeat moment all on his own. So maybe Gohan will get this arc as a time to shine. Maybe. Assuming he doesn't end up Getting Nothing Done like the last time he became the strongest being in the universe.

[Anteros]

It'll be Goku. This is still Dragonball after all.

[Indarra]

Goku hasn't won a major battle since Buu. He has defeated Winnie the Pooh and won two stakes-less sparring matches (one with Zamasu and one with Trunks). Beerus beat him, he lost to Hit, didn't defeat Zamasu or Black, and Vegeta *defeated* Freeza.

[Kato]

Goku hasn't won a major battle since Buu. He has defeated Winnie the Pooh and won two stakes-less sparring matches (one with Zamasu and one with Trunks). Beerus beat him, he lost to Hit, didn't defeat Zamasu or Black, and Vegeta *defeated* Freeza.

Hardly... he may not have won against Beerus, but he was the first in forever to give him a challenge and thus he calmed him down. Basically the same with Hit. He was the one who caused him to surrended since Goku did the same. And Freeza basically had lost to Goku. Yeah, Vegeta likely could have also beat him on his own but Goku didn't relly "lose" to him.

[Mato]

Goku hasn't won a major battle since Buu.

Well yeah, if you ignore how BoG's Goku could have creamed Beerus as a SSj3G, how he was chillaxing and planning for Vegeta to have some fun and still ended up killing Frieza anyway, he beat Botamo, could of easily won against Hit (manga) he if wasn't trying to get a decent fight going and decided to throw the fight for moral reasons, he did directly beat jello Vegata, and beat Black back several times, Goku hasn't "won" a single fight since Buu.

Maybe the next arc will cave into the fans so we can get another series of boring unexplained asspulls on tertiary characters defeating bland villains and Goku can continue his losing streak.

[Lord Raziere]

Well yeah, if you ignore how BoG's Goku could have creamed Beerus as a SSj3G, how he was chillaxing and planning for Vegeta to have some fun and still ended up killing Frieza anyway, he beat Botamo, could of easily won against Hit (manga) he if wasn't trying to get a decent fight going and decided to throw the fight for moral reasons, he did directly beat jello Vegata, and beat Black back several times, Goku hasn't "won" a single fight since Buu.

.....I don't think thats how the SSJ progression works. I think its more like "there is no SS3 blue" rather than him being able to go in that form at any time. Its more like BoG was the peak above SS3, and there is no such thing as a God SS3, because SS3 is an impractical, energy-guzzling form that has never solved anything ever. Every time it was used against Buu it only made things worse, and didn't beat him at all. Ss3 is basically Trunk's Super Saiyan 3rd grade form but trading bulkiness for lots of hair.

Second, he lost because Freeza planned ahead, that wasn't a tournament fight. that was Freeza getting revenge at any cost, and Goku losing because a guy shot him in the back with a normal laser is a BIG loss for him and big demonstration of his character flaw. and he only killed Freeza at all because Whis felt like rewinding time. when you require whats basically a deus ex machina from of the most godlike characters in the series to fix your mistake, you've lost. If Whis and Beerus weren't there, Freeza would be alive and have gotten his revenge. I hardly call Resurrection of F a victory for anyone. Mostly because how Resurrection of F is how much all the characters involved and the attitudes and mindsets they have acquired about these battles and the Dragon Balls led to the planet being blown up.

no one cares about Jello Vegeta. He is just Vegeta, Goku winning against him is old hat. beat Black back several times? I only saw Goku getting his ass beat even when powered up by his rage over the death of his family.

[The Troubadour]

Yeah, Super Saiyan Blue 3 seems like a hell of a stretch. That said, let's not be unfair to Super Saiyan 3: SS3!Goku would have defeated Fat Buu if he didn't think the Earth needed to stop relying on him (what with him being dead at the time), and if we count the movies, it was SS3!Goku which defeated Hildegarn.

And yeah, Freeza won - even with the grievous miscalculation about his Golden form.

beat Black back several times?

He did. The issue with Black is that he was using Protagonist Power against the protagonists: he kept increasing in power and gaining new abilities as he needed to deal with the situation.

That said, I disagree Goku didn't win any major battle since Buu (which was more of a team effort anyway): he was clearly the MVP in the fight against Beerus, which I think should count as a victory; he was the only one who could fight Hit, and it was only because of him that Hit threw the fight; and he was the one who ultimately defeated Zamasu, even if he needed to call in the King of Everything.

[Xihirli]

Well yeah, if you ignore how BoG's Goku could have creamed Beerus as a SSj3G, how he was chillaxing and planning for Vegeta to have some fun and still ended up killing Frieza anyway, he beat Botamo, could of easily won against Hit (manga) he if wasn't trying to get a decent fight going and decided to throw the fight for moral reasons, he did directly beat jello Vegata, and beat Black back several times, Goku hasn't "won" a single fight since Buu.

Maybe the next arc will cave into the fans so we can get another series of boring unexplained asspulls on tertiary characters defeating bland villains and Goku can continue his losing streak.

Monoka killed Jellyta.

[Lord Raziere]

and he was the one who ultimately defeated Zamasu, even if he needed to call in the King of Everything.

Nope, that was Future Trunks win. Goku gets no points for calling in the universe-ending ruler of everything to take care of the leftover metaphysical nanoplague that Zamasu left behind.

[Dragonus45]

and he was the one who ultimately defeated Zamasu, even if he needed to call in the King of Everything.

Just going to chime in that being involved in that giant painful bull**** ruinous ending to an otherwise spectacular arc does Goku no favors.

[The Troubadour]

Nope, that was Future Trunks win. Goku gets no points for calling in the universe-ending ruler of everything to take care of the leftover metaphysical nanoplague that Zamasu left behind.

How so? Zamasu's "leftover" would have killed them, Goku was the one who came up with the idea and the only one who had the resources to deal with the situation (even if it involved calling someone else). I agree that it greatly cheapens Trunks' hard-earned victory, but that's what happened.

Just going to chime in that being involved in that giant painful bull**** ruinous ending to an otherwise spectacular arc does Goku no favors.

That's not really the point anyway. :-) It's not so much a matter of giving Goku brownie points, but acknowledging that much like in the original "Dragon Ball" manga (which includes the story arcs which would become the "Z" anime), Goku is still the series' main character and, with a few exceptions, is still the one who's going to defeat the main bad guy in the end.

[Anteros]

We can sit here all day and debate technicalities on which fights Goku technically won or not...but at the end of the day, the fact is that he continually has a much better showing than any other character. For example, Goku may not have defeated Hit, but he sure as heck did better than Vegeta, who got embarrassed. It's the same with the Arale fight, or Beerus, or whoever.

Goku may not technically be winning every fight, but it doesn't change the fact that every character besides him exists to be a punching bag so he can show off how great he is. That's the real problem people have.

That's one of the reasons the Future Trunks arc was so popular at first, because it finally subverted this trend. Vegeta finally did something Goku couldn't by overpowering Black, and Trunks got the spotlight by dealing the final blow. It was great....right up until they killed everyone off screen and made the entire arc meaningless.

How so? Zamasu's "leftover" would have killed them, Goku was the one who came up with the idea and the only one who had the resources to deal with the situation (even if it involved calling someone else). I agree that it greatly cheapens Trunks' hard-earned victory, but that's what happened.

I mean, they coulda just left and gone home. Everyone the arc was about protecting was dead at that point anyway.

[The Troubadour]

Goku may not technically be winning every fight, but it doesn't change the fact that every character besides him exists to be a punching bag so he can show off how great he is. That's the real problem people have.

Indeed. Which is a great shame, but honestly, that's always been there; rare were the moments when Goku wasn't the one who defeated the main villain.
That said, the original series was much better in giving the spotlight to other characters. In "Super", of the main characters, only Vegeta and Goku have any importance in the plots, and Vegeta tends to job at critical points to prop up Goku.

I mean, they coulda just left and gone home. Everyone the arc was about protecting was dead at that point anyway.

I doubt Vegeta or Goku would consider running away as winning, though. Also, Zamasu was starting to spread to the "main" timeline.

[Lord Raziere]

I doubt Vegeta or Goku would consider running away as winning, though. Also, Zamasu was starting to spread to the "main" timeline.

Yeah, if they ran, then Zamasu would've probably spread to all possible timelines.

BTW, Zeno won, Goku was just the guy who made the phone call. it doesn't count if Goku can't beat the opponent himself. a loss is a loss.

[Mato]

.....I don't think thats how the SSJ progression works.

In BoG SSG runs out fairly fast leaving Goku to fight Beerus underground in his normal state and Goku reenters SSj1, which is expressly not SSGSS/SSB, to continue fighting as they take things to outer space. According to BoG's depiction, a post-god transformation SSj1 Goku is about as strong as the SSG transformation and my point was he could still have gone SSj2/SSj3.

During BoG/RoF Toriyama wanted to phase out SSj2/SSj3 and simplified things to saying they were variants and it's possible to access their power gain in the normal super form. So we're given a reason why we would never see a SSBSSj3 or w/e. And Super radically alters the events by having SSG last for the entire fight and SSG isn't depicted as a permanent power increase but temporary one. It also fixes RoF inconsistencies by renaming "Super Saiyen God Super Saiyen" to SSB and explaining to be a mix of godly ki and SSj rather than the previously sold as concept of SSG+SSj. And Whis gets a scene where he explains Goku & Vegeta can barely access any god powers at all. Super initially did a better job handling this than the films did and this is why you think SSB and SSj3 can't be combined. But my comment called out BoG and not Super.

But so you know, that terrible Trunks arc did happen and it wasn't a mass nightmare. They gave us Rose which clearly depicts it's possible to create variants of the SSB form, w/e the hell Trunk's form is supposed to be, and reestablishes that Goku's SSj3 form is still more powerful than his SSj1 form because who pays attention to Toriyama anyway? So instead of Goku increasing his powers as a SSB the arc was setting up for a new transformation. It's tell early to tell what through. (super saiyen white!)

[Anteros]

In BoG SSG runs out fairly fast leaving Goku to fight Beerus underground in his normal state and Goku reenters SSj1, which is expressly not SSGSS/SSB, to continue fighting as they take things to outer space. According to BoG's depiction, a post-god transformation SSj1 Goku is about as strong as the SSG transformation and my point was he could still have gone SSj2/SSj3.

During BoG/RoF Toriyama wanted to phase out SSj2/SSj3 and simplified things to saying they were variants and it's possible to access their power gain in the normal super form. So we're given a reason why we would never see a SSBSSj3 or w/e. And Super radically alters the events by having SSG last for the entire fight and SSG isn't depicted as a permanent power increase but temporary one. It also fixes RoF inconsistencies by renaming "Super Saiyen God Super Saiyen" to SSB and explaining to be a mix of godly ki and SSj rather than the previously sold as concept of SSG+SSj. And Whis gets a scene where he explains Goku & Vegeta can barely access any god powers at all. Super initially did a better job handling this than the films did and this is why you think SSB and SSj3 can't be combined. But my comment called out BoG and not Super.

But then that terrible Trunks arc happened. They gave us Rose which clearly depicts it's possible to create variants of the SSB form, w/e the hell Trunk's form is supposed to be, and reestablishes that Goku's SSj3 form is still more powerful than his SSj1 form because who pays attention to Toriyama anyway? So instead of Goku increasing his powers as a SSB the arc was setting up for a new transformation. It's tell early to tell what through. (super saiyen white!)

My understanding was that Rose was the same form as Blue, it's just that Zamasu's ki is different from a normal Saiyans.

[Mato]

My understanding was that Rose was the same form as Blue, it's just that Zamasu's ki is different from a normal Saiyans.

It is compared to a normal Saiyen. It has a mix of godly ki, just like SSB.

We have not been given a reason to suspect there are different types of godly ki as everything suggests it's a whole type all the gods, and trained mortals, share. Personal ki varies, like Black registers as Goku and Zamasu, but if personal ki can result in color changes than Vegata should have his own color. But who knows, you could be right. It's not like they cared to explain anything in this arc.

At least when Evil Buu fused with Good Buu to produce Super Buu we were given a good holding back evil excuse. But when Zamasu fused with Zamasu resulting in a Zamasu+Goku fusion all we're told is he's mortal but no he's actually immortal and also here is Super Saiyen White!

[Anteros]

I mean, his hair was white because Zamasu's hair was white. That's not particularly unreasonable. There are a ton of problems with Super, but that doesn't strike me as one of them.

[Mato]

I mean, his hair was white because Zamasu's hair was white.

Both of Vegito's appearances prove SSj/SSB recolor your hair. Gotanks used the Metamoran method but shows a new hair style that combines both his character's colors and the Potara fusion of Kibito Kai even resulted in style hair neither one of them had. Fused Zamasu has SSj Black's hair in Zamasu's color while Super Saiyen Rose and that doesn't fit in anywhere without making up excuses of assumed exceptions.

It is kind of minor compared to the other things through.

[Anteros]

Both of Vegito's appearances prove SSj/SSB recolor your hair. Gotanks used the Metamoran method but shows a new hair style that combines both his character's colors and the Potara fusion of Kibito Kai even resulted in style hair neither one of them had. Fused Zamasu has SSj Black's hair in Zamasu's color while Super Saiyen Rose and that doesn't fit in anywhere without making up excuses of assumed exceptions.

It is kind of minor compared to the other things through.

Every time we've seen a fused Kai (Elder, Kubito, and Zamasu) they retained the Kai hair color and skin tone. Post transformation appearances seem to greatly favor the Kai if one is involved. I'm much more inclined to believe it's just because Zamasu's hair was white than any type of new super saiyan. Fused Zamasu probably can't even transform since he's no longer a saiyan.

Just because something isn't explicitly explained doesn't mean it automatically "doesn't fit in anywhere". It's far more reasonable to assume that an explanation is possible (even if my personal one isn't correct) than to assume the author is just pulling things out of his rear end.

Speaking of the Rose transformation. Something interesting in the new manga chapter is that Black can't even transform to it. He explicitly tells Vegeta that he can't transform past normal Super Saiyan at all.

[Rater202]

Remember how, back when Patora was introduced, Elder Kai said that fusing while transformed would mean that the fusion would not be able to power down and would thus shorten the fused beings life?

This implies that Potara fusions see whatever form you're in when you fuse as a default state. If Rose is read as Black's default state, then why would the resulting fusion regard the pink hair color as being anything worth noting?

I'd also note that Black and Zamasu have the exact same Ki. That is, Black is not a mixture of Goku's Ki and Zamasu's, Goku's body is the only thing of Goku's that Black has--his body and the potential within it.

So... maybe Super Saiyan Rose isn't actually a Super Saiyan form? Zamsu's ki is pink/purple by default, maybe it's simply a super saiyan like form based on the power that Zamasu already had?

[Anteros]

I'd also note that Black and Zamasu have the exact same Ki. That is, Black is not a mixture of Goku's Ki and Zamasu's, Goku's body is the only thing of Goku's that Black has--his body and the potential within it.

They repeatedly say that Black's ki isn't exactly the same as Zamasu's though. Just that it's very similar.

[gordonpyette]

the dragon ball super arcs are go to be as follows first they did a retelling of battle of gods which has just finished now there doing a retelling of resurrection of f and after that there going to do an original arc about a tournament between universe 7 which is the main dragon ball universe and universe 6 and the only think I know about it so far is that champa (the characters that looks like a fat beerus) is from there. So they mite bring him back from this universe I don't know but it's a possibility. and as for English DUB (as of 11/2/15) they just released episode 17 so it will be a while

[Mato]

Every time we've seen a fused Kai (Elder, Kubito, and Zamasu) they retained the Kai hair color and skin tone.

Grand, East, West, and South supreme kais were normal flesh colored, Universe 6's is green like Zamasu and while Gowasu was yellow, so as you put it it's far more reasonable to assume Elder Kai's original form isn't purple. And Kubito was a kai so you're theory of kai trumps needs a reason why Kubito was ignored. So instead of proving Zamasu's coloring the theory is based on Zamasu and it's circular logic. I think you're trying a little too hard for this.

It's far more reasonable to assume that an explanation is possible (even if my personal one isn't correct) assume the author is just pulling things out of his rear end.

Speaking of the Rose transformation. Something interesting in the new manga chapter is that Black can't even transform to it. He explicitly tells Vegeta that he can't transform past normal Super Saiyan at all.

Normally I'd agree even setting aside the fact that Toriyama does just that but as my repeated complaint with Super's newest arc keeps reminding you of; they never gave one for anything.

And it makes sense, in the anime Black didn't even realize anger made him more powerful.

So... maybe Super Saiyan Rose isn't actually a Super Saiyan form? Zamsu's ki is pink/purple by default, maybe it's simply a super saiyan like form based on the power that Zamasu already had?

According to Toriyama's notes in the ninetieth issue says it's "Becomes a Super Saiyan like Goku, and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku." because he really did pull the transformation out of his rear. Anyway, it confirms Black has the normal yellow SSj form and Rose is a uniquely colored SSj form by the author. Devil's advocate about SSR using godly ki and the rebuttal that Black emits Zamasu-like godly ki and invents the Rose variant after seeing Blue aside. SSR is an official SSj transformation and Vegito proves SSj alters your hair color in two different instances.

Spoiler: New Episode

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Goku learned how to resurrect him self and the writers gave Hit a retcon to skipping time which gives him Obito Uchiha's Kamui.

But the last episode not even a week ago showed Hit being invincibly solid instead of intangible.
And speaking of the last episode. If ended with a cliff hanger of someone being killed. So with bad writing, sloppy pointless cliff hangers, and the 18th chapter's background keeps vanishing. I think I know what Tite is doing in his free time.

[Indarra]

Okay yeah it was a filler arc.

On Goku Black, I don't think any of the Zamasus would know how to use ki that's not godly.