Dragon Ball Super

[Rater202]

Grand, East, West, and South supreme kais were normal flesh colored, Universe 6's is green like Zamasu and while Gowasu was yellow, so as you put it it's far more reasonable to assume Elder Kai's original form isn't purple. And Kubito was a kai so you're theory of kai trumps needs a reason why Kubito was ignored. So instead of proving Zamasu's coloring the theory is based on Zamasu and it's circular logic. I think you're trying a little too hard for this.

The flashback shows Elder Kai as being Purple back when he was just Supreme Kai,and the witch he fused with was flesh colored.

Kibito also isn't a Kai--Kibito is a Shin-jin. Kai ins't a race, Kai is a job. Shin-jin is the race. All kais are Shin-jin but not all Shin-jin are kais. Regardless, being the supreme Kai, Supreme Kai would be remarkably more powerful than Kibito, and would thus be dominant in the fusion.

According to Toriyama's notes in the ninetieth issue says it's "Becomes a Super Saiyan like Goku, and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku." because he really did pull the transformation out of his rear. Anyway, it confirms Black has the normal yellow SSj form and Rose is a uniquely colored SSj form by the author. Devil's advocate about SSR using godly ki and the rebuttal that Black emits Zamasu-like godly ki and invents the Rose variant after seeing Blue aside. SSR is an official SSj transformation and Vegito proves SSj alters your hair color in two different instances.

SperSaiyan Rose ins't even in the manga yet, if at all. Furthermore,as the Manga is written by a different person from the anime and they tell the stories in different ways, you honestly cannot use one as a source when arguing about the other.

Now, Toriyima's claim that SSR is a different color of Super Saiyan? Actually supports my theory--Super Saiyan Rose is pink/Purple because Zamasu' ki is Pink/Purple. He doesn't have Saiyan Ki, he has The Ki of a Supreme Kai of Universe 10. So, even if he's using the mechanics of SSJ, he's still using supreme Kai Ki, not super saiyan ki.

And Vegito never formed while one of his components was Already Super Saiyan. Merged Zamasu did. Furthermore, Merged Zamasu was a fusion between a Supreme Kai and a Saiyan(technically.) In order to know for sure that SSJ would alter your hair while fused, you'd have to have Goku or Vegeta, while already Super Saiyan, fuse with somebody who is not a super saiyan--and for the best results, it would have to be with someone who was not a saiyan themselves--and the non saiyan would have to be dominant in the fusion,since Future Zamasu is clearly dominant in Merged Zamasu.

Spoiler: New Episode

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Goku learned how to resurrect him self and the writers gave Hit a retcon to skipping time which gives him Obito Uchiha's Kamui.

But the last episode not even a week ago showed Hit being invincibly solid instead of intangible.
And speaking of the last episode. If ended with a cliff hanger of someone being killed. So with bad writing, sloppy pointless cliff hangers, and the 18th chapter's background keeps vanishing. I think I know what Tite is doing in his free time.

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1: Hit's abillity was called "time skip" from the first time it was used, so this probably isn't a retcon.

2: Goku said that he couldn't hit Hit at the end of the last episode despite his attacks clearly connecting, so yeah...

[Delicious Taffy]

Sometimes, I wish Dragon Ball fans would stop arguing over every little detail and just accept that the franchise does what it wants, when it wants, logic be damned. Rules get re-written, new information was suddenly always there if they'd just asked the right person, and there's a whole lot of "Look what I can do now!" getting thrown all over by everyone. That said, I never can seem to stop myself from reading the arguments and getting a chuckle.

And just to cover my ass before anyone says anything, I really do love the Dragon Ball franchise. I've got the shirts, I've got the video games, hell, I've even been collecting a set of Dragon Balls for myself. I bring this up because there's a tendency in the fandom to jump down someone's throat if it even looks like they might be a little critical of the show and react like they're deliberately riling up fans of a show they don't even like in the first place.

All of that aside, Super Saiyan 4 Blue x10 Kaioken Gogito is real-life canon, and you can't tell me otherwise.

[Mato]

The flashback shows Elder Kai as being Purple back when he was just Supreme Kai,and the witch he fused with was flesh colored.

And if you look, both their hair colors are shades of dark blue / purple and we're not shown the fused form until fifteen ki generations later when he has a mustache.

and would thus be dominant in the fusion.

If there were true then Black would have been dominate in the fusion with Zamasu.

He doesn't have Saiyan Ki, he has The Ki of a Supreme Kai of Universe 10. So, even if he's using the mechanics of SSJ, he's still using supreme Kai Ki, not super saiyan ki.

According to Twitter, Todd Blankenship made the same mistaken you're making now. Except when I reiterated it you to I made a point of expressly mentioning that Toriyama's note says Black has both the normal SSj form and SSR. In other words, he is using "saiyen ki" because according to the creator Black can enter the pure SSj form.

Sometimes, I wish Dragon Ball fans would stop arguing over every little detail and just accept that the franchise does what it wants, when it wants, logic be damned.

Oh I did. And I dinged the arc's writing for it.

Currently the "super fans" are using me to work out a theory of explanation by them half reading my posts and citing things that don't help them because eventually they'll blindly come up with something that sounds plausible so they can see like uber fans on another forum by explaining it to that community.

All of that aside, Super Saiyan 4 Blue x10 Kaioken Gogito is real-life canon, and you can't tell me otherwise.

Subverted!

In episode 58 of GT, Goku receives a power share from Trunks, Gohan, and Goten. Which means that taken as a new entity (which we have proof, super buu & black), Gogeta is takes the role of sixth Saiyan that receives the power of five others, completing the ritual for the true Super Saiyen God transformation and canonical displays the real SSGSSj4 transformation on screen back when all we knew about the SSG was a passive mention in DB Minus.

[Rater202]

back when all we knew about the SSG was a passive mention in DB Minus.

Dragon Ball Minus was first published on April 4, 2014. Super Saiyan God was both introduced and explained in full in Battle of Gods, which premiered on March 30, 2013, over a year before DB minus.

[Mato]

Oh yeah, looked at the wrong release date. BoG took a year to hit the US, where has the time flown off to?

[Lord Raziere]

Sometimes, I wish Dragon Ball fans would stop arguing over every little detail and just accept that the franchise does what it wants, when it wants, logic be damned. Rules get re-written, new information was suddenly always there if they'd just asked the right person, and there's a whole lot of "Look what I can do now!" getting thrown all over by everyone. That said, I never can seem to stop myself from reading the arguments and getting a chuckle.

And just to cover my ass before anyone says anything, I really do love the Dragon Ball franchise. I've got the shirts, I've got the video games, hell, I've even been collecting a set of Dragon Balls for myself. I bring this up because there's a tendency in the fandom to jump down someone's throat if it even looks like they might be a little critical of the show and react like they're deliberately riling up fans of a show they don't even like in the first place.

Trust me man, I understand that completely. I love Dragon Ball, and not because it has consistent rules or how logical it is. I love it, because there always feels as if there is more to the world than what we are seeing. Like, if you watched all of DBZ, you'd never be able to predict that Magetta or Botamo would ever be a thing, if you watch Cell and Freeza arcs you'd never be able to predict that Majin Buu would be a thing, if you watched all of Dragon Ball you'd never be able to predict that Raditz and Goku being an alien would be a thing. and I like that, because it expands things, it introduces new stuff and shows that its more varied than I initially gave it credit, and that while the show is all about martial arts fights, you can always see there is more to the world in Dragon Ball than the fights, there is Gohan who has other things on his mind that are just as or more important, there is Bulma who consistently has solved problems since the early days without ever once throwing a punch, and whole lots of people who go about their lives not even KNOWING that it all could end because a couple of crazy strong martial artists punched something a little too hard.

and of course, new abilities are always just one implied retroactive training arc away. but thats a common trope in wuxia that is practically tradition. Beats tedious training arcs where we do nothing but watch the protagonist do boring stuff and instead gets right to the good part.

[Rater202]

Oh yeah, looked at the wrong release date. BoG took a year to hit the US, where has the time flown off to?

To be fair, DB Minus was an epilogue for Jaco The Galatic Patrolman, and Jaco the Galactic Patrolman was meant to be published around the same time as Battle of Gods... but then Toriyama made himself sick trying to churn the whole thing out rapid fire like he used to when he was young, so it's possible that Dragon Ball Minus would have come first if Jaco had been published in time.

Speaking of which... is anyone else kind of disappointed that they don't really integrate Jaco into the story as well as they could? I mean, the flashbacks help, but to someone who never read Jaco the Galactic Patrolman he kinda sorta comes out of nowhere.

I mean, there was plenty of room in the Resurrection F arc for this. It could have gone there, just a quick recap episode, but no.

[Anteros]

He's annoying, so I'm glad he doesn't get much screen time. DragonBall doesn't really need a third power ranger wanna be.

[The Troubadour]

Speaking of which... is anyone else kind of disappointed that they don't really integrate Jaco into the story as well as they could?

Kind of, but I'm much more disappointed that we're still not getting more Piccolo, Gohan and all the human Z Fighters.

[Rater202]

Kind of, but I'm much more disappointed that we're still not getting more Piccolo, Gohan and all the human Z Fighters.

Well...

Spoiler: You might be happy then

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[Lord Raziere]

Y'know, the scariest thing about Zeno is that he has the Popo eyes....and given that he is probably the closet we'll ever see to a canon abridged Popo....it makes one wonder if they aren't related somehow.

Or.....perhaps....

Spoiler: Crazy Theory Involving Zeno, TFS and Mr. Popo, Do Not Read If You Value Your Sanity

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Ok, so its TFS canon that in Abridged Verse, Dumplin eventually becomes Abridged Mr. Popo.

But! Canon Zeno exhibits many traits that one could link to Abridged Mr. Popo:
-Likes being on top of the pecking order
-is a scary abomination of nature that no one knows the origin of.
-can destroy entire universes without a sweat
-makes casual threats without even raising his voice
-despite all his power, mostly uses it to sit around and have his own fun

Given their similar eyes, my theory is that Dumplin becoming Mr. Popo was like a super form transformation- it changed his form, making him become more powerful, but like a saiyan unleashing their rage, it unleashed his hidden evil and like an advanced enough saiyan he forgot how to turn it off so he stays evil forever.

But like super forms, its not his FINAL form. Somehow as Mr. Popo he becomes even stronger until he transforms again, goes back in time and creates all of reality appearing as Zeno and renaming himself thus. his Zeno form is like the Super Saiyan Blue transformation- it better controls his ki and thus his inner evil, thus making him nicer and more controlled over himself but still a scary abomination that is perfectly willing and able to wipe out universes.

Thus, Zeno is the final form of Dumplin and TFS's Abridged Mr. Popo.

[Anteros]

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You'd think if the tournament was going to be that serious they would recruit F-Trunks or the kids over someone like Roshi. Even Yamcha is stronger than him.

[Rater202]

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You'd think if the tournament was going to be that serious they would recruit F-Trunks or the kids over someone like Roshi. Even Yamcha is stronger than him.

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From what I've put together from the teasers, the tournament is gonna be less one on one and more team battles, so Roshi, being a centuries old immortal sage, becomes much more valuable for his centuries of experience and mystic knowledge. He's far from the most powerful, but he's easily the most skilled.

I could be wrong though.

Regardless: Future Trunks went to that alternate version of his Future that Whis created by raping Time for Zamasu never happened and I doubt the Gods would appreciate someone breaking the time travel rules in order to gain a slight advantage.

The kids are kids. They do not take fighting seriously, and regardless they have to fuse to be anywhere near their parant's current power levels.

Yamcha has retired from fighting and has been training with ki only to use it to win at baseball.

[Dragonus45]

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You'd think if the tournament was going to be that serious they would recruit F-Trunks or the kids over someone like Roshi. Even Yamcha is stronger than him.

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You should consider that despite his age and infirmity he STILL qualifies as one of the only people strong enough to come along for the big brawl in RoF, and has centuries of skill to back it up. Also as much as I love Future Trunks to death the less we see of him the easier it will be for me to pretend that he is happily living in the universe he worked so hard to save and not.... the other thing.

[Anteros]

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To be fair, it didn't make a lot of sense to bring him in RoF either. The guy has a power level of 100. Even Chi Chi is stronger than him. I just don't see what he brings to the table on a team with people literally trillions of times more powerful than him.

That said, due to anime tropes and Dragonball's love of fan-service I'm sure he'll be useful somehow.

[Rater202]

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To be fair, it didn't make a lot of sense to bring him in RoF either. The guy has a power level of 100. Even Chi Chi is stronger than him. I just don't see what he brings to the table on a team with people literally trillions of times more powerful than him.

That said, due to anime tropes and Dragonball's love of fan-service I'm sure he'll be useful somehow.

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Mystical knowledge that the other guys don't have? Like the good four or five techniques of his that he never tought any of his students? Like Sleepy Boy? Or the Turtle School Ultimate Technique that turns your ki into lightning and shocks the crap out of the other guy? I could see those techniques being somewhat useful.

I mean, Universe 6 had two guys who weren't that strong but had freaky tricks that made fighting them difficult, could be that this time Goku's decided to try the same.

There's also the possibility that he's been training himself in secret to get back into shape--hell, he's technically immortal so he could go into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for a month and come out no worse for wear.

[The Troubadour]

Well...

Spoiler: You might be happy then

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Oh, I really am! I just hope they're actually plot-relevant when the time comes.

[Lord Raziere]

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@ Anteros: Hahahaha, power levels. Those stopped really being that much of a thing back in Cell Saga. Its just that now, Super is throwing out any assumption that amount of ki equates to actual power at all. Somehow Jaco and Roshi fought evenly with other Z-Warriors. Somehow Future Trunks did what Goku ,Vegeta then Vegitto all in SS Blue could not.

Yet somehow, Goku still overpowers Hits' stuff every time they fight.

Yet somehow Golden Freeza still insta-pwns Gohan and Piccolo.

Yet Trunks and Goten are still useless.

Yet somehow Yamcha was able to survive a storm around two angry Gods to win a baseball game.

Really, power level in Dragonball Super isn't about numbers. Its about five tiers:

Zeno is strongest

Then Angels

Then Gods of Destruction

Then Divine Mortals level of power (SS Blue Goku and Vegeta, anyone with blue divine energy like Future Trunks, Golden Freeza, Hit, SS Rose Black) Technically Golden Freeza nor Hit ever demonstrate the ability to wield divine energy though. Freeza is just this freak of nature whose Golden form is just powerful enough to take on a god without being one, while Hits techniques are outside of the box as far as Dragon Ball techniques go and are on a certain level completely hax.

Everyone else. Majin Buu, Cell, Raditz, etc. are now all in the same nebulous tier of power, which is "Not A God."

But then again, there is a certain factor to consider: the foes being faced. in DBZ, Freeza was insanely more powerful, still alive after a lot of dismemberment, and could breathe in space. Cell had hax regeneration + Freeza toughness + Zenkai boosts. Buu could also regenerate from nearly anything. In short, most of the big foes they were facing in DBZ had all in some way super-optimized for durability. Thats why fights dragged on for so long and you needed someone really powerful to get rid of them. In DB Super, we are for the most part, not facing foes capable of such durability anymore. Thus when a hero gets a killing blow- its a killing blow. No way to back out with regeneration or prolong the fight so somebody else stronger has to defeat them.

We see this similarly with Goku- despite his incredible power, he gets taken out by a single laser shot from this side characters ring. Despite all of ones OFFENSIVE power, it doesn't matter if your durability is so low that a minion can take you out. Zamasu had complete invincibility for a time, but miscalculated and ended up getting cut in half for it when he lost it- without it, he is just a guy who dies when his vital organs get slashed just like anyone else,

So, it doesn't matter if your offensive power is "I can destroy the galaxy" if your defensive power limit is "I can destroy a city".

Simply, we're so used to DBZ villains being able to come back from anything that guys who can possibly go down from an attack that ISN'T the strongest one possible is kind of weird. The Gods may be stronger than Buu or Cell, but their bodies pretty much work normal, if very hardened by ki. Once that hardening is pierced.....they dead.

Dragon Ball is a strange universe where the fighters offensive potential WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY outstrips their defensive potential. With notable exceptions being very dangerous, near unstoppable beings

[Mato]

tl;dr: Dragonball is about as balanced as a D&D glass cannon wizard.
All the BBEGs had contingency[true resurrection] so Goku just learned how to hit them more times per turn.
And in Super everyone realized contingency had a 6th level spell cap so Goku haxxed a self-raise and is now the BBEG to all the new characters you love like Hit or Cabba.

[The Troubadour]

Nah, "DB" characters aren't nearly as fragile. Remember back in Goku's fight with Piccolo at the World Tournament how Roshi specifically noted how his stamina was now his greatest ability? Plus, think of just how much damage Goku endured when fighting Freeza, and how he withstood Golden Freeza's attacks even when the latter's power was still at its peak.
It's actually uncommon for stronger characters to be seriously hurt by attacks from weaker characters, unless said attack has some special property (like Piccolo's Makkankousapo or Krillin's Kienzan). I think what explains Goku being felled by Sorbet's laser beam is that he was taken by surprise and thus, wasn't really using his ki (remember how Vegeta explicitly had to lower his power level to the point where Krillin could hurt him, back in Namek?).

[Rater202]

If you're willing to take Dragon Ball Heroes as an official source, we've got a name and an explanation for Trunk's Unique Super Saiyan form.

According to the Dragon Ball Heroes website, it's name is Super Saiyan Ikari/Rage and is the result of Trunk's rage hitting a breaking point. So...

Some people are speculating that Gohan might be able to use the form, since he is also a Saiyan Human Hybrid who gains exceptional amounts of power due to his rage.

But this all depends on whether Heroes is a reliable source.

[Mato]

and how he withstood Golden Freeza's attacks even when the latter's power was still at its peak.

Greater mirror image, since when were you under the impression of them actually hitting each other?

If you're willing to take Dragon Ball Heroes as an official source, we've got a name and an explanation for Trunk's Unique Super Saiyan form.

That almost makes it worse.

The underlying mechanic is being ticked off is a running them of SSj so now we're to believe SSj2 Vegeta's rage against Beerus slapping Bulma wasn't enough to go SSjR even through it multiplied his power by at least thirty fold? They should have just said Might Guy showed him how to unlock the blue sweat gate given the recent plagiarization of Naruto.

[Rater202]

That almost makes it worse.

Well, again, it's heroes.

It could well be because Vegeta's base form wasn't strong enough--you need to have a base power of so much before you could unlock Super Saiyan,otherwise Goku would have done it when King Piccolo's kid killed Krillin. Future Trunks after everything he went through training with Supreme Kai and getting absolutly destroyed by Black(zenkai boosts), then training with God level vegeta would be stronger in his baseform than Vegeta was when Beerus slapped Bulma.

Also, Vegeta's eyes did turn solid white for a bit when Beerus did it in the anime, just like Trunks' did when he first entered his new form

[Delicious Taffy]

Subverted!

In episode 58 of GT, Goku receives a power share from Trunks, Gohan, and Goten. Which means that taken as a new entity (which we have proof, super buu & black), Gogeta is takes the role of sixth Saiyan that receives the power of five others, completing the ritual for the true Super Saiyen God transformation and canonical displays the real SSGSSj4 transformation on screen back when all we knew about the SSG was a passive mention in DB Minus.

That's not even the same thing as what I said.

Super Saiyan 4 Blue x10 Kaioken Gogito would be the result of Gogeta and Vegito fusing by some means, after going Super Saiyan 4, augmenting that with Super Saiyan Blue, and then using a x10 Kaioken. You're talking about just Gogeta being a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 4 due to somehow qualifying for the God ritual because Goku got a boost and then fused with Vegeta. There's a difference.

SSB4x10 Gogito is 100% canon, if you'd just read the manga.

[Mato]

SSB4x10 Gogito is 100% canon, if you'd just read the manga.

Sorry but there isn't a decent reliable site for Super and I'm pretty much stuck googling reddit for each individual chapter. As far as I know #20 isn't even released so Vegito hasn't even had a manga appearance yet.

But it doesn't really change much. Kaio Ken works with SSj in English filler and we know the ki control it takes just to handle godly ki and SSj makes it easier. SSG SSj4 Gogita can do it too :p
Plus they can unlock SSGSSj4SS2.5 Legendary G Mode!

Edit - Speaking of new. TFS's Broly is up and they turned him into a wimp whiny teen, there is probably a metajoke there given their disdain for the character and the fanbase pretty much yelling for him to be done asap.

[Lord Raziere]

Edit - Speaking of new. TFS's Broly is up and they turned him into a wimp whiny teen, there is probably a metajoke there given their disdain for the character and the fanbase pretty much yelling for him to be done asap.

Whiny? No. I've seen it and my interpretation is more that TFS Broly is like one of those 'special' kids. He isn't angsty or anything, he just seems really childish and passive and not thinking in a neurotypical mindspace. In fact, he is actually friends with Goku before Vegeta messes everything up. like, TFS Broly might not actually link Kakarot to Goku at all. I think "Kakarot" might just be a word to him that reminds him of when he got stabbed by King Vegeta and nearly got destroyed by Freeza. He just associates it with bad times rather than specifically hating Goku, so he melts down.

That and TFS Broly seems to have no memory of destroying south galaxy. He acts as if who destroyed South Galaxy is a mystery to him, so its possible that he has no memory of how terrifying he is when he transforms. A jekyll and hyde scenario. Which TFS did justice to Broly by playing Beerus's Madness when he transformed. The theme of a character they actually like for him. Thats respect.

Me, I'm predicting they will do something similar to what they did for World's Strongest and somehow change the ending entirely. Because all of TFS mostly dislike him for how little his backstory makes sense and how little his character goes from there. That and have you ever noticed how much Trunks SS 3rd Grade form is similar to Broly's Legendary SS form? perhaps the Princess Trunks bit is foreshadowing Trunks somehow solving things in a way we don't expect?

[The Troubadour]

Greater mirror image, since when were you under the impression of them actually hitting each other?

Listen, I read "Dragon Ball" back when Zanzoken was still a thing. I knew Zanzoken. Zanzoken was a favourite technique of mine.* And that, my friend, was no Zanzoken. :-)

* Not really, but I wanted to stick to the theme.

[Mato]

So the clap in front of Hit's face bothered me until this morning I realized that was a high school assassination reference. I presume it's supposed to show that Goku studied assassination techniques and Hit is so awesome he won't leave him self open to unexpected diversions.

[The Troubadour]

They should have just said Might Guy showed him how to unlock the blue sweat gate given the recent plagiarization of Naruto.

Oh, yeah, forgot to comment on this: seriously? Becoming intangible by actually phasing to other dimensions has been a staple of American super-hero comics and Japanese anime/manga for decades.

[Mato]

Oh, yeah, forgot to comment on this: seriously? Becoming intangible by actually phasing to other dimensions has been a staple of American super-hero comics and Japanese anime/manga for decades.

Most, if not all, of the famous Marvel/DC characters explain their intangibility using density. Like Vison/Apocalypse/Green Martian/Silver Surfer can control their mass/size allowing them to pass through solid matter like Kitty Pryde can. And the Flash and all of his incarnations and villains and close to matchs can do this by vibrating fast enough, teleporting to the speedforce dimension is something else entirely. If you dig there are some other forms of intangibility. Like Cloak doesn't shift his body back and forth, his body is a portal. Dr Fate/Strange and others like Dracula and such use magic or take on astral forms. And there are teleporters that can teleport before getting hit and portal controllers open a hole to punch of slip through. But I'm not sure if there is a single Marvel/DC character that can instantly shuffle his true body into a pocket dimension while leaving his likeness behind and he has to reemerge exactly where he left his visual clone at.

On the Japanese side, I really don't know. Naruto was the first time I seen it explained as using a pocket dimension and Hit is #2. The Superpowered wiki specifically calls it Dimension Shifting and it only cites Naruto, Rosario, & Space Dandy. DC has three citations and one of them is a full reality warper, the other two are like Marvel's film universe of Dr Strange in that they draw their powers from the 2nd & 4th dimensions. Also the list includes (Paper) Mario so that's cool.