Dragon Ball Super

[The Troubadour]

Well, since at least the introduction of the Speed Force way back in Mark Waid's "Flash" run, all Flashes are actually vibrating through dimensions when they become intangible; mind, this might have been retconned since then. DC Comics also has Johnny Sorrow, the post-Crisis (possibly post-Zero Hour?) version of Phantom Girl and the Shadow Thief as characters who explicitly become intangible due to space-warping abilities, while Marvel has Death-Stalker, and I think the Spot deserves an honourable mention in that his power is basically the reverse of how Obito's powers work (instead of temporarily shifting parts of his body to another dimension, he shifts his attacker's parts which connect with him to said dimension). As for anime/manga, Ryoko and Kagato (from "Tenchi Muyo") become intangible by virtue of accessing different, overlapping dimensions, an ability which also shows up in some of the manga characters. Honestly, I'd also count characters like DC Comics' Shade and Obsidian, or Marvel's Asylum, at least as "close enough!", since while their bodies physically change into other substances (shadows, to be specific), they do so by dimensional shenanigans.

[Frozen_Feet]

As far as arguing Super is ripping off Naruto, I think the strongest argument one can make for that is "Naruto is another popular contemporary shonen series, making it likely the creators knew of and were thinking of it". As opposed to all those other things. I don't think we have any evidence that, but if true, it would mean things have come a full circle. Naruto started by ripping off Dragon Ball, after all.

In general, though, all sorts and forms of superpowers have been invented and reinvented so many times, that it's hard to say who originally came up with what.

[Anteros]

Hmm. This episode of abridged was a little better than the last few. They've been slipping a bit lately from completely hilarious to simply entertaining. Glad to see we're on an upswing again.

[Mato]

As far as arguing Super is ripping off Naruto, I think the strongest argument one can make for that is "Naruto is another popular contemporary shonen series, making it likely the creators knew of and were thinking of it".

That's probably the case since they had a Assassination Classroom reference.

@Anteros have you seen TFS's Super clips yet?

[Anteros]

That's probably the case since they had a Assassination Classroom reference.

@Anteros have you seen TFS's Super clips yet?

Yeah. Most of them are decent. The Trunks one was lazy though.

[Dragonus45]

So, am I the only person who figured tat Trunk's pseudo blue form was the result of the same effect that lead him to getting the spirit bomb sword? Something like him channeling the energy of everyone on earth to be a super human god? I think he was even giving a speech about humanity when it happened too.

[Anteros]

My assumption is that it's just rage + a certain power threshold = new transformation. Just like SSJ1 or SSJ2.

I have another theory that he could have achieved god ki from his training with Vegeta. Since god ki slims you down, he's combining it with his old bulky form powerup, which would explain why he gets huge and then slims back down when he transforms.

I can't rule your theory out either, but the spirit bomb was a result of everyone actively willing him their energy, while he seems to be able to use the other form at will. Plus the civilians don't glow when he uses it.

[Dragonus45]

My assumption is that it's just rage + a certain power threshold = new transformation. Just like SSJ1 or SSJ2.

I have another theory that he could have achieved god ki from his training with Vegeta. Since god ki slims you down, he's combining it with his old bulky form powerup, which would explain why he gets huge and then slims back down when he transforms.

I can't rule your theory out either, but the spirit bomb was a result of everyone actively willing him their energy, while he seems to be able to use the other form at will. Plus the civilians don't glow when he uses it.

Well all really need to move forward into the Super Cyan stuff is to have some divine ki, and to explain my theory better since I had another thought. What if Trunks had become the Kami of earth?

[Lord Raziere]

Well all really need to move forward into the Super Cyan stuff is to have some divine ki, and to explain my theory better since I had another thought. What if Trunks had become the Kami of earth?

Its probably just the half-saiyan equivalent of SS Blue or something that is almost SS Blue. Kami requires actual promotion to the job, since the position of Kami is a part of the godly hierarchy thats based on Chinese mythology. Which can't happen in Trunks timeline, cause Kami and Piccolo are dead. I think Dende got the position because Piccolo fused with Kami and therefore might've counted AS Kami until Dende got there.

[Xihirli]

What if Trunks had become the Kami of earth?

If that granted divine ki Piccolo would have learned to use it after fusion with kami and been the strongest character by a wide margin up until Beerus and Whis are introduced.

[Lord Raziere]

If that granted divine ki Piccolo would have learned to use it after fusion with kami and been the strongest character by a wide margin up until Beerus and Whis are introduced.

Actually Dende, North Kai and Kibitoshin could all sense Beerus's energy meaning they have divine ki, and they are all weaker than Goku back in Buu Saga, so........nope. Divine Ki is just another flavor of energy. the SS God/SS Blue transformations just throw divinity as a side power along a massive bonus from "less than 10% of Beerus's energy" to "strong as 0.75 Beeruses".

[Mato]

Actually Dende, North Kai and Kibitoshin could all sense Beerus's energy meaning they have divine ki

That's probably not that accurate. In Super's 7th episode it's expressly a ki Dende has not sensing before, ie he and Piccolo do not obtain godly ki simply because they are/were Kami, only the ability to sense it which through Piccolo we can see only lasts as long as you retain the title of Kami.

What you are doing is overlapping Goku into their positions. But Goku is a master mimic able to replicate entire techniques just by seeing them once, proven to learn and master techniques better than his century old peers, and is able to discern a techniques traits and weaknesses fairly fast. Plus he went SSG he didn't just "sense" godly ki, he was actively filling his body with it and channeling it into his attacks. Dende might theoretically be able to use godly ki some day and his mastery of it might allow him to keep it even if the title is passed, but right now he has none and no ability to use it.

[Anteros]

a massive bonus from "less than 10% of Beerus's energy" to "strong as 0.75 Beeruses".

This got ret-conned. In the anime they are nowhere near Beerus' power despite what was said in the movie.

[Lord Raziere]

This got ret-conned. In the anime they are nowhere near Beerus' power despite what was said in the movie.

They didn't get near his power level either movie or anime, he beat them both times, what're you talking about?

[The Troubadour]

That's probably not that accurate. In Super's 7th episode it's expressly a ki Dende has not sensing before, ie he and Piccolo do not obtain godly ki simply because they are/were Kami, only the ability to sense it which through Piccolo we can see only lasts as long as you retain the title of Kami.

Not at all. Back in the Buu Saga, Piccolo could discern the Kaioshin's true nature. He's also the one who explains to Goku (at least in the movie version of "Battle of the Gods") that while receiving energy from Gohan, Goten, Vegeta and Trunks greatly increased his power level, he still didn't have the ki of a god and thus, couldn't be the Super Saiyan God.

[Kato]

So... I'll not meddle with the technicalities of trunk's transformation or any power scale discussion (because I feel since Z those are entirely pointless)

But... Am I the only one disappointed with the last episode? I know I'm late but... That fight might have looked nice in a few scenes and in the end a few jokes were okay but overall? Pretty bad second part. The add-ons to Hit's power were stupid and because there was no decent way around it Goku solves it by just powering up a lot? Wow, that's lazy... Though not as bad as Goku reviving himself with a ki blast? I mean, death is cheap anyway but that cheap?
I guess Goku ordering the hit on himself was predictable but fine. Even if he seemed a bit anxious for that last week.

[Anteros]

They didn't get near his power level either movie or anime, he beat them both times, what're you talking about?

You said god ki made Goku as powerful as 0.75 Beerus. That was stated to be true in the movie, but was ret-conned by the anime. I am aware Beerus won both fights.

So... I'll not meddle with the technicalities of trunk's transformation or any power scale discussion (because I feel since Z those are entirely pointless)

But... Am I the only one disappointed with the last episode? I know I'm late but... That fight might have looked nice in a few scenes and in the end a few jokes were okay but overall? Pretty bad second part. The add-ons to Hit's power were stupid and because there was no decent way around it Goku solves it by just powering up a lot? Wow, that's lazy... Though not as bad as Goku reviving himself with a ki blast? I mean, death is cheap anyway but that cheap?
I guess Goku ordering the hit on himself was predictable but fine. Even if he seemed a bit anxious for that last week.

No, it was pretty bad. It's filler though. All of the filler episodes except the baseball one have been less than stellar.

[Rater202]

I'm still holding out hope that we'll eventually get a post Z timeskip with an arc focusing on Pan, since Super Pan is a badass as even as a baby and she could make up for her wasted potential in the GT continuity.

Anybody agree with me?

[Mato]

He's also the one who explains to Goku (at least in the movie version of "Battle of the Gods") that while receiving energy from Gohan, Goten, Vegeta and Trunks greatly increased his power level, he still didn't have the ki of a god and thus, couldn't be the Super Saiyan God.

Actually after hte failed attempt all he says is it didn't work and Goku didn't have the power of a saiyen god. Let's cut into chapter 4, page 4, of the manga for a second. Gohan exclaims he can't sense Goku's ki and all Piccolo says is that's proof Goku has become a god because mortals can't sense gods and Whis adds to that saying Piccolo is well informed.

Piccolo displays knowledge of a negative test that can be performed, if he can sense Goku's energy than Goku is still using mortal ki, and not that he can sense godly ki.

Not at all. Back in the Buu Saga, Piccolo could discern the Kaioshin's true nature.

And that's an English Dub Anime only thing that I can't even confirm if it's in the original. In the Manga, #440, Piccolo has trouble bringing him self to fight Shin and wonders what Shin is when Shin reads his mind and answers him. Piccolo is instantly startled by Shin's ability to read his mind and backs down as Shin thinks to him self that as former Kami Piccolo is starting to see who he really is.

The key difference here is the Manga never says Piccolo could discern his Shin's godly ki and Piccolo doesn't walk away with the confirmation that Shin is a god because of it, but as the mind-reading deity states; Piccolo is assembling the facts together for a theory on who Shin could be.

But some credit is due I suppose, the Anime either set the pre-concepts of godly ki they would later use or maybe it took notes from Toriyama who had recently created the idea. Either way, Piccolo sensing godly ki is ambiguous in Super, denied in the manga, and confirmed in the anime. So pick your canon I suppose.

I'm still holding out hope that we'll eventually get a post Z timeskip with an arc focusing on Pan, since Super Pan is a badass as even as a baby and she could make up for her wasted potential in the GT continuity.
Anybody agree with me?

I'm sure there is an entire community out there that wants to see a topless SSj4 Pan... And you know what sign me up. I have questions.

Edit - TFS's Hellsing is up.

[The Troubadour]

And that's an English Dub Anime only thing that I can't even confirm if it's in the original.

I wouldn't know, I've never watched the English dub. :-) I can't tell you if Piccolo figuring out that Kaioshin is some sort of god is present in the original, but I know it's there in the Brazilian anime dub, the Brazilian manga translation, and the American manga translation. You can see the latter here:

http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/3...ttl=1483455600

http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/3...ttl=1483455600

http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/3...ttl=1483455600

[Mato]

Can you back up exactly one page on those citations?

[The Troubadour]

What do you mean? This page: http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/3...ttl=1483473600 ?

[Mato]

I guess it was two pages but yeah. They have a randomized token so you can't just change the URL.

Anyway, it looks like the context remains the same. But seeing translation from the fan-wrote "starting to see" to the official Viz alteration of "have sensed" when you're focused on whether or not Piccolo can sense godly ki it sounds like total confirmation. But if you're skeptical of the matter like I am, you think the proper wording to support the concept would be that Piccolo sensed what Shin is, a god because he's using godly ki, instead to who Shin is. Also in Viz's version Shin's statement incorrect. Piccolo asks if Shin is the Grand Kai and Shin is not, so as a matter of fact Piccolo did not sense who Shin was and Shin's statement that he did is wrong. I know is sounds a little argumentative but it's there.

I'm going to go with Toriyama was still working out the concept of godly ki and had a vague idea of the role of Earth's kami as he was extending on things. Remember the Buu saga didn't just add the Surpreme Kais, but multiple universes, parallel demons, ancient eldritch horrors and a history expending the last twenty five thousand years. And the anime also pulled double duty and introduced Toriyama's Grand Kai and the other three quadrant Kais and their fighters for the out world tournament. The weeks it took for the franchise to go from paper to screen gave him enough time to trim the details some.

[The Troubadour]

[...] you think the proper wording to support the concept would be that Piccolo sensed what Shin is, a god because he's using godly ki, instead to who Shin is.

Well, Viz's translation aside, that's actually what I am arguing for: that Piccolo has enough discernment to sense godly ki.
Since we're on the subject of translations, do you know of any good fan translation of "DBZ"? Viz's translation seems fine compared to what I remember of the Brazilian manga translation, but I'm always curious about other versions.

[Mato]

but I'm always curious about other versions.

You know I have no real idea. Mostly I just read w/e web site hosts it, fans often do a good job since individual words are normally meaningless. I personally like the ones that will note a Japanse idiom and explain it so you understand it rather than simply attempting to localize it since I come out of it with a little more understanding of their culture. But some of those fan sites also seems have occasional dislike over how Viz translated things.

When it comes to arguing translations for DBZ, Kanzenshuu is a pretty good place to try site searching unless you want to learn Japanese.

Edit, for example.

In the manga Vegeta's line was "We have no idea what's he's capable of but we'll soon find out". Not that he couldn't sense him.
Supreme Kai's line after the fight was " He used to be this planets God, he must have sensed who I am".

That's not what it was said.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.1
Context: after Piccolo and Kaioshin's match
Kaioshin: “…I see. He used to be this planet’s god…Perhaps he’s somehow started to realize who I am…”

idk accuracy, but I personally like this discussion better which after chiming in thoughts they start discussing gaps in power and why Piccolo would have quit.

[Anteros]

So info about the coming episodes is out. Looks like we're getting filler for another month or so.

[JadedDM]

Wait, didn't they already make a Great Saiyaman movie? And didn't Gohan get roped into being the stuntman in that one, too? Is TOEI running out of ideas? Well, I guess the weird alien bit is new.

[Akisa]

What I don't get about the last episode is that they made Great Saiyaman movie, and second in the tournament portion of Boo saga Gohan was shown to be the great Saiyaman.

[Akisa]

Wait, didn't they already make a Great Saiyaman movie? And didn't Gohan get roped into being the stuntman in that one, too? Is TOEI running out of ideas? Well, I guess the weird alien bit is new.

Nope it's baby reskin and without a personality.

[Mato]

Nope it's baby reskin and without a personality.

Well a bunch of people said they wanted GT to be redone.

But did you really think Super, which has less than half the ratings of GT and just wrapped up one of the worst arcs in it's series after trying to introduce a bunch of purposely wracky gimmick fighters, could actually pull it off?

I'm willing to bet the ideas in your head are probably better than what Toei will put out.