Dragon Ball Super

[Devonix]

Here's hoping that Krillin and the others will be able to access God Ki and be put on even footing with Goku or at least close enough. I for one would have no problem with a huge jump in power for the rest of the cast. There's really nothing stopping the writers from doing it.

[Anteros]

Here's hoping that Krillin and the others will be able to access God Ki and be put on even footing with Goku or at least close enough. I for one would have no problem with a huge jump in power for the rest of the cast. There's really nothing stopping the writers from doing it.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, and it undercuts everything Goku and Vegeta have achieved. I can see one or two characters making the jump to usefulness, but giving everyone a powerup is too much.

[The Troubadour]

I think the most we'll see is Piccolo, Tien and Krillin fighting someone close to their own power level instead of them getting closer to the Saiyans.

[Anteros]

I think the most we'll see is Piccolo, Tien and Krillin fighting someone close to their own power level instead of them getting closer to the Saiyans.

That's about what I expect as well. Plus, let's be honest. Goku and Vegeta are both going to do something dumb and get taken out at some point, and it will be up to someone like Krillin or Gohan to save the day. It's practically a Dragonball tradition.

[Devonix]

It doesn't make a lot of sense, and it undercuts everything Goku and Vegeta have achieved. I can see one or two characters making the jump to usefulness, but giving everyone a powerup is too much.

Well since God Ki is a completely separate scale that had little to do with how strong Goku and Vegeta were before posessing it. I don't see a reason why giving the other characters acess to it and training with it, would be too much. It would simply level the playing field a bit more. And it doesn't make any less sense than anything else that happens in Dragon Ball.

[Anteros]

It doesn't make sense narratively. I'm sure you can justify it in universe if you want.

I don't really get the DragonBall fandom's obsession with power levels though. A character doesn't have to be the strongest to be good.

[Devonix]

It doesn't make sense narratively. I'm sure you can justify it in universe if you want.

I don't really get the DragonBall fandom's obsession with power levels though. A character doesn't have to be the strongest to be good.

My obsession isn't with power levels. I flat out hate that nonsense. And it's the reason why characters keep getting left behind. What I am tired of is characters becoming irrelevant in the show because of the huge leaps in power and I want something to level the playing field. Super does a far better job of it than Z by having a lot more character focused episodes rather than fighting all the time. But I would still enjoy seeing the other characters actually get involved and be relevant when the fighting does happen, rather than waiting for one of the Sayians to do everything.

[Anteros]

My obsession isn't with power levels. I flat out hate that nonsense. And it's the reason why characters keep getting left behind. What I am tired of is characters becoming irrelevant in the show because of the huge leaps in power and I want something to level the playing field. Super does a far better job of it than Z by having a lot more character focused episodes rather than fighting all the time. But I would still enjoy seeing the other characters actually get involved and be relevant when the fighting does happen, rather than waiting for one of the Sayians to do everything.

Well...everyone fought Freeza, Trunks had his own arc, and the next arc is a tournament with everyone sans Yamcha. I'm happy enough with everyone's contributions but I understand your complaint.

[Devonix]

Well...everyone fought Freeza, Trunks had his own arc, and the next arc is a tournament with everyone sans Yamcha. I'm happy enough with everyone's contributions but I understand your complaint.

Yeah they're doing a much better job I agree. I just see this as a chance to do even better. I'm glad we've moved at least a bit farther away from the days where the entire plot of an arc is wait for goku to either stop being dead, stop being on another planet, stop being sick in bed. Or stop being whatever he was in the Buu arc before he shows up and stops the problem all by himself.

[Rater202]

Apparently this week and Next week's new episodes are going to be a mini-arc with Goku training with Krilling and Master Roshi like in the old days, and since those two are going to be in the tournament this might result in the two of them getting a bit closer to Goku's power level.

I mean, you can call what we've been getting filler, but it's apparently canon to the Anime(excetpting possible the Arale episode) and we've demonstrated that Gohan is durable enough to impress a God of Destruction, and we're about to get a krillin and Roshi training focused mini-arc, so who knows?

Piccolo is established to be training with Gohan, so if Gohan is getting stronger so is Piccolo--and in the last tournament Piccolo only lost because Frost cheated, even though Frost was much stronger than Piccolo, so I think Piccolo is comparable overall to Goku and Getes already.

17 and 18 are the sticking points: They can learn new skills, but their power levels are set in stone IIRC, they can't get stronger or weaker without doing something or other to their infinite energy generators. Bulma could probably do that, but it sort of feels against the spirit of a Tournement to field two cybernetic super soldiers already, and I'm not 100% sure that 17 and 18 would want someone to tinker around with them anymore, so that's questionable.

Buu is Buu. He's already got the power of two Gods plus whatever power he managed to keep after being split from the original Buu.

And Tien has a reputation of just showing up and being strong enough to hurt or at least inconvenience the new Bad Guy a bit,so we don't have to worry about him.

[Fine Dining Set]

Apparently this week and Next week's new episodes are going to be a mini-arc with Goku training with Krilling and Master Roshi like in the old days, and since those two are going to be in the tournament this might result in the two of them getting a bit closer to Goku's power level.

I mean, you can call what we've been getting filler, but it's apparently canon to the Anime(excetpting possible the Arale episode) and we've demonstrated that Gohan is durable enough to impress a God of Destruction, and we're about to get a krillin and Roshi training focused mini-arc, so who knows?

Piccolo is established to be training with Gohan, so if Gohan is getting stronger so is Piccolo--and in the last tournament Piccolo only lost because Frost cheated, even though Frost was much stronger than Piccolo, so I think Piccolo is comparable overall to Goku and Getes already.

17 and 18 are the sticking points: They can learn new skills, but their power levels are set in stone IIRC, they can't get stronger or weaker without doing something or other to their infinite energy generators. Bulma could probably do that, but it sort of feels against the spirit of a Tournement to field two cybernetic super soldiers already, and I'm not 100% sure that 17 and 18 would want someone to tinker around with them anymore, so that's questionable.

Buu is Buu. He's already got the power of two Gods plus whatever power he managed to keep after being split from the original Buu.

And Tien has a reputation of just showing up and being strong enough to hurt or at least inconvenience the new Bad Guy a bit,so we don't have to worry about him.

Upset that Tien won't have a chance at training (Neo-Tri Beam was one of my favorite scenes as a kid), but I'm glad that humans are finally being included in the story again. The whole mortals vs. immortals plot that Super has been going with is, definitely, really interesting, but it's lacking because the faces of mortality are alien monkeys who become infinitely more powerful the more that they lose.

I was under the impression that, during an interview, Toriyama said specifically that 17 & 18 could become stronger if they trained. I'll try and find it.

[Armok]

I'm really interested to see what they'll do with Buu. I'm not a huge fan of how he's essentially been a gag character since Super began, especially since he's easily the most powerful cast member now below Goku and Vegeta.

If they can get him serious about fighting or maybe play off his ability to absorb people and get stronger, it'd be awesome. Hopefully this tournament won't have a written test...

[Rater202]

I was under the impression that, during an interview, Toriyama said specifically that 17 & 18 could become stronger if they trained. I'll try and find it.

He cited 18 learning the Destructo Disk as an example of them getting stronger. So, in context, stronger is "more skilled." Raw power is still determined by how much power their infinite energy units can provide at one time.

[Anteros]

Being more skilled has always directly translated into raw power in Dragonball though.

[Rater202]

Being more skilled has always directly translated into raw power in Dragonball though.

If that was the case then Master Roshi would be the single most powerful person on Earth because he's had literally centuries to train and practice his skills. Also note that Friza was born with raw power and never trained a day in his life, nd Kid Buu being more powerful than most Gods despite being a near mindless berserker with no skill, only instinct.

It's more probable that Characters like Goku and Vegeta just happen to get more powerful as they become more skilled, rather than skill=Raw power. And that's assuming that you don't go with the headcanon that the Saiyans don't get much stronger in their base forms after reaching Super Saiyan(Until post BoG), they just seem significantly stronger because they keep unlocking and mastering stronger and stronger transformations.

[Lord Raziere]

More evidence that more skill =/= more raw power:

Trunks super saiyan 3rd grade form. Too bulky, too slow, too inflexible. If he had been a more skilled fighter, he would've recognized the weaknesses like Vegeta and not even go into that form. Instead he took it just for pure power thinking it'll be enough, and lost.

The fact that in Super he fakes out Vegeta with it in his spar shows that he has progressed very far in his training in skill as well as power.

[Anteros]

Ok, but there's plenty of times we've also seen a character master a new technique or training something skill based and another character explicitly remark that their power has increased. In Dragonball universe skill often means ki control, which translates to more raw power. I'll concede that there are plenty of instances where this is not the case as well though.

[Mato]

Ok, but there's plenty of times we've also seen a character master a new technique or training something skill based and another character explicitly remark that their power has increased.

When using the kamehameha Goku's power level increases. Since PLs very and can be suppressed or powered up higher, just attempting to focus your ki into the technique's initial ball of energy produces a measurable increase on a Scouter even through the fighter them selves have not actually increased their maximum ki in any way.

[Lord Raziere]

When using the kamehameha Goku's power level increases. Since PLs very and can be suppressed or powered up higher, just attempting to focus your ki into the technique's initial ball of energy produces a measurable increase on a Scouter even through the fighter them selves have not actually increased their maximum ki in any way.

Exactly. This is why PL's aren't reliable. It can result in attacks that have higher PL's than the person launching them simply because its all focused and refined. Its why a skill-based Roshi can keep up in a battle that many fans would say far surpasses him- he knows how to focus and use his ki right to kick ass with what little he has, instead of needing tons of it.

Or why Piccolo was a viable in fighter in the Champa tournament- he may not have won, but in the fight he did participate in, it was clear he was one move away from winning.

The great thing about not having PL's anymore is that this actually allows MORE people to get moments to shine, because you don't have people going "but his PL is xxxx and not yyyyy! he should not have won!". Its wasted potential, yes, aside from the one moment where Future Trunks defeats Zamasu and Roshi and Tien actually having a chance to fight for a change, but its there.

[Eldariel]

It kinda defeats the whole purpose of yet more transformations for the saiyans, but whatever. The whole show would've always been better off without the whole transformation nonsense since that's specifically restricted to the space monkeys and space monkey/gaian monkey hybrids. Or at least if it were made less significant; but Toriyama loves multiplying by even numbers so it can't be helped I guess. At least he's writing it so that none of that matters, at least very much. Like, the 10x Kaioken in SSB clearly didn't multiply Goku's power by 10.

It's nice to have the whole cast be somewhat relevant; in Z it was kinda silly that the premise of the show was the whole group of Z-Fighters, but practically speaking Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo did 99% of the relevant stuff with guest appearances by Tienshinhan and Krillin in the pre-Android sagas. The whole really works better when the heroic ensemble actually has a semblance of relevance.

[Rater202]

There's some preview images out for the Tournament arc.

You know how people have wanted kickass females or female super saiyans?

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One of the Fighters from another Universe is a Female Legendary Super Saiyan that is just as ripped as Broly.

[Anteros]

There's some preview images out for the Tournament arc.

You know how people have wanted kickass females or female super saiyans?

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One of the Fighters from another Universe is a Female Legendary Super Saiyan that is just as ripped as Broly.

Could you link me where you saw that? I haven't seen it yet.

[Lord Raziere]

There's some preview images out for the Tournament arc.

You know how people have wanted kickass females or female super saiyans?

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One of the Fighters from another Universe is a Female Legendary Super Saiyan that is just as ripped as Broly.

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.........

My response to this is that I want to squee. Forever.

[Rater202]

Could you link me where you saw that? I haven't seen it yet.

Spoilery Link

[Anteros]

Neat. Thanks for the link.

[Lord Raziere]

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Yup..... yup. I have seen only two seconds of this person, and I already like her miles better than Broly. like, judging by appearance alone before and after her transformation, she looks like a petite, elegant lady to contrast her LGSS form. If Super can pull off a female Broly that has more characterization than actual Broly, I'll gladly be her fan and discard Broly forever. Just like, "ok she has a personality in her base form that can be comedic or heartwarming or just y'know make her a person? DONE. Who cares about Broly anymore?"

and Super so far has given me no reason to think it can't pull it off. its gotten good character moments for a lot of people both new and old, so I'm confident about this.

[Mato]

Spoilery Link

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One of the gods of destruction is a clown!

[Rater202]

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One of the gods of destruction is a clown!

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And his attendant angel is female with pig tails. At least one commentator has made a Joker/Harley Quinn connection.

[Lord Raziere]

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And his attendant angel is female with pig tails. At least one commentator has made a Joker/Harley Quinn connection.

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Gods above. Joker as a God of Destruction. It fits, but just imagine how terrifying THAT Universe would be.

though it would explain why his counterpart god is a black fluff-ball with bat ears: his counterpart God of Destruction is batman!

[Armok]

Having just finished the last episode, I think it's one of my favorite "filler" episodes so far. Krillins always kinda been the fall guy, and its nice to see a plot actually tackle that and explore how he's dealing with it. Also, all those nods to classic DB!

Next episode better give us the sparring session we're all waiting for!