Dragon Ball Super

[Mato]

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And his attendant angel is female with pig tails. At least one commentator has made a Joker/Harley Quinn connection.

Yeah I thought of that afterwards.

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Also youtube is blowing up over a female version of Broli and we're off visual discussing themes and Krillian's character development. I like GitP's posts today

[Rater202]

Yeah I thought of that afterwards.

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Also youtube is blowing up over a female version of Broli and we're off visual discussing themes and Krillian's character development. I like GitP's posts today

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Now, Vegeta just glared at Goku when he went to spar, and a text only preview says that Episode 77 will be both the start of the Tournament arc and have a heavily pregnant Bulma and a panicking expectant father Vegeta... If one leads to the other, then we're probably very, very close, timeline wise, to the start of the Tournament.

Meaning 1: Getting his confidence and fighting spirit restored will significantly boost Krillin's power, or 2: The tournament being team battles means that not everyone needs to be a power house and one of Krillin's other skills will help him contribute.

Likewise, since Roshi mentions that not even an immortal like himself can fight off the ravages of age when he tells Goku and Krillin to get the Paradise Plant. Perhaps the plant has some rejuvenation effect that would restore to Roshi some of the strength old age has taken from him, allowing him to fully compete with the centuries of skill he has? Or he's just there for all of those techniques he has but never taught anyone.

Or, as a third option, Roshi wasn't bluffing when he said he had a technique that makes you stronger in a pinch(probably created after the King Piccolo arc) and will teach it to Krillin.

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The thought occurs to me.

While Broly's place in the main is questionable, the concept of the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation is pretty solidly canon now, with the preview.

One of the signs of Broly being the Legendary Super Saiyan was being born with an insane power level(by infant standards) and an apparent instinctual ability to use Ki, even as an infant(protecting himself and Paragus with a shield and flying to a different planet).

I'd now note that baby Pan can fly on instinct and is strong enough that Future Trunks had to struggle to get his sword away from her.

[Mato]

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Bulma's pregnancy announcement will probably be handled in these pseudo-filler episodes just before the tournament.

#1 I think if Krillin can simply return to his previous level he'd be all right. He'd theoretically around Frieza's old power which puts him ahead of everyone but Hit out of Universe 6. #2 Krillin moving more towards a skill master instead of a power house would be great. #3 A lesser form of Kaio Ken maybe?

Also Toriyama is on record for claiming the films take place in different dimensions and now he's expanded out to having sixteen of them and killed four of them off. Broly has always been a part of franchise canon but not in a known continuity, maybe that'll change soon.

[Rater202]

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Bulma's pregnancy announcement will probably be handled in these pseudo-filler episodes just before the tournament.

#1 I think if Krillin can simply return to his previous level he'd be all right. He'd theoretically around Frieza's old power which puts him ahead of everyone but Hit out of Universe 6. #2 Krillin moving more towards a skill master instead of a power house would be great. #3 A lesser form of Kaio Ken maybe?

Also Toriyama is on record for claiming the films take place in different dimensions and now he's expanded out to having sixteen of them and killed four of them off. Broly has always been a part of franchise canon but not in a known continuity, maybe that'll change soon.

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I'm pretty sure that toriyama wasn't referring to the 12 universe when he was talking about movie timelines.

Anyway, 1: Frost was about as strong as Post resurrection and Training Frieza minus the golden form and he was in the preview. Cabba in his base form was even with Vegeta in his base form(the difference between their power in SSJ can be explained by Vegeta being SSJ Grade 4/Full Power Super Saiyan while Cabba had just changed for the first time.) Not to mention they'll be 4 more members of Universe 6's team, and there are 100 more competitors from the other 10 universes. 2 Well, Krillin did become the New Turtle Sage inOnline's backstory, and there have been some hints heading that way.

[Mato]

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Anyway, 1: Frost was about as strong as Post resurrection and Training Frieza minus the golden form and he was in the preview.

Cabba in his base form was even with Vegeta in his base form(the difference between their power in SSJ can be explained by Vegeta being SSJ Grade 4/Full Power Super Saiyan while Cabba had just changed for the first time.)

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Frost was failing to beat Piccolo who was last seen below 17's level and Piccolo is not as strong as Golden Frieza.

And Cabba was totally outclassed. You're taking Vegeta's statement we're even as fact when it's about as true as Goku's when he was fighting Vegeta during the Buu Saga. In the anime Cabba really doesn't do anything other than surprise Vegeta. Like Vegeta was able to counter Cabba's galick gun after Cabba already charged up and fired, and Cabba went into shock and awe at Vegeta's true non-god non-super ki. Over in the manga there's a panel depicting Cabba shoving two feet in Vegeta's chest and Vegta's like ooh that's cool. The fight is mostly about Vegeta being impressed with Cabba's display of skill, rather than his power. Vegeta kicks Cabba once and the kid is reduced to an arm-holding dirt-covered losing state.

[Rater202]

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Frost was failing to beat Piccolo who was last seen below 17's level and Piccolo is not as strong as Golden Frieza.

And Cabba was totally outclassed. You're taking Vegeta's statement we're even as fact when it's about as true as Goku's when he was fighting Vegeta during the Buu Saga. In the anime Cabba really doesn't do anything other than surprise Vegeta. Like Vegeta was able to counter Cabba's galick gun after Cabba already charged up and fired, and Cabba went into shock and awe at Vegeta's true non-god non-super ki. Over in the manga there's a panel depicting Cabba shoving two feet in Vegeta's chest and Vegta's like ooh that's cool. The fight is mostly about Vegeta being impressed with Cabba's display of skill, rather than his power. Vegeta kicks Cabba once and the kid is reduced to an arm-holding dirt-covered losing state.

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I'm only going by the Anime, since it publishes more frequently and tends to come first.

I didn't Say frost was as strong as Golden Frieza. Frost handled himself pretty well against Goku up until they both got serious and Frost cheated. By my eye, and assuming an increase in Goku's power level between Ressurection F and the tournement, Frost seems to be a great deal more powerful than Namek Frieza, so with that and other clues I pegged him at Rez F levels, but without Golden Form. So basically, he's roughly as strong as Frieza was on earth in the appropriate form as far as I can tell.

Piccolo had been training with Gohan for an indeterminate amount of time. Considering how much good that training is doing for Gohan, it's probably done some good for piccolo. Regardless, Piccolo wasn't winning on power, he was winning on skill and strategy.

Cabba's Galick Gun was dead even with Vegeta's, so in terms of raw Ki power they're pretty even--Vegeta countered, but he didn't overcome it.

Now consider just how far past Frieza arc Frieza Vegeta is even in his base form. Team Universe 6 could probably stomp the hell out of all the bad guys from Z.

[The Troubadour]

I'd now note that baby Pan can fly on instinct and is strong enough that Future Trunks had to struggle to get his sword away from her.

Because he was afraid of hurting her, not because she was stronger than his base form.

[Rater202]

Because he was afraid of hurting her, not because she was stronger than his base form.

I never said she was stronger. She is, however, strong enough that he couldn't easily yank his sword from her grasp.That is hellaciously strong for an infant.

[Mato]

I'm only going by the Anime, since it publishes more frequently and tends to come first.

And as noted, same story there.

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Frost handled himself pretty well against Goku

Everyone seems to hold ok against Goku because he holds back. He could have beaten Majin Vegeta but decided to support Vegeta's ego, he could have beaten fat Buu but decided to let Gotanks handle it, he could have beaten kid Buu but wanted Vegeta to have a turn. It's a running theme, like all them forgetting to go super saiyen in the android 13 film or how Goku vs golden Frieza looks close but Vegeta could curbstomp him despite being weaker than Goku as Super depicts. Now try to actually watch the fight, here I can help you with that. Stage 3 Frost manages to bombard Goku who gets up unharmed and goes SSj1 for the sole reason of trying to convince Frost to take the fight seriously.

Regardless, Piccolo wasn't winning on power, he was winning on skill and strategy.

Which barely exists in DBZ as speed/power are superior. Also you should probably find the youtube clip on that fight too.

Cabba's Galick Gun was dead even with Vegeta's, so in terms of raw Ki power they're pretty even--Vegeta countered, but he didn't overcome it.

Actually Vegeta initiated quick-firing his (no charging, no stance, no name calling, etc) his blast after Cabba's already traveled over half the distance to him. Their beams are FTL and charging time for moves as well as increasing your PL/ki is a fact but Vegeta, whom we can plainly see is hanging back judging Cabba's capabilities, could match Cabba's all-out best attempt with a last minute counter out of his already on-hand energy supply. And then Vegeta let's loose a tiny bit of his real power sending Cabba into shock and awe. Here, watch the video. That first shock wave he releases has nothing to do with his SSj1 transformation.

Hit, the guy with two legendary abilities, is the only combatant in universe 6 that comes close to Vegeta & Goku's unheard of god-ranked powers that even the angels didn't even know was possible.

[The Troubadour]

Piccolo was pretty clearly about to win against Frost when the latter cheated. Also, Goku wasn't holding back against Golden Freeza after he transformed into Blue, he was straight-up losing until Freeza's endurance started running out.

I never said she was stronger. She is, however, strong enough that he couldn't easily yank his sword from her grasp.That is hellaciously strong for an infant.

Is it any stronger than what we've seen of the few scenes we've had of baby Goku, though?

[Lord Raziere]

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Now, Vegeta just glared at Goku when he went to spar, and a text only preview says that Episode 77 will be both the start of the Tournament arc and have a heavily pregnant Bulma and a panicking expectant father Vegeta... If one leads to the other, then we're probably very, very close, timeline wise, to the start of the Tournament.

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panicking Vegeta? over fatherhood? Thats.....I'm trying to wrap around my head around what Vegeta would be panicking about:
Vegeta: I'm worried. Is...is my baby girl going to be a strong fighter!? Will she want to be a strong fighter!? What if she doesn't!?!? Can I raise her right if she doesn't want to be a warrior!?! What about her Saiyan heritage!!?? what if she falls for a weakling?! What if she grows up and thinks me as this crazy man who rants about a race that no longer exists!? Worse: WHAT IF SHE LOSES TO KAKAROT'S CHILDREN!?

yeah, I'm going to assume that panicking expectant Vegeta is going to be hilarious.

[Anteros]

I never said she was stronger. She is, however, strong enough that he couldn't easily yank his sword from her grasp.That is hellaciously strong for an infant.

It doesn't really work that way. Any adult can easily yank anything out of a real baby's hand with almost no effort, but since you don't want to rip their little fingers off or hurt them in any way so you sit there and slowly coax them into letting go.

[Mato]

Also, Goku wasn't holding back against Golden Freeza after he transformed into Blue, he was straight-up losing until Freeza's endurance started running out.

Eh, Frieza had an advantage but Goku got his own hits in. I'd have to rewatch Super's Sub to double check and the first video I tried was deleted. So here, have the English dub of Res F where they specifically call out Frieza's stamina-drain isn't affecting him yet, Frieza immediately goes all in and Goku is immediately shown to have an advantage over Frieza. It's almost like SSB consumes a ton of stamina and upon figuring out Frieza would run out first Goku choose to start using more power than he was before or something.

It doesn't really work that way. Any adult can easily yank anything out of a real baby's hand with almost no effort, but since you don't want to rip their little fingers off or hurt them in any way so you sit there and slowly coax them into letting go.

Now I want to see Bulla grasping Vegeta's hair with one of those baby death grips while he's just flying around.

[Indarra]

If Vegeta defeats Hit in the first round that would be a decent opener to the tournament. He even has a technique that should counter time-skip: trapping Hit with those ki rings Goku was immobilized with during their Buu Saga fight.
Since Hit can't move while in his intangible mode, he couldn't escape with that either. Theoretically, if Vegeta can get one use of those in the fight should be a curb-stomp.

[The Troubadour]

[...] where they specifically call out Frieza's stamina-drain isn't affecting him yet,

They say no such thing. In fact, for Goku and Vegeta to have noticed the Golden Form's weakness, Freeza's stamina had to have already started dropping at some earlier point. You'll also note that's the point in the fight when Goku starts moving around more and taking more evasive maneuvers, like he's trying to drag things out and let Freeza's stamina drop more and more.

[Devonix]

They say no such thing. In fact, for Goku and Vegeta to have noticed the Golden Form's weakness, Freeza's stamina had to have already started dropping at some earlier point. You'll also note that's the point in the fight when Goku starts moving around more and taking more evasive maneuvers, like he's trying to drag things out and let Freeza's stamina drop more and more.

Yep, it's the good old Rope A Dope. Tire out a stronger opponent by making them punch themselves tired.

[Rater202]

So, having gone over the most recent episode and the preview for the next one...

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The forest is ignoring Goku completly.

Note, there are hated enemies of Goku in the crowd of illusionary Warriors, but Goku beat them back then and he's miles beyond them now.

Other than King Piccolo, who he never met, everyone present is someone that Krillin has reason to hate a fear--and King Piccolo can easily be strong armed in.

Tambourine was the monster that murdered Krillin in cold blood while he had no chance to defend himself--and King Piccolo would be Tamrouine's even more powerful and evil father, so that's where he can be strong armed in.

Nappa and Vegeta were enemies that Krillin was utterly helpless against. Nappa brutalized and killed all of Krillin's friends in front him and nearly killed Krillin as well. Vegeta was even stronger and brutalized Goku--the strongest and most heroic person Krillin knows, the person who always wins.

The Ginyu Force, even the weakest rendered Gohan and Krillin helpless, with only Vegeta sniping Guldo saving their lives. Against Recoome Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan together could only barely survive and this was after Krillin and Gohan had their latent potential released, and the other three were even stronger and more dangerous.

Frieza killed Krillin again, and once more Krillin was utterly helpless to prevent his own death as he's murdered in cold blue.

Cell ate the love of his life right in front of him, and taking anime only scenes into account Krillin's "never fail, probably an instant kill if it hits dead on" technique didn't even phase Cell on a direct hit.

And Super Buu killed Krillin and most of his loved ones by turning them into (self aware) candy and ate them.

This isn't a challenge for Goku. It's the forest attacking Krillin with everything he's afraid of.

[Mato]

So here, have the English dub of Res F where they specifically call out Frieza's stamina-drain isn't affecting him yet

They say no such thing.

Someone thinks 10 seconds of his life isn't worth being right.

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This isn't a challenge for Goku. It's the forest attacking Krillin with everything he's afraid of.

It's a nice theory and I wish it'll come true.

[Fine Dining Set]

I hope that Vegeta gives Beerus a good fight in the near future. Super, thus far, has largely been about the relationship between mortals and gods, and that the strength of mortals can overwhelm gods. The way that Beerus humiliated King Vegeta and authorized the destruction of Planet Vegeta really makes me hope that Vegeta will be able to pay back Beerus in kind.

If Vegeta defeats Hit in the first round that would be a decent opener to the tournament. He even has a technique that should counter time-skip: trapping Hit with those ki rings Goku was immobilized with during their Buu Saga fight.
Since Hit can't move while in his intangible mode, he couldn't escape with that either. Theoretically, if Vegeta can get one use of those in the fight should be a curb-stomp.

I'd be disappointed if Hit lost so soon - it'd be nice to have him fight against some other universe characters and get a couple of victories.

[The Troubadour]

Someone thinks 10 seconds of his life isn't worth being right.

"Someone", indeed. Here's what I think you consider the relevant sentence:

"It's not affecting you yet, Freeza, but it's about to." And right after that, Goku, who until then - and by his own admission - was both excited about and scared of Freeza's power ("Yeah. I'm excited for this, but I didn't expect you to come this far, so my heart's pounding a bit, too"), fighting at full power ("Let's both go all-out. Nothing more up our sleeves") and at a disadvantage ("I hate to admit it, but I'm a little bit on the ropes here"), starts turning the tables on Freeza and performing the aforementioned "rope-a-dope".

Really, if you need more proof, just compare Vegeta's reaction to Goku offering to trade places (Goku: "Hey, Vegeta! You about ready to trade yet?" / Vegeta: "D-Don't start getting smarmy on me! You're the one that Freeza is after!") to him offering to take his turn after noticing Freeza's weakness (Vegeta: "Kakarrot, you can trade out now if you want" / Goku: "Aw, no fair! You must have spotted Freeza's weakness, too, right?").

[Starwulf]

Man, from the way you all are describing the newest arc in Super, it honestly sounds like Toriyama ripped this one straight out of Dragon Ball Multiverse(a great comic btw, for those who haven't read it).

[Rater202]

A thing I noticed watching the episode.

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The Double Kamehameha that Goku and Krillin did at the end. Normally the energy blasts just combine into a bigger blast, but in this case Krillin's weaker Kamehameha wrapped and spiraled around Goku's.

So Krillin helped in a way other than just giving his power to Goku. He didn't make the Kamehameha bigger, he augmented it somehow. He contributed in a way that was noticeable.

In dragon Ball Online, Krillin's thing with the New Turtle School was that even if you're not the strongest it doesn't matter because you don't need o be the strongest to contribute in a meaningful way, you just need to be there.

It didn't really work that way in gameplay, but it's not like that's much of an obstacle in an anime.

If we get Goten and Trunks deciding to learn about swordsmanship or Tien being a total Badass becuase he figured out a way to gather and concentrate massive amounts of power after studying Goku's Spirit Bomb, then I think it would be safe to say that we're heading towards Online's timeline.

[Anteros]

A thing I noticed watching the episode.

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The Double Kamehameha that Goku and Krillin did at the end. Normally the energy blasts just combine into a bigger blast, but in this case Krillin's weaker Kamehameha wrapped and spiraled around Goku's.

So Krillin helped in a way other than just giving his power to Goku. He didn't make the Kamehameha bigger, he augmented it somehow. He contributed in a way that was noticeable.

In dragon Ball Online, Krillin's thing with the New Turtle School was that even if you're not the strongest it doesn't matter because you don't need o be the strongest to contribute in a meaningful way, you just need to be there.

It didn't really work that way in gameplay, but it's not like that's much of an obstacle in an anime.

If we get Goten and Trunks deciding to learn about swordsmanship or Tien being a total Badass becuase he figured out a way to gather and concentrate massive amounts of power after studying Goku's Spirit Bomb, then I think it would be safe to say that we're heading towards Online's timeline.

We've seen the wrap around thing before, but I can't say where off the top of my head. Maybe it was one of the movies.

[Xihirli]

In the Goku Black arc with the Galick-Gun, Kamehameha, and Final Flash.

[Indarra]

So Goku directly starts the Omni-versal tournament, unaware that this means that any number of universes between eleven and one could be wiped out.
That's going to crush the poor guy.
Also, I flat-out do not believe that Goku is mentally capable of slacking off on his training to the point of being able to get hurt by a bullet. I... I don't know how that would even happen. That's weaker than he was before Z even started, right?

[Lord Raziere]

So Goku directly starts the Omni-versal tournament, unaware that this means that any number of universes between eleven and one could be wiped out.
That's going to crush the poor guy.
Also, I flat-out do not believe that Goku is mentally capable of slacking off on his training to the point of being able to get hurt by a bullet. I... I don't know how that would even happen. That's weaker than he was before Z even started, right?

I think we should stop thinking in linear power levels where "This character is X powerful so Y". these people can still destroy planets, its just that as usual, Goku is overconfident, his flaw is that he always lets down his guard.

That said, Goku quite clearly caught all the other bullets, and the one that did hit him just kinda scraped him. I think he is freaking out over nothing.

[Anteros]

I think we should stop thinking in linear power levels where "This character is X powerful so Y". these people can still destroy planets, its just that as usual, Goku is overconfident, his flaw is that he always lets down his guard.

That said, Goku quite clearly caught all the other bullets, and the one that did hit him just kinda scraped him. I think he is freaking out over nothing.

He got hit by bullets as a child with his guard down and they didn't hurt him.

Then again, that may have been anime only. I don't remember it happening in the manga.

[Rater202]

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In the new opening, we see a short glimpse of Gohan's aura.

Was it white or blue?

[Spamotron]

He got hit by bullets as a child with his guard down and they didn't hurt him.

Then again, that may have been anime only. I don't remember it happening in the manga.

If it's the bit with Bulma shooting him with a SMG when angered that did happen in the manga and left comedic bruises that disappeared on the next page.

[Xihirli]

I just want to say that I watched the intro several times. It did look amazing.