Dragon Age VI: Siege Harder

[Metahuman1]

The idea I've got: Celene can keep the empire Stable, which, world kinda depends on, and will listen to Briealia on reforms. And reforms are something Orlies REALLY needs.

Gaspard, by rights, should have gotten the throne but didn't because freaking politics, and tends to be more Ye Old Line Officer. (Also, he's got Vivan amenable to him, Sera liking him, Cullen Liking him and Cassandra Liking him. Let me repeat that, Sera, Vivan, Cassandra and Cullen ALL agreed on something on there own. )

Briealia is a bit of a @(#!% but a potentially very useful one whom, as it happens, is trying to fix the second class citizen mess for the elves which is noble.



I played this mission once previously, wiped out Gaspard after stopping the assassination attempt with out combat to get the Belle of the Ball achievement.


I was thinking a public truce and getting Briealia and Celene back together would be preferable this play through.



Have I mentioned aside form getting a dance with your romance partner I LOATH this quest?

[Keltest]

The idea I've got: Celene can keep the empire Stable, which, world kinda depends on, and will listen to Briealia on reforms. And reforms are something Orlies REALLY needs.

Gaspard, by rights, should have gotten the throne but didn't because freaking politics, and tends to be more Ye Old Line Officer. (Also, he's got Vivan amenable to him, Sera liking him, Cullen Liking him and Cassandra Liking him. Let me repeat that, Sera, Vivan, Cassandra and Cullen ALL agreed on something on there own. )

Briealia is a bit of a @(#!% but a potentially very useful one whom, as it happens, is trying to fix the second class citizen mess for the elves which is noble.



I played this mission once previously, wiped out Gaspard after stopping the assassination attempt with out combat to get the Belle of the Ball achievement.


I was thinking a public truce and getting Briealia and Celene back together would be preferable this play through.



Have I mentioned aside form getting a dance with your romance partner I LOATH this quest?

I too loath it. Too much politics for me.

Spoiler: Possible resolutions

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Anyway, from what ive seen, having Celene rule alone or with Briala are the best endings IMO. Gaspard is enough of a warmonger that I feel bad for Ferelden, and having Briala blackmail him is entirely too shady and unsustainable. Forcing them all to cooperate solves the war in the short term, but the political instability remains. If you reconcile Celene and Briala, they actually do reconcile and work together though, and if its just Celene, she is able to rule without interference, for whatever that ends up being worth.

[Morty]

I like Wicked Hearts, Wicked Eyes. There's an actual time limit that, while liberal, does give us an incentive not to screw around doing whatever we feel like. We need to pick our priorities and make a decently murky choice at the end.

I do wish the choice didn't involve hunting down some damn statuettes, but I guess they couldn't resist a scavenger hunt.

[Kish]

I like it, too.

And I'm chuckling at the implication that Cassandra, Vivienne, Sera, and Cullen all agreeing on something make that thing "yes" and not "oh Fade no."

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I too loath it. Too much politics for me.

Spoiler: Possible resolutions

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Anyway, from what ive seen, having Celene rule alone or with Briala are the best endings IMO. Gaspard is enough of a warmonger that I feel bad for Ferelden, and having Briala blackmail him is entirely too shady and unsustainable. Forcing them all to cooperate solves the war in the short term, but the political instability remains. If you reconcile Celene and Briala, they actually do reconcile and work together though, and if its just Celene, she is able to rule without interference, for whatever that ends up being worth.

With all due respect, I disagree.

Spoiler: Spoilers for Inquisition and The Masked Empire

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Celene may claim to care about Briala, heck she may actually care, but Masked Empire makes it abundantly clear that she cares MORE about her power than Briala. She was willing to let Briala's parents get killed. She was willing to let the elves of Halamshiral be massacred. She has routinely made it clear to Briala that even though she has the power to improve the lives of Orlais' elves, she won't do it because it doesn't benefit her. Both Gaspard and Celene are products of the Game, but "reconciling" Briala with Celene means asking Briala to just forgive Celene's actions so they're on an equal footing (it's like asking Alastair to forgive Loghain and accept him as a Gray Warden!), where at least with blackmailing Gaspard it's clear Briala is the one in charge, and in all honesty, the situation for elves isn't going to improve by elves asking nicely. All asking nicely got them was the alienages that nobles can rampage through when they're bored, and can be burned when it's politically expedient. I don't think Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts did much to show a "morally grey" setup, because Gaspard and Celene are human nobles, the epitome of privilege in Dragon Age society, and Briala is a city elf that has been oppressed by BOTH of them.

[Landis963]

With all due respect, I disagree.

Spoiler: Spoilers for Inquisition and The Masked Empire

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Celene may claim to care about Briala, heck she may actually care, but Masked Empire makes it abundantly clear that she cares MORE about her power than Briala. She was willing to let Briala's parents get killed. She was willing to let the elves of Halamshiral be massacred. She has routinely made it clear to Briala that even though she has the power to improve the lives of Orlais' elves, she won't do it because it doesn't benefit her. Both Gaspard and Celene are products of the Game, but "reconciling" Briala with Celene means asking Briala to just forgive Celene's actions so they're on an equal footing (it's like asking Alastair to forgive Loghain and accept him as a Gray Warden!), where at least with blackmailing Gaspard it's clear Briala is the one in charge, and in all honesty, the situation for elves isn't going to improve by elves asking nicely. All asking nicely got them was the alienages that nobles can rampage through when they're bored, and can be burned when it's politically expedient. I don't think Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts did much to show a "morally grey" setup, because Gaspard and Celene are human nobles, the epitome of privilege in Dragon Age society, and Briala is a city elf that has been oppressed by BOTH of them.

Which brings us back to how "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts", while providing a good picture into Orlesian high society, doesn't do much to shed light on the failings of the main players (because they are myriad, even in Briala).

[Keltest]

With all due respect, I disagree.

Spoiler: Spoilers for Inquisition and The Masked Empire

Show

Celene may claim to care about Briala, heck she may actually care, but Masked Empire makes it abundantly clear that she cares MORE about her power than Briala. She was willing to let Briala's parents get killed. She was willing to let the elves of Halamshiral be massacred. She has routinely made it clear to Briala that even though she has the power to improve the lives of Orlais' elves, she won't do it because it doesn't benefit her. Both Gaspard and Celene are products of the Game, but "reconciling" Briala with Celene means asking Briala to just forgive Celene's actions so they're on an equal footing (it's like asking Alastair to forgive Loghain and accept him as a Gray Warden!), where at least with blackmailing Gaspard it's clear Briala is the one in charge, and in all honesty, the situation for elves isn't going to improve by elves asking nicely. All asking nicely got them was the alienages that nobles can rampage through when they're bored, and can be burned when it's politically expedient. I don't think Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts did much to show a "morally grey" setup, because Gaspard and Celene are human nobles, the epitome of privilege in Dragon Age society, and Briala is a city elf that has been oppressed by BOTH of them.

Spoiler

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Based on the endings given in the epilogue, reuniting Briala and Celene ends well for the empire as a whole, and is the only ending where multiple parties live that doesn't result in background machinations that will just cause the same scenario at a later date. From the information given to us, they actually do legitimately reconcile and work together, instead of sniping at each other while putting on a cooperative face like what happens if Celene rules alone and either other party lives, or if you force all three of them to work together.

I am curious though which ending you think is the best.

[Giggling Ghast]

Despite having read The Masked Empire, my resolution to WEWH still has Celene and Briala reconciled.

Yes, Celene did awful things and lied to Briala. But their relationship was still beneficial for the elves of Orlais, along with Orlesian culture in general. (The massacre at Halamshiral was only really the result of Gaspard's machinations.) If Briala can get over what Celene did to her, then I have no issue putting them back together.

Based on the information I was able to glean from the ball, Gaspard is an expansionist. As a proud Free Marcher, my character was not interested in seeing a return to the glory days of the Orlesian Empire. I also know he was willing to sneak troops into a peace conference to attempt a coup - a very dishonorable tactic that says a lot about his ruling style.

Yes, blackmailing Gaspard might be better in the short term for the elves, but I had concerns about the long-term viability of that arrangement even before ...

Spoiler

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... Solas wrests control of the eluvians from Briala in Trespasser.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Spoiler

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Based on the endings given in the epilogue, reuniting Briala and Celene ends well for the empire as a whole, and is the only ending where multiple parties live that doesn't result in background machinations that will just cause the same scenario at a later date. From the information given to us, they actually do legitimately reconcile and work together, instead of sniping at each other while putting on a cooperative face like what happens if Celene rules alone and either other party lives, or if you force all three of them to work together.

I am curious though which ending you think is the best.

Spoiler: Endings

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I thought it was apparent: Let Celene fall and allow Briala to blackmail Gaspard.

[Keltest]

Spoiler: Endings

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I thought it was apparent: Let Celene fall and allow Briala to blackmail Gaspard.

Spoiler: response.

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The one that ends with the nobility on the verge of open rebellion? That seems... less than ideal to me.

[Cozzer]

I've read The Masked Empire, and I think reconciling Celene and Briala is the best option too. Not just for them personally (the actual best option in my eyes would be to have them as allies but not lovers), but for the nation and the elves.

Spoiler: Spoilers for the Masked Empire

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From my understanding of the book, I've always thought Celene isn't in love with her power in a... villain-y way. Rather, she knows that if she falls her successor will probably be way more closed-minded and conservative than her. I mean, look at it from her point of view. She can use her power to improve things for elves just a bit, or she can try to improve it a lot, fail, be replaced by Gaspard (or somebody like him), and then things become even worse. She's playing a bad card, but it's the best chard she has in the hand she's been dealt.

She was thrown into a crooked system she didn't create. She had to either play by the crooked rules of that system, or refuse to play and become irrelevant. I wouldn't judge her for choosing the first option.

[Kish]

I think reconciling Celene and Briala is the best option for Orlais, for the elves, and for Orlais' neighbors, and that's what matters, for my part. Celene alone is pragmatic enough that she won't start a war anytime soon, but will never help the elves or anyone else unless it benefits her, Briala alone (with Gaspard as her figurehead) will start another civil war in a hurry, and Gaspard is just plain disastrous in every way.

I also think most people here are seriously overidealizing at least one of Briala, Celene, and Gaspard. The answer to "who's good here?" or even "who's nonevil here?" is "ha ha ha ha HA HA HA." The question is which combination of the three rotten people at the center of the Imperial power struggle is least harmful to others.

[Anteros]

I just reconciled them because it was painted as the obvious best choice by the game. I had no outside knowledge of what ending it would give, or prequel books.

Bioware loves their formulaic romances. Reconciling a pair of jilted ex-lovers in a Bioware game is pretty much guaranteed to give good results. Especially when you consider the same sex aspect of it. I don't think Bioware is quite brave enough to portray that type of relationship in a negative light, considering how insane the internet can be at perceived slights (even if not intended).

[Giggling Ghast]

Maybe not anymore, but in DAO there was Branka and Marjolaine.

Ironically, I think David Gaider was more accepting of negative portrayals of gays than Patrick Weekes, who leans so far to the left he makes Gloria Steinem look like Ann Coulter.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Spoiler: response.

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The one that ends with the nobility on the verge of open rebellion? That seems... less than ideal to me.

Spoiler

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They're Orlesian nobles. They don't think of anyone else as people, so they can abuse them without guilt. Why should their opinions matter? Besides, Briala can handle them.

[Landis963]

On a related note, why is it, do you think, that the Orlesians are the ones who want the Inquisition tamed during Trespasser, and the Fereldans want it gone? Seems to me like it should be the exact opposite way, with vestigial Fereldan gratitude leading them to want to keep the honorable and useful military force around, albeit after having relinquished some of that pesky inherent sovereignty, thanks very much, and underlying Orlesian anger at the Inquisition's meddling in their affairs leading them to want the pest wiped out like the irritant it is.

[Kish]

Why would the Orlesian monarch--whoever that is--be angry the Inquisitor meddled? "If it wasn't for the Inquisitor, I might be dead instead of on the throne! Disband the Inquisition!"

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yep. And as for Ferelden, Varric said it best: "We've got a large army. Wanna conquer Ferelden? All we'd have to do is look east."

By the way I'm still having trouble getting DA: O's patches since Bioware doesn't support the website with them anymore.

[Giggling Ghast]

Ferelden just got through a lengthy occupation by a foreign power and has been weakened by the Blight and the Mage-Templar war. I can see why they're not crazy about an organization with Orlesian ties occupying strongholds in their territory.

Meanwhile, Orlais has a lot of weight to throw around even after the civil war. If it came down to Inquisition vs. Orlais, I wouldn't put serious money on the Inquisition winning that conflict. Naturally, they're more inclined to see the Inquisition as a potential asset.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

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They're Orlesian nobles. They don't think of anyone else as people, so they can abuse them without guilt. Why should their opinions matter? Besides, Briala can handle them.

Well, it matters because those little people you care so much about will be the first to suffer and suffer the longest if a rebellion does rear up. Especially if the rebellion itself is fueled with sentiment against them.

Maybe not anymore, but in DAO there was Branka and Marjolaine.

Ironically, I think David Gaider was more accepting of negative portrayals of gays than Patrick Weekes, who leans so far to the left he makes Gloria Steinem look like Ann Coulter.

That's true. It had slipped my mind. Just goes to show that I'm not always as right as I think I am.

[Landis963]

Why would the Orlesian monarch--whoever that is--be angry the Inquisitor meddled? "If it wasn't for the Inquisitor, I might be dead instead of on the throne! Disband the Inquisition!"

The three major players wouldn't be angry, no, but the nobility might be more than a little miffed that, say, an outsider waltzed in, foiled a plot that none of them saw coming, and killed the perp right there at the party. It would be an affront to their very nature as players of the Game. Also, this is 2 years hence - more than enough time for Orlais to become fickle. Indeed it doesn't feel like enough time for Ferelden to become as fickle (more so, even, considering they are calling for the Inquisition's dissolution).

[Kish]

Okay, given that you just said outright that the same amount of time is long enough that Orlais should turn against the Inquisition and not long enough for Ferelden to turn against the Inquisition, this is seeming like an assertion that Orlais should be more hostile to the PC's group than Ferelden by default, in-game events be damned. But residual allegiances from DA1 aside, the Inquisition has much closer ties to Orlais than to Ferelden--including having chosen its religious and secular rulers.

[Keltest]

Spoiler

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They're Orlesian nobles. They don't think of anyone else as people, so they can abuse them without guilt. Why should their opinions matter? Besides, Briala can handle them.

Spoiler

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Because civil war is bad? As Sera is wont to point out, they tend to trample the common people when they get it into their heads to fight about something, especially something petty.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Spoiler: Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts

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In all honesty, I'm trying in my latest playthroughs to act as if I don't know what's going to happen in the future. That means, when supplied with the information about what Celene has done, my Lavellan would basically go "Yeah, Briala deserves better, and I'm not going to shed any tears if this shem empress dies."

If I register my old copies of Origins and Awakening to Origin, will I be able to get my DLC back?

[Inarius]

Spoiler: Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts

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In all honesty, I'm trying in my latest playthroughs to act as if I don't know what's going to happen in the future. That means, when supplied with the information about what Celene has done, my Lavellan would basically go "Yeah, Briala deserves better, and I'm not going to shed any tears if this shem empress dies."

If I register my old copies of Origins and Awakening to Origin, will I be able to get my DLC back?

You should, but if you don't go to http://social.bioware.com/. Login on the top right and click your login name. From there mouse over my games on the left, select your registered game content and you can download all of your the DLC from there. You can also see on that page if your Bioware account has an Origin ID (it should since all Bioware accounts were converted to Origin accounts). If it does your achievements will all carry over if you add the game to Origin using that account.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You should, but if you don't go to http://social.bioware.com/. Login on the top right and click your login name. From there mouse over my games on the left, select your registered game content and you can download all of your the DLC from there. You can also see on that page if your Bioware account has an Origin ID (it should since all Bioware accounts were converted to Origin accounts). If it does your achievements will all carry over if you add the game to Origin using that account.

I was able to do that when I installed from the discs, it's just that some of them didn't work because I needed a patch that doesn't appear to be supported on the website anymore. Origin should have that patch right?

[Inarius]

I was able to do that when I installed from the discs, it's just that some of them didn't work because I needed a patch that doesn't appear to be supported on the website anymore. Origin should have that patch right?

Yeah, Origin automatically patches it to the latest version.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Excellent! I'll be able to get that started at last! Thanks, Inarius!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I can't decide if I wanna play an elf sword and shield Warrior or Knight Enchanter Mage in Inquisition.

[Keltest]

I can't decide if I wanna play an elf sword and shield Warrior or Knight Enchanter Mage in Inquisition.

If you prefer to be in the middle mixing it up, sword and board is the better choice IMO. Unfortunately, the mage chassis doesn't have a whole lot to contribute to that playstyle even with the KE spec. You can be kinda-sorta tankey, but not as much as a full on warrior, and you can kind of deal some damage, but not as much as if you were a full on blaster mage.