Fact: Pathfinder has solved the Caster/Non-Caster Disparity of 3.5

[AvatarVecna]

Done but real dms disallow that spell

I'll be sure to let all my DMs know they're terrible at their job and are having badwrongfun by using it.

[Coretron03]

Again you I could have cast protection from arrows and call it a day (this is based on a witch I have played before, so no theory crafting here)

Also, does anyone know where a net arrow can be found?

[AvatarVecna]

Again you I could have cast protection from arrows and call it a day (this is based on a witch I have played before, so no theory crafting here)

Protection From Arrows is nice at low levels, particularly for the duration, but as levels climb, damage climbs high and magic items become more prevalent, making it not nearly as effective.

And Wind Wall doesn't lock down all ranged combat: throsn wespons have a good chance of getting through, as do firearms, and seige scale weapons are good too. It's hardly perfect, but it's mostly better than Protection From Arrows, and remains relevant longer, but it's not a perfect solution on its own (unless youcre facing a bow/crossbowman, then he's flubbernucked).

[Coretron03]

Yeah but at level 3 dr 10/magic is great, since WBL is not high enough to get magic bows yet and even at level 5 not every mook will have +1 bows (if they do then RIP WBL)

[Calthropstu]

His bow with 1 arrow a round, likey no enchantments and probably none of the feats. Go 1d8 damage a round! Of course the witch is going to be with in the fighters reach, silly me. While the witch can cast evil eye, then slumber twice and wait for you to fail the save.

edit: wait, net arrow. Whats a net arrow? Do you mean trip arrow?

I meant tangleshot... but that only works on wings, not spells.

There is still the grappling hook however. Same effect. Most GMs I have played with have allowed that specific use of a grappling hook.

I generally take some penalties to the grapple check, but... it's a caster. You don't need much. There is, of course, always the standard approach as well... shoot her down. Other ways to take her down is to inflict the dazed or stunned condition... which would wipe her out. Dazed or stunned characters would fall.

[Coretron03]

So your saying ignore RAW so you can grapple the caster. Right. Well I had a dm that allowed a 5th level caster to cast 9th level spells at-will, so I can do that right? Anecdotal evidence usually does not help in cases like this.

Edit: Less sarcastic version
I had a dm that allowed mythic rules, so I can have mythic ranks right?

Edit 2: The witch had prot from arrows/ other spell that gives dr5/ bludgeoning as my normal buffs which 1d8 is not getting past. How do you plan to inflict the stunned/daze condition? Also, I think being stunned does not cause you too fall as its magicial flight.

[Rynjin]

A useful piece of advice I once read: if you feel the need to pick someone's post apart to refute it sentence-by-sentence, it's quite likely that NOBODY will want to read what you're writing.

Yeah. If your post is so astoundingly wrong that someone can pick it apart piece by piece like that then it's more efficient to just point and laugh instead.

[Troacctid]

Wind Wall isn't on the witch's class spell list.

Do casters even take Wind Wall anyway? It seems like a pretty narrow choice to spend a known spell on.

[Coretron03]

I never said I took wind wall, AV brought it up as a anti archer spell over prot from arrows. Negating all archers forever is a pretty good use of a 3rd level spell and even if you dont want to spend a spell known/scribed a scroll of it only costs 325gp

[Calthropstu]

So your saying ignore RAW so you can grapple the caster. Right. Well I had a dm that allowed a 5th level caster to cast 9th level spells at-will, so I can do that right? Anecdotal evidence usually does not help in cases like this.

Edit: Less sarcastic version
I had a dm that allowed mythic rules, so I can have mythic ranks right?

Edit 2: The witch had prot from arrows/ other spell that gives dr5/ bludgeoning as my normal buffs which 1d8 is not getting past. How do you plan to inflict the stunned/daze condition? Also, I think being stunned does not cause you too fall as its magicial flight.

Show me, ANYWHERE, that it says that magical flight does not fall from stunned. Flying is a continuous move action. "Flying takes no more action than walking" rules for hovering "if creature does not move at least half its fly speed it must make a fly check to remain in flight..." The fly spell does not negate this requirement.
Since it "requires as much concentration as walking," flying is a move action. Stunned and dazed means no actions... which means you fall.
As for stunned itself, there are a crap ton of ways. Fungal stun vial, feats, low level spells worked into items, and a few other ways besides.
There are many, many ways to deal with flyers.

You would have been better off using my example of dimension door.

[Coretron03]

Ok, I will give the stun/fall thing to you, Although getting the stun? Fungal vial poision requires a hit (while touch, distance penalties and non prof), what feats let you stun on a bow without any preqs and using magic items to cast spells does not count as archery or melee. Then again, the requires as much concetration as walking refers to spell casting, while hover checks let you stay in the air and I would easily pass the checks to stay flying so no falling.

[Sayt]

Show me, ANYWHERE, that it says that magical flight does not fall from stunned. Flying is a continuous move action. "Flying takes no more action than walking" rules for hovering "if creature does not move at least half its fly speed it must make a fly check to remain in flight..." The fly spell does not negate this requirement.
Since it "requires as much concentration as walking," flying is a move action. Stunned and dazed means no actions... which means you fall.
As for stunned itself, there are a crap ton of ways. Fungal stun vial, feats, low level spells worked into items, and a few other ways besides.
There are many, many ways to deal with flyers.

You would have been better off using my example of dimension door.

Being fly checks, like five foot steps, are not actions and are not prevented by being stunned.

The fly skill is not a move action: "ActionNone. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

This hypothetical witch can't move, so she does risk falling out of the sky, however she can can attempt to hover. This is a DC 15 check, and isn't an action. With 5 ranks, +3 from a class skill, +4 from Fly's Good maneuverability, and +2 from Fly's +1/2CL to fly checks gives you a +14 to trying to hover. Skill checks don't fail on natural 1s, so you literally can't fail to do so under these conditions unless you have a dex or ACP penalty. If the Witch's familiar is a bat, that gives her +3 to fly, so she can tank some ACP/dex penalty.

[Coretron03]

While I agree with the above post (same thing was edited into my post) means you can 5ft step while stunned it seems .

Edit: Plus the mention of fmaliar reminded me I have around a +12 init score, meaning I will very likely go first and force a dc 22 will save (while you at best have a +5 if you spend a feat and have 14 wis) or fall asleep so I can coup de grace you for a insta kill. And if you somehow succeed the first one next turn I can try it again. This whole activity is pointless though, since it is usually based on player skill of knowing whats good. I could probably build a powerful fighter if I tried and could kick a lesser player's butt

[Coretron03]

Also Cal (I am just gonna call you that if its ok with you) pathfinder is a game of exceptions. Flight is a exception to most races can't fly. I Don't need something to say I can fly while stunned, you need something to say I can't fly while stunned as you need a exception to to say I fall when using magicial flight and are stunned.

[Sayt]

While I agree with the above post (same thing was edited into my post) means you can 5ft step while stunned it seems .

Well, you don't fall over, so you have some limited ability to remain upright and adjust center of balance.

[Psyren]

Wind Wall.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...ities/cyclonic

The PF fighter can even craft these by himself.

(And while we're on the subject, every fighter should go buy one of these too.)

[Pex]

Spoiler: For anybody playing at home

Show

On the bright side we can tick off playtest of one.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I would have liked a square for the Tier System.

[Coretron03]

Yes, but at level 5 (4 with summoner) that item is way too expensive to get. Plus what does a rod of cancelation do to help a fighter deal with windwall? And fighter crafting takes 2 feats to be able to craft.

Edit: to the post above we can also tick off low level play as cal said caster stuff doesnt matter until high levels, which I think counts

[Calthropstu]

Being fly checks, like five foot steps, are not actions and are not prevented by being stunned.

The fly skill is not a move action: "ActionNone. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."

This hypothetical witch can't move, so she does risk falling out of the sky, however she can can attempt to hover. This is a DC 15 check, and isn't an action. With 5 ranks, +3 from a class skill, +4 from Fly's Good maneuverability, and +2 from Fly's +1/2CL to fly checks gives you a +14 to trying to hover. Skill checks don't fail on natural 1s, so you literally can't fail to do so under these conditions unless you have a dex or ACP penalty. If the Witch's familiar is a bat, that gives her +3 to fly, so she can tank some ACP/dex penalty.

Hovering is an action.

Being in the air requires actions of some kind no matter what. If you are barred from taking actions, you fall. It is a flying maneuver, the act of making the check itself is not an action, but the hovering IS.

The ONLY method of being airborne and not requiring an action is levitate.

[Coretron03]

Hovering is an action.

"Action

None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."
Thats pretty clear to me.
And where does it say that it always requires a action?
It matters much less anyway, because my witch can cast leviate too.

[Troacctid]

Plus what does a rod of cancelation do to help a fighter deal with windwall?

Nothing, it's for force effects.

[Coretron03]

Oh, so force cage and stuff? Makes sense

[Calthropstu]

"Action

None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."
Thats pretty clear to me.
And where does it say that it always requires a action?
It matters much less anyway, because my witch can cast leviate too.

Please look closer.

Hover is listed as a "FLYING MANEUVER"
The maneuver is the action, the check itself is to succeed at performing the action.
ie: "turn more than 180 degrees while flying" or "fly less than half your fly speed" or.... "hover."

Those are the actions. Not the check itself.

Point. Set. Match.

Oh, and as for levitate, well... levitate is rather slow, and only goes up or down.

Now, I suppose you could in theory cast BOTH and be perfectly safe. Eg: levitate yourself then fly vertically. AND cast windwall/prot arrows... and be pretty much completely defenseless against pretty much anything other than a fighter... as the ranger's hawk tears you to shreds, the druid wildshapes and eats you alive, the wizard/sorcerer/cleric pretty much dominates you all the way... because you used all your 3rd level and half your 2nd level spells protecting yourself from mundane low level tricks. Oh wait... you didn't... as the hasted monk runs up a tree with his spider climb boots and flying tackles your ass.

[Coretron03]

Right after the bold there is the its says as a reaction to something. Like not moving.

After retallying its Deuce-40 to me

Ok, does anyone agree with me on my point of veiw? I know at least one person does. Does anyone agree with Cal?

[JNAProductions]

Please look closer.

Hover is listed as a "FLYING MANEUVER"
The maneuver is the action, the check itself is to succeed at performing the action.
ie: "turn more than 180 degrees while flying" or "fly less than half your fly speed" or.... "hover."

Those are the actions. Not the check itself.

Point. Set. Match.

Not really. It's listed as a non-action. I do agree with you that it's not 100% clear, but I don't think you can claim you're right and everyone else is wrong.

More than that, how are you stunning them again?

[Coretron03]

Not really. It's listed as a non-action. I do agree with you that it's not 100% clear, but I don't think you can claim you're right and everyone else is wrong.

More than that, how are you stunning them again?

I dont know, he just said fungal spore (accuracy problems) feats (One that has no archery related preqs and magic items with low level spells (none specified, UMD too low for wands and would need to last longer then one round to have an effect)

I am still not sure where it says the manuaver takes a action.

[Calthropstu]

Not really. It's listed as a non-action. I do agree with you that it's not 100% clear, but I don't think you can claim you're right and everyone else is wrong.

More than that, how are you stunning them again?

I listed several ways of doing so already.

And no, it is NOT listed as a nonaction. Show me where it says hover is a nonaction.

I see "Flying is no more difficult than walking."

I see "Flying maneuvers" which are listed as part of "Flying" which is considered "No more difficult than Walking." I see "Making the check in and of itself is not an action, but is part of other actions..." eg the act of FLYING. Which is no more difficult than walking. So please... where is FLYING not an ACTION when it specifically states it is the same as walking? Which is an ACTION. It lists HOVERING as a FLYING MANEUVER. FLYING is the ACTION. HOVERING is an ACTION, that is part of FLYING.

Since you can't take actions, you can't fly.

[JNAProductions]

A net-arrow (doesn't exist in any official source).

A grappling hook (which isn't allowed to do that from official sources).

And a poison, which is very difficult to deliver to a flying target.

Whereas it is very easy for the flying target to murder you.

[Coretron03]

Oh, and as for levitate, well... levitate is rather slow, and only goes up or down.

Now, I suppose you could in theory cast BOTH and be perfectly safe. Eg: levitate yourself then fly vertically. AND cast windwall/prot arrows... and be pretty much completely defenseless against pretty much anything other than a fighter... as the ranger's hawk tears you to shreds, the druid wildshapes and eats you alive, the wizard/sorcerer/cleric pretty much dominates you all the way... because you used all your 3rd level and half your 2nd level spells protecting yourself from mundane low level tricks. Oh wait... you didn't... as the hasted monk runs up a tree with his spider climb boots and flying tackles your ass.

Sorry for not explaining everything. Fly and levitate are both from my fly hex, meaning I get them without spell slots. I still have my slumber hex, if a ranger animal companion attempts to attack me I can slumber him as they have terrible will saves. Same with druid AC, Ranger and druid, plus anthing else. After that I still have 5 levels of spellcasting to fall back on if hexes fail. Prot from arrows last hours/level , making it likely I will have it up ( not 100% but if I saw a bow user I sure would cast it).

How would the casters dominate me? (especialy in a way that wouldn't affect the fighter) How is a monk getting haste? The speed boost doesn't stack with monk speed anyway and would require a hella jump check to reach me.

[Coretron03]

As I said earlier, the concetration part is only in regards to being able to cast spells without needing concentration checks, just like walking.
I will give you that I still need to cast fly but I can most of the time win init and I have a swift runners shirt letting me get 60ft away from you in the first round.

Also, you need to show ME where it says hover is a action, as stated before you need a exception to a rule to overule