Trixie Slaughteraxe for President

[sty.silver]

No, it's not inconsistent.

The one who uses the scepter gets a vision of a simulated future. However, if the simulated people know they are simulated, they can mess up the simulation (and therefore, cause the scepter's prediction to be fully invalid) by simply acting differently from how they would have acted normally.

Only the one using the scepter gets a vision. For the ambassador, keeping Lyndon alive doesn't have any specific interest, other than making sure the vision Lyndon gets is not useful to Lyndon.

I think you misunderstand.

One of two things is true. A) the simulated ambassador doesn't mind if the simulation ends, because he'd just return to his other life. (This is what you seem to be assuming). Or B) the simulated ambassador considers the end of the simulation to be synonymous with his own death and will do everything to delay that for as long as possible. (This is what I suspect is true.)

The inconsistency is thus: committing suicide only makes sense with viewpoint A, but keeping Lyndon alive only makes sense with viewpoint B. To resolve this, you need some alternative explanation for one of the two behaviors. If you assume viewpoint A, you need to explain why he goes out of his way to keep Lyndon alive. Preventing him from receiving a vision doesn't make sense. If that was the goal, then the ambassador could have just let the Jouster kill Lyndon.

[Welf]

Those spells Lyndon learned are really useful. With those he could escape the embassy.
It's also unusual to see Audrey being the one who is carried.

[MarcusSalviusOt]

So Lyndon and Audrey have come to the same conclusion as we did. So what now? Will they us the scepter or try to work it out in this universe?

[Ciffo]

For what they say, the only way they could return at the "normal" universe is by the death of Lyndon. I guess he could send a message to himself in the normal universe as the ambassador do. Will he have the strenght to do so?

[Lissou]

I'm wondering how they knew he was the one who created that universe. Was he the last person to have a vision or something? Since they were already in the fake universe when he touched the scepter, that can't be why they know it's his universe...

[DavidSh]

Shouldn't the universe belong to the first person who didn't have a vision? Because the vision doesn't appear until after a completed simulation, and they don't appear to be doing nested simulations.

[Welf]

For what they say, the only way they could return at the "normal" universe is by the death of Lyndon. I guess he could send a message to himself in the normal universe as the ambassador do. Will he have the strenght to do so?

I'm not sure if Lyndon has, but Audrey would. I don't think she wil give Lyndon a choice.

I'm wondering how they knew he was the one who created that universe. Was he the last person to have a vision or something? Since they were already in the fake universe when he touched the scepter, that can't be why they know it's his universe...

He was the first person to not have a vision. Here in panel 6 the universes split. From that point on we follow alt-Lyndon and alt-Audrey. Of course in theory someone else could have touched the jewel first. The ambassador touches the jewel next and doesn't have a vision too.

[Gez]

I'm wondering how they knew he was the one who created that universe. Was he the last person to have a vision or something? Since they were already in the fake universe when he touched the scepter, that can't be why they know it's his universe...

At the instant you touch the gem, the universe splits. They were not in the fake universe when he touched the scepter, they were in the "true" or "reference" universe until that point. Then after touching it, there's one Lyndon ("real Lyndon") that is getting a vision, and another Lyndon ("simulated Lyndon") that is experiencing simulated life in the simulated universe and whose last moments will become Real Lyndon's vision.

In all these pages, we've followed Sim-Lyndon's adventures. We won't go back to Real Lyndon until Sim Lyndon dies.

And we've already had that happen once, but it was subtle enough: http://trixie.webcomic.ws/comics/76/
Look at Lyndon's disappointed face when he says "I suppose we should head home then." -- he didn't see a vision. However, because that was the first time he tried it, he hadn't seen the scepter working before, so that didn't surprise him, just disappoint him. Then he dies real Lyndon gets the vision.
http://trixie.webcomic.ws/comics/77/
Notice how Lyndon still has his finger on the gem here. For real Lyndon, the vision is instant, he hadn't had the time to move his finger away from the gem.

The next few characters' death happen quite a while after touching the gem. And since the characters only get a vision of their final moments, they don't get to see themselves going "uh, this didn't work" first before dying.

http://trixie.webcomic.ws/comics/354

Every panel starting from the one in which Audrey asks "How'd you kick the bucket?" is in the simulation. Every panel up before that is in their real world.

[Lissou]

I get it now. Thanks everyone for explaining it. That does explain why Lyndon was disappointed and saying "Let's go home then" the first time he used the scepter. Nice foreshadowing! I didn't realise that because the split happens when you touch it, technically all that we're seeing is happening before Lyndon stops touching the scepter. He can tell real Lyndon everything and avoid whatever happened after he touched the scepter. I wonder how he'll die, maybe Audrey will kill him if he isn't willing to do it himself. But he needs to explain enough that Lyndon doesn't freak out since Audrey is right next to him.

[Gez]

I think you misunderstand.

One of two things is true. A) the simulated ambassador doesn't mind if the simulation ends, because he'd just return to his other life. (This is what you seem to be assuming). Or B) the simulated ambassador considers the end of the simulation to be synonymous with his own death and will do everything to delay that for as long as possible. (This is what I suspect is true.)

The inconsistency is thus: committing suicide only makes sense with viewpoint A, but keeping Lyndon alive only makes sense with viewpoint B. To resolve this, you need some alternative explanation for one of the two behaviors. If you assume viewpoint A, you need to explain why he goes out of his way to keep Lyndon alive. Preventing him from receiving a vision doesn't make sense. If that was the goal, then the ambassador could have just let the Jouster kill Lyndon.

Option C) the simulated ambassador is aware he's not "real", and he's also aware that once Lyndon dies, the real Lyndon will be aware of how he died and be able to plan something to avert this fate, potentially escaping from the embassy alive.

Think of this: if Lyndon sees a vision in which he dies very old, he will not worry about the jouster or anything else that is looking to kill him in the real world, and be caught completely unaware. Real ambassador wins. The ambassador is someone who doesn't mind dying when he's in a simulation if that will help the real him. There can be a self-preservation motive as well, since everybody assumes the simulated universe simply ceases to exist when the scepter's user gets their vision of death; but the most important mission was to get Lyndon to trust the embassy staff to be friends instead of enemies, so real Lyndon can be easily captured, interrogated, and executed.

[sty.silver]

Option C) the simulated ambassador is aware he's not "real", and he's also aware that once Lyndon dies, the real Lyndon will be aware of how he died and be able to plan something to avert this fate, potentially escaping from the embassy alive.

The problem with this is that there are much easier ways to prevent Lyndon from having a vision. If he dies while escaping the Embassy, then yes, he will get a warning and the Ambassador doesn't like that. And yeah, if he dies old, thinking the ambassador is his friend, he won't get a vision.

... but, if they just kill him two days after he escaped from the Embassy, then he also won't get a vision. All you gotta do is kill him quick so that he doesn't have time to think much. Like, the message submitted consists only of the things you've been thinking about right before you died. So just kill Lyndon while he's asleep and you're good.

I think the last update of the comic suggested a more mundane explanation: the ambassador does value his simulated life, but not as much as he values helping the Tsar. So if his death serves a purpose in that direction, he's willing to commit suicide, but if it doesn't (as is the case now), he would rather stay alive as long as possible.

Btw, I'm not as convinced as you're all are that Audrey will want to kill Lyndon now. It could be, but I actually suspect that she rather grow old. The comic could just make a time jump, or maybe someone else kills him.

[Lissou]

Btw, I'm not as convinced as you're all are that Audrey will want to kill Lyndon now. It could be, but I actually suspect that she rather grow old. The comic could just make a time jump, or maybe someone else kills him.

The thing is, though, if he dies of old age or something, or really any death that isn't planned, he won't get to send a message to the real him to prevent all the deaths. So planning to die in his own terms is the safest way to ensure he'll send the message. And the longer that's delayed, they higher the chance he will die from something else.

[Ibrinar]

Also they haven't exactly escaped yet and aren't under the protections of being protagonists that have to find a way for the story to continue, so being surrounded by enemies might motivate them to go the kill Lyndon route. Edit: ah no forgot they got free entirely

[sty.silver]

Fair point about committing suicide being preferable. But you don't need to commit suicide now, you can wait until you're old and sick and then commit suicide.

It could also be that Lyndon and Audrey disagree on this. In either direction. Maybe Lyndon wants to commit suicide and Audrey is like, hell no I want to enjoy this life.

[Welf]

Audrey is pro-choice, Lyndon pro-lif, and in particular pro-Lyndon-life.

I really would have expected Lyndon to accept. He seemed to be the guy who keeps dieing in simulations, while Audrey keeps killing in real life. But their plan has an issue, if he has an accident or gets killed it won't work.

Also, Lyndon is ripped.

[sty.silver]

I was really grossed out looking at his chest tbh

[Thorsby]

In the latest strip: swords and sorcery.

[Welf]

I still wonder what her school of magic is. Bellicose magic? It's pretty useful.

[Gez]

I still wonder what her school of magic is. Bellicose magic? It's pretty useful.

We've never seen her using her spells to kill anyone; she's tried to use the jouster and the snout elves to kill the gang but never her spells. So perhaps she's a pacifist mage like Lyndon. Except, competent, unlike Lyndon.

[sty.silver]

They're going to want to use the tree spell on Lyndon so that he doesn't die but loses his ability to do anything. I wonder if Lyndon commits suicide before that happens. If so it has to be now.

[Welf]

We've never seen her using her spells to kill anyone; she's tried to use the jouster and the snout elves to kill the gang but never her spells. So perhaps she's a pacifist mage like Lyndon. Except, competent, unlike Lyndon.

I don't think. She uses her spells to inflict violence on others. The first time she used the flying spell he intended to smash snake-Audrey with a rock. I think then she would lose all her spells.

They're going to want to use the tree spell on Lyndon so that he doesn't die but loses his ability to do anything. I wonder if Lyndon commits suicide before that happens. If so it has to be now.

The idea with a tree is pretty clever. TreeLyndon might life for centuries depending on how the spell works. I think suicide, or assisted suicide by Audrey, seems inevitable in the short term.
I'm not sure if Audrey already will die. Maybe Lyndon grows a pair and attacks the witch. He is pretty strong now and she can't kill him.

[sty.silver]

That's a good point. Yeah, he is physically strong and her weapon stealing spell is useless against that.

[Gez]

I don't think. She uses her spells to inflict violence on others. The first time she used the flying spell he intended to smash snake-Audrey with a rock. I think then she would lose all her spells.

I forgot about the rock dropping thing, but the first time she used the wing spells was to get away from the group after smashing the purring cat figurine. (Which was the worst crime ever committed, however it was technically compatible with pacifist magic.)
First appearance of the witch:
http://trixie.thecomicseries.com/comics/228
http://trixie.thecomicseries.com/comics/229
Rock-dropping:
http://trixie.thecomicseries.com/comics/286

[sty.silver]

Oh, the ambassador tries to talk into Lyndon's conscience. That's so rich. He literally tried to engineer history such that a disease would kill half of all people in a country which would subsequently go to war with another country, and all in order to keep one man in power. Can't imagine anyone less ethcal.

Anyway, Audrey isn't going to like this, because if Lyndon becomes a tree, he can't send a message to the other world. This is bad news for their real-world counterparts.

[Welf]

The Ambassador is a douche, but he has a point. If Lyndon dies, this world will stop existing. How many are those? 1 billion? And he would save maybe a few million? Of course, if he does sacrifice this life and exists as a tree, in the OT the ambassador will capture and murder him, and then use the sceptre again and again, creating billions or new lives and sacrificing them.
Also, it's a depressing thought that each time the sceptre is used a billion people gets sacrificed. The ambassador probably used it dozens or hundreds of times. Audrey used it 3 or 4 times on that shadow baboon, each time killing a billion.

[sty.silver]

I'm not really buying it. If having a simulated universe is ethically good, it just means you should touch the scepter all the time when you're in the real universe. You can create any number of universes however often you want.

[Ibrinar]

Well create and then destroy in years to decades.. Not much different than my normal morals: having kids is usually a morally neutral decision, killing the kids after you had them isn't. There are plenty moral systems where creating a bunch of clones isn't a moral good but destroying them after is morally bad. Are your seeing it from an utilitarian or similar perspective perhaps?

[sty.silver]

ye, valence utilitarian here.

[Ibrinar]

I think she will take things into her own hand if she now immediately kills him with the snake much of what he read out loud will be in the vision.

Edit: half called it she first summarized it and then snaked him.

Edit newest comic: were there usage limitations on the staff? otherwise he should check whether his plan works since forming it should change his future.

[sty.silver]

Yeah, if you are actually willing to use the scepter as often as needed (and I don't see why you wouldn't), that seems like a nearly unbeatable advantage. Not only could you find out whether your plan would be interfered with, but you should also know that these two are hiding below the table. You could just check all conceivably relevant boxes. There's almost no limit as to how well you could prepare. The bottleneck to everything is time and you essentially have infinite time.

Edit @latest page: the ambassador is certainly not doing it optimally, but he's also not shying away from using it (touching it every couple of seconds). I hope our heroes have a plan, because it seems like the odds aren't in their favor.