using 2e player options to translate various systems to AD&D 2e

[Zelliuz]

Hello to anyone willing to listen to my nonsense!
I am a new tabletop gamer and I want to share with you my idea in order to see how possible it actually is:


Problem 1: I want to run a fading suns campaign, but I did not like the victory point system, so I decided to run the setting with the D&D system. the main reason for this was because I really like the science fantasy theme, specially the magitech part. I am aiming for a perfect blend of this (33% sci fi, 33% fantasy and 33% an amalgamation of both). I discarded 5e because it lacks psionics and I heard a lot of bad things about 4e and 3e. 2e was the closest thing to a mostly positive review I could find.


problem 1 resolution: I plan to use the skills and powers sourcebook to translate and import the unique things of fading suns to 2e. with this I hope to have D&D pcs outfitted with fading suns characteristics that are analogous to the abilities of the 2e system.
how I envision this: a tecno-psi elf warrior facing a magi-cyber dwarf priest on elemental fueled spaceship.

Problem 2: I actually dont like sci fi that much, but I do love steam punk. I want to implant things of eberron into my campaign, but that is 3e.

Problem 2 resolution: I understand player options as a universal translator. I plan to pick the unique things of eberron and use the source book to translate them into 2e. with this, player option becomes the glue that keeps together fading suns, the 2e system and eberron.
how I envsion this: a technosteam-psi elf warrior faces a magi-cybersteam dwarf cleric on a elemental fueled clockwork spaceship.

problem 3: I know the psionic system of player options is iffy, so I just plan to customize my pcs psionic statics to emulate fading suns, but I will not run the sourcebook psionic mechanics

problem 3 resolution : I will use the psionic mechanics from dark sun in conjuction with the psionic mechanics of vanilla 2e (complete psionic handbook). whatever discrepancies between eberron and dark sun psioncs will be resolved with player options by reskinning powers and abilities.

Problem 4: I also want to incorporate cosmic and gothic horror. Ravenloft is a no brainer, but I actually really like the things in new world of darkness; specifically, vampire, werewolf, changeling, promethean and princess.

problem 4 resolution: player options also promised me that it can create totally new and unique kits. I plan to use the source book to create /translate the unique things of the new world of darkness modules into the 2e system. This kits will be treated in the campaign as special unlockable prestige classes. With this players options keeps together fading suns, the 2e system, eberron, dark suns, ravenloft and new world of darkness.
How I envion this: a techosteam-psionic magical girl elf warrior fueled on the power of love and hope faces a magi-Cybesteam werewolf dwarf cleric fueled on the power of madness and entropy on a bioclockwork spaceship running on the cries of misery and despair of elemental abominatinons.

Problem 5: I really like the 5e monsters, especially since there are lot to choose from thanks to the official and homebrew bestiaries, but I could not find a backwards conversion guide. I also know that the 2e monsters are bland and that they will not stand a chance against my over customized pcs, even if I try to buff them with player options. I genuinely do not know how to solve this.

tentative problem 5 solution: I heard that 5e and 2e are semi-compatible. I also noted that the 5e mosnters are actually heavily customized in contrast to the 2e monsters, in fact, they kind of have especialized stats like my customized pcs. because of this, I simply plan to run the 5e monsters as they are against my over customized pcs using the 2e combat rules. if I run into a mechanical discrepancy I will just try to rearrange it into something that works in 2e and hope for the best (other minor adjustments will be to reskined abilities that reflect the sprit of the setting, like a psionic powered clockwork abomination).

problem 5 appendix: if the monsters result inadequate either I will try to buff their stats or present them with unique additional challengues in order to diminish the pcs effectiveness. this challenges will range from purely mechanical to widespread roleplay consequences. (ex: by using your magic abilities in this warped space you risk a dangerous wild magic surge with irreparably consecuences).

Problem 6: I care litttle for class balance. I play alone using the mythic gm emulator. There is no party to speak of, just a series lone pcs in a very long pve crusade. In fact, I really hope that the game is terribly unbalanced against me. I care for class balance so little, that I actually understand underpower as realism. There is no human balance in real life, much less so if supernatural things are to account for, why should my fantasy pcs enjoy such a privilege?
I also consider a underpowered pc in a unfairly brutal setting a delicious challenge.

problem 6 resolution: The thought of playing sub optimized pcs against overpowerd foes makes me squee with delight. the only part of balance I care is the pve mechanical part ( that the setting and its engine are runnable). I have several house rules prepared to ensure my pcs dont abuse magic, psionics and tech. the house rules punish abuse with permanent crippling conditions in the form of corruption, mental-moral-spirital degeneration or dire roleplay consequences. (ex: each time you use psionics you get madder or moraly injured; the madder or moraly you are the more difficult is to get the trust of npcs or to access to your abilities.) After a threshold, the pc is done for and has made the setting more difficult for the next one.

so, what are your thoughts? I just want to know that there is a least a 30% chance for all of this work out, if only barely.
I am not really looking for sistematic or mechanical alternatives, because I really want to run it as I have explained.( exept for problem 5, I am really at a loss on how to procede on that). However , I recognize your infinite wisdom, so I totally welcome suggestions and tweakings to the above framework.
If one one person really believes that this is indeed remotely possible, I will be the happiest gamer in the world.

Thank you very much for your time!

[LibraryOgre]

Some of this comes down to your resources, but you might consider simply divorcing the game from classes, entirely. Instead, pick an XP table (I would normally default to fighter for this), and assemble some options for skills, abilities, and perks. Give everyone a chunk of CP to design their "class", and go to town.

So, you start everyone on the Fighter XP table, with Rogue ThAC0 and Saves, and with the ability to gain proficiency in all weapons. Someone making a Brother Battle is going to focus on more martial skills... weapon specialization, increased HD and ThAC0 progressions, etc. An Engineer will have a lot of technical abilities... might spend a chunk of their starting CP in proficiencies but you might also include some special skills that function more like class abilities. Rank, such a big deal in Fading Suns, should definitely be in that class ability range. If you want to be psychic, you buy the Psychic Powers ability with your starting CP, and improve various psychic powers like proficiencies (I would suggest using the S&P proficiencies system, since this method relies heavily on CP). You might even include some of the detriments, especially from Spells and Magic... special taboos, reduced access to weapons, a reduced (wizard scale), ThAC0, etc.

A new thought: rather than come up with a rating scale for the different save charts, put everyone on the same save chart. If you want saving throw variety, make the variation on how fast they progress through that chart. I'd be more inclined, however, to just offer flat save bonuses as a purchaseable ability.

[Zelliuz]

Some of this comes down to your resources, but you might consider simply divorcing the game from classes, entirely. Instead, pick an XP table (I would normally default to fighter for this), and assemble some options for skills, abilities, and perks. Give everyone a chunk of CP to design their "class", and go to town.

So, you start everyone on the Fighter XP table, with Rogue ThAC0 and Saves, and with the ability to gain proficiency in all weapons. Someone making a Brother Battle is going to focus on more martial skills... weapon specialization, increased HD and ThAC0 progressions, etc. An Engineer will have a lot of technical abilities... might spend a chunk of their starting CP in proficiencies but you might also include some special skills that function more like class abilities. Rank, such a big deal in Fading Suns, should definitely be in that class ability range. If you want to be psychic, you buy the Psychic Powers ability with your starting CP, and improve various psychic powers like proficiencies (I would suggest using the S&P proficiencies system, since this method relies heavily on CP). You might even include some of the detriments, especially from Spells and Magic... special taboos, reduced access to weapons, a reduced (wizard scale), ThAC0, etc.

A new thought: rather than come up with a rating scale for the different save charts, put everyone on the same save chart. If you want saving throw variety, make the variation on how fast they progress through that chart. I'd be more inclined, however, to just offer flat save bonuses as a purchaseable ability.

so, if my reading comprehension is not failing me, you are telling me:

1.- to use the player options to translate/convert/create to the 2e system whatever I want into buyable skills, abilities and proficiencies.

2.- treat the pcs as blank slates, in this state, they are just some ordinary chumps. They gradually become defined by a general concept and the interactions of their picked abilities rather than by a set rigid structure.
ex: there are two pcs that became engineers by purchasing roughly the same skills that makes them engineers, but one picked psi proficiencies to interact with AI and the other picked magical abilities to infuse clockwork gears).

3.- include a payoff-tradeoff mini-system, the more you become proficient in some in specific skills or backgrounds, the more you suffer in other specific areas.
ex: each point you spend in werewolf rage increases your save roll for con, but also decreases your save roll for int.

I really, really like this idea, kinda like the souls series actually.

Also, if I may be so bold, your reply makes me think that you imply that the specific framework I am trying to run is actually possible. the fact that you, as an impossible wiser than me veteran player, gives this some kind of vote of confidence, fills me with hope and conviction that I am not constructing an utter and hopeless disaster. Thank you so very much for your time!

[LibraryOgre]

so, if my reading comprehension is not failing me, you are telling me:

1.- to use the player options to translate/convert/create to the 2e system whatever I want into buyable skills, abilities and proficiencies.

Correct.

2.- treat the pcs as blank slates, in this state, they are just some ordinary chumps. They gradually become defined by a general concept and the interactions of their picked abilities rather than by a set rigid structure.
ex: there are two pcs that became engineers by purchasing roughly the same skills that makes them engineers, but one picked psi proficiencies to interact with AI and the other picked magical abilities to infuse clockwork gears).

More or less. Let's say Anna and Bob are both creating characters with the concept of "Engineer". Now, they're both going to pick abiltiies that match that, but you'll also want to include a "rank" ability, for a chosen faction. Anna might sink a lot of points into rank, becoming an important Engineer. Bob might have only the barest of rank, but sunk a lot of points into other abilities, being a relatively low-ranking Engineer, but with a lot of technical competence (or psychic abilities, or outside contacts, or whatever).

3.- include a payoff-tradeoff mini-system, the more you become proficient in some in specific skills or backgrounds, the more you suffer in other specific areas.
ex: each point you spend in werewolf rage increases your save roll for con, but also decreases your save roll for int.

Not what I was thinking.

Method 1 might be described as "Everyone starts on the Rogue saving throw table. Someone who wants better saving throws would spend CPs to increase every 4 levels on the rogue table, instead of every 5 like the normal table allows."

Method 2 might be described as "Everyone starts on the Rogue saving throw table. Someone who wants better saving throws would spend CPs to get a +1 on certain saving throws."

Also, if I may be so bold, your reply makes me think that you imply that the specific framework I am trying to run is actually possible. the fact that you, as an impossible wiser than me veteran player, gives this some kind of vote of confidence, fills me with hope and conviction that I am not constructing an utter and hopeless disaster. Thank you so very much for your time!

It's possible; I can see it working, using 2e to model Fading Suns, at least. Some races might be a bit weird to convert (the Vorox are going to take some work), but the general idea is sound. The framework I laid out isn't too different than my idea for Classless SAGA. I see your big balance issues being in assigning costs to psychic powers and spellcasting.

[Zelliuz]

Correct.



More or less. Let's say Anna and Bob are both creating characters with the concept of "Engineer". Now, they're both going to pick abiltiies that match that, but you'll also want to include a "rank" ability, for a chosen faction. Anna might sink a lot of points into rank, becoming an important Engineer. Bob might have only the barest of rank, but sunk a lot of points into other abilities, being a relatively low-ranking Engineer, but with a lot of technical competence (or psychic abilities, or outside contacts, or whatever).



Not what I was thinking.

Method 1 might be described as "Everyone starts on the Rogue saving throw table. Someone who wants better saving throws would spend CPs to increase every 4 levels on the rogue table, instead of every 5 like the normal table allows."

Method 2 might be described as "Everyone starts on the Rogue saving throw table. Someone who wants better saving throws would spend CPs to get a +1 on certain saving throws."



It's possible; I can see it working, using 2e to model Fading Suns, at least. Some races might be a bit weird to convert (the Vorox are going to take some work), but the general idea is sound. The framework I laid out isn't too different than my idea for classless-saga-a. I see your big balance issues being in assigning costs to psychic powers and spellcasting.

Well at least I got half of it correct haha!
Oh, I did not realize that rank was that influential in fading suns, now I can see your point more clearly, still, I will tailor them to suit the setting, I really want for my pcs to be as conceptually flexible as possible, reagardless of hard balance.


I was thinking about the supposed mini system, and it did seem excessive, considering I already plan to include rules for madness, sickness, morality, spirituality and permanent injuries to deal with special or powerful abilities. It basically meant a double or triple triple punishment for trying to succeed. I will stick with your alternatives, just let me familiarize more with the in order to actually put it into practice.

BY the way, the guide for your system will be super helpful, thank very much for that!

For the spell and Psionic costs, I will follow the general guidelines suggested in 2e, but there also should be some associated cps costs. At the very least, The number one rule is that the more powerful and specialized the ability becomes, the more you risk some catastrophic consequence for your well being and/or your surroundings. with this, I believe I have the first steps to a framework that tries discourages automated mechanical abuse, but I also realize that I need to start thinking for some kind of reward framework, even if it's only in the narrative spectrum (hope for the cause due to perceivable pc storyline success or progress) or to incentivate creative use of cps and pc resources. ( with careful use of your points and adquired resources, you become more expert in the nature of your abilities, which allows you to gain some advanges against the trappings of the setting; Discover the relationship between some proficencies and you can reduce to certain extent the severity of madness or injury more efficiently).

All of this is, of course, a draft. I'm willing to dedicate a lot of time for this to work. Again thank you so much for your help, if it wasn't for your replies I wold have given up. I will celebrate your contributions my making an storyline important npc in honor. Perhaps you will be my greatest ally, my worst nightmare or a totally different actor with the potential to radically shift the setting? Only the gm emulator knows!

See you around!

[Knaight]

I would strongly recommend picking a different system here. AD&D 2e's largely positive reputation* does not extend to psionics. It's one of the things that 2e players as a whole tend to dislike about the edition. It also just doesn't have existing support for the more science heavy parts, so you'll be doing a lot of work getting it in shape - more than if you picked a suitable generic to begin with.

*Inasmuch as it has one, it's more that the people who dislike it just tend not to talk about it much because it doesn't come up.

[LibraryOgre]

For the spell and Psionic costs, I will follow the general guidelines suggested in 2e, but there also should be some associated cps costs.

I'd be inclined to simply come up with a cost for most powers, and let people invest CPs in them. Sage Advice suggested a 9 CP cost for guaranteed wild talent; I'd be inclined to change it to 5 CPs per devotion, 10 CPs per science, and some cost for initial PSPs (say, 5 points to just have Wisdom PSPs, plus X per level). That makes the base cost of a single psionic Devotion 10 CP, though bear in mind level-delaying for CP savings.

I would strongly recommend picking a different system here. AD&D 2e's largely positive reputation* does not extend to psionics. It's one of the things that 2e players as a whole tend to dislike about the edition. It also just doesn't have existing support for the more science heavy parts, so you'll be doing a lot of work getting it in shape - more than if you picked a suitable generic to begin with.

I disagree with Knaight, here. I think 2e's Complete Psionics handbook system is pretty good, and gets better when you start treating powers like proficiencies... relatively easy to improve, if expensive to acquire. It also works really well with Fading Suns general approach to skills and powers and such.

[Zelliuz]

I would strongly recommend picking a different system here. AD&D 2e's largely positive reputation* does not extend to psionics. It's one of the things that 2e players as a whole tend to dislike about the edition. It also just doesn't have existing support for the more science heavy parts, so you'll be doing a lot of work getting it in shape - more than if you picked a suitable generic to begin with.

*Inasmuch as it has one, it's more that the people who dislike it just tend not to talk about it much because it doesn't come up.

I know 2e has limitations, both mechanically and in narrative.
I did get suggestions for other systems in other forums, but they all veered toward hard sci fi. Also, without player options, I won't be able to fit new world of darkness, and I am not going to drop that, no matter the costs.

REgarding psionics, I now the criticisms, so much that it's so called system is just reskinned magic. In the end, it all comes to power gaming in order to make it worthwhile, which I care absolutely nothing for, I am only looking for the illusion that they are inherently different. I am willing to stretch this so much, that I already have planed for a magic and Psionic sub system differentiation. Whatever exists in magic, doesn't exist in psionics. How to choose when a ability is inherently Psionic or magical? Based on my own personal interpretation. ( control person exist solely in psionics because I say so, therefore, charm person doesn't exist at all anywhere else).

Finally, whatever discrepancy in science and fantasy will be hand waved in my narrative because I'm the only one being affected by it, so I'm not concerned in that regard, maybe a roll will make the decision if science stuff works or not.
I will also plan to eventually fuse 2e and new world of darkness systems, I will use 2e for mechanics and statistics and new world for narrative and progress resolution, so somewhere alongg the line I am bound to find s way to solve the sci fi support thing.

To much work? I certainly hope so, I am not afraid of trial and error.
IrrenconciableMechanical disparity? I just house rule it in accordance to the logical framework of both systems.

Thank you so much for your time and interest!

[Knaight]

I know 2e has limitations, both mechanically and in narrative.
I did get suggestions for other systems in other forums, but they all veered toward hard sci fi. Also, without player options, I won't be able to fit new world of darkness, and I am not going to drop that, no matter the costs.

These sound like bad recommendations (building a magic system for a hard sci fi system is generally harder than building most sci fi elements for a system with magic, although vehicles have a tendency to be difficult). As for Player Options, while it isn't by any means a bad system for getting things across (particularly if you actually want classes), it's also not great.

Have you looked at Savage Worlds, Cortex, Open d6, GURPS, or HERO? These are the five more powers focused generics, arranged from rules lightest to rules heaviest. All have existing stuff for both sci-fi and fantasy.

[2D8HP]

....Have you looked at Savage Worlds, Cortex, Open d6, GURPS, or HERO? These are the five more powers focused generics, arranged from rules lightest to rules heaviest. All have existing stuff for both sci-fi and fantasy.

Off topic but.... Savage Worlds is rules lite?
I'm already familiar enough with GURPS and HERO to know that they're what don't want in a rules system, your saying that SW is at th er other end of the spectrum intrigues me.
Is there much of a learning curve for someone who's mostly familiar with Chaosium's BRP and TSR's D&D?

[Knaight]

Off topic but.... Savage Worlds is rules lite?
I'm already familiar enough with GURPS and HERO to know that they're what don't want in a rules system, your saying that SW is at th er other end of the spectrum intrigues me.
Is there much of a learning curve for someone who's mostly familiar with Chaosium's BRP and TSR's D&D?

It's comparatively rules light. There's room further left on that list, but they tended not to fit specific wants in this thread (tactical combat, grids, etc.). I could see you liking Savage Worlds though - it seems right up your alley in a lot of ways.