Crusader Kings II Thread IV: Time to Create a New Title

[Rockphed]

This is the thread for Discussing Paradox's hit title: Crusader Kings II

What is Crusader Kings 2? It's a Grand Strategy Simulation Game made by Paradox Interactive set in the Medieval Period of Europe and the Middle East. Rather than controlling a country or kingdom, you are in control of a dynasty. The purpose of the game is to make your dynastic family and legacy as powerful and prestigious as you can before the game ends or your family dies out. It is far and away their most successful game, and they have been continually adding new content and patches to make the game even better.

The base game stretches from 1066CE to 1453CE and you can only play Christian Feudal families. The multitudes of DLC extend both the timeline and range of available characters, while also deepening the game's various events. Notably, though, most of the DLC content comes with a major content patch. Thus, the DLC content is active for the AI even if you don't own it yourself, and the patch still helps to improve your game and this all helps give the different regions flavor.

Major DLC list:
Sword of Islam - Allows you to play Muslim rulers. Patch added the decadence and Hajj mechanics for Muslims, and also deepened their flavour.
Legacy of Rome - Deeper flavour for Greek rulers and the Byzantine Empire, unlocks Retinues.
Sunset Invasion - Alternate History DLC which enables a major invasion of Western Europe by the Aztecs.
The Republic - Allows you to play a Merchant Patrician in one of the major Mercantile Republics like Venice, Genoa or the Hansa, patch enabled mercantile trading.
The Old Gods - Extends the start date back to 867 at the height of the Viking Era, and unlocks playing as a Pagan or a Zoroastrian.
Sons of Abraham - Unlocks playing as a Jewish ruler, enables the College of Cardinals and adds a lot of flavour for various Christian and Muslim faiths and rulers.
Rajas of India - Unlocks playing as a Hindu, Buddhist or Jain, with unique events for each. Patch extended the map to include India and more of the North Asian Steppe.
Charlemagne - Extends the start date back to 769, and unlocks further customization of your realm's kingdoms, empires and allows the appointment of viceroys. Also enables Tribal holdings.
Way of Life - Allows your character to set a focus which unlocks certain diplomatic options and triggers various events.
Horse Lords - Vastly opens up possiblilities of nomad tribes from Mongolia.
Reaper's Due - Do you like death? Do you long to see Europe depopulated by disease so your Mongols can come in all the easier? This expansion makes the plagues that plagued midieval europe all the worse. Do you build hospitals to treat your subjects, or simply lock the gates and laugh at their pains? Also, it adds court physicians (who range from insane to insanely good), and new death noises.


CK2 can be a difficult game to learn due to its density, and the game has changed and grown a lot since it was first released. Thus, many of the standard learning guides are not as accurate as they used to be. There are many tutorials on YouTube, many Let's Plays include explanations of the game mechanics, and the GitP community is running a succession game that you can read to gain some insight.

However, there are some places/tips that, by consensus, are considered good starting locations to learn the game:
-Start in 1066. Europe is more stable, you won't have Vikings to worry about, and the Muslims are not as united as they are in the earlier bookmarks.
-Ireland, Scotland and Poland are all considered good areas to learn. Ireland is unlikely to be bothered by larger powers, giving you room to learn the basics. Scotland introduces you to the troubles inherent to managing your vassals while also having to deal with neighbouring powers. Poland introduces you to the troubles associated with expanding outside of Christendom while still giving you a powerful character and realm to fall back on.
-From there, playing as a Duke in France or the Holy Roman Empire can teach you about vassal relations from the inside, where you can learn how to gain/usurp power.
-The CK2 Wiki contains a lot of details about the game, as well.

Happy Crusading!

(Old Thread)

[Flickerdart]

The Wiki seems to be constantly out of date, unfortunately.

[Leecros]

I still remember the first time I launched this game. A lonely afternoon, with only myself and a grizzled veteran player to coach me.

It's amusing. I have been the Grizzled Veteran Player in this scenario for some of my friends. One specifically, he and I dove straight into a multiplayer game where I was playing the Duke of Flanders and he was playing in Ireland(as I instructed).

He played around for a few years and eventually managed to become the King of Ireland while I was just pretty much derping around. I managed to get my family on the throne of Norway and I pretty much stayed in Flanders...spending most of my time consolidating and improving the region while helping out my friend when necessary. Then I ended up with The Omen-Devil Child who murdered half of my family in order to become my heir and while the newbie friend was invading Scotland; My new devilself decided that it would be a great idea to convert to a heresy after getting himself excommunicated and the HREmperor who was my liege after I got independence from France and swore fealty to them(Was hoping to play the Election game to become Emperor) decided to methodically revoke my titles and exiling my consciousness to the family branch in Norway. The Norwegian crown was just barely holding on after Civil war and invasion from the Swedes.

So while the newbie was doing well and becoming a double King of Ireland and Scotland.....I, the grizzled veteran, crashed and burned before inheriting a failing state.

[Flickerdart]

So while the newbie was doing well and becoming a double King of Ireland and Scotland.....I, the grizzled veteran, crashed and burned before inheriting a failing state.

Sounds like you were having more Fun. The hallmark of a veteran player is his ability to have more Fun*.

*Because novice players will quickly lose once they start having Fun, whereas a veteran can hang on and have Fun for much longer.

[Shoreward]

He played around for a few years and eventually managed to become the King of Ireland while I was just pretty much derping around.

Meanwhile, in my second game – also coincidentally taking place in Ireland – I lasted approximately ten years before a Welsh adventurer showed up with ten thousand men and took my county out from under me. I do sometimes wonder how I would react to that situation now, compared to when I was a fresh-faced newbie. I imagine it would involve more mercenaries.

[Corvus]

I've just started a game in Ireland as well - going for the Catholic related achievements. Still early days (pre-900 from memory) and I'm just waiting on enough piety to create the Kingdom of England and then the Empire of Britannia. I guess I've been lucky, unlike in my Zunbil game, with my rulers not dropping like flies. Also had some good chancellors who were able to fabricate claims. That, pressing claims for vassals (including one for the entire petty kingdom of Northumbria) and farming out children to stake claims on bits of land has gotten me most of the British Isles, and three counties in Brittany - I managed to beat the Umayyads to them. It seems that in almost all of my games the Umayyads invade and conquer Brittany.


Speaking of the Umayyads, there was almost a Jewish Empire of Hispania. One Caliph had a son who I guess was raised by a Jew as one day when looking down there I spotted a 22 year old Shepardi Jew on the throne of Hispania. His father, the previous Caliph, was Sunni, as were his brothers. I as hoping ti would take as it would put a very different spin on the normal Hispaina game. Sadly he died aged 23 of severe stress without issue and it reverted to being a Sunni nation.

The Zunbil campaign ended well. Earned 36 achievements, including Papal Mache at the end, by accident. The Papacy got involved in a war I was fighting and I managed to capture him in battle. Given previous Popes had annoyed me I ordered his execution. Luckily the method chosen was crushed by elephants and the achievement popped.

Final score was 670K, 270K gold, 450K troops available (including 90K retinue). I could have taken more land but was taking it easy over the last 400 years. Just for fun I captured both Rome and Constantinople because I could, and also the entire coast of Europe from Gibraltar to Denmark. Set up a trade republic in Sanaa, in Flanders and in the Black Sea. Crushed the Mongols so badly never got established.

I'm going to have to set limits on myself in the future I think. Even though the Zunbils are a rough start, by 1000 I was out of danger and able to run roughshod over anyone who got in my way.

Maybe I need to try an even harder start next time - like playing a Basque ruler or a Kurd and trying to become Nestorian and then trying for independence.

[Flickerdart]

Meanwhile, in my second game – also coincidentally taking place in Ireland – I lasted approximately ten years before a Welsh adventurer showed up with ten thousand men and took my county out from under me. I do sometimes wonder how I would react to that situation now, compared to when I was a fresh-faced newbie. I imagine it would involve more mercenaries.

Back in the day the answer was "park your spymaster in Wales and pour hundreds of gold into assassins" but now I'm not actually sure.

[Leecros]

Back in the day the answer was "park your spymaster in Wales and pour hundreds of gold into assassins" but now I'm not actually sure.

Sometimes it's impossible to deal with situations the game dishes out to you.

If I was in that situation, I would image that an Emergency Royal Marriage would be in order. Up to and including marrying my secondborn son matrilineally to a king that can help me. Problems like that can be dealt with after the existential threat is gone. Failing that, borrowing cash from the Jews and kicking them out for more cash and attempting to hoard coin for mercenaries.

Still, ultimately sometimes the game just wants you dead and you have to accept that fate.

[russdm]

Sounds like you were having more Fun. The hallmark of a veteran player is his ability to have more Fun*.

*Because novice players will quickly lose once they start having Fun, whereas a veteran can hang on and have Fun for much longer.

So Crusader Kings 2 = Dwarf Fortress on Steroids?

Mind Blown!!!!!!

[Malimar]

Did we settle on "Umayyad Bro?" for the new title? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

So Crusader Kings 2 = Dwarf Fortress on Steroids?

Mind Blown!!!!!!

Speaking as someone who's played hundreds of hours of each: they are comparable, but Crusader Kings 2 is easier to master.

More specifically:

• The interface of CK2 is a little confusing and unintuitive, but the interface of DF is absurdly confusing and unintuitive.
• Once you have a handle on the interface, you're still going to have Fun when your first adventurer or goblin raid hits. Even if you can handle that, you're in trouble once the hordes/sieges start appearing. (Or you could start somewhere far from the hordes/without nearby goblin towns or necromancer towers.)
• In CK2, your kingdom runs without micromanagement -- poorly, but it runs -- so you have time to figure out each system individually. In DF, nothing runs without micromanagement, so you need to figure out everything at once.
• They both have options for super-difficult games -- start as Jewish, or Scottish Messalians in India, or whatever; start in an evil zone, or on the tundra, or whatever. But I was able to succeed with difficult starts in CK2; I was never able to even keep my starting 7 dorfs alive in an evil zone with certain evil weathers or automatic zombie creation.
• DF presents more complexity in opportunities for endgame megaprojects -- my favorite is the lava cannon (pouring lava on sieges: practical and fashionable!), but even getting a cotton candy economy going is a big deal. Once you've formed an empire in CK2, you've basically won and can do whatever, and it's just down to the slog of conquering the world.
• CK2 doesn't present any challenges on the scale of digging down to breach and invade the Hidden Fun Stuff (I never successfully managed to handle the clown onslaught without cheating).

[Aotrs Commander]

Did we settle on "Umayyad Bro?" for the new title? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

We did, but as we got all the way through page 50 without making a new thread (presumably while we all waited for someone else to do it...!), Rockphed, being the one who actually got off his arse to actually do it, got to make the final call.

(I was just thinking I should get off my boney arse and do it myself when I saw he had beat me to it.)

So, save that for next time!

[Rockphed]

We did, but as we got all the way through page 50 without making a new thread (presumably while we all waited for someone else to do it...!), Rockphed, being the one who actually got off his arse to actually do it, got to make the final call.

(I was just thinking I should get off my boney arse and do it myself when I saw he had beat me to it.)

So, save that for next time!

It was pretty much "we need a new thread since we are already on page 51", followed by "I don't remember anyone even talking about a new thread title", followed by "when you make a new primary title, your numbering system starts over".

Also, this was an unfunny way of saying "I don't know what to call the thread".

[Aotrs Commander]

It was pretty much "we need a new thread since we are already on page 51", followed by "I don't remember anyone even talking about a new thread title", followed by "when you make a new primary title, your numbering system starts over".

Also, this was an unfunny way of saying "I don't know what to call the thread".

The title debate was a few pages back but with the slow pace this thread goes that was some time ago. Given as you a) were the one actually doing it and b) it needed doing quick-like, it kinda doesn't matter what was said anyway. I certainly wouldn't have expected you to go trawling through the thread on the off-chance the discussion had been had, especially if you hadn't actually been reading the thread in during that period! Like I say, if we were really bothered, we should have gotten off our arses sooner, rather than just left it; beggars can't be chosers and all that!

(Collectively picking a thread title is only a gentleman's agreement for kicks and giggles anyway, it's not like it's rules or anything. We actually had that debate the last two new ponythreads we had to start.)



Edit: Actually, out of curiosity, I looked; we had the title debate on page 49, which surprised me, because I thought it was ages further back. And then I looked at the date, and it was the end of October! So it kinda was ages back!

[Leecros]

Edit: Actually, out of curiosity, I looked; we had the title debate on page 49, which surprised me, because I thought it was ages further back. And then I looked at the date, and it was the end of October! So it kinda was ages back!

the CKII thread certainly doesn't move as quickly as it used to. I like to theorize that it's because most people are too busy actually playing the game to talk about it....But I know it's more along the lines of the fact that CKII is an old game and more people are playing the newer, hipper Paradox games like HoI IV and Stellaris than this grandpa.

[Aotrs Commander]

the CKII thread certainly doesn't move as quickly as it used to. I like to theorize that it's because most people are too busy actually playing the game to talk about it....But I know it's more along the lines of the fact that CKII is an old game and more people are playing the newer, hipper Paradox games like HoI IV and Stellaris than this grandpa.

Ponythread used to get through a thread a week in its heyday...!



I think having the CK2 to EUIV converter was a stroke of genius on Paradox's part though; it makes it almost like two halves of a game. I certainly know my interest in CK2 wouldn't have been as high were it not that it lets me run on into EUIV and get a real headstart on that world conquest, inveterate map-painter that I am...!

It also can't be doing that badly, as they're still rolling out DLC (though only a handful to go, they say). Which is more than you can say for... most strats. I'm hard pressed to think of a better map-painter, at the moment (with the beauty being, of course, that it lends itself to doing so much more as well; something for everyone!)

[Flickerdart]

people are playing the newer, hipper Paradox games like HoI IV

Are they? I haven't seen a HoI thread on the first page in a while, and when it came out people were complaining that it was broken. Did they make it playable?

[Leecros]

It also can't be doing that badly, as they're still rolling out DLC (though only a handful to go, they say). Which is more than you can say for... most strats. I'm hard pressed to think of a better map-painter, at the moment (with the beauty being, of course, that it lends itself to doing so much more as well; something for everyone!)

yeah, Paradox's sales model of rolling out cheap, affordable DLC has helped keep the game alive...Even if they often get quite a lot of flak over it. It's kind of understandable with a backlog of something like $250 of DLC, but I don't think I have ever purchased a DLC that I didn't ultimately think was worth the money(With the exception of Mare Nostrum for EUIV).

Of course, that's also with hindsight. Buying a DLC every 3 or 4 months for $15-$20 doesn't seem too bad compared to $250 upfront.

Are they? I haven't seen a HoI thread on the first page in a while, and when it came out people were complaining that it was broken. Did they make it playable?

Maybe not Hearts of Iron, but I do know that Stellaris has broken pretty much every sales record they had...

[Valley]

In my never-ending CKII game, over 400 years and still going, my latest character lost a chess game with...Death.

Now I have to be a kid again. I hate that.

[OrcusMcP]

yeah, Paradox's sales model of rolling out cheap, affordable DLC has helped keep the game alive...Even if they often get quite a lot of flak over it. It's kind of understandable with a backlog of something like $250 of DLC, but I don't think I have ever purchased a DLC that I didn't ultimately think was worth the money(With the exception of Mare Nostrum for EUIV).

Of course, that's also with hindsight. Buying a DLC every 3 or 4 months for $15-$20 doesn't seem too bad compared to $250 upfront.

Older DLC also tends to go on sale pretty regularly, so it's not too difficult to pick up the backlog for $40-50 bucks if your timing is good. Plus, a lot of the $250 is in the music/unit/portrait/clothing packs.

[Aotrs Commander]

Older DLC also tends to go on sale pretty regularly, so it's not too difficult to pick up the backlog for $40-50 bucks if your timing is good. Plus, a lot of the $250 is in the music/unit/portrait/clothing packs.

That's how the smart monkey does it, at least as a late-comer. Wait for a sale (especially a new DLC-release sale, even if you don't actually buy said DLC). Both EUIV and CK2 I only bought this year and both times during a sale, spending about £35's worth to start with (which equated to all but the most recent one or two expansions), and picking more £20 or so in later sales, once I had decided that, given play-to-money-time, it was plenty worth it.

[Leecros]

Of course, I fully agree....However, that doesn't change the fact that a fairly vocal minority have an issue with the business model. Nearly every recent "Not Recommended" review on Steam involves complaints about the price of the DLC and it's not that hard to find comments complaining about it on either the Steam(where it's worse) or Paradox forums. This isn't a problem on the base game which still has an "overwhelmingly positive" rating, but many of the recent DLC pages have "Mixed" reviews"

It's also an inevitable complaint down in the comments in every new DLC trailer they release.

[Aotrs Commander]

Had a quick blast for an hour or two...

Curent goal is to try and convert (the Roman Empire) to Miaphysite... currenlty got my son educated (sans conclave game) via one of the few of 'em left around. I'm looking at maybe trying to assign him some land and then seeing if that makes it miaphysite eventually and then transferring the capital there and changing by decision (and then switching back).

Though, having looked at it, it appears that Miaphysiste is currently a heresy of monphysite, so I might get it come up with the random chance...?

[Leecros]

So it looks like Artifacts are going to be a thing a la Elder Kings and...I can't remember of the Game of Thrones mod has too many artifacts, but Elder Kings is chock full of them.

I'm of two minds on this. On one hand it's freaking awesome! However, as someone who has played a lot of the Elder Kings mod...One thing that I noticed was that often i would just hoard the things and have this huge archive of artifacts and it seems that they'll be done in a similar ways. Artifacts are inheritable and if someone dies without an heir, then the artifact will go to their liege.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay. I am REALLY fracked off right now.

Because I made the stupid mistake of usurping an empire title from the Muslims (not knowing any better) I am basically completely stuck with Hispania as an empire title, because it's fracking gavelkind and so means the stupid rule that you can't destroy any title because one is gavelkind title crap is in place. I can't do anything because it gets in the way of the Roman Empire title (y'know, my primary). Can't destroy it, because I can't change the succession laws, since my empire is sufficienlty large my vassals won't stop fighting for five fracking minutes. I had one vassal fighting a long, long, long stupid war with no end in sight (in the meantime, while waiting, I fought about 2-3 wars of conquest, fought off a Jihad and crushed an adventurer) and then I finally had the silly bint assassinated. And then of course I discover it's not any vassal pertaining the the title, it's "any vassal anywhere."

REALLY not amused.

[Guancyto]

If it's causing you that much trouble, either gift it to your favorite son (to possibly re-inherit later) or to a guy you hate to declare war on (if you have the Roman Empire title you can take Hispania back a piece at a time through Imperial Reconquest).

Yes, I know turning map that's your color into not-your-color is anathema, but sometimes it's for the greater good!

(Alternatively, do you have Conclave? Realm Peace stops all your vassals from fighting at once. That's sort of what it's for!)

[Malimar]

Really obnoxious problem with my mod that I can't figure out.

Spoiler: Code

Show

#if you're undead, you eventually accumulate all manner of deformities as your bits fall off
character_event = {
	id = Mal.51
	desc = "EVTDESCMAL51"
	picture = GFX_evt_sick_character
	trigger = {
		trait = zombie
	}
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		years = 10
	}

	option = {
		name = EVTOPTA6081
		random_list = {
			10 = {
				add_trait = maimed
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = clubfooted
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = harelip
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = hunchback
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = mute
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = ugly
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = weak
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = eunuch
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = blinded
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = deaf
			}
		}
	}
}

#if you're undead, you eventually accumulate all manner of insanities
character_event = {
	id = Mal.52
	desc = "EVTDESCMAL52"
	picture = GFX_evt_lunatic
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			trait = zombie
			trait = shade
			trait = wight
			trait = lich
	}
	mean_time_to_happen = {
		years = 10
	}

	option = {
		name = EVTOPTA6081
		random_list = {
			10 = {
				add_trait = stressed
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = depressed
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = lunatic
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = possessed
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = wroth
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = envious
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = cruel
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = cynical
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = paranoid
			}
			10 = {
				add_trait = ruthless
			}
		}
	}
}

These two events are, as you can see, very similar. They are, as you can see, supposed to fire about once every ten years.

The first one appears to fire at the correct frequency -- it's never actually fired for me that I can recall, but it seems to fire for NPC zombies occasionally, as sometimes I see very old zombies around with various bits missing.

But the second one fires (for the appropriate characters) about once a month, which is way too often, and I can't figure out why.

Anybody have any insight?

[Gnoman]

I just started a game as Saxony, and got attacked by Karl of West Francia (along with all my pagan neighbors). I was able to eliminate the other wars, but Karl died. Somehow, this has stuck me at 100% warscore and it is impossible to offer peace to Dead Karl, resulting in a stuck war.

[TheFallenOne]

I haven't played in a while, is it just my impression or do ambitions for courtiers fire far less often now than before? When I got a better councilor I used to wait a couple months for them to get the "Become X" ambition for that extra +1, but now it takes years if it happens at all. Same with getting married, most characters got that right off the bat and you could milk it for the +10 relationship bonus, but not anymore it seems.

[Aotrs Commander]

So, regarding my current Rome playthrough...

I currently have the eleven or so units of my demesne concentrated into two duchies (Thrace and Latium) and one barony off in the Middle East, wherein I have basically all the castles in those six counties.

I am, as they doin' it right, or would I be better served (especially regarding tech spread) to start picking out the odd county from a more far-flung place, making that my desmesne and handing out my baronies? That would not increase my vassal count would it?

[Rockphed]

So, regarding my current Rome playthrough...

I currently have the eleven or so units of my demesne concentrated into two duchies (Thrace and Latium) and one barony off in the Middle East, wherein I have basically all the castles in those six counties.

I am, as they doin' it right, or would I be better served (especially regarding tech spread) to start picking out the odd county from a more far-flung place, making that my desmesne and handing out my baronies? That would not increase my vassal count would it?

Vassal count only applies to vassals of count or higher rank. Barons do not count.

As for whether you would be better served, I don't know. I only just got the game and have been making all sorts of mistakes in my Adrianopolis play-through. I lost the empire to elective succession (which the stupid vassals made me implement), but am now the King of Serbia. Still working on getting the Empire back. The various fools who succeeded me have done things like losing a war against the Seljuk. The empire is still mostly intact, but it needs a steady hand to conquer the imperial losses.

On the other hand, if I had been a little faster, I would have won a holy war against the Shia Caliphate.