Crusader Kings II Thread IV: Time to Create a New Title

[IthilanorStPete]

That's what the tooltip says, but I think it checks before the new title is assigned. And landless courtiers are, by default, at your capital and therefore you are always de jure liege.

Just tested this. As the King of England, I went to war with the King of Ireland to push a courtier's claim on the duchy of Connacht. I won, he became independent instead of becoming my vassal.

[Flickerdart]

Just tested this. As the King of England, I went to war with the King of Ireland to push a courtier's claim on the duchy of Connacht. I won, he became independent instead of becoming my vassal.

Rats, I guess they fixed it. Can you test what happens if you grant the would-be duke a barony in your de jure realm first?

[Malimar]

Also, if somebody is in my borders gathering forces to reclaim their RIGHTFUL TITLE, can I give them a landed title, wait for them to start the war, and then join to enlarge my empire? Or would giving them a landed title break their attempts to gather forces? I think I have an adventurer in my court right now and want to know the best way to utilize him.

Landing a potential adventurer breaks the adventure, yes.

I'd marry him matrilineally to one of your daughters. That a.) makes him an ally (so you can join the war on his side)(recent changes may have altered this, I'm not up on the latest version) and b.) puts any territory he conquers under your dynasty's control in the next generation. Not quite as good as bringing the territory under your direct control, but not nothing.

[Dire Ferret]

Rats, I guess they fixed it. Can you test what happens if you grant the would-be duke a barony in your de jure realm first?

From what I understand, that should work. As long as they are landed as your vassal before the war and the title they gain from the war is lower than yours they should remain your vassal.

[Eldan]

I just love having the worst Court Physicians ever, it's endlessly amusing. My current one has so far taken my eye, my leg and my genitals to cure three separate injuries. One of which was typhoid. Though he also did cure testicular cancer, so can't fault him for that.

[Eldan]

So, in my newest game, I finally managed to form the Empire of Persia, after 200 years of scraping and bleeding and endless holy wars against the Muslims. And what does my new high priest of the reformed Zoroastrian religion do? Call a Crusade. On Greece. Of course, the Basileus has used the weakened Arabian Empire to take back half of Egypt and the Levant and most of Armenia and the Balkans, so... we're going to get kicked in our teeth so hard.

[Rockphed]

So, in my newest game, I finally managed to form the Empire of Persia, after 200 years of scraping and bleeding and endless holy wars against the Muslims. And what does my new high priest of the reformed Zoroastrian religion do? Call a Crusade. On Greece. Of course, the Basileus has used the weakened Arabian Empire to take back half of Egypt and the Levant and most of Armenia and the Balkans, so... we're going to get kicked in our teeth so hard.

Aside from a cursory appearance of your troops in Greece to get the Crusader tag, if the war is doomed to failure you don't really need to help out. Crusader does give a bonus to martial and an opinion boost with all your vassals and a bigger one with crusaders, so there is that.

On the other hand, the kingdom of greece might be hard to get to. I had a jihad for greece where the attackers just piddled around in eastern Anatolia and I slowly picked them off. After a few years the "Basileus Rockphed controls Greece" bonus built up to the point that I could force a surrender.

Speaking of, what is the tipping point between trying to force a surrender and just getting a white peace?

[Flickerdart]

Speaking of, what is the tipping point between trying to force a surrender and just getting a white peace?

I generally only White Peace if there is some other problem I need to be solving. Unless there's the threat of another war (a faction revolt, an adventuring band, an opportunistic neighbour) or the enemy seems likely to bounce back (just recruited a stack of mercs, their rebellion ended, I'm running out of money and will have to dismiss some mercenaries/retinue, I won a pyrrhic victory), or there's an opportunity to snatch land from a foreign lordling rebelling against a powerful liege, I prefer to finish the fight.

[Rockphed]

Okay, more questions: How do I defeat the Kaiser's claim on my title? He has 36000 troops, I have about 8000. I do, however, have over a thousand gold and I control Wales and Ireland. I defeated an English claim on my title by hiring a band of mercenaries, waiting for allies to show up, and then pouncing on their 11K stack with a 12K stack. Then I chased their shattered army around until I had destroyed it. I would have proceeded to do the same to their other army, but my ally didn't follow me to the continent, so my 4600 man army was facing off against a 4500 man army. So I went back home and let the war score tick up.

My only ally is Castile, who I have already called up. My 6 year old king is betrothed to the 9 year old daughter of the Basilius, but I cannot figure out how to get him to form an alliance. Any suggestions?

[Dopaminka]

Hyped for the upcoming DLC even though I wish they didn't put as much paranormal stuff (didn't get Reapers because of that). Also they are finally doing another UI update and commander autoselect (todays dev log)!

[SZbNAhL]

Okay, more questions: How do I defeat the Kaiser's claim on my title? He has 36000 troops, I have about 8000. I do, however, have over a thousand gold and I control Wales and Ireland. I defeated an English claim on my title by hiring a band of mercenaries, waiting for allies to show up, and then pouncing on their 11K stack with a 12K stack. Then I chased their shattered army around until I had destroyed it. I would have proceeded to do the same to their other army, but my ally didn't follow me to the continent, so my 4600 man army was facing off against a 4500 man army. So I went back home and let the war score tick up.

My only ally is Castile, who I have already called up. My 6 year old king is betrothed to the 9 year old daughter of the Basilius, but I cannot figure out how to get him to form an alliance. Any suggestions?

Is this a claim that his successor would inherit? I'm a little fuzzy on how claim inheritance works under an elective system (assuming the HRE is elective; I'm pretty sure it normally is) but if the heir's not his son, a well-placed murder could get the whole war annulled on a basis of "CB no longer valid".

Other than that, unless you have a spare relative you could marry off for another alliance or your pre-existing marriage with Castille makes you eligible for another Jimena alliance with one of the other Spanish kingdoms, the only thing I can think of is optimising the terrain and commanders and hoping the HRE doesn't have enough ships to get all their men across at once.

[Flickerdart]

Okay, more questions: How do I defeat the Kaiser's claim on my title? He has 36000 troops, I have about 8000. I do, however, have over a thousand gold and I control Wales and Ireland. I defeated an English claim on my title by hiring a band of mercenaries, waiting for allies to show up, and then pouncing on their 11K stack with a 12K stack. Then I chased their shattered army around until I had destroyed it. I would have proceeded to do the same to their other army, but my ally didn't follow me to the continent, so my 4600 man army was facing off against a 4500 man army. So I went back home and let the war score tick up.

My only ally is Castile, who I have already called up. My 6 year old king is betrothed to the 9 year old daughter of the Basilius, but I cannot figure out how to get him to form an alliance. Any suggestions?

Wales and Ireland? Sounds like the AI is about to attempt a Naval Invasion^TM. Just try to intercept them before they drop troops, so the enemy stack is facing the "landing into combat" malus.

Hyped for the upcoming DLC even though I wish they didn't put as much paranormal stuff (didn't get Reapers because of that). Also they are finally doing another UI update and commander autoselect (todays dev log)!

You can turn off supernatural stuff in settings.

[Rockphed]

Is this a claim that his successor would inherit? I'm a little fuzzy on how claim inheritance works under an elective system (assuming the HRE is elective; I'm pretty sure it normally is) but if the heir's not his son, a well-placed murder could get the whole war annulled on a basis of "CB no longer valid".

Other than that, unless you have a spare relative you could marry off for another alliance or your pre-existing marriage with Castille makes you eligible for another Jimena alliance with one of the other Spanish kingdoms, the only thing I can think of is optimising the terrain and commanders and hoping the HRE doesn't have enough ships to get all their men across at once.

My last 2 kings have died in battle after having 1 son, so I have no close relatives. And I think that Jimena no longer controls any of the Spanish kingdoms. Barcelona took Aragon, and I matri-married the heir a couple generations ago. Navarra is huge, having taken most of Portugal, though Portugal is still a Muslim nation. I think my kinsfolk also have Denmark, but they are a 3rd cousin or something. I would have preferred France to Byzantine, but the French have 0 daughters, only sons.

The war is for a weak claim, so I might be able to murder my way out of it. Wait, I am a 6 year old. I cannot murder anyone. Another of my kings-with horrible-life-expectancy got invaded by Scotland and England at the same time. England was pushing my aunt's claim on Wales and I couldn't kill her to end the war. Scotland was pushing a de-jure claim on a county. Somehow this all ended up with Wales being Gavelkind and Ireland being Primogeniture.

Of course, when I took the county back from Scotland (because the Duchy is still my vassal), they marched their 8K army into my 9K army at Ulster and got beaten soundly. Then I forgot that attackers can only get 75% war-score from battles and chased their army around instead of speed siegeing the war target. Then my 4000 man army thrashed their 5000 man army a couple times, so GO ARCHERS!

Speaking of, how do the various special buildings add up? Is it per unit? Or per county? Or per character? If I hire an archer heavy mercenary company, do they get the benefit of my Longbow Ground 4?

Wales and Ireland? Sounds like the AI is about to attempt a Naval Invasion^TM. Just try to intercept them before they drop troops, so the enemy stack is facing the "landing into combat" malus.

If they drop stacks in the 1 - 5K range, I can defeat them in short order. What I am worried about is a 10K doomstack. I know that a couple generations ago the HRE had a fleet of 180 ships floating around which dropped a 16K stack on some of my rebels. I am mostly waiting to hire mercenaries until when I actually need them. If HRE gets another war on their radar, I might be able to just let the "Someone controls the war target" thing tick up until I have 100% and can force a surrender.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay so hypothetically if someone wanted to get started on this (and has no experience with Paradox games other than playing Hearts of Iron II long enough to finish one 1936 game with world conquest years ago in college), do I want to grab as much DLC as possible, get specific DLC, or just start with the base game and grab whatever sounds interesting after I learn it?

[tonberrian]

Okay so hypothetically if someone wanted to get started on this (and has no experience with Paradox games other than playing Hearts of Iron II long enough to finish one 1936 game with world conquest years ago in college), do I want to grab as much DLC as possible, get specific DLC, or just start with the base game and grab whatever sounds interesting after I learn it?

Legacy of Rome is important because it has Retinues, an entirely separate army set, and really should be part of the base game but isn't. Sword of Islam if you want to play muslims, the Republic if you want to play merchant republics, The Old Gods if you want to play pagans/want an earlier start date, Rajas of India if you want to play in India, Charlemagne if you want an even earlier start date, Horse Lords if you want to play as steppe nomads. Conclave, Sons of Abraham, The Reaper's Due, and Ruler Designer add more quality of life things and nifty events which you may or may not want - check the wiki to see what each one does for you and whether you think it's worth it. At any given time the converter to EUIV may or may not work and besides you don't have experience with EUIV by your own admission. Sunset Invasion can safely be ignored, as it's just a big invasion of Aztecs into Europe.

But for the love of [insert beloved thing here] buy it on sale. Crusader Kings 2 is ending its lifetime and there is an awful lot of dlc.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

My advice is; depends on who you want to play. I would suggest starting as a western European feudal ruler, so you can learn the "base" gameplay before you branch into the variants of the gameplay.

Cosmetic DLC is the easiest to say "don't bother" with, at least if the specific culture the DLC is for doesn't bother you have generic faces. You can ignore the 4 Dynasty Shields, as mods cover that anyhow. The game comes with Arab and Western European faces,. I would recommend adding Mongol and African portraits. Otherwise, you can get the Russian, Mediterranean aka Greek, Norse, Celtic, Early Western, Early Eastern, Iberian, Finno-Ugric, and Late Byzantine to replace European faces, and Turkish, Persian, Cuman, South Indian, and East African to replace the Arab faces.
The Unit Pack replaces the models for armies for the different cultures, same dealio.
Music DLC is also only if you want some extra tunes. At first you probably won't need it while the original music is still fresh.

The Expansion DLC is a little more mixed.
Sword of Islam is only worth it if you want to play as Muslims.
Legacy of Rome is probably worth it, because later features assume you have the Retinues standing army feature for balance. Otherwise it just adds some minor features to the Byzantines, but you can play as them without it.
Sunset Invasion is only worth it if you want to play with ahistorical Aztec invasion.
The Republic is only worth it if you want to play as a Merchant Republic (Genoa, Venice, Pisa, the Hansa, etc, etc)
The Old Gods is only worth it if you want to play the 867 start date (Viking invasion of England, Viking settlement of Russia, pre-formation of France or HRE, Umayyads in Spain, Abbasids in the Middle East), or want to play as pagans or Zoroastrians.
Sons of Abraham unlocks playing as Jews. Good luck. Also adds a pile of Christian religious features, including the College of Cardinals. I'd say ignore, there are only maybe 2 or 3 Jewish starts anyhow.
Rajas of India is only worth it if you want to play as Jains, Hindus, or Buddhists.
Charlemagne is only worth it if you want to play the 769 start (rise of Charlemagne, a bunch of other stuff). I wouldn't recommend it, as 769 is mostly fantasy characters, and my favourite mods don't support it. Also allows you to play as the Zunists if you also have The Old Gods, who are Afghani pagans.
Way of Life I would get. Adds lots of roleplaying mechanics and new personal diplomacy options like dueling, seduction, and such-like.
Horse Lords I would only get if you want to play as a Nomad. If you don't have the DLC, I BELIEVE you can still play as the steppe nomads, but they have Tribal government instead of Nomadic, basically acting the same as the Vikings or other pagans.
Conclave I would recommend, but this is a controversial choice. It adds a whole pile of internal politics features, where your most powerful vassals will desire seats on your council, and your council can restrict your actions if you can't keep them weak or, at least, happy. You can get Favors from or towards others, which you or others can call in to force people to do things you want, like vote on a specific law. It constrains blobbing. Some people don't like it because they feel it's making the game harder for no reason. I like it because it makes the game harder for historical reasons.
Reapers Due I would recommend, because otherwise the Black Plague is barely worth sneezing at (ahaha). Though the whole "hospital" mechanic is terribly a-historical but oh well.
I'm not sold on Monks and Mystics, the upcoming DLC yet. The general concept of joining more organized monastic societies is good. The weird way they're including Demon Worshippers working "magic", not so down with. Luckily, they currently have a toggle to shut down events that are too "supernatural" when you start a new game. Also will add an Item system, which is gonna be cool, and VERY excited to see modders expand that.

I would also recommend the Historical Immersion Project once you have a game or two under you belt, especially the Somewhat More Historical Map. I can't go back. I am slightly biased, considering some of HIP includes my own work, though.

[Aotrs Commander]

But for the love of [insert beloved thing here] buy it on sale. Crusader Kings 2 is ending its lifetime and there is an awful lot of dlc.

Worth repeating.

Do NOT buy it until the next sale (which usually comes fairly frequently, and every time they release a new DLC and one is due soon), typically at -75% off the older stuff and a lesser degree on the more recent two or three. (Humble Bundle had an offer on the collection a day or two ago, but I don't know whether it's still up.)

What you want to do is get the Crusader Kings 2 collection (which usually gets the 75%) off, which gets you the base game and the first seven expansions (and a load of extra noncritical gubbins and the EUIC converter), and then get Way of Life and Charlemange (the next two) (which are usually ditto off), which comes to about £35 quid ($43 at the moment), which is what I did (which is like full price for a base game and as much as I wanted to invest in something I wasn't sure I'd like) and then if you budget stretches to it, some of the other stuff as takes your fancy.

Or again, do what I did and wait for another sale down the line if you decided you want some more toys for it (I did exactly the same thing with EUIV, which was my first PDX Grand Strat, getting it when Mare Nostrum was released (and getting few more bits when Rights of Man came out) - which after some two hundred hours, I felt it had earned it. (Out of the three most recently released expansions, Reaper's due has been very well received, Conclave is somewhat devisive and Horse Lords is more for people who want to play hordes.)

[Flickerdart]

Okay so hypothetically if someone wanted to get started on this (and has no experience with Paradox games other than playing Hearts of Iron II long enough to finish one 1936 game with world conquest years ago in college), do I want to grab as much DLC as possible, get specific DLC, or just start with the base game and grab whatever sounds interesting after I learn it?

As others have said, always buy during a sale, always buy the bundle. Then play Ireland in 1066 and see if the game is for you.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh yeah, I buy everything on sale, especially if it's available digitally, which is basically every PC game these days, or enough I don't have to worry about it.

So basically, for useful gameplay features, as opposed to extra "playable characters" and different time scenarios:

1) Legacy of Rome
2) Way of Life
3) Sons of Abraham if I want to mess around with a more detailed Papacy? Maybe? Or forsake ham for Hard Mode.
4) Maybe save Conclave for when I'm good at the game?
5) Reaper's Due perhaps with the same caveat

2 of the 5 are included in the Collection so if I can afford that on sale then maybe I'll look at it, since it also appears to have most of the cosmetic updates, along with a bunch of the scenario/extra playables expansions that could be fun later.

As others have said, always buy during a sale, always buy the bundle. Then play Ireland in 1066 and see if the game is for you.

Okay, so, buy the bundle during a sale, maybe grab other stuff for extra options if they sound cool, sounds good.

I gotta say, Paradox buying out White Wolf never made much sense to me until just now, when I realized that they release DLC in the exact same model that tabletop game publishers release splatbooks, except it's easier to buy things in packages.

[Flickerdart]

Jews aren't really hard mode. As a Jew you start out in either Khazaria (a large, powerful kingdom) or Semien (a duchy surrounded by relatively weak minors).

Zunbils are hard mode. Bulgaria in Old Gods start is hard mode. West African pagans are hard mode. Ireland in Old Gods start is hard mode.

[Aotrs Commander]

Then play Ireland in 1066 and see if the game is for you.

You can, of course, just jump into Bzantium to re-form the Roman Empire as your first game *cough*cough*, or anything between, but this will probably require a lot of reading up first and probably some questions on forums. (Though I gather you have played EUIV, Nerd-o-rama? That at least gives you a foot in the door.)




Note also that you can enabledindividual DLC, and further the game rules allow you enabled or disable certain things. (E.g., it is much less hassle to have Sunset Invasion enabled and just turn the Azrec Invasion off in the game rules i you don't want it, for example.)



The collection comes with all the expansions except Way of Life (highly recommended, as mentioned, as it gives your character more stuff to do), Charlamagne (prinicpally earlier start date), and Horse Lords (for playing hordes)/Conclave (devisive, since it is a difficulty hike because of the council and a different education system) /Reaper's Due (plagues, possible immortality (if you have supernatural events turned on) - very well recieved.)

Myself, I have everything but Conclave, having picked up Horse Lords when Reaper's Due came out (and all the rest the first time).

[Flickerdart]

You can, of course, just jump into Bzantium to re-form the Roman Empire as your first game

Well technically yes, but you are unlikely to get far. Without skillful vassal mastery, understanding of the various CBs available against Christians, Muslims, Pagans, and Republics, understanding of levies/ships/retinues/mercenaries, and good old fashioned money printing, a Byzantium run from any start date is likely to go historically (AKA disastrously).

[Rockphed]

Well technically yes, but you are unlikely to get far. Without skillful vassal mastery, understanding of the various CBs available against Christians, Muslims, Pagans, and Republics, understanding of levies/ships/retinues/mercenaries, and good old fashioned money printing, a Byzantium run from any start date is likely to go historically (AKA disastrously).

I'm pretty sure that you really do need Legacy of Rome to properly play as the ERE. Speaking of, why doesn't it call itself the Eastern Roman Empire?

[Flickerdart]

I'm pretty sure that you really do need Legacy of Rome to properly play as the ERE.

More content is always more better, but aside from Mend the Great Schism and Restore the Roman Empire, I don't think you really lose anything except unique events.

Speaking of, why doesn't it call itself the Eastern Roman Empire?

"Both "Byzantine Empire" and "Eastern Roman Empire" are historiographical terms created after the end of the realm; its citizens continued to refer to their empire as the Roman Empire (Greek: Βασιλεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων, tr. Basileia tôn Rhōmaiōn; Latin: Imperium Romanum),[3] or Romania (Ῥωμανία), and to themselves as "Romans".[4]"

[Aotrs Commander]

Well technically yes, but you are unlikely to get far. Without skillful vassal mastery, understanding of the various CBs available against Christians, Muslims, Pagans, and Republics, understanding of levies/ships/retinues/mercenaries, and good old fashioned money printing, a Byzantium run from any start date is likely to go historically (AKA disastrously).

Spoiler

Show

Does that count as "not getting very far" or "distasterous" then...?

(Granted, it took a couple of brief false starts (of an hour or two), I am playing on Easy, but first game and all that...)

Started in 769, obviously. (As I said, started out with Collection + Way of Life + Charmagne, then later added Reaper's Due (on release) and horse Lords and (compatibility pending, Monks & Mystics).)

[SZbNAhL]

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually likes Sunset Invasion? It kicks in just as pushing the Reconquista as far south as Mali gets boring and adds a fun "the world is ending and only you can stop it" event chain that I really need as a moral pick-me-up after murdering my brothers for their thrones, betraying my son the King of France to be torn apart by Germanic hordes and then brutally and systematically persecuting the Muslim population of Iberia. Sure, it's ahistorical, but so's the English conquest of Denmark, the Crusade to remove the Cathars from Pisa and the Norse sacking of Jerusalem.

[Malimar]

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually likes Sunset Invasion? It kicks in just as pushing the Reconquista as far south as Mali gets boring and adds a fun "the world is ending and only you can stop it" event chain that I really need as a moral pick-me-up after murdering my brothers for their thrones, betraying my son the King of France to be torn apart by Germanic hordes and then brutally and systematically persecuting the Muslim population of Iberia. Sure, it's ahistorical, but so's the English conquest of Denmark, the Crusade to remove the Cathars from Pisa and the Norse sacking of Jerusalem.

I like it because it shakes things up in Western Europe. Each playthrough needs a good shaking-up periodically or it gets stale. This is the main problem with India: nothing ever happens there.

[Flickerdart]

Does that count as "not getting very far" or "distasterous" then...?

(Granted, it took a couple of brief false starts (of an hour or two), I am playing on Easy, but first game and all that...)

Easy + restarting gets you pretty far, but learning the ropes in Ireland gets you further.

[Aotrs Commander]

Easy + restarting gets you pretty far, but learning the ropes in Ireland gets you further.

I've got 45% of the game left to go, an immortal ruler, a rapidly-converting to Miaphisite empire... I think I'm pretty much going to achieve my objectives (which were, in no particular order, become immortal, form Rome, convert ready for Coptic in EUIV, take all coasts) before I roll into EUIV. (There is still a slim but finite chance I might have to ease back, so I don't take too much before I hit EUIV...)

So I think I'm doing fine.

I am positive I wouldn't nearly have gotten as far as I have, had I not started as I did.

[Leecros]

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually likes Sunset Invasion? It kicks in just as pushing the Reconquista as far south as Mali gets boring and adds a fun "the world is ending and only you can stop it" event chain that I really need as a moral pick-me-up after murdering my brothers for their thrones, betraying my son the King of France to be torn apart by Germanic hordes and then brutally and systematically persecuting the Muslim population of Iberia. Sure, it's ahistorical, but so's the English conquest of Denmark, the Crusade to remove the Cathars from Pisa and the Norse sacking of Jerusalem.

Not only do I like Sunset Invasion, but I wish they would make more silly "What If?" DLC. I understand why other people may not like it. However, I find that i play Crusader Kings II for the emergent storytelling far more than i play it for the "Historically Plausible" Grand Strategy/Breeding Simulator. Honestly CKII has never been that Historically Plausible to begin with. Even in its heyday where we only got 400 years and two empire titles, I was forging a realm that spanned most of Europe.

I find playing as the descendants of the Immortal God-Emperor Saoshyant. Who saved the faithful Zoroastrians in their time of need, but ended up not being as immortal as he seemed is far more enjoyable than the map-painting simulator that most Paradox games turn into.