Crusader Kings II Thread IV: Time to Create a New Title

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also there's a certain element of "oh yeah, let's see how you handle it" to Western Europe getting swarmed by invading hordes from another continent at roughly the same time Eastern Europe is dealing with Genghis Khan. I figure it makes for an interesting scenario flip.

Ugh this game is conceptually addicting, though. I don't even own it and I'm already fantasizing about turning the "tutorial island" start into a united Celtic Britannian Empire and then crusading everywhere for fortune and glory. Or later when I've actually practiced, playing a succession of crusading queens-regnant uniting Europe under glorious egalitarian Catharism.

[Flickerdart]

Also there's a certain element of "oh yeah, let's see how you handle it" to Western Europe getting swarmed by invading hordes from another continent at roughly the same time Eastern Europe is dealing with Genghis Khan. I figure it makes for an interesting scenario flip.

The way it usually gets handled is that the Pope calls a crusade for France, and the player now has France in addition to his original lands (in my case, Jerusalem > Arabia). Unlike the real hordes, Aztecs peter out very quickly.

Ugh this game is conceptually addicting, though. I don't even own it and I'm already fantasizing about turning the "tutorial island" start into a united Celtic Britannian Empire and then crusading everywhere for fortune and glory. Or later when I've actually practiced, playing a succession of crusading queens-regnant uniting Europe under glorious egalitarian Catharism.

Britannia is the best place to do a heresy run. Except the mechanics are weird. When you are Cathar but there is no Cathar pope, you can make an Antipope anyway...and when you conquer Rome and install a Cathar pope, your Antipope is still an Antipope.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Britannia is the best place to do a heresy run.

Well, it worked for Henry VIII, just not in the timeframe of this game.

[SZbNAhL]

I would like, if I may, to tell the story of my son, Prince Lochlann of Wales, the greatest AI character I have ever seen.

Lochlann was born at a difficult time. As the female ruler of Wales (and Ireland and part of Scotland) I was disliked by my vassals and always one bad decision away from being England's chew-toy. Forgetting to renew my non-aggression pact with the English throne when King Robert the Old died was one such decision. Fighting off a much larger force while trying to find someone, anyone, who would ally with me (or find a source of funds for mercs) was a little distracting, so when my average-stats ambitious heir came of age I just gave him a duchy and forgot about him.

A few years later, having white-peaced England with the help of my new in-laws the Dukes of Toulouse, Portugal and The Isles, I was minding my own business putting down a gavelkind rebellion when I glanced down and noticed that part of my territory had turned white. "Darnit," I thought "somebody's gone and left their land to someone in the HRE. Should have been watching the alerts for a "problematic inheritance". Now I'll never get Powyss back". Then I checked who it was.

Lochlann had become the Holy Roman Emperor.

Also, the title's now under primogeniture succession. According to the history tab, this was Lochlann's doing. I don't think I've ever seen a non-elective HRE before, but that might just be because I never really check.

[Rockphed]

I would like, if I may, to tell the story of my son, Prince Lochlann of Wales, the greatest AI character I have ever seen.

Lochlann was born at a difficult time. As the female ruler of Wales (and Ireland and part of Scotland) I was disliked by my vassals and always one bad decision away from being England's chew-toy. Forgetting to renew my non-aggression pact with the English throne when King Robert the Old died was one such decision. Fighting off a much larger force while trying to find someone, anyone, who would ally with me (or find a source of funds for mercs) was a little distracting, so when my average-stats ambitious heir came of age I just gave him a duchy and forgot about him.

A few years later, having white-peaced England with the help of my new in-laws the Dukes of Toulouse, Portugal and The Isles, I was minding my own business putting down a gavelkind rebellion when I glanced down and noticed that part of my territory had turned white. "Darnit," I thought "somebody's gone and left their land to someone in the HRE. Should have been watching the alerts for a "problematic inheritance". Now I'll never get Powyss back". Then I checked who it was.

Lochlann had become the Holy Roman Emperor.

Also, the title's now under primogeniture succession. According to the history tab, this was Lochlann's doing. I don't think I've ever seen a non-elective HRE before, but that might just be because I never really check.

I bow to the greatness of your son. I have actually been doing the opposite: keeping a pact with France and HRE and chewing on England. Well, almost. I need to put down a pretty massive gavelkind rebellion (so many vassals are getting their titles revoked when I win) and beat back England's current attempt to take a county out of my capital duchy (which I only took back from them like 10 years ago). I also need to figure out how to get the castle they built in that county into my desmense and move my capital. Then I can take back the last county in Wales proper. Maybe I will destroy Ireland and Scotland and let their lands join Wales. I also need to figure out how to get my daughter matri-married. I have primogeniture on all my titles, but my current character has only had 2 daughters and is getting up there in age.

As for Lochlann, please tell me you got an alliance with him and have now taken territory from England.

[The Great Wyrm]

Now you just need to make sure he's your heir. (Imprison and execute all your children born before him, maybe?)

[Leecros]

(Imprison and execute all your children born before him, maybe?)

"We don't do assassinations. We have 'happy accidents'."


I know, I know. You can't assassinate your direct children.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So I tried out the demo and for something that seems so dedicated to sensory overload with no direction, this is really addictive. Made it through a full 20 years as the Duke and later King of Bohemia amd didn't embarass myself even.

Even managed to Ozai my ambitious son there:

*like a day after I create the Kingdom of Bohemia*
Prince whatshisname: I'm Duke now, dad, hand it over.
Me: Okay. I'm still King though so guess who's still in charge.

Also I learned you shouldn't form a Kingdom until you've done everything you wanted to as a duke because it starts your regnal timers over. Complete with a spiffy -20 opinion hit from all your vassals for a short reign. They missed the part where I'm more powerful now apparently.

Still hazy on alliances though. I started off married to the Princess of Poland and never could call him in as an ally, but marrying my daughter to the Duke of Holland worked fine.

Also also learned that ransoms can be fun and profitable, especially in a big empire when you're going to catch someone in an assassination plot and throw them in the dungeon for free eventually.

[Eldan]

I might be at one of those points where I'm too powerful to have much fun. As in, we're around the year 1050, I've united Persia few generations ago and the third Zoroastrian Crusade for Greece finally succeeded, though I'm still not sure how. I'm too rich now and have too many men, basically. I stomp all over pretty much anyone. The Byzantines now are pretty much four separate kingdoms with a nominal Emperor (Crimea, Serbia, Egypt and Anatolia), the Arabian Caliphate is a joke that holds half of Syria and a small bit of Arabia proper, there's no large steppe horde anymore and half of them are Manichaen or Zoroastrian anyway and there's no one big in Europe at all. The only other really major nation left is the Caliphate of Hispania, who do occasionally call Jihad on me, but never manage the landings.

I might wait for the mongols a bit, but otherwise, this feels like I'm looking at four hundred years of mopping up. I mean, there's some lands left to conquer if I want everything that was ever Persian, the Achaemenids had Anatolia, Crimea and Egypt, which I don't, and the Sassanians had Arabia, but it feels pointless now.

[Flickerdart]

I might wait for the mongols a bit, but otherwise, this feels like I'm looking at four hundred years of mopping up. I mean, there's some lands left to conquer if I want everything that was ever Persian, the Achaemenids had Anatolia, Crimea and Egypt, which I don't, and the Sassanians had Arabia, but it feels pointless now.

Start giving away lands to relatives. We had a great LP once where we tried to land relatives on the thrones of Europe, and then switched to them whenever the current ruler got too strong.

[Eldan]

Hm. Would need some work. I currently have Seniority succession. But good idea.

Might make Greece independent anyway, it's annoying to administrate with no good way to get to it except the Black Sea. Also, my vassal Shahs keep conquering pointless bits of Steppe in Tartaria.

[Rockphed]

So I keep having a bug where the game crashes. It doesn't happen at the same time every time, but it is making my progress through a gavelkind revolt slow. One time I captured the revolt leader (and was about to force his surrender), when the game crashed. I am 1300 in the hole money-wise and my current ruler is an imbecile (so my diplomacy is currently -1, though my martial is 9). What sort of information would make a bug-report most effective? I suspect that some event is firing because I am over 1000 in the hole that isn't actually active because I have no DLC, but I don't know how to diagnose the problem otherwise.

[tyckspoon]

Still hazy on alliances though. I started off married to the Princess of Poland and never could call him in as an ally, but marrying my daughter to the Duke of Holland worked fine.

Also also learned that ransoms can be fun and profitable, especially in a big empire when you're going to catch someone in an assassination plot and throw them in the dungeon for free eventually.

In the current version of the game marrying somebody's house just gives you a non-aggression agreement with them. You have to take a separate diplomatic action (right-click their portrait, should be in the options there) to request a full alliance. The computer likes to try to call you into wars you don't really have any business in, tho, which can end poorly - either you refuse and wreck your relationship with them, lose prestige, and take an opinion hit with practically everybody for failing to honor the alliance, or you agree. And then you probably wind up stuck 'at war' for the next 40 years even if you don't actually send any troops over, because the AI is absolutely terrible at conducting war and doesn't know how to win them. I've spent some time trying to assassinate my 'ally' and/or the war target before just to get out of the war state and change a law.

I might wait for the mongols a bit, but otherwise, this feels like I'm looking at four hundred years of mopping up. I mean, there's some lands left to conquer if I want everything that was ever Persian, the Achaemenids had Anatolia, Crimea and Egypt, which I don't, and the Sassanians had Arabia, but it feels pointless now.

Tag switch to somebody else for a while, build a new empire, and see if you can take down your Persians and/or go back to the Persians and see if you can recover from whatever disaster the AI wrought on it in the last 50 years. Although it sounds like you may have gotten it past the tipping point where not even AI incompetence can really break it.. might have to do something silly like put it on Ultimogeniture or Seniority succession before you leave it

[Flickerdart]

might have to do something silly like put it on Ultimogeniture or Seniority succession before you leave it

Hm. Would need some work. I currently have Seniority succession. But good idea.

Mischief managed.

[Malimar]

That's my usual modus operandi: when I get bored of one nation in a game, I switch to another until I'm bored of them, and by then the AI has usually wrecked my first nation so much that it's an interesting challenge to put it back together again.

Except in one of my games I've been too effective at creating or taking over almost every empire and putting my dynasty in charge of all of them, so there's no untouched patches of land left to switch to. Oops.

[tyckspoon]

Except in one of my games I've been too effective at creating or taking over almost every empire and putting my dynasty in charge of all of them, so there's no untouched patches of land left to switch to. Oops.

Find the one who is Ambitious/Cruel/a Kinslayer and roleplay being That One ******* who wants to be Emperor of Everything and doesn't mind if he has to stomp down his own family to do it? Console-trigger the Spawn of Satan event chain and run that character for a bit? Try to get the Satan-spawn to be Pope, and then create a 'heretical' character with the Jesus Gives Military Advice modifier and depose the devil-pope in favor of an anti-pope?

[Flickerdart]

One other thing you can do is switch to your original nation's greatest rival, and try to defend against the juggernaut that you yourself created!

[Eldan]

Tag switching might be the thing. Europe is an utter powerless mess. I mean, Cechy is the largest realm in Europe. There's not a single Empire that's Catholic, and they are overrun by heretics.

[Flickerdart]

Tag switching might be the thing. Europe is an utter powerless mess. I mean, Cechy is the largest realm in Europe. There's not a single Empire that's Catholic, and they are overrun by heretics.

Sounds like a job for Polan!

[Eldan]

There's probably more Cathars and Waldensians now than Catholics, so yeah.

Okay, I'm convinced. Setting Greece free as a Persian-ruled realm (they'll probably fall to revolutions pretty quickly without Persian intervention), then playing someone in central Europe to reunite them.

[Rockphed]

So, things I learned last night:

1. The ERE is a 2 ton gorilla even after losing Anatolia. Technically I learned that a couple days ago when I started from the Alexiad as the Basileous, but I can pretty much take land from anyone I care to attack.
2. The Seljuk is a 5 ton gorilla. I'm not sure the best way to break his empire, but he has about 2 times as many troops as I do. I think it is about 20K (with the varangian guard) to 36K. He recently conquered one of the Caliphs (who I was thinking about taking Alexandria from). On the other hand, he tends to be a bit distracted, so a quick set of seiges and judicious attacking of his forces can win the day. I now control all of Georgia because I took land from him.
3. If you are going to try to take things from your enemies in war, do the things that won't get all the sunnis involved first, then do the holy wars. I declared war on Rum and a claim Rum rebellion and an Independence revolt. Two of them did not end in my favor (though they ended inconclusively because the Claim Rum guy won) and I barely had time to assault the last two holdings and force a surrender before Persia and Rum got their acts together and prevented me from taking the last duchy. I think I can salvage taking a duchy off Rum and a county off the guy who used to be Rum.
4. Never fight "rebels" in opponent territory unless you really need to. There are still 3 or 4 counties owned by the guy who used to be Rum because they were held by rebels when the peace went down.
5. Born to the Purple is either awesome or horrible. On the one hand, it is a nice opinion boost with vassals. On the other, the guy I was grooming as my heir was supplanted by my BttP child of my 16 year old second wife.

So, quick question: I have a vassal with a pushable claim on one of the Sicilian duchies. Do I do that or push my brother's claim on a duchy in Rum first? Sicilian duchy is about 7 Provinces, Rum duchy is 2. I should probably start by demanding conversion of that vassal either way.

[TheFallenOne]

In the current version of the game marrying somebody's house just gives you a non-aggression agreement with them. You have to take a separate diplomatic action (right-click their portrait, should be in the options there) to request a full alliance. The computer likes to try to call you into wars you don't really have any business in, tho, which can end poorly - either you refuse and wreck your relationship with them, lose prestige, and take an opinion hit with practically everybody for failing to honor the alliance, or you agree. And then you probably wind up stuck 'at war' for the next 40 years even if you don't actually send any troops over, because the AI is absolutely terrible at conducting war and doesn't know how to win them. I've spent some time trying to assassinate my 'ally' and/or the war target before just to get out of the war state and change a law.

Yeah, that's especially annoying because being at war blocks you from doing some important things.

In my current game - chief of Burgundaholmr(who can resist having your dynasty named Hammer?) becoming king of Lithuania - I was stuck in an endless conquest of Finland declared by my former liege. He lost, but was stuck at -70-80% and the Finns never moved their 5k stack out to counterattack. Only way for me to put an end to it was to hire the Finnish Band(heh) and suicide them twice against the enemy to finally reach -100% warscore.

[Rockphed]

Yeah, that's especially annoying because being at war blocks you from doing some important things.

In my current game - chief of Burgundaholmr(who can resist having your dynasty named Hammer?) becoming king of Lithuania - I was stuck in an endless conquest of Finland declared by my former liege. He lost, but was stuck at -70-80% and the Finns never moved their 5k stack out to counterattack. Only way for me to put an end to it was to hire the Finnish Band(heh) and suicide them twice against the enemy to finally reach -100% warscore.

Did Finland not control the war-target? Most wars, in my experience, go poorly for attackers who cannot siege and hold at least part of the war target because if either side holds all of the target they get a creeping war-score (about 1.25% a month) and eventually reach 100%.

[SZbNAhL]

Is there a known bug or something where you get booted from factions as they trigger?

For context, I'm the Duke of Burgundy* and desperately need to lower crown authority** so that I can attack someone who isn't either the HRE or half-way across Europe***. Twice now I've joined factions to this end, but when they trigger I return to being a loyal vassal of the king instead of joining the rebels.

I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I can't tell what it is and there doesn't seem to be anything on the wiki.

*Got bored smashing up Western Europe as the HRE/Britannia and restarted as a French count to get some experience of being a vassal.
**Haven't got around to buying Conclave yet; waiting for a sale.
***The HRE owns Spain. Yes, all of Spain. Don't ask.

[Flickerdart]

***The HRE owns Spain. Yes, all of Spain. Don't ask.

That's probably the most historical thing that's ever happened in CK2.

[Nerd-o-rama]

That's probably the most historical thing that's ever happened in CK2.

Few centuries early, but it's not like the Habsburgs invented marrying into royal lineages.

[Rockphed]

That's probably the most historical thing that's ever happened in CK2.

My current game, I am Basileous, king of Greece and Cumania. My cousin (and vassal) is king of Hungary and Poland. One of these days I need to get Croatia into the ERE (rather than just ruled by my family), and I just matri-married my sister to the heir of France. Sicily, Georgia, Syria, and Alania are also my vassals. When not in a civil war, I have more than 40,000 vassal levies to raise. I should maybe try putting a relative on the HRE.

I also keep taking land from the Seljuks, but they refuse to shatter. They have also dejure drifted most of Syria and all of Egypt into Persia. It doesn't help that every time they are in the midst of a civil war a civil war pops up for me. And then 3 years and 30,000 dead rebel troops later I get to revoke a couple counties from the rebels. The last war I got cocky and marched a 9K stack into a 10K stack somewhere in Georgia and so ended up with less than 100% war score by the time I had finished off their army and retaken any holdings they had sieged down. I think the war before that triggered right after I attacked Rus for Torki. Then a couple weeks later the Sunni Caliph decided to do a holy war for Azerbaijan. Once I had mopped up the rebels (hooray for having lots of coastline), I was at -68% vs Rus and -20% vs the Caliph. Fixing that took about a year.

I am slowly turning the tribal holdings in Cumania into castles. Slowly. Also, replacing the vassals with more loyal greeks. It is 1208. I expect Ghengis Khan to show up any day now.

[Eldan]

I tried a humble start this time. Very humble. Hit random a few times, ended up as the Count of Kernev in Brittany in the Charlemagne start.

Four generations later, my one county has become THREE mighty counties. However, I have a daughter, sister or aunt married to every king in Europe.

And yet, I'm having more fun than I had as the Persian Empire.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I always find low-level low-ambition games more fun. Becomes more about characters and less gamism.

[Rockphed]

I always find low-level low-ambition games more fun. Becomes more about characters and less gamism.

I liked my start as a petty king in Wales (though I used gamism to my advantage to get all of Ireland under my thumb in one fell swoop) because my need to understand what is going on grew with my slowly growing kingdom. I also liked starting as the ERE because I could pounce on my enemies almost right off the bat. I think my next game will be a 1 county start somewhere in either England or France. HRE has too much weirdness going on.