[THEORY] Girard Draketooth: Gish?

[danielxcutter]

(Note: For those unfamiliar with D&D lingo, a gish is the term for characters who are good at both magic and physical combat. Eldritch Knight is a good example.)

This is just a bit of fridge logic I had a little while ago, so don't judge me too hardly.

We know that Girard was primarily a Sorcerer specializing in illusions. However, he also had two levels in Ranger - and considering that he's been shown holding twin scimitars, he chose the Two-Weapon-Fighting combat style. In particular, this one implies that he had at least some melee combat ability, since if he'd been a squishy caster he'd have been staying faaaaar away from the frontlines. I'm not sure if he took levels in a prestige class such as Eldrich Knight or Abjurant Champion, if he took an alternative class feature such as Battle Sorcerer, or if he just stuck with Ranger 2/Sorcerer X(which is still enough for multiple attacks). However, I am sure that he was at least okay at physical combat.

Do you think so too?

[KillingAScarab]

I like the ideas behind Girard, but I don't know much about how to implement them into the character we see in the comic. Class and level geekery thread might have something on what levels were reached by the Order of the Scribble, but without going into that, I would consider that the more sorcerer levels Girard had the sooner he could have received epic level bonus feats. Perhaps he used (Tenser's/Mage's) transformation when he fought. Perhaps he was just that good of an illusionist that people thought he was a good front-line fighter; what if he never even had real swords?

[NerdyKris]

The Heroes calendar seems to imply that he uses a combination of stealth and illusions when fighting. I don't think pulling out swords in a fight means he's a primary melee character. I think concept wise, he's similar to Elan's Dashing Swordsman. Not a tank, but still on the front lines. I don't think adding prestige classes is necessary. We know the Order of the Stick isn't optimized, so why assume the Scribble is?

[Snails]

Girard is a weird character who does not fit neatly into any classic 3e build.

It seems that he eventually had access to epic level magic. I would guess the Scribblers were 20something level, more likely shaded towards the small end. That hints that he could not have had many Ranger levels.

But why get into the scimitars is a hard one to figure out. After all, if he is not superb meleeist, isn't it easier to deal with mooks with spells? Isn't that the point of Sorcerors?

Of course, it is easy to imagine that Girard took two levels in Ranger early in life, before his full Draconic powers awakened in him. There was no plan that made sense, after the fact. People in the OotSverse are not really optimized with "builds" in the sense usually used on forums.

What I think: Girard does not fit into any ruleset, at all. He is an illusionist, because the Giant liked the 1e Illusionist class. He is a Ranger, because the Giant liked the 2e Ranger and it gives a distinctive aggressive appearance when drawn in comic. He has Epic magic, 'cuz the story demanded that. He is Draconic, 'cuz that fit the story, and the Giant thought the backstory for Draconics worked for an ornery and physically aggressive spellcaster.

I do have an "almost" simple guess: Girard is a houseruled 1e/2e style "gestalt" multiclass human, that has been fudged to fit into newer rulesets. So he is really some like a (22 hit dice) Ranger22/Sorceror22, in a party with average level 24.

[hroþila]

It seems that he eventually had access to epic level magic.

Did he, though? His most powerful spell we get to see was not epic, according to the Giant in this forum.

[Snails]

Did he, though? His most powerful spell we get to see was not epic, according to the Giant in this forum.

I did not see that comment by the Giant. It is a fair question. There is no logical necessity that Girard has epic magic.

I would say that his explosive trap in the dessert seemed to me to be a low epic level effect, given that it appeared to be intended to kill an epic level character. OTOH, as it did not kill or knock unconscious a single low-mid teen-leveled Order character, I suppose it could have been a measly 20d6 of damage.

[Jasdoif]

His most powerful spell we get to see was not epic, according to the Giant in this forum.

And from that same post:

I don't see Girard as having taken the Epic Spellcasting feat, simply because that was more Dorukan's shtick. And as a multi-class ranger/sorcerer, he would have gotten access to it later and he's not really the type to spend all his time studying (when he could be out "recruiting" his defensive team).

[NerdyKris]

That hints that he could not have had many Ranger levels.

In comic evidence is that he had only two levels, as he stated after the quest to seal the rifts. So unless he gained more afterwards, that's all he had at the time they split up.

[danielxcutter]

The Heroes calendar seems to imply that he uses a combination of stealth and illusions when fighting. I don't think pulling out swords in a fight means he's a primary melee character. I think concept wise, he's similar to Elan's Dashing Swordsman. Not a tank, but still on the front lines. I don't think adding prestige classes is necessary. We know the Order of the Stick isn't optimized, so why assume the Scribble is?

Yeah, this seems right. Girard doesn't strike me as primarily being a warrior - especially considering the fact that the Scribble had a paladin, a barbarian, and a druid. It seems more in character for him to use his illusions to confuse his enemies and strike when he saw an opening, rather than using buff spells to become a whirlwind of destruction.

Fun fact, there are more parallels between Elan and Draketooth than you'd think. Most of Elan's spells are from the Illusion school, and he's a Charisma-based caster - just like Girard. Both are Chaotic, in contrast to the Lawful Good party leader. Both (probably) are capable of decent melee combat, but that isn't the only thing they have up their sleeve - or even the strongest. Both value(d) family highly. Both use weapons with a high critical range(although this is likely just a coincidence).

[Snails]

Fun fact, there are more parallels between Elan and Draketooth than you'd think. Most of Elan's spells are from the Illusion school, and he's a Charisma-based caster - just like Girard. Both are Chaotic, in contrast to the Lawful Good party leader. Both (probably) are capable of decent melee combat, but that isn't the only thing they have up their sleeve - or even the strongest. Both value(d) family highly. Both use weapons with a high critical range(although this is likely just a coincidence).

Yes, well, they both appear to be the main Trickster of the party, which makes illusions and a more jack-of-all-trades build a fairly logical choice. Tricksters do not have to be Charisma builds, but it is a classic style. As a further parallel, both Scribblers and Stickers appear to have a halfling as a secondary Trickster.

[Snails]

Thanks for the quote, Jasdoif.

That hints that the Scribblers were low epic level, or Girard would eventually have found Epic Spellcasting to be valuable as he climbs levels.

[Kish]

Rich explicitly said they were low-epic, yes. This is why the banana maintains the incredibly useful Index of the Giant's Comments...

...is what I would say, except apparently that particular quote was, for some reason, not recorded there. You can take my word for it, or not, it doesn't matter much.

[Jasdoif]

Rich explicitly said they were low-epic, yes. This is why the banana maintains the incredibly useful Index of the Giant's Comments...

...is what I would say, except apparently that particular quote was, for some reason, not recorded there. You can take my word for it, or not, it doesn't matter much.

Oddly enough, it's the exact same post. Clearly, narrowing the quote down to the relevant part was the wrong call before; so here it is in its entirety:

Hey, thanks for clarifying! Any chance we can get Word of Giant on the spell explicitly being Epic? I thought it was, but it's gotten a little heated for some reason.

It's not Epic, it's simply a 9th-level illusion—since there aren't many 9th-level illusions in core, there's conceptual room for one that is pretty heavy-hitting that would still be way above anything Eugene ever tried. My closest rules-based analogy was Microcosm, which is a 9th level psionic power. This spell doesn't seem to have a hit point limit, but it does offer a possible means of escape through internal realization. Because, you know, story.

I don't see Girard as having taken the Epic Spellcasting feat, simply because that was more Dorukan's shtick. And as a multi-class ranger/sorcerer, he would have gotten access to it later and he's not really the type to spend all his time studying (when he could be out "recruiting" his defensive team). But I don't think it's necessary for it to be explicitly Epic to be "really powerful." We're getting to the point where the difference between the high-level OOTS and the low-epic Order of the Scribble is mostly one of degrees anyway.

[Kish]

Ah, well then! Glad to see it's there.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, well, they both appear to be the main Trickster of the party, which makes illusions and a more jack-of-all-trades build a fairly logical choice. Tricksters do not have to be Charisma builds, but it is a classic style. As a further parallel, both Scribblers and Stickers appear to have a halfling as a secondary Trickster.

Erm... "Trickster"?

[Kish]

Yeah, I'm not seeing a lot of tricksterness in Elan, Belkar, or what little we know of Serini either. The main trickster of OotS is Haley; if I had to pick someone to come second in that area it would be Roy, the spells which Elan can use effectively as long as Vaarsuvius is whispering in his ear aside. If I was picking a third it would be Vaarsuvius.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, I'm not seeing a lot of tricksterness in Elan, Belkar, or what little we know of Serini either. The main trickster of OotS is Haley; if I had to pick someone to come second in that area it would be Roy, the spells which Elan can use effectively as long as Vaarsuvius is whispering in his ear aside. If I was picking a third it would be Vaarsuvius.

I think Snails was talking about their builds, not the characters themselves... but I haven't seen that particular term used that much in this forum either, so I'm still stumped.

And yeah, Elan isn't really a trickster character in terms of personality. Belkar is even less of one.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Trickster archetypes are the people who tend to warp events pretty much by existing in some way, much like Coyote in First Nations myths. So that'd be things like Elan pushing the self-destruct rune in the first book, or Belkar suddenly providing the group with an allosaurus mount in the last one.

[denthor]

Sorcerer his first level spell could have been true strike + 20 automatic to an attack

[Snails]

Trickster archetypes are the people who tend to warp events pretty much by existing in some way, much like Coyote in First Nations myths. So that'd be things like Elan pushing the self-destruct rune in the first book, or Belkar suddenly providing the group with an allosaurus mount in the last one.

Exactly. Tricksters are really a role in the story, more than a particular build or personality. They are catalysts for moving the action rapidly forward in unpredictable way.

Tricksters are usually "tricky", but not all tricky characters are tricksters. Roy and Haley are intelligent and highly competent persons who sometimes use tricks as the means to defeat their opponents, but they are not tricksters.

[Lombard]

I was like.. hmmm wait what does Girard have to do with

[Omnipotent_One]

I'd always imagined Girard to be a Ranger2/Sorcerer8/EldritchKnight11+

It's about as optimized as you can get for a core only Gish. You're only 4 BAB behind a straight ranger and 3 CL behind a straight sorcerer. You manage to get 4 attacks per round by level 20 and you get 9th level sorcerer spells at level 21.

Given that Girard is always shown wielding the two scimitars in combat I'd be very surprised if he were merely a Ranger2/Sorcerer19+. He clearly has levels in some kind of Gish prestige class (and I'm almost sure it's the OGL Eldritch Knight).

[danielxcutter]

I'd always imagined Girard to be a Ranger2/Sorcerer8/EldritchKnight11+

It's about as optimized as you can get for a core only Gish. You're only 4 BAB behind a straight ranger and 3 CL behind a straight sorcerer. You manage to get 4 attacks per round by level 20 and you get 9th level sorcerer spells at level 21.

Given that Girard is always shown wielding the two scimitars in combat I'd be very surprised if he were merely a Ranger2/Sorcerer19+. He clearly has levels in some kind of Gish prestige class (and I'm almost sure it's the OGL Eldritch Knight).

OGL? Sorry, I'm not familiar with that term.

[Omnipotent_One]

OGL? Sorry, I'm not familiar with that term.

Open Game License. Material that is made freely available by Wizards of the Coast for content creators to use. For 3.5 the Core Rulebooks, Epic Level Handbook, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities and Demigods, and Unearthed Arcana are all OGL.

Basically the stuff you can find here: http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

[danielxcutter]

Open Game License. Material that is made freely available by Wizards of the Coast for content creators to use. For 3.5 the Core Rulebooks, Epic Level Handbook, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities and Demigods, and Unearthed Arcana are all OGL.

Basically the stuff you can find here: http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

Oh, I see. Thanks.

[Kish]

Assuming characters in OotS must have optimized in unheralded ways is...well, it's very popular, anyway.

[LeSwordfish]

Wait, hang on - a Gish is just a term for a particular kind of character?

I've been assuming it's a monster for years.

[Jasdoif]

Wait, hang on - a Gish is just a term for a particular kind of character?

I've been assuming it's a monster for years.

If memory serves, "gish" is the term githyanki use for their melee/arcane members. It's since been adopted to describe melee/arcane characters in general.

[Kish]

Thanks. I totally didn't know where the term came from.

[Noodz]

I'll go along with the thread in the storytelling aspect: Rich doesn't really care about mechanical optimization, he just decided Girard was to be a Sorcerer with two Ranger levels (thanks geekery thread) and called it a day.

Now, putting on my optimization hat, there are several reasons why one might get a 2-level ranger dip. Bonus feats are one (track + two weapon fighting), as is martial weapon proficiency. Another one is skill access: taking ranger 1 as char level 1 and ranger 2 at char level 5 can get you 8 ranks in any ranger skill (or even 2 skills), which in turn can open a lot of prestige class doors.

Eldritch knight is an easy one (though a single ranger level would have sufficed). A ranger 2/Sorc 6/ EK 10 would be three levels behind a full caster, significant but still well within the expected of a gish build.

Another PrC that would be a good fit for Girard would be Dragon Disciple. The OGL version does not advance spellcasting, so he can't have taken many levels (he definitely haven't reached DD 9, as that would provide him with dragon wings). But a good optimizer will plead for an adapted version of the Pathfinder DD, which is a lot juicier what with that 3/4 caster level advancement.