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  1. - Top - End - #1231
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Possessed Oracle (archetype from Ultimate Magic) can not take the possessed curse (Horror Realms). While weird, this wouldn't be that unusual since the archetype predates the curse. Problem is Legacy of the First World adds a curse with explicit permission to take it for Possessed Oracle.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Force Missile Mage PrC (Dragon Compendium) doesn't works with actual Force Missile spell (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting), but with Magic Missile. (It's as if there was the Fireball Mage PrC which doesn't worked with actual Fireball, but with Orb of Fire, Lesser!)

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Force Missile Mage PrC (Dragon Compendium) doesn't works with actual Force Missile spell (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting), but with Magic Missile.
    Not really a disfunction, just a bad name. Unless somehow the rules don’t work...

  4. - Top - End - #1234
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Well we have a few "the name is really inappropriate" entries in the handbook. There's been some debate as to whether or not they should be included. Maybe not by the definition in the OP, but I personally don't see it as a big deal.

    EDIT: I guess you could technically file them under "Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense" if you squint.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2019-11-06 at 03:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Creatures have infinite blood.

    So a creature goes unconscious from bleeding damage, but its Cleric buddy casts Delay Death on him. So at this point the creature can bleed every round until Delay Death ends. But it can be cast repeatedly, so the creature can basically bleed forever. Therefore, it has theoretically infinite blood supply.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Couldn't you just as well infer that Delay Death magically replenishes their blood when they would die of blood loss?

  7. - Top - End - #1237
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    No equivalent spell levels for Corrupting Blast and Healing Blast. (Class Features of Eldritch Disciple)

    Corrupting Blast and Healing Blast work as eldritch essence. But the equivalent spell levels are not given.
    If I want to maximize a Healing Blast without blast shape, what should be its equivalent spell level? Still 1st level?
    But even the least eldritch essences are equivalent to 2nd level spells.
    Last edited by Almostdead; 2019-11-19 at 07:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by EliDupree View Post
    Couldn't you just as well infer that Delay Death magically replenishes their blood when they would die of blood loss?
    Sure, but that implies that the damage from a Bleeding effect is caused strictly by the blood leaving the body and not the effect of blood loss, since damage is still applied every round. This seems odd to me.

    Ruling that Delay Death undoes the killing effect of damage seems problematic with the fact it specifically doesn't stabilize a dying creature regardless of damage type.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Okay, here's an interesting one: underwater combat. Like all of it.

    Article one: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. This includes harpoons and thrown boulders.
    Article two: However, it's entirely possible to fire a composite longbow 1100 feet (or more with far/distant shot), from one point underwater to another point underwater, for full damage. There are so, so many reasons why this doesn't work.
    Article three: Cutting someone with a knife while underwater, however, deals only half damage.
    Article four: But acid works fine in water, unless you throw it. Cold, sonic and electricity are completely unaffected too.
    Article five: Flares do not work in water. Flares are designed to work in water.
    Article six: Creatures can see 4d8*10 feet in clear water and 1d8*10 feet in murky water. No indication of when to roll or how often.
    Article seven: Escaping a fast-flowing river by reaching the bank requires three swim checks, irrespective of distance to said bank.
    Article eight: You may not have line of effect to yourself if you're casting a fire spell while waist-deep in water. It's not totally clear how this works.

  10. - Top - End - #1240
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    article two: if it makes you feel any better, they at least take a -2 attack penalty for every 10 feet traveled.

    article three: it's actually a much funnier circumstance. dagger is slashing or piercing, so depending on grip and attack style you can deal full or half damage.

    article four: do you want sonic to deal less damage in water? if anything, shouldn't it deal more?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    article two: if it makes you feel any better, they at least take a -2 attack penalty for every 10 feet traveled.

    article three: it's actually a much funnier circumstance. dagger is slashing or piercing, so depending on grip and attack style you can deal full or half damage.

    article four: do you want sonic to deal less damage in water? if anything, shouldn't it deal more?
    Article two: For every 5 feet, no less, and on top of the range increment penalty, no less. Shooting from 1100 feet away would rack up a staggering -240 to hit, but a 20 would still do it!

    Article three: This also makes the fact that certain weapons that really should be able to do piercing damage can't even more galling. Also, you can swing a pickaxe just fine underwater, but not an axe axe.

    Article four: If the sonic attack is working like a shockwave, yes, it should deal far more. That's a problem too! For example, the shockwave from a grenade is normally negligible (it's the shrapnel that'll get you) but underwater, it's the shockwave that'll kill you. If, however, it's more of an ear-piercing scream (like the spell ear-piercing scream), then it should flat-out not work.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    If, however, it's more of an ear-piercing scream (like the spell ear-piercing scream), then it should flat-out not work.
    Why do you say that? Sound travels far better through water than air. It's only when it needs to go between the two mediums that water deadens sound.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Numerlogical Evocation is a very poorly designed spell that can't even work right when you're first able to cast it. You have to roll 1d6 per 2 caster levels, and these dice form a pool from which you allocate dice to determine what type(s) of damage the spell deals (including the types "Air" and "Water"), how many targets it can hit (including the initial target), its range, and finally how much damage it deals. That's 4 things that the spell determines from your dice pool. As a 3rd level spell, it first becomes available at level 5, which will give you... 2 dice. To distribute among 4 variables. Each die has to be used exactly once. This spell doesn't work right when you are first able to cast it, although it's such a bad spell that I don't think anybody particularly cares.

    Fortunately the part of the spell for choosing types of damage says that "You can allocate any number of dice in this manner, provided you still have enough dice remaining for the subsequent steps." Since 0 is "any number," you can skip this step. The range also takes any number of dice, but the number of targets requires exactly one die. Since 0 is a number, you get a technically functional spell that lets you do any of the following (and you must do one of them if you're level 5):
    • Don't assign any dice for damage type. Numerological Evocation now can deal typeless damage.
    • Don't assign any dice for range. This is the most functional omission, as it just gives the spell a range of 0. I hope there's somebody else in your square.
    • Don't assign any dice for damage. Congratulations, your damage dealing spell now deals 0 damage.

    If you aren't allowed to put 0 dice into anything, then you have to wait until you're level 8 to be able to deal 1d6 typed damage to 1d6 targets. And this is the same spell level as fireball.

    Admittedly this is mostly just terrible design, but I would say that the following are actual dysfunctions this can cause:
    1. Assigning 2 values into 4 variables
    2. The possibility of dealing Air or Water damage, when those aren't real damage types
    3. The possibility of not having a damage type

  14. - Top - End - #1244
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by HeraldOfExius View Post
    Numerlogical Evocation is a very poorly designed spell that can't even work right when you're first able to cast it. You have to roll 1d6 per 2 caster levels, and these dice form a pool from which you allocate dice to determine what type(s) of damage the spell deals (including the types "Air" and "Water"), how many targets it can hit (including the initial target), its range, and finally how much damage it deals. That's 4 things that the spell determines from your dice pool. As a 3rd level spell, it first becomes available at level 5, which will give you... 2 dice. To distribute among 4 variables. Each die has to be used exactly once. This spell doesn't work right when you are first able to cast it, although it's such a bad spell that I don't think anybody particularly cares.

    Fortunately the part of the spell for choosing types of damage says that "You can allocate any number of dice in this manner, provided you still have enough dice remaining for the subsequent steps." Since 0 is "any number," you can skip this step. The range also takes any number of dice, but the number of targets requires exactly one die. Since 0 is a number, you get a technically functional spell that lets you do any of the following (and you must do one of them if you're level 5):
    • Don't assign any dice for damage type. Numerological Evocation now can deal typeless damage.
    • Don't assign any dice for range. This is the most functional omission, as it just gives the spell a range of 0. I hope there's somebody else in your square.
    • Don't assign any dice for damage. Congratulations, your damage dealing spell now deals 0 damage.

    If you aren't allowed to put 0 dice into anything, then you have to wait until you're level 8 to be able to deal 1d6 typed damage to 1d6 targets. And this is the same spell level as fireball.

    Admittedly this is mostly just terrible design, but I would say that the following are actual dysfunctions this can cause:
    1. Assigning 2 values into 4 variables
    2. The possibility of dealing Air or Water damage, when those aren't real damage types
    3. The possibility of not having a damage type
    I feel like this spell was probably intended to be 1d6 per level (giving 5 dice when you first get it), but then someone decided that it was too powerful and nerfed it down to 1d6 per 2 levels without considering how that would actually break things.

    Edit: Or, perhaps they were trying to say 2d6 per level and just didn't write it properly?
    Last edited by Celestia; 2019-11-26 at 07:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    What I want to know is why the table says it uses d8s, when the spell itself uses d6s. Are you meant to roll d6/2 levels to see how many d8s you get to assign? That seems as though it would make a fairly usable spell, possibly even a strong one (at fifth level, it would allow you to deal 5d8 damage at a range averaging 45 feet). It feels like they left out the part of the spell where it actually works.

    EDIT: Also, the spell can deal water damage which doesn't exist, and mentions earth damage which doesn't exist either.
    EDIT EDIT: Numerological Resistance can provide resistance to earth.
    Last edited by Unavenger; 2019-11-26 at 10:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    EDIT EDIT: Numerological Resistance can provide resistance to earth.
    So... what?... immunity from small amounts of mud & dust? If you jump upband down really hard your feet don't hurt? Can walk across pebbles and small rocks without penalty? Wha?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    What I want to know is why the table says it uses d8s, when the spell itself uses d6s.
    My guess is that they just reused the same "Path of Numbers" table and dice pool mechanic that they had for the other wonky-but-technically-functional things like Mathematical Curse, but they made it use d6s instead to make it look more like Fireball.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    they left out the part of the spell where it actually works.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Missile Mage Prestige Class
    Energy Missile (Ex): A force missile mage becomes intimately attuned to the energies that compose the spell magic missile and may alter them in significant ways. Starting at 2nd level, a force missile mage may add either the acid, cold, electricity, or fire descriptor to any magic missile he casts. The type of energy added to the spell is chosen at the time of casting, and you can choose a different type of energy each time you cast magic missile. This altered descriptor affects all missiles created by a single casting of magic missile. Although still a force spell, any magic missile altered in this way deals additional damage against vulnerable creatures and less damage against creatures with related resistances and immunities.
    This ability adds an energy descriptor to magic missile, but doesn't actually change the kind of damage dealt. It just says resistances and vulnerabilities apply. So, it's not Fire damage, it's Force Damage But Fire Resistance Counts.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    This ability adds an energy descriptor to magic missile, but doesn't actually change the kind of damage dealt. It just says resistances and vulnerabilities apply. So, it's not Fire damage, it's Force Damage But Fire Resistance Counts.
    Although still a force spell, any magic missile altered in this way deals additional damage against vulnerable creatures and less damage against creatures with related resistances and immunities.
    It's pretty clearly intended behavior. I mean, it's super weird, but I wouldn't say it was dysfunctional.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    The Dragon Wings feat from RotD is mostly a pretty reasonable feat, except

    If you become unconscious or helpless while in midair, your wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. You descend in a tight corkscrew and take only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall.
    No matter how close you are to the ground, you take falling damage. Fall from 1 inch up without the feat? You're fine. Fall from 1 inch with the feat? You spiral into 1d6 damage.
    All advice given with the caveat that you know your group better than I do. If that wasn't true, you'd be getting advice face-to-face. So I generalize.

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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellpyre View Post
    The Dragon Wings feat from RotD is mostly a pretty reasonable feat, except ... No matter how close you are to the ground, you take falling damage. Fall from 1 inch up without the feat? You're fine. Fall from 1 inch with the feat? You spiral into 1d6 damage.
    Looks like it'd also make you fall even if someone had been levitating you.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    To be fair, having your "wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them" could add a lot of violent motion that wouldn't be present for someone falling without the feat.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    It's less dysfunctional and more weird, but as I was looking at the tempest PrC (Complete Adventurer) for another discussion, I noticed that the tempest defense feature provides a typeless bonus to AC. (Which, among other things, means that it presumably applies both to flat-footed AC and touch AC, I think.)

    Are there supposed to be typeless bonuses to AC? Are there any others? It's not a true dysfunction because there's nothing stopping it from working, but it's a noticeable break from what had been established as a pattern that seems to be mostly otherwise relatively rigidly adhered to.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    It's less dysfunctional and more weird, but as I was looking at the tempest PrC (Complete Adventurer) for another discussion, I noticed that the tempest defense feature provides a typeless bonus to AC. (Which, among other things, means that it presumably applies both to flat-footed AC and touch AC, I think.)

    Are there supposed to be typeless bonuses to AC? Are there any others? It's not a true dysfunction because there's nothing stopping it from working, but it's a noticeable break from what had been established as a pattern that seems to be mostly otherwise relatively rigidly adhered to.
    The Monk AC bonus is typeless.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    More nitpicky than anything, but...

    The aspect of the wolf spell (from the Spell Compendium) is among those having a M/DF component, meaning it can be cast either as a divine spell with a divine focus, or as an arcane spell with a material component, and it has indeed an arcane material component given at the end of the description.

    Problem is, it's only a Druid or Ranger spell; it doesn't belong on the spell list of any arcane class, making the arcane material component entry pointless.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Here's something that came up in the LA Assignment thread today. A Kaorti (Fiend Folio, pg 108) suffers nonlethal damage when unprotected on the Material Plane. There's a DC15 fortitude save every hour to avoid it, but the DC increases by one every time the save is made, regardless of success.

    The DC never resets by pure RAW. If a Kaorti made ten saves against this damage in one day, then was protected and/or not on the Prime Material for every second of the next ten years of its life, the DC for its next save after all that time would still be 25.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    That's a good one.

    Lurk has ACFs in a Mind's Eye article which are worded poorly. They are placed on the list of lurk augments, despite several being plain class features that don't involve attacks and instead function all the time or while a lurk is focused.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    AFAICT Pathfinder has no penalty for using an inappropriately-sized shield, unless you're bashing with it. Nor could I find any rule forbidding it.

    The tower shield rules don't have any provision for it either, so you can hide behind a comically undersized tower shield.

    Is this an actual omission, or am I missing a source?
    Last edited by Bucky; 2020-04-29 at 02:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I don’t know if this is a rules dysfunction, or just the rules not matching the fluff, but there’s a Setting Sun maneuver in the Tome of Battle called Hydra Slaying Strike. If the hit is successful, the target cannot make a full attack during its next turn. That’s cool and all, but a hydra’s attack and its full attack are the same, so it doesn’t actually do anything to a hydra.

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