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  1. - Top - End - #1141
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    "Each level in a template class increases the character's level adjustment by +1, just as would a level of any other character class."
    Leveling up in a character class (Barbarian, Bard, Monk, etc.) doesn't increase your level adjustment, which either means that all template classes are free (as they don't give you HD nor increase your LA) or they retroactively add +1 LA to every other existing base/prestige class level.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Mindspy is a class which admits that mostly monsters like doppelgangers take it, and the sample character is a doppelganger. Unfortunately, the prerequisites specify that a character must be able to cast detect thoughts or use detect thoughts as a SLA to enter, and doppelgangers have detect thoughts as a supernatural ability. If you were wondering, the sample doppelganger only has 3 levels of sorcerer so cannot cast detect thoughts.
    What makes this even better is in the introductory text we have the line "Because the class relies utterly on detect thoughts, most mindspies are creatures who have it as a spell-like or supernatural
    ability usable at will such as couatls, succubi, doppelgangers, ghaeles, myrmarchs, leonals, mind fl ayers, dark nagas, rakshasas, and green slaadi." Bolded creatures have it as a supernatural instead of SLA. This means that someone working on this class realized that this text would be necessary if they wanted these monsters to be able to enter, but this message did not make it to the right people, so we have this awkward situation.
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  3. - Top - End - #1143
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Well, we already have something like "most example characters are somehow wrong".
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    These may have been mentioned somewhere, but I didn't see them in the handbook. (All for Pathfinder.)

    Various Combat Tricks allow you to bypass ability score prerequisites for their associated feats. Problem is, "During combat, you can spend stamina points from this pool to perform a combat trick, the specific effects of which are dictated by a combat feat you possess." (Emphasis mine.) So you can't benefit from the prerequisite-lifting unless you already possess the feat in the first place, at which point you evidently qualified for it anyway and don't need the bypass, and also they only bother to mention active uses of combat tricks and completely ignore the existence of the passive ones.

    The one thing I can think that might have been intended is that it means you don't lose all your feats if you get hit with Int drain or something, but the combat tricks only allow you to ignore the prerequisites when selecting them, not when benefiting from them.

    And then even if you did somehow benefit from having the prerequisites ignored, you only have the benefits of the feat 'during combat' - which isn't a defined term in any case - which presumably makes qualifying for other feats and PrCs rather interesting, especially if your DM is the type to mandate that you can only level up with some downtime.

    The Combat Trick for Improved Feint allows you to spend 5 stamina points to feint as a move action...which is what you can do just from possessing Improved Feint.

    Not sure if this qualifies or not, but the Greater Feint Combat Trick allows you to feint as a swift action at the cost of making your target flat-footed only against your next attack instead of all attacks made that round. Except feinting doesn't normally make people flat-footed; it denies them their Dex bonus to AC, so the 'drawback' to the combat trick is partially an advantage.

    And then on a non-combat-trick note, the Powerful Wings feat gives you two wing attacks, even if you don't have any wings or indeed any means of flying at all.
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  5. - Top - End - #1145
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    probably someone mentioned it already in this long thread, but I just realized snakes don't have any special defence against tripping, so you can trip a snake just fine.

    How the hell do you trip a snake?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I believe one of the monster manuals clarifies that legless creatures treat the Prone condition differently. You can trip a snake, but succeeding doesn't have much effect... unless something is riding the snake, in which case they need to make the usual Ride check for when a mount is tripped.
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  7. - Top - End - #1147
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I mean, that doesn't seem SO bad. Surely there's some way you could disrupt the movement of a snake, so just refluff it as –

    *checks rules*

    – wait a minute, when you trip the snake, the snake becomes prone ("the character is on the ground… standing up is a move-equivalent action"). Seems like there are a lot of ways a character can be knocked prone regardless of whether they are a snake.

    Seems like there's a few different ways you could interpret the rules:
    1. The snake becomes prone, and can remove the prone condition by spending a move action; "is on the ground" and "stand up" are just flavor
    2. All snakes are perpetually prone and take the associated penalties because they have no particular feature making them immune
    3. "Is on the ground" is the definition of the prone condition and therefore all CHARACTERS who are touching the ground are prone; the ability to stand up as a move action is irrelevant
    4. Snakes are not normally prone, but if they have the prone condition inflicted on them, they can never remove it because they can't stand up
    5. RAI, snakes shouldn't take any penalties for being where they are normally, so the prone condition has no effect on them (they're either always prone or never prone)

    I'm also noticing that there is no particular prohibition on moving at your full speed, or even running, while prone.

    EDIT: That said, I don't see this as much of a dysfunction – just because the rules give you explicit permission to take some action, for instance "running", doesn't mean you can run in conditions where you couldn't normally run, such as running through a wall, or running when you are lying on the ground. In the same way, you could easily rule that tripping a snake is not possible simply because snakes categorically can't be tripped, without having to consult the rules about it.
    Last edited by EliDupree; 2019-02-21 at 01:20 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #1148
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by EliDupree View Post

    EDIT: That said, I don't see this as much of a dysfunction – just because the rules give you explicit permission to take some action, for instance "running", doesn't mean you can run in conditions where you couldn't normally run, such as running through a wall, or running when you are lying on the ground. In the same way, you could easily rule that tripping a snake is not possible simply because snakes categorically can't be tripped, without having to consult the rules about it.
    But that's RAI and/or houseruling.
    Pretty much any disfunction can be fixed with a grain of salt and some minor interpretation/houseruling. there was a famous fallacy about it, though I don't remember the name

    Personally, I'd RAI/houserule that a snake is always prone but it has the racial ability to take no penalties for it because it's its normal state. this would actually leave the snake with a +4 AC against ranged attacks, which actually makes sense, hitting a medium-sized snake with a ranged attack is harder than hitting a man.

    if there is a rule in one of the successive monster manuals about it... probably they realized it and put a patch in place. Sensible thing to do.
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  9. - Top - End - #1149
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I can see where you're coming from, but I think this falls under the case of "when the rules are ambiguous and ONE of the possible interpretations is non-dysfunctional, the rule is not dysfunctional".

    Take, for example, the SRD "actions in combat" page. There's a long list of actions that you can do, but there's not so many explicit statements about the circumstances where you're permitted to do them. For instance, "Making an attack is a standard action." Does this unconditionally give all characters the ability to make an attack whenever they have a standard action available? Does it simply outline what you WOULD do if some OTHER rule gave you general permission to make attacks? Or somewhere in between? If it doesn't give you permission to attack, where's the rule that does? If it DOES give you permission, then doesn't "Most spells require one standard action to cast. You can cast such a spell either before or after you take a move action" give you permission to cast spells regardless of your class?

    I would say, instead, that the "you" in these rules is underspecified – any of the above interpretations MIGHT be a reasonable interpretation, and the same words aren't required to mean the same thing every time they appear. I definitely don't LIKE it when rules are underspecified, but given the open-ended nature of D&D physics, I don't feel like that's a dysfunction – at least, not anywhere near the level of dysfunction as rules that explicitly, unambiguously state something that is unreasonable.

    ...or, maybe my whole second paragraph is actually describing real dysfunctions. I suppose that would also be a reasonable interpretation. :-P

  10. - Top - End - #1150
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Fox and Rabbit (latest printed sources Dragon ## 323 and 341) are both have CR 1/4, and it's not a mere coincidence - both are just refluffed Cat!

    But...

    Aren't foxes supposed to hunt and eat rabbits?

    You may say: "Dragon magazine is goofed again. What's new?"

    Except...

    If we will also disregard two other versions of Fox from different issues of Dragon magazine, then we would be forced to either be restricted to a very special kind of fox - Arctic Fox from the Frostburn -, or refer to the Kingdoms of Kalamar books
    (And Rabbit wasn't printed anywhere else at all!)

  11. - Top - End - #1151
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Fox and Rabbit (latest printed sources Dragon ## 323 and 341) are both have CR 1/4, and it's not a mere coincidence - both are just refluffed Cat!

    But...

    Aren't foxes supposed to hunt and eat rabbits?

    You may say: "Dragon magazine is goofed again. What's new?"

    Except...

    If we will also disregard two other versions of Fox from different issues of Dragon magazine, then we would be forced to either be restricted to a very special kind of fox - Arctic Fox from the Frostburn -, or refer to the Kingdoms of Kalamar books
    (And Rabbit wasn't printed anywhere else at all!)
    I don't have access to either of those issues of Dragon, but why should they be different CRs? Foxes don't always catch their prey, rabbits aren't even always caught by higher CR creatures (like humans). I mean, it's weird that they're considered just as dangerous as kobolds, but both are capable of defending themselves. They just aren't exactly murder machines to humans (and by extension, most humanoids).
    Last edited by Luccan; 2019-04-16 at 12:46 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #1152
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I don't have access to either of those issues of Dragon, but why should they be different CRs? Foxes don't always catch their prey, rabbits aren't even always caught by higher CR creatures (like humans). I mean, it's weird that they're considered just as dangerous as kobolds, but both are capable of defending themselves. They just aren't exactly murder machines to humans (and by extension, most humanoids).
    Considering the fact they're, essentially, a same creature (fluff aside), doesn't it mean rabbit have chance to kill a fox (with a single strike!)

    Also, yes - in D&D 3.X, Cats - and, by extension, Foxes and Rabbits - are "murder machines" who're perfectly capable to kill a 1st-level character

  13. - Top - End - #1153
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Something that someone in another thread pointed out: Flying into the infinite void around the layers of the Nine Hells has a damaging effect on creatures. Extraplanar creatures and outsiders get a save for half damage, others do not. Clearly this was meant for adventurers.

    But.

    Everything gets extraplanar when its not on its native plane. The way its written, the only thing it would affect are non-outsiders native to the Nine Hells.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Feel like this has to have come up already...

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    Yes, okay, it "automatically bites" someone that it uses Improved Grab on and then successfully holds for 2 rounds, but still, that's pretty dumb and an unnecessarily complicated way of writing it. Does make them more dangerous if you tack on a bite attack through feats or class levels, though...
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Okay, okay, all statblocks are wrong. But usually the monsters aren't as bad as the humanoids, and it's difficult for the statblock to be wrong in this specific fashion, so I'm pointing it out anyway.

    Libris Mortis, pp. 118-119. Revived fossil template. Pretty horrifying at low levels, honestly, at least before you've got enough magical firepower to ignore something that's a mindless sack of numbers. Pg. 118 shows the example, a revived fossil megaraptor. 8 HD, CR 10. But... pg. 119 has a table that shows CR based on HD, and it clearly says that a revived fossil with 8 HD is CR 5.

    (I mean, that table is way borked at low levels. Nothing with a d8 natural attack, 1d12 + 10 HP, +9 natural armor, and DR 10/adamantine is realistically CR 1, but that's what happens when you slap the template on a Small thing with 1 HD. Don't even talk about a Medium thing with 1 HD. Like, say, a human. But if we defined "comedically bad CRing" as a dysfunction, we'd be here all night. Regardless, the CR is clearly not in alignment with the stated rules.)
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    The sha'ir gets craft wondrous item at Level 13 as a sort of bonus feat, but can only use it to create an iron flask that can be used to trap a genie.
    The prerequisite spell to create an iron flask is trap the soul, an 8th level spell.

    Now according to the DMG, "if spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)"; depending on how you read the retrieval rules, a sha'ir needs to be at least level 15 or 16 in order to fulfil the prerequisite, so the class gives you an ability that you have to wait sorta 3 levels until you may use it.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    For what it's worth, I recall the video game Temple of Elemental Evil does allow you to trip snakes. You were flipping them upside down. No idea if that would impede a snake though.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    For what it's worth, I recall the video game Temple of Elemental Evil does allow you to trip snakes. You were flipping them upside down. No idea if that would impede a snake though.
    Realistically, yes, they have a definite top and a bottom, and the top doesn't have the structures they use for locomotion. Still rather hard to imagine how one goes about flipping over the sorts of snakes adventurers have to deal with, tho (or at least the ones that are big, hardy, and dangerous enough that you can't either largely ignore them or just one-shot them.)

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    For what it's worth, I recall the video game Temple of Elemental Evil does allow you to trip snakes. You were flipping them upside down. No idea if that would impede a snake though.
    Very definitely. Snakes have a clear top and bottom and want the bottom to be down and are at a serious disadvantage when it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Realistically, yes, they have a definite top and a bottom, and the top doesn't have the structures they use for locomotion. Still rather hard to imagine how one goes about flipping over the sorts of snakes adventurers have to deal with, tho (or at least the ones that are big, hardy, and dangerous enough that you can't either largely ignore them or just one-shot them.)
    Eh, the size modifiers and +4 bonus for unusually stable are supposed to represent exactly that sort of thing. If you can trip a colossal dragon, you can trip a snake too.

    You can argue that snakes should get an extra +2 circumstance bonus, but I really don't see the need for more than that.

  20. - Top - End - #1160
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Very definitely. Snakes have a clear top and bottom and want the bottom to be down and are at a serious disadvantage when it's not.

    Eh, the size modifiers and +4 bonus for unusually stable are supposed to represent exactly that sort of thing. If you can trip a colossal dragon, you can trip a snake too.

    You can argue that snakes should get an extra +2 circumstance bonus, but I really don't see the need for more than that.
    I disagree with this. From a simulationist perspective, I seriously doubt that a snake could be kept on its back for any appreciable amount of time: their flexibility will dampen any momentum you create towards flipping them over, and they'll almost certainly be able to flip back over in a split-second (certainly faster than your spiked chain can swing back around for the follow-up attack). I haven't actually seen this with snakes, but I have seen it with centipedes. Centipedes are actually kind of stiff and clumsy when on their backs, mainly because they tend to spread their legs out straight, so the legs actually kind of get in the way of the centipede trying to flip back over. But they usually still manage to right themselves almost instantaneously.

    Plus, mechanically speaking, the end result of a successful Trip attack is that the target is prone, and there's no mechanical distinction between lying belly-up or belly-down. So arguably, snakes should just be treated as being constantly prone (but having Prone Attack as a bonus feat). Also, none of the weapons that allow Trip attacks would be particularly good at flipping snakes over, so I don't think they should work the same way.

    I think it makes more sense for snakes to be immune to tripping than to try to interpret tripping in some unique way for snakes.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    From a thread on minor creation and oil, it was pointed out that caltrops, and possibly thus burning oil, do damage each time somebody enters a square occupying them. This means that Large creatures take more damage for moving through such spaces, which is the opposite of how large creatures usually react to low-to-the-ground damage sources and certainly different from any other area-type effects. e.g. Ogres do not take more damage from fireball than do, say, gnomes.
    Last edited by Segev; 2019-05-14 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    I disagree with this. From a simulationist perspective, I seriously doubt that a snake could be kept on its back for any appreciable amount of time ...
    Anecdotally, I can say that it's not quick and simple for a snake to flip itself back over. Presumably it varies between species and between individuals. But I've seen a snake unable to right itself for more than one combat round.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Ur-Priest

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    Spell Focus only selects school of magic, not Domain, thus, cannot enter Ur-Priest.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Ur-Priest

    Prerequisite Feat: Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evil)

    Spell Focus on Evil Domain is on a Domain, not a School of Magic
    Spell Focus only selects school of magic, not Domain, thus, cannot enter Ur-Priest.
    Ur-Priest have some dysfunctions, but it isn't one of them: Complete Divine - the very same book Ur-Priest PrC printed in - also expanded the Spell Focus feat - it allow to take Spell Focus (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) which gives +1 DC to spells with relevant alignment descriptor

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Adamantine Spiders (DotU) are weird. They're supposedly 150 pounds of pure adamantine. Which supposedly has a value of 900gp.

    An adamantine suit of full plate costs 15k, not counting the armour cost itself. Adamantine full plate for a medium creature weighs 50 pounds.

    Compounding the issue, in the Draconomicon, there's a segment about making more interesting hordes. One of the items available is adamantine. Which is explicitly given a price of 100gp per pound.

    Yeah... Something weird's gone on there.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    Adamantine Spiders (DotU) are weird. They're supposedly 150 pounds of pure adamantine. Which supposedly has a value of 900gp.

    An adamantine suit of full plate costs 15k, not counting the armour cost itself. Adamantine full plate for a medium creature weighs 50 pounds.

    Compounding the issue, in the Draconomicon, there's a segment about making more interesting hordes. One of the items available is adamantine. Which is explicitly given a price of 100gp per pound.

    Yeah... Something weird's gone on there.
    Not weird. Raw price has to be lower than product price to make profit. Adamantine Spider is the source of Adamantine, so they are price lower than the metal itself.

    Iron ores has to be cheaper than iron sand.
    Copper ores has to be cheaper than copper.
    The same rules apply here.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    The sha'ir gets craft wondrous item at Level 13 as a sort of bonus feat, but can only use it to create an iron flask that can be used to trap a genie.
    The prerequisite spell to create an iron flask is trap the soul, an 8th level spell.

    Now according to the DMG, "if spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)"; depending on how you read the retrieval rules, a sha'ir needs to be at least level 15 or 16 in order to fulfil the prerequisite, so the class gives you an ability that you have to wait sorta 3 levels until you may use it.
    Bumped since no one answered yet.

  28. - Top - End - #1168
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    Tula, Russia
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    Adamantine Spiders (DotU) are weird. They're supposedly 150 pounds of pure adamantine. Which supposedly has a value of 900gp.

    An adamantine suit of full plate costs 15k, not counting the armour cost itself. Adamantine full plate for a medium creature weighs 50 pounds.

    Compounding the issue, in the Draconomicon, there's a segment about making more interesting hordes. One of the items available is adamantine. Which is explicitly given a price of 100gp per pound.

    Yeah... Something weird's gone on there.
    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Not weird. Raw price has to be lower than product price to make profit. Adamantine Spider is the source of Adamantine, so they are price lower than the metal itself.

    Iron ores has to be cheaper than iron sand.
    Copper ores has to be cheaper than copper.
    The same rules apply here.
    FWIW, ship's adamantine armor plating (Dragon #353) costs 5000 gp, and weighs 5000 lb.
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2019-05-30 at 07:57 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #1169
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Male

    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    Bumped since no one answered yet.
    You don’t seem to have asked a question. What answer were you anticipating?
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for Round 17, and we'd love your opinion on the assembled builds!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

  30. - Top - End - #1170
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Beholder

    Join Date
    Jun 2016
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    Schwäbisch Hall
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    You don’t seem to have asked a question. What answer were you anticipating?
    Oh, I guessed that anything posted had to be discussed to check if consensus is given before being added to the handbook. Possibly I've equivocated.

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