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2016-12-09, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Welcome to the 9th incarnation of our grand tradition of pointing out rules in 3.5 and Pathfinder that don't work.
Check the handbook to see if your dysfunction is already there, because we've covered many before.
Previous threads:
"Wait, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
"Wait Again, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Dysfunctional Rules III: 100% Rules-Legal, 110% Silly
Dysfunctional Rules IV: It's Like a Sandwich Made of RAW Failure!
Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata
Dysfunctional Rules VII: Mordenkainen's Dysfunction
Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific
What this thread is for:
- Rules that clearly do something that is pointless or self-abnegating (EG Focused Lexicon is a feat that provides nothing but a penalty, no-one can use Chain Power, Hindering Opportunist helps your enemy).
- Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect (Drown Healing, Greater Reversed Seek the Sky lasts forever, Reversed Mystic Rampart is meant to lower someone's saves but actually drops a tower on them).
- Rules that cause an non-resolvable game state (Peerless Archers can stack infinite attacks of opportunity)
- Rules that don't define something well enough to use it ("Distracted", "Minimum Caster Level", "Paladin spell", "Primary Ability Score", "Special Material", anything missing a range or other variables).
- Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense (EG fire and acid don't do fire and acid damage, you can fall 9 feet onto your head and take no damage, falling creatures deal no damage if they land on you).
- Two or more rules combine to cause an above problem (AC bonuses and bonus feats exist, but bonuses are only applicable to die rolls so no they don't).
- As a general rule, if you need to write a house rule for it.
What this thread is not for
- Typos (Weapon deals 1d33 or 1d43 damage because 3 isn't superscript; "Share Lesser Form" mistyped as "Share Laser Form".)
- Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).
To start us off, here's a fun one
First, Soul Eater's capstone begins with the following line: "After a 10th-level soul eater has drained energy, all spell-like and supernatural abilities gain a +2 profane bonus to their saving throw DC for 24 hours."
Because they said "all" and not "all its" this line means that if a soul eater anywhere drains energy, then all creatures enjoy +2 to the DCs of SLAs and Su abilities. Handy!Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2016-12-09, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Well, on the topic of Soul Eater (although I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before, it's just not in the handbook), its 9th level ability reads:
Soul Slave (Su): If a 9th-level soul eater completely drains a creature of energy, the victim becomes a wight under the command of the soul eater.
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2016-12-09, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-09, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I mean, there is a wight template, but only wights created with the template can pass the template on to their spawn; wights from any other source just rise as Monster Manual wights.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2016-12-09, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
When a creature is sensitive to bright light, does it need to be able to see the bright light to be affected? Would Orcs and Drow take additional penalties if they were blind and in the area of a bright light?
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2016-12-09, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
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2016-12-10, 03:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Well, in the case of an Orcs Light Sensitivity, it inflicts the dazzled condition.
Originally Posted by Blinded SRDOriginally Posted by Dazzled SRD
On a related note (I'm not sure if this counts), a Character blinded by Darkness can make a Listen check as a free action to locate foes. An actual Blinded person does not have that provision, because being blinded makes your hearing less sharp I guess?
Not a negative effect on the game, but it does not really make sense.You think Tucker's Kobolds were bad, now imagine them with Rust Monster Mounts. Oh and they're druids, that use wooden armor. Thank-you and Have a Nice Day
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2016-12-10, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
A few more from Magic of Incarnum: the feat Shape Soulmeld allows you to shape any one meld. The issue is that for melds that grant an ability with a DC associated with them, brass mane and winter mask, there's no way to determine what the DC actually IS if you've accessed these through the feat. I'm inclined to say its 10 +#Essentia+Con since they're Totemist melds, but who knows?
Also, both of those soulmelds fatigue opponents, but there is no given duration for either.
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2016-12-10, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
There are several examples of immunity to blindness in the game: Harssaf, Prismatic Half-Dragon template, Stone Body spell...
Sunwyrm says it more clearly:Immunity to Blindness (Ex): A sunwyrm cannot be blinded through either magical or mundane means.
Seething Eyebane spell (Book of Vile Darkness) make target's eyes explode.
Thus, it's unclear if immunity to blindness make them also immune to Seething Eyebane, or are they just able to see without eyes?
Also, does immunity to blindness from Stone Body spell mean affected creature, who was previously blind, will be suddenly able to see? (Extra points for creatures who don't even have any eyes )
EDIT: Also, this question matter for Blinding SA of Murder of CrowsLast edited by ShurikVch; 2016-12-11 at 12:10 PM.
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2016-12-10, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
You're totally right about shape soulmeld.
As for brass mane and winter mask, that's actually normal. Fatigue as a condition lasts until you get 8 hours of sleep, with most PC instances (rage, touch of fatigue) actually being exceptions. That's how normal dragonne's roar works.Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2016-12-10, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I know fatigue as a condition normally lasts until you get a good rest but I just don't believe that they intended for a level 1 character to be able to touch fatigue every enemy in an encounter with winter mask or just take a... standard action?(that's not actually specified in the entry either so add another one) and fatigue every encounter with brass mane. I guess it's not a dysfunction but it can't be intended behaviour. And looking at it again, brass mane doesn't specify opponents or even 'other creatures'. You have to save against your own roar, and investing essentia just increases the odds of you catching your party members in it as well. Maybe not a dysfunction either but super annoying, especially since totemist has a crap will save.
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2016-12-10, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
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2016-12-10, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Remember that with winter mask you're doing this at the cost of any other offensive action, fatigue won't make monsters that much easier to kill, cold resistance protects against it, and many monsters have high Fort saves. Brass mane is limited by the essentia invested to a smaller range, and remember this is from the throat bind, available at level 14. At this point waves of fatigue has no save and has been online for several levels.
Brass Mane affecting everybody is totally dysfunctional thought, that's what happens when the writers copy/paste without thinking.Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2016-12-11, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
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2016-12-11, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-11, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Last edited by Inevitability; 2016-12-11 at 04:28 AM.
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2016-12-11, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I'm pretty sure there was a page on the wotc site about Monte running a game for his friends on april fool's day and saying they encountered a white dragon so they'd use fire against it, then he said "surprise, it's actually a wight dragon" and it had undead immunities. it had a wight monster template you could apply to stuff from one of the dragon magazines. it might have also been under one of the christmas articles. can anyone else find it?
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2016-12-11, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Dragon Magazine #300 (3.0 territory). Templates for Wight, Wraith, Ghost Brute and Mummy. Wight is page 76.
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2016-12-11, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
The Fire Spiders spell has the following bit of text:
Any cold spell of 3rd level or higher can disperse the fire spiders, ending the spell.
That's right: protecting the tiny fire elementals against cold harms them. If that's not dysfunctional...Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2016-12-11, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Two dysfunctions here, one short and one long.
First, the Ravenous template from Dragon Compendium grants a creature the Feed ability, dealing automatic bite damage with a grapple check. It also grants improved grab triggered by "a natural attack." Does this mean that the creature hits with any natural attack, begins a grapple, and then starts dealing bite damage with the check? Does this mean that it deals the bite damage on top of the damage from the natural attack used to grab? Is it supposed to be that it triggers when the creature hits with a bite and they just didn't edit properly? In this case, does it deal bite damage from Feed on top of the automatic bite damage from improved grab?
Now the long one. Rend is a mess of drastic proportions. Many creatures in the srd have it, triggered when 2 claws hit, and it deals 2xclaw +1.5 str damage. This is even followed in the Rend feat in Draconomicon. Except the gray render has some sort of completely different ability called rend that triggers when it starts grappling with its bite and deals bite+1.5 str damage. To resolve this let's just examine the glossary entry for rend. We find that it does not exist in MM1 nor in MM2. If we turn to MM3 and the Rules Compendium, they give the same formula of natural attack+1.5 str damage. Gray render is the only 3.5 monster I can find that adheres to this formula. All other ones adhere to the formula of 2xnat attack +1.5 str damage. In the case of 3.0 monsters, of the 3 creatures with rend in MM2, one of them, the blood ape doesn't follow either formula (adding 1.5 str to a different die of damage) and the rest follow the general trend. In FF, one creature, the klurichir, follows the glossary formula, the senmurv follows neither (doubles claw but applies only 1xstr), the varrangoin follows neither (1.5 str to a different die), Bacchae follows general trend, and the Half-Troll template gives us a chart that follows the general trend formula. There is no glossary entry for rend in MM2. To me this seems to suggest there wasn't a formula in 3.0, and there sort of was one for 3.5, just not codified until later. I can see whoever did write up the glossary entry going to gray render because rend is in the name and using that as the basis. The weird thing is that after the glossary entry, no monster follows it.
Don't even bother talking about rend for PCs from classes or feats. They're all different from each other and the above.
In summary, the only rule we have for rend applies to only one 3.5 monster, and a general trend that isn't in the rules. Either way, somethings dysfunctional.Last edited by The Viscount; 2016-12-11 at 02:12 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2016-12-11, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I think feed is supposed to work like constrict, but the phrasing of that ability always confused me too. What I guess it's supposed to mean is, "In addition to the normal options in a grapple, you may make a grapple check to automatically deal your applicable natural attack's damage." Otherwise the ability to deal damage on EVERY grapple check is freakishly strong.
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2016-12-13, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Complete Arcane's argent savant requires you be able to cast a bunch of force spells to enter. It does not discriminate based on whether you're divine or arcane. So far so bad.
the text regarding spell progression, however, says it will only advance an arcane casting class. a divine caster could enter, but she would perform the magic trick of transmuting a 4/5 class into a 0/5 class.
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2016-12-14, 01:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
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2016-12-14, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
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2016-12-14, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
The first level doesn't grant casting advancement anyway, and the class's requirements are pretty easy (what cleric isn't going to pump spellcraft?), so I could see a cleric with lots of force spells taking a level. In a low-op environment, +15 damage on your Blade Barriers may be worth a single lost caster level.
Last edited by Inevitability; 2016-12-14 at 11:27 AM.
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2016-12-14, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
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2016-12-14, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-14, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2016-12-14, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Do they? Looks like two empty whitish spheres to me. I wouldn't be surprised if they lacked eyes.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2016-12-14, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I seem to recall flavor text saying that all dragons lose their pupils as they age, with older dragons simply having solid orbs reminiscent of their elemental type.
Edit: Yep
Originally Posted by SRD, Red DragonsLast edited by PallentisLunam; 2016-12-14 at 03:55 PM.