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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    I seem to recall flavor text saying that all dragons lose their pupils as they age, with older dragons simply having solid orbs reminiscent of their elemental type.
    Isn't that only for true dragons, though? Sunwyrms are a standalone monster that happens to have the dragon type.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Isn't that only for true dragons, though? Sunwyrms are a standalone monster that happens to have the dragon type.
    Okay fair point, but:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiend Folio pg. 165
    A fanged mouth and horns dominate the creature's draconic head, and almost-liquid light seems to seep from its eyes.
    Therefore, sunwryms have eyes.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    Okay fair point, but:



    Therefore, sunwryms have eyes.
    Nice find: guess you're right.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    The Sentry Ooze template states in the abilities section it is +2 Int. They are under the impression that doing this to a mindless ooze will give it an Int of 2, but nonabilities aren't zero.

    It might have been said before, but Spikers have DR 2/bludgeoning. The text describes it as if it were DR 2/slashing or piercing.
    Last edited by The Viscount; 2016-12-17 at 01:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    It might have been said before, but Spikers have DR 2/bludgeoning. The text describes it as if it were DR 2/slashing or piercing.
    This one was said before, and it was pointed out that it was fixed in errata, so a close call but no dysfunction.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Book of Blood (Complete Arcane): one of it's powers is finger of death 1/day...
    but each such use permanently drains 1 hit point from the wielder.
    Wait a minute, how the heck exactly works hp drain?
    Is there any ways to protect from it (short of Timeless Body)?
    How we can even restore drained hps?
    Also, Book of Blood is one more unconventional way to kill the Tarrasque without resorting to Wish or Miracle: Regeneration doesn't do jack against the hp drain, so, if somebody with Book of Blood will possess T - after the ~ 2 years, 4 months, 2 weeks, and few days - it will be dead. It looks like very long and ineffective way to do it, but it's one more way to ignore supposedly-set-in-stone restriction
    The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

    Constructs who are made wholly of adamantine - such as Adamantine Golem or Animated Object (chunk of adamantine) - are incapable neither to overcome DR/adamantine, nor to ignore hardness up to 20

    Spikes of Warforged from Spiked Body feat may cause damage: "1d6 points for a Medium warforged"; spikes of Warforged Juggernaut - "1d6 points of piercing damage" - regardless of size
    Also,
    Healing Immunity: Starting at 3rd level, as a warforged juggernaut becomes more like a construct and less like a living creature, it becomes immune to the effects of spells from the healing subschool.
    Guess: in which subschool are Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection?
    (Also, no way to animate as Undead: Construct Perfection III cause immunity to Necromancy)
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2016-12-17 at 03:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Book of Blood (Complete Arcane): one of it's powers is finger of death 1/day... Wait a minute, how the heck exactly works hp drain?
    Is there any ways to protect from it (short of Timeless Body)?
    How we can even restore drained hps?
    Also, Book of Blood is one more unconventional way to kill the Tarrasque without resorting to Wish or Miracle: Regeneration doesn't do jack against the hp drain, so, if somebody with Book of Blood will possess T - after the ~ 2 years, 4 months, 2 weeks, and few days - it will be dead. It looks like very long and ineffective way to do it, but it's one more way to ignore supposedly-set-in-stone restriction
    You don't kill big T that way, you just incapacitate it permanently in yet another way. To kill it you still need a Wish or Miracle.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Spikes of Warforged from Spiked Body feat may cause damage: "1d6 points for a Medium warforged"; spikes of Warforged Juggernaut - "1d6 points of piercing damage" - regardless of size
    No dysfunction. Weird, but no dysfunction.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Also,Guess: in which subschool are Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection?
    (Also, no way to animate as Undead: Construct Perfection III cause immunity to Necromancy)
    'Cannot be raised or resurrected' is not a dysfunction. The same goes for 'cannot be raised as undead'. At most, it's an unintended consquence of following the rules, like a monk 20 becoming immune to Enlarge Person.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    You don't kill big T that way, you just incapacitate it permanently in yet another way. To kill it you still need a Wish or Miracle.
    Dead:
    The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
    Also, line about "wish or miracle" is in the Regeneration SQ. Regeneration doesn't do a thing against hp drain, and Dead creatures are incapable to regenerate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    'Cannot be raised or resurrected' is not a dysfunction. The same goes for 'cannot be raised as undead'. At most, it's an unintended consquence of following the rules, like a monk 20 becoming immune to Enlarge Person.
    Isn't many of dysfunctions are exactly "an unintended consquence of following the rules" (such as, for example, Dread Necromancer can be harmed by his own Negative Energy Burst)?
    I pointed it as dysfunction, because I seriously doubt writer's intention was: "If Juggernaut is dead - then it should stay dead! Yes, and no necromancy! I wouldn't allow a robot zombie in my game!"

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Also HP drain is explicitly healed by Wish or Miracle in the rules for it in BoED. I did not realize there was a second source of it gloating around the game though.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Isn't many of dysfunctions are exactly "an unintended consquence of following the rules" (such as, for example, Dread Necromancer can be harmed by his own Negative Energy Burst)?
    I pointed it as dysfunction, because I seriously doubt writer's intention was: "If Juggernaut is dead - then it should stay dead! Yes, and no necromancy! I wouldn't allow a robot zombie in my game!"
    I think it is totally intended. Warforged Juggernauts become more construct-like, and constructs cannot be raised or animated. Without specific spells of course.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    Also HP drain is explicitly healed by Wish or Miracle in the rules for it in BoED. I did not realize there was a second source of it gloating around the game though.
    Ah, Vassal of Bahamut...
    Indeed - it cause "permanent hit point drain"
    But, by the RAW, "wish or miracle spell can restore hit points drained permanently by a vassal's dragonwrack ability."
    Thus, ways to restore hit point drain by any other reason - such as Book of Blood - is still unclear

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    I think it is totally intended. Warforged Juggernauts become more construct-like, and constructs cannot be raised or animated. Without specific spells of course.
    Rebuild Item utterance actually able to restore at least some of Constructs - since Craft Construct is [Item Creation] feat, Constructs are items

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Isn't there also 'revive construct'? Is that a healing spell?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Isn't there also 'revive construct'? Is that a healing spell?
    AFAIK, 'revive construct' is a homebrew

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    In relation to ShurikVch's quote about the dead condition, while I haven't read the rules regarding HP drain, I would contend that while the target's HPs are going down, this is different that reducing their HP via damage. You are changing the total possible value rather than the current value.

    How is it even possible to have a HP max of -10. Isn't there a rule that states a creature always has a minimum of 1 HP per HD?

    Apologies if this is addressed in the rules for HP drain.
    Last edited by PallentisLunam; 2016-12-17 at 09:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    AFAIK, 'revive construct' is a homebrew
    I was sure it was in spell compendium next to revive outsider...

    Regarding the tarrasque, I suppose the thing that keeps it 'alive' at -10 hp is that its soul doesn't leave at that point. We need wish or miracle to boot that spark out.
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    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    In relation to ShurikVch's quote about the dead condition, while I haven't read the rules regarding HP drain I would contend that while the target'still HPs are going down this is different that reducing their HP via damage. You are changing the total possible value rather than the current value.

    How is it even possible to have a HP max of -10. Isn't there a rule that states a creature always has a minimum of 1 HP per HD?

    Apologies if this is addressed in the rules for HP drain.
    I'm pretty sure that rule only applies to HP penalties per hit die. It's to stop you rolling negative health as you level a character

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    I'm pretty sure that rule only applies to HP penalties per hit die. It's to stop you rolling negative health as you level a character
    IIRC the rule is that you cannot roll below a 1 on health, but if your Con drops your max HP can fall under what that rule would provide. EX: A person with 3 levels, a d4, and a Con of 4 would have 3 HP max. If they took one Con damage their max HP would fall to 0 and they would suffer appropriate.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I was sure it was in spell compendium next to revive outsider...

    Regarding the tarrasque, I suppose the thing that keeps it 'alive' at -10 hp is that its soul doesn't leave at that point. We need wish or miracle to boot that spark out.
    You are mistaken. The spell immediately before revive outsider is reverse arrows. Revive construct does not exist in 3.5 (though it really should) since the spell right after is revive undead.

    Interestingly, this brings me to a related dysfunction:

    If you take at least 3 levels of warforged juggernaut, you cannot be brought back from the dead with any of the normal rez spells. you'd have to be reincarnated or last breathed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    IIRC the rule is that you cannot roll below a 1 on health, but if your Con drops your max HP can fall under what that rule would provide. EX: A person with 3 levels, a d4, and a Con of 4 would have 3 HP max. If they took one Con damage their max HP would fall to 0 and they would suffer appropriate.
    Yes, that's correct. it's on p58 of the phb.

    If you take the frail flaw under these circumstances, you can have 0hp for the level.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    A crowbar gives a +2 bonus on strength checks made for "such purposes"; no context given.

    Hitting someone with a hammer deals as much bludgeoning damage as a spiked gauntlet of its size, which is zero.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2016-12-19 at 05:26 AM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    A crowbar gives a +2 bonus on strength checks made for "such purposes"; no context given.

    Hitting someone with a hammer deals as much bludgeoning damage as a spiked gauntlet of its size, which is zero.
    The text is elaborated upon and given the required context in the PHB. Why those parts were removed from the SRD is beyond me.

    How do you figure? A spiked gauntlet is a light weapon that deals 1d4 points of damage for a medium creature. Therefore a hammer, as a one-handed weapon made for a medium creature, should deal 1d6.
    Last edited by PallentisLunam; 2016-12-19 at 12:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I know it's not for serious, but still: Pig Bound - pig is "maximum load"; clothing have listed weights; does it mean hypothetical Pig Bound Commoner should be also either immobile, naked, or mounted?
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2016-12-19 at 01:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    How do you figure? A spiked gauntlet is a light weapon that deals 1d4 points of damage for a medium creature. Therefore a hammer, as a one-handed weapon made for a medium creature, should deal 1d6.
    Meaning a Spiked Gauntlet does precisely 0 Bludgeoning damage. It does deal piercing damage though.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Couldn't the sentence be read as 'deals as much bludgeoning damage as the amount of damage done by a spiked gauntlet of its size?'.

    A spiked gauntlet deals 1d4 points of damage: type is irrelevant. Therefore, a hammer deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Couldn't the sentence be read as 'deals as much bludgeoning damage as the amount of damage done by a spiked gauntlet of its size?'.

    A spiked gauntlet deals 1d4 points of damage: type is irrelevant. Therefore, a hammer deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage.
    Oh yeah, that's clearly the way everyone both initially and should interpret it. The whole sensible interpretation thing means it probably shouldn't be added to the handbook or anything. I was just trying to clarify what the proposed dysfunction was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    immobile, naked, or mounted
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Can't remember if I mentioned this before, but casting Alter Self to turn into a swarm doesn't grant you swarm traits. Which means that despite your body physically turning into thousands of little critters, you can somehow still be grappled.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Couldn't the sentence be read as 'deals as much bludgeoning damage as the amount of damage done by a spiked gauntlet of its size?'.

    A spiked gauntlet deals 1d4 points of damage: type is irrelevant. Therefore, a hammer deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage.
    I don't think it could be. If I say "There are as many green feathers in the box as in the barrel", that means "The number of feathers which are green and in the box is the same as the number of feathers which are green and in the barrel", not "The number of feathers which are in the box is the same as the number of feathers which are in the barrel, and also the ones in the box are green but I can make no assurances about the colours of the ones in the barrel."
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I don't think it could be. If I say "There are as many green feathers in the box as in the barrel", that means "The number of feathers which are green and in the box is the same as the number of feathers which are green and in the barrel", not "The number of feathers which are in the box is the same as the number of feathers which are in the barrel, and also the ones in the box are green but I can make no assurances about the colours of the ones in the barrel."
    Well that depends on the context. This might just be me but if I don't know the contents of the barrel, or if the barrel has some known number of green feathers in it, I'd assume that there are as many green feathers in it as in the box. But if I know that if there are some number of feathers in the barrel and NONE of them are green, I'd assume you meant "There are as many green feathers in the box as total feathers in the barrel" and not "There are zero green feathers you dummy" (barring obvious sarcasm). I think that "A hammer deals the same damage that a spiked gauntlet does, but as bludgeoning damage" is valid since we know a spiked gauntlet doesn't deal bludgeoning damage.
    Last edited by nailbudday; 2016-12-20 at 12:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I personally think that in a RAW based thread, we need to look at what an ability says, not what we think it's obvious that it means.




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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I personally think that in a RAW based thread, we need to look at what an ability says, not what we think it's obvious that it means.
    The point is that when you have a sentence that requires parsing, and one way of parsing it has no dysfunction and the other does, it's not a dysfunction. Or at least, not a strong one. If the rule was "you get 100 gp every time you give me all the red feathers in that magic box that generates red feathers sometimes," and there are no red feathers in the box, the rule either means you can't give any red feathers until some appear, or that you get infinite gp because you can give me 0 red feathers in an infinitesimally small time. The one is clearly dysfunctional, but that doesn't mean it's what the rule says, per se.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So a ranger is like a Bachelor of Applied Druidology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Jake View Post
    What's the word for 'fear of being eaten by a mounted bear in half-plate' again? Because that's the one I have.

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