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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Because I mentioned it in another thread: archer's eye (normal) doesn't do anything. There are no penalties from concealment, and there is consequentially nothing to ignore. Also, the current dysfunction listed for it is nonsense -- it never mentions cover, and the inability to attack targets is not a penalty.

  2. - Top - End - #572
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Pyrokineticists can kill someone as a full attack action but that's not how full attack actions work.
    This isn't a dysfunction, it's just an exception. Full attacks don't normally work that way; for a Pyrokineticist using Heat Death, they do.

  3. - Top - End - #573
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    This isn't a dysfunction, it's just an exception. Full attacks don't normally work that way; for a Pyrokineticist using Heat Death, they do.
    But it's a completely pointless exception - it could be a full action, but it being a full attack action just doesn't make sense. It being a full attack action when that's not what a full attack action is or does is clearly pointless and self-abnegating.

    EDIT: "Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect" - I don't think you're meant to be able to make a heat death at the end of your pounce.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2017-08-09 at 08:48 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #574
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I don't think you're meant to be able to make a heat death at the end of your pounce.
    You know, that might actually be exactly why it was worded that way. 9 levels without ML advancement for a Save or Die that can be used whenever you would otherwise have a Full Attack is arguably worth it for a Gish. Although it'd be a lot more worth it if it followed Warmind and Psionic Fist and had PP progression of it's own.

  5. - Top - End - #575
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    You know, that might actually be exactly why it was worded that way. 9 levels without ML advancement for a Save or Die that can be used whenever you would otherwise have a Full Attack is arguably worth it for a Gish. Although it'd be a lot more worth it if it followed Warmind and Psionic Fist and had PP progression of it's own.
    You genuinely believe that WotC were clever enough to make that a thing?

    Heat death at the end of your pounce is obviously unintended. C'mon.

  6. - Top - End - #576
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    But it's a completely pointless exception - it could be a full action, but it being a full attack action just doesn't make sense. It being a full attack action when that's not what a full attack action is or does is clearly pointless and self-abnegating.
    It works just fine in the rules. The game can handle alternate uses for a full attack action no problem. See Whirlwind Attack, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    EDIT: "Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect" - I don't think you're meant to be able to make a heat death at the end of your pounce.
    I don't think they were intended to be used together, but it doesn't seem to be problematic rules-wise, beyond the usual problems with pounce that I assume are in the handbook already.

  7. - Top - End - #577
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    We've discussed lycanthrope before, but I think there might be a bit more to talk about.

    First is one I'm not so sure about. They mention that a lycanthrope with a manufactured weapon uses that with a bite, but doesn't use claws. Is that a legal statement? Do we just say specific trumping general and move on?

    The second one is a bit broader, but much clearer. The hybrid form gains 2 claws and a bite, regardless of what the original animal was. I'm fine with that, I don't need these monsters to make sense. The problem arises when the examples don't follow those rules. The wererat has no claws in its hybrid form, and the wereboar has a gore instead of a bite attack. The wererat was likely for CR reasons and the wereboar for sense, but if this how it works why are there no rules discussing how to deal with similar animals? If it's just a case of specific trumping general to try to make more sense, we're left with the fact that something like a were-elephant has a bite instead of a gore, which counteracts the point of their example.
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  8. - Top - End - #578
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    The thing with manufactured weapons makes perfect sense depending on how it's worded. You can mix manufactured and natural as you wish, but you can't use that appendage if it's occupied: that is, you can't use a claw attack if you're using that hand to hold a sword. I forget where this is stated but I'm fairly confident that that's an explicit rule. I guess it could cause some issues if they worded it badly and using braid blades stopped you using hands or you could use a mouthpick and a bite at the same time though.

  9. - Top - End - #579
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Sure, the rule about not being able to claw when your hand is full makes perfect sense. I was thinking about using a light or one-handed weapon, which should leave the other claw open to attack. The sample wereboar is using two hands for the battleaxe, so that's fine. The sample wererat is using a rapier so should get the other claw, but as mentioned before the wererat doesn't have any claws for unknown reasons. The sample werewolf lord is wielding a bastard sword with one hand, and isn't holding a shield, so should get a claw attack with the off hand.
    For example, the xill has a full attack of 2 short swords and 2 claws because it has 4 arms. Shouldn't the same rules apply for lycanthropes?

    Now that I'm looking closer, what on earth is happening with the werebear's hybrid form? How is it attacking with a claw first and then the greataxe second? That's not just breaking the established rule of not attacking with a claw when your hand is full (and the rule in the tempate about this) that's breaking basic weapon and natural attack rules. The greataxe attack here is being treated like it's a secondary attack, since it's at only a -2 penalty and receives half the strength bonus, and that's not how any of this works. Also even when the greataxe is used as a primary attack as a standard action, there's no reason that it should be at a +11 bonus, it should be at +13 just like the claw.

    EDIT: Another look at werebear has at least answered the question of attack bonus. The greataxe is one for the Medium human form, so when he is a Large hybrid he takes a -2 penalty for an inappropriate sized weapon, and can treat it as a one-handed weapon. That being said, it still does not explain how he's treating it as a secondary attack.
    Last edited by The Viscount; 2017-08-20 at 08:51 PM.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Don't we have a standing dysfunction for all WotC stat blocks?

  11. - Top - End - #581
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Has there ever been a compilation of mistaken stat blocks? I keep hearing they are a huge problem, but I don't remember too many of them. Has anyone made a thread that lists them?
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
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  12. - Top - End - #582
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Has there ever been a compilation of mistaken stat blocks? I keep hearing they are a huge problem, but I don't remember too many of them. Has anyone made a thread that lists them?
    It'd be quicker to list the ones that do fit the rules.
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  13. - Top - End - #583
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I think somebody listed the nondysfunctional one once and there were like... 3? I think it was the RKV, Totemist and one other. Maybe the Binder?

  14. - Top - End - #584
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    It'd be quicker to list the ones that do fit the rules.
    Yeah, but it would be funnier to do all the ones that don't. I thought huge lists of dysfunctions were what we liked.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  15. - Top - End - #585
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    Don't we have a standing dysfunction for all WotC stat blocks?
    We do, but it's typically just poor calculation for sample characters. Monsters are different, and this is a problem beyond simple incorrect numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    I think somebody listed the nondysfunctional one once and there were like... 3? I think it was the RKV, Totemist and one other. Maybe the Binder?
    I've only ever seen one old thread about it (linked in the handbook) and the first person to come in found a mistake on the first one they turned to and gave up immediately.
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  16. - Top - End - #586
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    It's a little hard for me to verify at the moment, but damage from thirst and starvation can't be healed until the creature eats/ drinks, right? Wouldn't that mean that a creature that dies from thirst or starvation can't be brought back from the dead? They can't eat while dead and I don't think any spell gives them a full stomach when they're brought back.

    Though technically the negative hp buffer keeps this from happening easily. A creature is more likely to die from the state of dying than from actual starvation. A creature revived to -1 hp is still alive and can be force-fed. For a creature to truly die of thirst, it would have to successfully stabilize in negative hp and actually have the killing blow come from thirst damage. Then it's hp would be forever stuck at -10.

    Though I suppose if you could somehow buff a dead creature's constitution while it was dead, it would have a renewed pool of hp that wasn't taken away through starvation. Is there any way to make potential HP for a dead creature without reviving it?

    Just some stupid late-night thoughts.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  17. - Top - End - #587
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I do not remember the thirst rules in Sandstorm but in the DMG you cannot die of hunger or thirst. Sandstorm may have changed that. Raise Dead specifies that your HP is a number so I am not sure if this counts as healing. I am AFB so I cannot give a better opinion of that.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    • Nothing is being doubled to start with, so I'm not sure why that 'still' is there; unless they count upping the die size to be doubling but I'd hardly call an average increase of 2 damage doubled.
    • What does 'Your weapon is treated as good aligned for overcoming dr when you smite' have to do with your weapon dealing bonus damage to undead and outsiders? Exalted smite's not even remotely related, not to mention that a Fist gets a class feature that replicates Exalted Smite anyway.
    Sounds like Exalted Smite used to double damage from holy weapons on a smite, and then was changed without checking to see what it affected.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    I do not remember the thirst rules in Sandstorm but in the DMG you cannot die of hunger or thirst. Sandstorm may have changed that. Raise Dead specifies that your HP is a number so I am not sure if this counts as healing. I am AFB so I cannot give a better opinion of that.
    You are correct about rules for death by thirst. The thing that makes me think Raise Dead is 'healing' is that it's the same school as healing spells. Also AFB, but I think it was evocation with some subschool.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  20. - Top - End - #590
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Shatter mind blank dispels mind blanks "Affecting the target" but doesn't target anything, it has an area.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Shatter mind blank dispels mind blanks "Affecting the target" but doesn't target anything, it has an area.
    One small relief: it'll never come up in any game ever.
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  22. - Top - End - #592
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    One small relief: it'll never come up in any game ever.
    You mean to say that an ability from a subsystem that many DMs ban offhand, which is almost strictly worse than dispel psionics, and which only works against an exceptionally limited set of abilities which don't often see play partly because they're too high level, will never come up? HERESY!

  23. - Top - End - #593
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    HERESY!
    Wrong universe

  24. - Top - End - #594
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    Wrong universe
    A pity, because there are all sorts of dysfunctions in the 40K target priority rules...

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    A pity, because there are all sorts of dysfunctions in the 40K target priority rules...
    Shush, they're fixing it in the new edition, obviously.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    The Torc of Power Preservation is very poorly worded. The effect is given as follows
    "The wearer of a torc of power preservation manifests all powers by paying power points equal to the standard cost minus 1 (minimum of 1)."

    Because of the poor wording, it might be interpreted as making augments cost nothing, or as allowing the wearer to manifest all their powers at the same time.
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  27. - Top - End - #597
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    The Torc of Power Preservation is very poorly worded. The effect is given as follows
    "The wearer of a torc of power preservation manifests all powers by paying power points equal to the standard cost minus 1 (minimum of 1)."

    Because of the poor wording, it might be interpreted as making augments cost nothing, or as allowing the wearer to manifest all their powers at the same time.
    This thread is not for dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it. Further I'm not convinced you even can read it as saying that you manifest them all at once.

  28. - Top - End - #598
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Wild Surge always makes you pay only the unaugmented cost of the power regardless of any augmentation done in addition to what Wild Surge provides. Given the example above I am wondering if someone just forgot about that spiffy augmenting mechanic.
    Last edited by ZamielVanWeber; 2017-09-04 at 02:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    Wild Surge always makes you pay only the unaugmented cost of the power regardless of any augmentation done in addition to what Wild Surge provides. Given the example above I am wondering if someone just forgot about that spiffy augmenting mechanic.
    Wait a sec, lemme just check tha--

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve.
    Woah.

    That's pretty explicit.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Wait a sec, lemme just check tha--



    Woah.

    That's pretty explicit.
    Yeah, that's... I mean, I see what they were going for, but yeah. No argument here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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