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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    The point is that when you have a sentence that requires parsing, and one way of parsing it has no dysfunction and the other does, it's not a dysfunction.
    But only one of the two interpretations is a correct interpretation of what the sentence actually says. We can, for most of the dysfunctions already brought up, be quite clear on what the rule is supposed to mean (obviously, drowning someone is only ever supposed to reduce their hit points), but what the rule actually says is the bludgeoning damage dealt by the hammer is the same as the amount dealt by the spiked gauntlet, id est zero. There is no real argument to be had that what the sentence actually says is "The hammer deals bludgeoning damage equal to the damage dealt by a spiked gauntlet of the same size", only one that it might have been intended to say that.

    Incidentally, the fact that all of the red feathers in a box with zero red feathers in is zero red feathers is even more blindingly obvious, so I don't see what the point of that example is.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2016-12-20 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Unrelated: Gen, who cannot cast spells and, when forced to fight, do so with their slam attack, have the Combat Casting and Weapon Finesse feats.
    Antimagic fields are a thing and Weapon Finesse can be used with any and all natural weapons.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    If an effect said it dealt bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier, would it deal no damage because your Strength modifier doesn't deal bludgeoning damage?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    If an effect said it dealt bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier, would it deal no damage because your Strength modifier doesn't deal bludgeoning damage?
    No, but if it said it dealt bludgeoning damage equal to that dealt by your strength modifier, which is the wording used by the hammer, then it would deal no damage. If the amount of damage that the hammer dealt actually was a spiked gauntlet, that would be even more dysfunctional, though.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    No, but if it said it dealt bludgeoning damage equal to that dealt by your strength modifier, which is the wording used by the hammer, then it would deal no damage. If the amount of damage that the hammer dealt actually was a spiked gauntlet, that would be even more dysfunctional, though.
    Optimization challenge: create a build that deals the most spiked gauntlets of damage per round.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Optimization challenge: create a build that deals the most spiked gauntlets of damage per round.
    "Optimisation stops being practical and starts being theoretical when your damage per round is measured in spiked gauntlets instead of hit points".

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by OP View Post
    What this thread is not for

    • Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    S P I K E D G A U N T L E T
    19 + 16 + 9 + 11 + 5 + 4 + 7 + 1 + 21 + 14 + 20 + 12 + 5 + 20
    164

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
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    Indeed, all 1 of the possible English readings of the text are dysfunctional!




    Savage Species' Chain Lash:

    "You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
    "In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Savage Species' Chain Lash:

    "You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
    "In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."
    So you can use the weapon as a double weapon, but it does not have reach. Or you can use it as a reach weapon and it can also hit adjacent opponents, like a spiked chain.
    No dysfunctions here. The 2 phrases are separated to refer to the two possible uses of the weapon.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by flare'90 View Post
    So you can use the weapon as a double weapon, but it does not have reach. Or you can use it as a reach weapon and it can also hit adjacent opponents, like a spiked chain.
    No dysfunctions here. The 2 phrases are separated to refer to the two possible uses of the weapon.
    Right, ignoring the fact that the distinction between using an inclusive reach weapon to attack an adjacent square and using a reach weapon as a non-reach weapon to attack that same square is nothing. There's no difference between one action, which is forbidden, and another action, which is allowed.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Right, ignoring the fact that the distinction between using an inclusive reach weapon to attack an adjacent square and using a reach weapon as a non-reach weapon to attack that same square is nothing. There's no difference between one action, which is forbidden, and another action, which is allowed.
    No, attacking with a inclusive reach weapon (like a spiked chain, or the chain lash in this case) an adjacent square is explicitly allowed. And attacking an adjacent square with a non-reach weapon is allowed.
    I don't get what do you think is the dysfunction.
    EDIT: Also, this is the weapon text:
    Chain Lash:This is a simple chain with weighted ends.
    It can be whirled quickly, striking with hard blows because
    of the weights. One end can also be swung out to entangle
    an opponent. Kytons often wield these weapons in place of
    their chain rakes and apply their dancing chains ability to
    them.
    The chain lash can be used either as a double weapon or
    as a reach weapon.
    You can fight with it as if fighting with
    two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if
    using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this
    case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
    If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike
    opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other
    weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe.
    In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effec-
    tively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
    Because the chain lash can wrap around an enemy’s leg or
    other limb, you can make trip attacks with it. If you are
    tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the
    chain lash to avoid being tripped.
    When using a chain lash, you get a +2 bonus on your
    opposed attack roll when attempting to disarm an oppo-
    nent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if you fail
    to disarm your opponent).
    You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dex-
    terity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack
    rolls with a chain lash.
    Bolded for emphasis.
    Last edited by flare'90; 2016-12-21 at 08:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by flare'90 View Post
    I don't get what do you think is the dysfunction.
    The dysfunction is that you both can only, and cannot, attack adjacent squares while using it as a double weapon:

    "You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
    ""In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    The dysfunction is that you both can only, and cannot, attack adjacent squares while using it as a double weapon:

    "You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
    ""In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."
    "The chain lash can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon."
    You chose to use the chain lash as a double weapon or as a reach weapon, not both.
    In the first case (double weapon) it does not have reach. You can only attack adjacent opponents.
    In the second case (reach weapon) it does have reach. You can attack opponents 10' away. In addition you can attack adjacent opponents, since the text explicitly tells you that you can.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by flare'90 View Post
    "The chain lash can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon."
    You chose to use the chain lash as a double weapon or as a reach weapon, not both.
    In the first case (double weapon) it does not have reach. You can only attack adjacent opponents.
    In the second case (reach weapon) it does have reach. You can attack opponents 10' away. In addition you can attack adjacent opponents, since the text explicitly tells you that you can.
    Okay, let me rephrase:

    What is the point of the reach weapon form of the weapon being inclusive reach, given that if you were going to attack the creature 5 feet away, you could use the double weapon form?

    Or to rephrase again:

    When you attack a creature 5 feet away, you can either choose to fight with it as a double weapon, or as an inclusive reach weapon. Doing the latter is clearly pointless. However, the only time when you can't attack with it as a double weapon is when it's in the secondary mode, and you're attacking a creature 5 feet away. Thus, the entire thing with it having two modes is pointless anyway.

    Or to rephrase again:

    The given case where "You can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon" is when "you... use it against an adjacent foe". However, when you're attacking from 5 feet away, you can attack with it as a double weapon anyway. Even if you read the "You cannot use it as a double weapon" as applying to the whole "If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe," then giving it inclusive reach is totally pointless, because being a double weapon is just better than not being (if you have a double weapon, you can wield it as a single weapon anyway) and because you can choose on each attack, the weapon description is just redundant and self-abnegating.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Okay, let me rephrase:

    What is the point of the reach weapon form of the weapon being inclusive reach, given that if you were going to attack the creature 5 feet away, you could use the double weapon form?

    Or to rephrase again:

    When you attack a creature 5 feet away, you can either choose to fight with it as a double weapon, or as an inclusive reach weapon. Doing the latter is clearly pointless. However, the only time when you can't attack with it as a double weapon is when it's in the secondary mode, and you're attacking a creature 5 feet away. Thus, the entire thing with it having two modes is pointless anyway.

    Or to rephrase again:

    The given case where "You can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon" is when "you... use it against an adjacent foe". However, when you're attacking from 5 feet away, you can attack with it as a double weapon anyway. Even if you read the "You cannot use it as a double weapon" as applying to the whole "If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe," then giving it inclusive reach is totally pointless, because being a double weapon is just better than not being (if you have a double weapon, you can wield it as a single weapon anyway) and because you can choose on each attack, the weapon description is just redundant and self-abnegating.
    Maybe it's useful if you want to attack a target 10' away, you drop it and use Cleave to attack someone adjacent?
    What's more likely to be a dysfunction is that the weapon does not specifies if you're meant to choose reach or double weapon at the start of a full attack action or you can mix in the same full-attack. Presonally I read it as "chose one or the other for this round" but it's ambigous.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by flare'90 View Post
    Maybe it's useful if you want to attack a target 10' away, you drop it and use Cleave to attack someone adjacent?
    What's more likely to be a dysfunction is that the weapon does not specifies if you're meant to choose reach or double weapon at the start of a full attack action or you can mix in the same full-attack. Presonally I read it as "chose one or the other for this round" but it's ambigous.
    You do have to decide how you are going to use it at the beginning of the round and for the whole round because that's how you calculate your to-hit bonus or penalty.

    The text is important because you have to choose for the round whether you want reach or an extra attack and when you get into BABs of 6 and above I can think of plenty of situations where the decision would be relevant.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    You do have to decide how you are going to use it at the beginning of the round and for the whole round because that's how you calculate your to-hit bonus or penalty.

    The text is important because you have to choose for the round whether you want reach or an extra attack and when you get into BABs of 6 and above I can think of plenty of situations where the decision would be relevant.
    Good. So the ability to chose attack close even with the reach function has a purpose.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    "You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
    ""In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."

    Okay clarifying. To use it as a double weapon, you have to attack adjacent targets, as the the first paragraph. BUT! To attack adjacent, you cannot use it as a double weapon, as the second. That is what the text says.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    "You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
    ""In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."

    Okay clarifying. To use it as a double weapon, you have to attack adjacent targets, as the the first paragraph. BUT! To attack adjacent, you cannot use it as a double weapon, as the second. That is what the text says.
    No, what the text says is that you cannot use it as both a reach weapon and a double weapon at the same time.

    As such when it is a reach weapon the inclusive reach rules apply and the double weapon rules do not and when it is a double weapon the double weapon rules apply and the inclusive reach rules do not
    Last edited by PallentisLunam; 2016-12-21 at 03:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    No, what the text says is that you cannot use it as both a reach weapon and a double weapon at the same time.

    As such when it is a reach weapon the inclusive reach rules apply and the double weapon rules do not and when it is a double weapon the double weapon rules apply and the inclusive reach rules do not
    That's not what it's saying though. The second paragraph there, in direct contradiction to the first, says that you cannot attack adjacent targets with it while using it as a double weapon. And also, you could switch between using it as a double weapon and as a reach weapon. You just have to accept TWF penalties on all your attacks, just like if you were using a ranseur with a spiked gauntlet.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    That's not what it's saying though. The second paragraph there, in direct contradiction to the first, says that you cannot attack adjacent targets with it while using it as a double weapon. And also, you could switch between using it as a double weapon and as a reach weapon. You just have to accept TWF penalties on all your attacks, just like if you were using a ranseur with a spiked gauntlet.
    No. The first line of the entry says you can use the weapon as a reach weapon or a double weapon. It is never a reach double weapon. So the rules don't ever apply at the same time.

    You have, however, convinced me that as long as you declare the penalties from the start you can switch back and forth as many times as you have attacks

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    No. The first line of the entry says you can use the weapon as a reach weapon or a double weapon. It is never a reach double weapon. So the rules don't ever apply at the same time.
    Let's look at those two lines again:
    You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
    This one says that you can only attack adjacent creatures while using it as a double weapon.
    In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
    This line says that you can attack adjacent foes with it, as already mentioned in the double weapon part. However, it also says that when you are attacking adjacent foes, you cannot use it as a double weapon. So at one point it says you can use it as a double weapon, but another says that you cannot use it as a double weapon in the only situation it previously said you could. Because that second sentence comes after saying that you can attack adjacent creatures rather than after saying it is a reach weapon, logically it follows that it is applied to attacking adjacent creatures.
    So if these three sentences:
    If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
    Were instead aligned like:
    If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe.
    Then yes, there would be no dysfunction.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I'm not sure if this has been noted before.

    Reptilian template in Savage Species:

    "Attacks: A reptilian gains a claw attack if it did not already have one."

    A claw. As in, just one. Because bilateral symmetry is for those nerdy therapsids.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    The line I was referring to is this one:

    The chain lash can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon.
    But let me address your points

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    Let's look at those two lines again:

    You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
    This one says that you can only attack adjacent creatures while using it as a double weapon.
    No. This line says that when using the weapon as a double weapon, you may only attack adjacent creatures. An important distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
    This line says that you can attack adjacent foes with it, as already mentioned in the double weapon part. However, it also says that when you are attacking adjacent foes, you cannot use it as a double weapon. So at one point it says you can use it as a double weapon, but another says that you cannot use it as a double weapon in the only situation it previously said you could. Because that second sentence comes after saying that you can attack adjacent creatures rather than after saying it is a reach weapon, logically it follows that it is applied to attacking adjacent creatures.
    What this line says is that when the weapon has the reach property you can use it to attack adjacent foes, but only as a reach weapon not as a double weapon. And the "case" referred to in this line is not "when attacking adjacent creatures" it is "when the weapon has the inclusive reach property and you use it to attack adjacent creatures" therefore there is no dysfunction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    A claw. As in, just one. Because bilateral symmetry is for those nerdy therapsids.
    Is it dysfunctional that a warforged only gets one slam attack?
    Last edited by PallentisLunam; 2016-12-21 at 05:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

    A claw. As in, just one. Because bilateral symmetry is for those nerdy therapsids.
    Octopi (not giant, regular) get a single attack with their 8 arms combined. Maybe these guys are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    Is it dysfunctional that a warforged only gets one slam attack?
    I think there is actually a rule or at least generalization in the MM along the lines of "medium creatures typically have one slam attack, large creatures have two" because a Medium creature uses its entire body to slam, and a Large one can use each forelimb by itself.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    Is it dysfunctional that a warforged only gets one slam attack?
    Yes! But only when wielding a two-handed weapon or both arms are occupied. You may not be aware, but slam attacks can be something of a sore spot for me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I think there is actually a rule or at least generalization in the MM along the lines of "medium creatures typically have one slam attack, large creatures have two" because a Medium creature uses its entire body to slam, and a Large one can use each forelimb by itself.
    If only! Generalization, possibly... Rule, not so much. Actually, all the RAI I can find points to slams always being associated with arms. The dysfunction is when you have a single slam and are trying to do something else with your arms, when is the slam no longer available? But I'm pretty sure that's a known dysfunction.

    I'm ok with the octopus only getting a single arms attack, although I am sad that it can't take advantage of Multi-Weapon Fighting. A better example might be the hawk which has two talons but only one attack roll for both of them.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Some slams are made with the whole body. You see it sometimes with aquatic creatures, like the porpoise.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I always assumed warforged got one slam because it was a two handed overhead smash kinda thing.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by PallentisLunam View Post
    The line I was referring to is this one:
    I understand that, and am not questioning it.

    But let me address your points

    No. This line says that when using the weapon as a double weapon, you may only attack adjacent creatures. An important distinction.
    That is what I meant to say, just not in a very clear way it seems.

    What this line says is that when the weapon has the reach property you can use it to attack adjacent foes, but only as a reach weapon not as a double weapon. And the "case" referred to in this line is not "when attacking adjacent creatures" it is "when the weapon has the inclusive reach property and you use it to attack adjacent creatures" therefore there is no dysfunction.
    That's not how English works. 'In this case' refers to the last situation that was talked about, and in RAW that situation is attacking adjacent targets, not using it as a reach weapon. Putting it before the sentence talking about adjacent targets makes it refer to not being usable as a double weapon with reach, and the distinction wasn't even necessary as the double weapon part already specified this. By RAW it both can and cannot be used as a double weapon to attack adjacent targets.
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