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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    Well the weirdness with finding other worms is that presumably the worms in a Worm that Walks are somehow different from your garden variety worm, so it's unclear whether they could "infect" the offspring.

    Also, if they really are made of worms, how do they inflict damage on engulfed opponents? It's something I never understood.
    Well, the engulf is Ex and the damage is untyped. Perhaps it is the crush of vermin (the worms linking together into a giant muscle that compresses the victim)? The worms could also attempt to burrow into soft tissues, which is how constructs are immune.

    The real question is - what happens if all the worms survive, but are forcibly separated? Do they each begin to reproduce and work on a new body? How does the intellect decide which body to inhabit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I have an interesting one from Pathfinder's Fifth Bestiary.

    The Urannag has the following special ability (emphasis added):

    Quote Originally Posted by d20PFSRD
    Exposed Mechanisms (Ex):
    Although an urannag is a construct, it can be harmed by the methods used to disable traps.

    A successful DC 20 Disable Device check targeting an urannag (a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity) deals damage that bypasses the urannag's DR equal to 3d6 + the character's total ranks in Disable Device. Additionally, the urannag is staggered for 1 round (DC 16 Fort negates the staggered condition).
    It's immune to the staggered effect, since constructs are immune to anything which requires a Fortitude save. Despite this, it still has Great Fortitude as one of it's feats....

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky View Post
    It's immune to the staggered effect, since constructs are immune to anything which requires a Fortitude save. Despite this, it still has Great Fortitude as one of it's feats....
    Aren't constructs only immune to Fortitude effects that can't affect objects? Disintegrate works on them just fine, for instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Aren't constructs only immune to Fortitude effects that can't affect objects? Disintegrate works on them just fine, for instance.
    The wording from the bestiaries is "immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." Source

    So a construct is affected by disintegrate, yes, but the Exposed Mechanisms special quality doesn't work on objects, so the Urannag is immune.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    Well the weirdness with finding other worms is that presumably the worms in a Worm that Walks are somehow different from your garden variety worm, so it's unclear whether they could "infect" the offspring.

    Also, if they really are made of worms, how do they inflict damage on engulfed opponents? It's something I never understood.

    In terms of actual rules, what does it mean when it says that when discorporated vermin "are treated no differently from other vermin"? They have no stats, so can they even be killed in the first place?
    Well the idea is that the worms and stuff are magic by virtue of having consumed the magic in the corpse of the wiz/sorc/whatever. That's why the ritual to create one is a percentage based on how many unused spells the character had when they died. And magic is magic so the offpsring are also magic I guess? That's at least sort of consistent with the rest of the universe.

    As far as the engulf goes at least some of the worms are actually maggots, so that's where your damage comes from.

    And for 'treated no differently' I assume they mean can be effected by the same kind of things normal vermin can? Which is pretty much nothing except the Vermin Keeper class feature but uh, good to know I guess.
    Last edited by nailbudday; 2017-01-10 at 02:20 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The real question is - what happens if all the worms survive, but are forcibly separated? Do they each begin to reproduce and work on a new body? How does the intellect decide which body to inhabit?
    Going to say this can be explained by souls being unable to spread across all bodies. The Worm That Walks is an aberration/undead right?
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Shadowstriker's third level ability lets you shoot a wave of energy that deals increased damage when you spend turn or smite uses. The maximum boost is set at +Sd8 damage.
    We'll just check the errata on this and we see... that they made it less powerful but didn't address the cap.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Shugenja gets 4 0th level spells of their element.

    Each element only has 4 spells.

    So you either pick one extra, or leave one blank.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Shugenja gets 4 0th level spells of their element.

    Each element only has 4 spells.

    So you either pick one extra, or leave one blank.
    Maybe I'm missing something, and I'm away from books at the moment, but I'm not seeing the problem.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    A shugenja gets four (five if we count the order spell) 0 level spells at 1st level, but only half of his spells known have to match his favored alignment. So 2 of his spells MUST match the element but the other two can be whatever they want.

    Although looking at Complete Divine, it says that a shugenja can "cast spells without preparing them ahead of time, as a wizard or cleric must" which is not only confusing rules-wise since wizards and clerics ARE prepared casters, but also syntactically weird with the use of must.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    Although looking at Complete Divine, it says that a shugenja can "cast spells without preparing them ahead of time, as a wizard or cleric must" which is not only confusing rules-wise since wizards and clerics ARE prepared casters, but also syntactically weird with the use of must.
    It makes perfect sense, although it is indeed oddly worded. A shugenja can cast spells without preparing them ahead of time. Wizards and clerics are examples of classes that prepare spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Martial Monk can take any fighter bonus feat without qualifying for it. (Dragon #310, page 45)

    Spoiler: Text from Dragon #310
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    Martial Monk

    Gain: Fighter bonus feat list to choose monk bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level); Intimidate is a class skill.

    Lose: -1 skill point per level (and -4 skill points at 1st level); no Knowledge skills as class skills.

    Multiclass Options: This monk can multiclass between fighter and monk with no penalty.

    They then go on to provide a sample Martial Monk.

    Half-Elf
    Monk 2/Fighter 2
    BAB +3
    Str 14 | Dex 15 | Con 12 | Int 10 | Wis 14 | Cha 8
    Feats: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff)


    Now, what does the Monk's description say about qualifying for monk bonus feats?

    "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them."

    "But surely that applies only for the six monk feats, not the fighter bonus feats as well!", you may say.

    Ten points to Gryffindor if you can find which feat the sample character can't have possibly gotten without being exempted from its prerequisites.

    Spoiler: The Answer
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    Spring Attack
    Prerequisites
    Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4

    The sample monk/fighter has a BAB of +3 and thus can only have Spring Attack if the prerequisite was waived.


    Let's go back to that part about not needing ANY of the prerequisites.

    You can take any Fighter bonus feat at first level, and second level, and sixth level.

    Abuses:
    -TWF/ITWF/GTWF by level 6 instead of +11 BAB and 19 Dex
    -Whirlwind Attack at level 1 without the enormous feat tax
    -Robilar's Gambit at level 1 instead of +12 BAB
    -Defensive Sweep at level 1 instead of +15 BAB

    There are many more ways to abuse this.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Allanimal View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something, and I'm away from books at the moment, but I'm not seeing the problem.
    Once shugenja reaches level 9 this number changes to 5 0th level spells of their element. There are only 4 spells within the element, so they have to either break focus or have an empty slot. The order spell can't help, because that is tracked separately.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Martial Monks are actually a rare thing, where two dysfunctions cancel each other out. All sample characters are terrible and frequently aren't following the rules. Martial Monks accidentally qualify for feats they shouldn't. The result: a sample character that accidentally qualifies for the feat they shouldn't have.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by SirNibbles View Post
    Abuses:
    -TWF/ITWF/GTWF by level 6 instead of +11 BAB and 19 Dex
    -Whirlwind Attack at level 1 without the enormous feat tax
    -Robilar's Gambit at level 1 instead of +12 BAB
    -Defensive Sweep at level 1 instead of +15 BAB

    There are many more ways to abuse this.
    I don't see how having a feat you can't use for many levels is an abuse.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    I don't see how having a feat you can't use for many levels is an abuse.
    Oh, don't give me the 'Monks can't actually use Stunning Fist because they don't meet the prerequisites' argument.

    Specific trumps general in the case of rules. The general rule is you can't use a feat if you don't have the prerequisite. Monk's specific rule overrides that.
    Last edited by SirNibbles; 2017-01-17 at 09:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by SirNibbles View Post
    Oh, don't give me the 'Monks can't actually use Stunning Fist because they don't meet the prerequisites' argument.

    Specific trumps general in the case of rules. The general rule is you can't use a feat if you don't have the prerequisite. Monk's specific rule overrides that.
    The monk's rules allow them to ignore prerequisites when selecting the feats:
    A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
    But has no rules allowing them to ignore prerequisites when using the feats:
    Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.
    A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
    So there is no specific trumping general, and monks can't use most of their bonus feats without taking Combat Expertise.
    Last edited by zergling.exe; 2017-01-17 at 09:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetaMyconid View Post
    What do you mean it's not that great?

    It lets you reload your greatsword.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Neutral Evil is Evil untainted by concern over Law or Chaos. It is Evil in its purest form, much like NG is Good in its purest form, LN is Law in its purest form, and CN is murderhoboing in its purest form.


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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    It makes perfect sense, although it is indeed oddly worded. A shugenja can cast spells without preparing them ahead of time. Wizards and clerics are examples of classes that prepare spells.
    Oh. Yeah that makes way more sense. I read that sentence like 5 times and didn't pick up on 'as a wizard...' being a modifier for preparing. Whoops.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    Once shugenja reaches level 9 this number changes to 5 0th level spells of their element. There are only 4 spells within the element, so they have to either break focus or have an empty slot. The order spell can't help, because that is tracked separately.
    On the other hand. This is easily fixed by rounding the half down instead of up; if we take the third number of spells as the favored element suddenly the problem goes away. So close to being okay, and yet... not. Also, what happens if a level one shugenja has 12 Cha? He gets an extra 1st level spell, but is it a favored element spell or a free spell?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    On the other hand. This is easily fixed by rounding the half down instead of up; if we take the third number of spells as the favored element suddenly the problem goes away. So close to being okay, and yet... not. Also, what happens if a level one shugenja has 12 Cha? He gets an extra 1st level spell, but is it a favored element spell or a free spell?
    The problem is that there's no rounding occurring whatsoever. If you crack open Complete Divine, Shugenja has a set table dictating exactly how many of the element and how many outside of the element they can learn. There's no way around the 5 you must have.

    If a level one shugenja has 12 Cha he's destined for a life of hardship. His extra 1st level spell is an extra slot. You can't get more spells known from high Charisma.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    The problem is that there's no rounding occurring whatsoever. If you crack open Complete Divine, Shugenja has a set table dictating exactly how many of the element and how many outside of the element they can learn. There's no way around the 5 you must have.

    If a level one shugenja has 12 Cha he's destined for a life of hardship. His extra 1st level spell is an extra slot. You can't get more spells known from high Charisma.
    It's a problem because there's rounding. I'm aware that there's a table but that table is functionally irrelevant because the text specifies that half of a shugenja's spells for a level have to be from their favored element, and Wizards rounded up on the half. The table is just so player's don't have to think too hard about it or question which half gets put into the element when there's an odd number. You're right about the slot though, I've yet again failed to remember how extra slots for a high casting stat work.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Not sure if dysfunctional, but Discern Shapechanger got reprinted in 3.5 books thrice and not once did people remember to change 'shapechanger type' to 'shapechanger subtype'.
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Not sure if dysfunctional, but Discern Shapechanger got reprinted in 3.5 books thrice and not once did people remember to change 'shapechanger type' to 'shapechanger subtype'.
    I mean, the spell just doesn't work at all. I'd call that a dysfunction for sure.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Under the section for flight as a monster ability, it mentions a flying monster can make a dive attack dealing double damage, but restricted to claws or talons. Certain flying creatures, such as Dire Bat or Arrowhawk, lack these attacks, so cannot make the dive.

    The Blackguard has an ability to gain a "Medium-size skeleton or zombie" with enough previous levels in paladin which gains bonuses as a fiendish servant. Ignoring the vagueness being ripe for exploitation, bonuses as a fiendish servant include additional d8 HD.

    Undetectable alignment conceals the alignment of a paladin from divination. However, the aura of good is a separate feature and will trigger detect good regardless of undetectable alignment.
    Last edited by The Viscount; 2017-01-22 at 03:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    So a 19th level expaladin/blackguard can have a 10 hit die human zombie. With the empathic sense and communicate with master. In addition, when it dies (and it will), the blackguard has to wait a year and a day to replace it. Just in case you want another instead of casting Animate Dead on a 10 headed hydra or something.

    In unrelated news I am unable to find any references that call out the confused condition as being mind affecting. So EX abilities that cause confusion should affect mindless and Mind Blanked targets.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I didn't clarify in my original post, the problem is that you are adding d8 HD to undead, which should receive d12s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    This may have been mentioned and shot down before, but I'm just gonna flag it for consideration to see the thought processes of other people.

    The Versatile Spellcaster Feat from Races of Dragon:

    Spoiler: Versatile Spellcaster
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    Versatile Spellcaster [General]
    You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.

    Prerequisite:
    Ability to spontaneously cast spells

    Benefit:
    You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.


    So RAI is, take this feat and a Sorceror or some other spontaneous spellcaster losses 2 spell slots from his own spells known list to cast a spell of one level higher that he knows. But what if you're multiclassed between 2 spontaneous casting classes? Should a Sorc/Favored Soul be able to sacrifice a spell from each of his level 2 spells known lists to cast one spell from either of his level 3 lists?

    Also, I would like to know what other people think of this feat allowing a level 9 wizard/level 1 sorcerer to spontaneously lose memorized wizard spells to cast higher level wizard spells. I expect this isn't possible due to there being a difference between memorized and known spells, but the PHB says "unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells..." (pg. 57 top left corner). I can also see a discrepancy with burning memorized spell slots, saying that you don't have that spell slot anymore until you sleep and get it back because you spent it to memorize a spell. But what if I voluntarily decide not to memorize spells, could I then use this feat to cast any of my spells known at will as long as I wanted to burn unused spell slots?
    Last edited by Catarang; 2017-01-23 at 08:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Catarang View Post
    But what if you're multiclassed between 2 spontaneous casting classes? Should a Sorc/Favored Soul be able to sacrifice a spell from each of his level 2 spells known lists to cast one spell from either of his level 3 lists?
    Rules Compendium says no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catarang View Post
    Also, I would like to know what other people think of this feat allowing a level 9 wizard/level 1 sorcerer to spontaneously lose memorized wizard spells to cast higher level wizard spells. I expect this isn't possible due to there being a difference between memorized and known spells, but the PHB says "unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells..." (pg. 57 top left corner). I can also see a discrepancy with burning memorized spell slots, saying that you don't have that spell slot anymore until you sleep and get it back because you spent it to memorize a spell. But what if I voluntarily decide not to memorize spells, could I then use this feat to cast any of my spells known at will as long as I wanted to burn unused spell slots?
    As far as I can tell, the feat doesn't say it changes anything about the spellcasting process other than what spell slots you spend, so a Wizard should still have to prepare the spell normally, she'd just be able to do it in two lower-level slots instead of a higher-level one.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Errr, does that still qualify as a dysfunction?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I don't think so.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    In the category "Feats that contradict the rule they concern":

    The feat "Pebble Underfoot" (from Dragon Compendium) gives the following advantage:

    "When attempting to trip a creature at least two size categories larger than you, you gain a +4 bonus on opposed trip checks. If you fail to trip the creature, it cannot immediately attempt to trip you."

    Problem is, from the basic rules on Trip attacks: "You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller."

    Pebble Underfoot says nowhere that it allows to trip creatures bigger than the normal rules permit, just seeming to assume it's already possible. So you get a bonus to trip creatures that are too big to be tripped.
    Last edited by St Fan; 2017-01-24 at 06:58 PM.
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    DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
    PC: Excuse me, what?
    DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.


    "Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."

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