Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

[Jormengand]

Yeah I understand that. You've said that several times. That's why I mentioned it in the last post: I'd always assumed auras registered from where the spell was cast and not the entire area of a spell in effect, which quite neatly fixes the problem you propose, allows the 'determine location' portion to function properly instead of just returning "the aura is somewhere around here but I can't tell you where" and is why I kept mentioning the caster. Unfortunately for both of us it doesn't actually say how/from where auras register so. Maybe dysfunctional, my money is on not, but it should still go in the handbook given that we can't actually know given what little the spell tells us.

Check the magic aura spell again. Magic auras register on the subject of the spell, not the caster. In Detect Magic's case, that's the entire area of the detect magic spell.

[nailbudday]

Check the magic aura spell again. Magic auras register on the subject of the spell, not the caster. In Detect Magic's case, that's the entire area of the detect magic spell.

Subject: A creature affected by a spell

I'd hardly call the area of Detect Magic a creature.

[Jormengand]

I'd hardly call the area of Detect Magic a creature.

Nor the target of Magic Aura, but it calls that a subject too.

[nailbudday]

Nor the target of Magic Aura, but it calls that a subject too.

No it doesn't say that at all. It says that the target object registers as the subject of a spell of your choosing, not that 'the aura of the subject changes'.

[Jormengand]

No it doesn't say that at all. It says that the target object registers as the subject of a spell of your choosing, not that 'the aura of the subject changes'.

Yes, that's what I mean. But it couldn't be the subject of a spell of your choosing if it's not an object, right?

That, or subjects are just the things affected by spells, and the definition is wrong or doesn't apply to every instance of the word "Subject".

[nailbudday]

Let's say I have a spell. This spell reads: "Target object appears to detect spells as if it were a summoned Evil Outsider with 11 HD" This makes it ping on Detect Evil as a strong aura and Detect Magic as if it were a Conjuration spell. This does not make it a summoned Evil Outsider with 11 HD. Similarly, even if Magic Aura makes it appear to detect spells as the subject of a spell of your choice, this doesn't actually make it the subject of that spell nor does it mean that the definition of subject is incorrect because it's not a creature.

And even beyond that I've already agreed that this belongs in the handbook since it's ambiguous if detect magic registers itself and the fact that we're arguing proves that something isn't working properly

[Troacctid]

Jormengand is absolutely right on this one. Detect Magic definitely detects itself.

[Telok]

You can look at it this way too; if you only detect the target or source of a spell (point, creature, etc.) then you can't detect spells that just fill areas, like Silent Image. If you can detect the area of a spell effect then the area of Detect Magic gets detected because it's filled with a magical effect.

[Uncle Pine]

Really? I don't care, because it detects magical auras which are given out by spells, not magical creatures. Detect magic is itself a spell.

I didn't think about it that way and thought you based the dysfunction on the fact that the spell originated from the wrong origin point. That wasn't the case, so now that I got your point I agree that Detect Magic can detect itself.

EDIT: A new dysfuncion, assuming it hasn't already been spotted: depending on how you parse this sentence you can't dispel SLAs that aren't subject to SR.

Spell-like abilities are subject to being dispelled by dispel magic and to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates is subject to spell resistance.

[The Viscount]

Fossergrim and Sirines are both aquatic creatures that are mentioned as moving about on land. Both lack any sort of ability to allow them to breathe air.

[Flickerdart]

Fossergrim and Sirines are both aquatic creatures that are mentioned as moving about on land. Both lack any sort of ability to allow them to breathe air.

Well, you can hold your breath for twice your Constitution score in rounds...

[Morphic tide]

Here's a dysfunction I just found in Pathfinder: Bloodrager doesn't specify class restrictions on casting during a Bloodrage. So you can totally go Bloodrager 4 into any other caster and do casting during a Rage without material components. Bloodrage also doesn't work with Rage Powers, which damages half-orc Sythesist/Bloodragers by not letting them use their two Rage Powers from a half-orc Summoner archetype.

Overall, you can be a Bloodrager Magus and smash many, many faces with your angry melee caster. Or a Bloodrager/Scrollmaster to be a wizard whacking people with newspapers scrolls while really, really angry.

[Hish]

I think I have two more dysfunctions from the phb
First, Symbol of Death requires "powdered diamond and opal with a total value of at least 5,000 gp each." So does that mean 5,000 gp split between diamond and opal, or 5,000 gp of each?
Second, in regards to Web, fire can burn the web away at 5 sq ft per round. But a 5 foot square is 5 feet in each dimension, so they are 25 sq ft. So it actually takes 5 rounds to clear each square.

[nailbudday]

I think I have two more dysfunctions from the phb
First, Symbol of Death requires "powdered diamond and opal with a total value of at least 5,000 gp each." So does that mean 5,000 gp split between diamond and opal, or 5,000 gp of each?
Second, in regards to Web, fire can burn the web away at 5 sq ft per round. But a 5 foot square is 5 feet in each dimension, so they are 25 sq ft. So it actually takes 5 rounds to clear each square.

I think the diamond and opal thing means that you need 5000 gp of diamond, and 5000 gp of opal, but that you can combine multiple piles of powder to total 5000 for either if that makes any sense. So you don't have to find a diamond worth 5k and powder it, but you could find 5 1k diamonds and powder them to meet the requirement. Same for the opal.

[Jormengand]

Throw anything requires "Proficiency with weapon" but it doesn't require you to choose one specific type of weapon when taken.

[Inevitability]

Here's a dysfunction I just found in Pathfinder: Bloodrager doesn't specify class restrictions on casting during a Bloodrage. So you can totally go Bloodrager 4 into any other caster and do casting during a Rage without material components. Bloodrage also doesn't work with Rage Powers, which damages half-orc Sythesist/Bloodragers by not letting them use their two Rage Powers from a half-orc Summoner archetype.

Overall, you can be a Bloodrager Magus and smash many, many faces with your angry melee caster. Or a Bloodrager/Scrollmaster to be a wizard whacking people with newspapers scrolls while really, really angry.

How is this dysfunctional? It's a class feature that also benefits multiclass characters, that's hardly unprecedented.

Or would you say a Duskblade's free Combat Casting feat is dysfunctional, because you can use it even if you're casting spells from another class?

[Kurald Galain]

Here's a dysfunction I just found in Pathfinder: Bloodrager doesn't specify class restrictions on casting during a Bloodrage.

The ability literally says "While bloodraging, he can cast and concentrate on only his bloodrager spells (see below); spells from other classes cannot be cast during this state." So I have no idea where you're getting this from.

[The Viscount]

Throw anything requires "Proficiency with weapon" but it doesn't require you to choose one specific type of weapon when taken.

Since the feat title uses "anything" that seems to line up. Also it does restrict you to weapons you are proficient with.

[Jormengand]

Since the feat title uses "anything" that seems to line up. Also it does restrict you to weapons you are proficient with.

Well, no, it doesn't really do anything at all, assuming everyone is proficient with (at least one) weapon. It was clearly written by someone who was expecting the feat to work with a specific weapon chosen by you.

[Uncle Pine]

Well, no, it doesn't really do anything at all, assuming everyone is proficient with (at least one) weapon. It was clearly written by someone who was expecting the feat to work with a specific weapon chosen by you.

It does something, at the very least. Normal bears don't qualify for it.

[Jormengand]

It does something, at the very least. Normal bears don't qualify for it.

Bears are proficient with weapon. They can use their own natural weapons, specifically.

("Proficient with weapon" sounds like some kind of meme. I'm going to say it is now.)

[The Viscount]

Bears are proficient with weapon. They can use their own natural weapons, specifically.

("Proficient with weapon" sounds like some kind of meme. I'm going to say it is now.)

So the dysfunction is that it lets bears throw their paws? I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just not clear on what's dysfunctional, or what it should be.

[Bucky]

Pathfinder's Tetori Monk archetype uses its monk level instead of BAB for grapple checks. This makes it a fine option as a grappler package despite not being full BAB.

On the other hand, it means you completely ruin your ability to grapple if you dip Tetori, since you're stuck with an effective BAB of +1.

[Jormengand]

So the dysfunction is that it lets bears throw their paws? I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just not clear on what's dysfunctional, or what it should be.

The feat has a prerequisite which is pointless. It's clearly designed as though the person who wrote it wanted it to work for one specific weapon chosen when you take the feat, except that it's not written that way.

[nailbudday]

What makes it extra weird is that the Sword and Fist version doesn't have any proficiency requirement, so they felt like they needed to update it in Complete champion.

I guess it could be that since the Sword and Fist version just says "throw any weapon you can use" they wanted to preclude people saying 'well I'm not proficient with my spiked chain but I'm still using it, so I can throw it!', but they could have just mentioned that in the benefits section of the CC version(which they did) and left it out of the prereqs.

[Kurald Galain]

Pathfinder's Tetori Monk archetype uses its monk level instead of BAB for grapple checks. This makes it a fine option as a grappler package despite not being full BAB.

On the other hand, it means you completely ruin your ability to grapple if you dip Tetori, since you're stuck with an effective BAB of +1.

That's incorrect. You would use the BAB from all your other classes, plus your total levels (not BAB) in monk.

[ShurikVch]

Recently, someone mentioned about the one Rod of Wonder's effects changing a height, but not size, thus turning victim into comical flat creature - like it was just hit with cartoonish anvil

I dunno if it truth or just distilled humor, but I found one similar issue - Shrink Collar:

Regardless of his or her original size, the wearer shrinks to Small size, becoming around 3 feet in height and weighing no more than 60 pounds. None of the creature's other attributes change.

"None of the creature's other attributes change"...
Does it includes Reach and Space?

[Uncle Pine]

I dunno if it truth or just distilled humor, but I found one similar issue - Shrink Collar:"None of the creature's other attributes change"...
Does it includes Reach and Space?

I think attributes in that case refers to ability scores, special attacks, etc. Space, reach and size modifiers are inherently determined by size, so they'd change accordingly to it.

[Bucky]

That's incorrect. You would use the BAB from all your other classes, plus your total levels (not BAB) in monk.

RAW appears to say otherwise.

[Hish]

Bear Warrior from Complete Warrior can turn into a bear when raging or frenzying. The only limit on the uses per day is the uses of rage... Except it's only usable once per day. (Increasing at higher levels)