[Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

[meemaas]

Aha! That's intentional: as noted in aether spark ("if a wand's spell falls into none of the above categories, you cannot use your aether pulse alongside it with this shape") an AoE spell that doesn't deal damage just isn't applicable with the ability, mostly because those spells tend to be extremely varied and hard to future-proof for, regarding effects.

Shame. I had dreams of dropping aoe debuff spells from wands. Guess I'll have to look into the single target debuffs instead. Thanks for the answer. For the life of me, I never noticed that line in the description.

On that note. The Tinker still says it swaps its Clause shape for Aether Spark at level 1. With the change you mentioned on Clause shapes, would that be delayed to level 2 too?

[Roadie]

The change to 24-hour durations fixes the thing that felt a bit off/silly to me about those powers (especially the "you'll always want these turned on" buffs), so hurrah.

Any chance of a mini-archetype eventually that changes some or a bunch of stuff from (Sp) to (Su) with some kind of penalty included (slower CL scaling, slower clauses progression, or whatever)? I've noticed a fair number of people using the Avowed so far to represent differently-fluffed characters (dragons, kung fu guys, supernaturally effective warriors, etc) because of how flexible the class is, and it would be interesting to have a mechanical element to support characters using the same elements but that don't thematically go well with getting dispelled in combat.

[Forrestfire]

Shame. I had dreams of dropping aoe debuff spells from wands. Guess I'll have to look into the single target debuffs instead. Thanks for the answer. For the life of me, I never noticed that line in the description.

On that note. The Tinker still says it swaps its Clause shape for Aether Spark at level 1. With the change you mentioned on Clause shapes, would that be delayed to level 2 too?

Yes, it should. I just uploaded a change to that to fix it.

The change to 24-hour durations fixes the thing that felt a bit off/silly to me about those powers (especially the "you'll always want these turned on" buffs), so hurrah.

Any chance of a mini-archetype eventually that changes some or a bunch of stuff from (Sp) to (Su) with some kind of penalty included (slower CL scaling, slower clauses progression, or whatever)? I've noticed a fair number of people using the Avowed so far to represent differently-fluffed characters (dragons, kung fu guys, supernaturally effective warriors, etc) because of how flexible the class is, and it would be interesting to have a mechanical element to support characters using the same elements but that don't thematically go well with getting dispelled in combat.

We don't have any plans of doing that; the SLA mechanics are fairly core to the balance of the class, and even when refluffing, it's just as easily arguable that, say, their particular brand of kung fu magic can be disrupted by another mage. We'll be discussing this in Avowed 2's SkyMarket section, which will be a guide to refluffing the avowed and its subsystem. It might be an idea we'll consider down the line, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Kymera]

Feats: Steel's Betrayal: The problem with this feat is that it suffers from the same issue that makes Power Atttack underpowered, and making it more like Power Attack doesn't solve that. Yea, the damage bonus is a bit higher, but it's still trading attack bonus for an amount of damage proportional to the amount of attack bonus lost, with no other scaling. This still means that, on a feat that's purely a damage boost, and thus not even worth a look for non-strikers, the better striker you are, the worse deal this feat is. to fix that, it'll pretty much have to have some scaling that depends on how much other damage boosts the person has on that attack, to counteract the effective negative scaling that comes from those same boosts increasing the costs of each hit that is turned into a miss by the atk penalty.

[Mezzaluna]

Great to see the new update!
A few things stand out to me about some of the Betrothed options, though.

Class Skills
Since there's no mention of any ability for the companion to get traits, getting extra class skills on the companion is a bit annoying, since you'll need the Additional Traits feat.
The Summoner's Eidolon has "In addition, at 1st level, the summoner can choose 4 additional skills to be class skills for his eidolon", could the Betrothed companion have something like that?

Old One Pact
1) Sacrificing HP to summon spawn leads to interesting risky gameplay, and later in the game could often bring about 'Avowed/Companion goes into the negatives and falls unconscious, then the spawn disappears after X rounds, and they heal and get back up'.
Is there any chance of being able to pre-emptively dismiss the spawn if you really need the healing? Or at least, have it automatically happen if you're about to die without it?

2) It's not entirely clear whether Spawn take penalties for shooting into melee without Precise Shot. Unless having the Precise Shot feat counts as 'an effect on you'?

3) This is a bit more of a gut feeling but I'm worried that vertigo being a poison effect will leave a lot of enemies immune to it by the time you get it at level 12.

Court Fey Pact
1) I... don't think that many clauses benefit from the spread effect of Glamour.
Center of Attention and Winding Woods already affect an area.
Create Friendship's 'Only one target under the effect at once' interacts very strangely.
Wall of Pain also interacts strangely.
Frightening Pulse, Maddening pulse, Scream, Slumber for Eternity are not explicitly mind-affecting/charm/compulsion and don't benefit (I think? If an effect that causes mental conditions is automatically mind-affecting I may be wrong here)

Bewitch and Roaring Pulse combo very well but on the whole most of the usable options come online quite late. When you first get the ability, Frightening Pulse may be the only thing at all it potentially works with.

2) It's a bit sad the Betrothed version of Court Fey doesn't get the ability to have enemies not realise you used mind-affecting effects on them, that was the most interesting part of Furtive Manipulator to me.

[AlienFromBeyond]

You can still take the Natural Armor customization with Reshape Aspiration? Basically none of the other customizations will come close to it then, for a single feat you can get +6 natural armor to AC during aspiration form, and all the time if you take Impatient Transcendence. On top of that you can keep taking it again and again for another +6 if you so desire. Obviously touch attacks can still get you, but this still seems like a lot of value for one feat, especially if you have some way to apply natural armor to touch attacks (which I've seen but it might have been from a different 3pp).

[MilleniaAntares]

Avowed 1:

Like the Aether Barrage change, plus the whole weapon shape thing.

Shame about removing Aether Circus, but at least Aether Swarm got a buff.

Aether Eruption is neat, better than the feat version.

Aether Grasp's change is also good!

Aether Swarm... the first selection says the swarm can be moved 15 feet, but the second says "instead of 10".

The third selection... can only be used in a turn after I spend a move action to maintain it, right? Or can I maintain as a standard action, deal the extra damage, and then use my move action for something else?

For the clauses, perhaps there's a tag you can use as a shorthand for "This is a permanent effect, though it can be dispelled as normal for a spell-like ability, and you can still dismiss it as a free action."

Eyes of Fate is rather neat!

I like the changes to the feats. Especially the buffs to Merciful Pulse and Spirit Swordsmanship!

Avowed 2:

Aspirant Elemental's Maelstrom class feature indicates "clause save DC", even though it is a pact ability.

Aether Well's third selection can be kinda... funky? In the sense that you will pretty much be setting off beams of [insert flavor here] every time you fight outdoors... Maybe some kind of height limit would be good? Or at least letting the avowed lower the maximum height.

The Artificer's Insight clause still uses the old 24 hour duration.

Trash Pulse is pretty funny...

For Aether Skirmisher, I forgot to add in Ride-by Attack to my suggestions... Just a thought!

Corona is neat! And also strange...

Also, what's with Extra Smite?

You can still take the Natural Armor customization with Reshape Aspiration? Basically none of the other customizations will come close to it then, for a single feat you can get +6 natural armor to AC during aspiration form, and all the time if you take Impatient Transcendence. On top of that you can keep taking it again and again for another +6 if you so desire. Obviously touch attacks can still get you, but this still seems like a lot of value for one feat, especially if you have some way to apply natural armor to touch attacks (which I've seen but it might have been from a different 3pp).

Shifting feats can provide natural armor as part of one's touch DC, though I'm not sure of how the interaction will work... plus the work isn't published yet.

That said, perhaps each customization could only be taken once per feat?

[AlienFromBeyond]

Shifting feats can provide natural armor as part of one's touch DC, though I'm not sure of how the interaction will work... plus the work isn't published yet.

That said, perhaps each customization could only be taken once per feat?

Even with taking it once that's still a double strength Improved Natural Armor that also lets you pick 2 other customizations. I think it needs to be excluded from the feat entirely just like Expertise is.

Might we see an initiating archetype for the Avowed similar to what we have for the Kineticist in the Roil Dancer? Or barring that, rules for Variant Multiclass of Avowed so we could build our own by taking it with an initiating class (or hell a Soulknife VMC Avowed could be really cool too!)?

[khadgar567]

Love the sell your soul stuff but i think you can boost their abilities like using binded soul for knowledge or if its caster its spell casting abilities

[Mithril Leaf]

Is there any particular reason that the amazing ability of Hellfire Talent needs to be locked behind the fluff of damnation feats? I have no issue with the crunch of paying multiple feats and being harder to raise, but it's really good and you can't take if it you are also good.

[Taveena]

Is there any particular reason that the amazing ability of Hellfire Talent needs to be locked behind the fluff of damnation feats? I have no issue with the crunch of paying multiple feats and being harder to raise, but it's really good and you can't take if it you are also good.

Because the release is themed around damnation and the results thereof - this was primarily intended as a spell-like counterpart to the Maleficium feat, as Avowed cannot benefit from that, rather than a universal improvement. If you want to play a Good character with this feat, then the Penitent has a racial trait which allows that.

[Barstro]

This looks very interesting and I'm sure that several builds will enter my mind as I read this more.

At present, I am reading about Shapes and have a question;

Aether Retaliation;

3rd Selection: When you use the area-of-effect version of this shape, you can choose to affect everything within 10feet of you instead.
4th Selection: A creature hit by your aether retaliation (if you used it to attack) or that fails its Reflex save (if you used the area-of-effect version) is pushed 5 feet directly away from you by the energy.

What happens (4th Selection) if there is someone in melee who fails the save(A), but someone behind him who makes the save(B)?
1) Nothing, because there was as solid object preventing A from moving back?
2) New check against A with some sort of negative to be pushed through B?
3) New check against B, but with a negative on the save because B is effected by both Aether Retaliation AND A being pushed into him?
4) Something else?

[KillingAScarab]

This looks very interesting and I'm sure that several builds will enter my mind as I read this more.

At present, I am reading about Shapes and have a question;

Aether Retaliation;


What happens (4th Selection) if there is someone in melee who fails the save(A), but someone behind him who makes the save(B)?
1) Nothing, because there was as solid object preventing A from moving back?
2) New check against A with some sort of negative to be pushed through B?
3) New check against B, but with a negative on the save because B is effected by both Aether Retaliation AND A being pushed into him?
4) Something else?

I'm inclined to treat this like a bull rush combat maneuver. Target A could potentially be pushed even with target B, but target B must also be pushed and there would be a check of some sort with a modifier to make it less likely to move target B out of the way. Movement into a solid object or obstacle would be disallowed, though if I was feeling very D&D 4th edition that day, perhaps damage equal to a ten foot fall could be rolled for the collision.

[meemaas]

In regards to Aether Channel, I'm sure I'm reading it right, but I can be hopeful otherwise. If say, you're making a full attack with a weapon, and adding a bite attack (such as from race), is every attack cut to half your Aether Pulse damage, or just the bite? I'm hoping it was intended to be just the bite, because otherwise, natural attacks are completely pointless to use with it at any level.

[MilleniaAntares]

In regards to Aether Channel, I'm sure I'm reading it right, but I can be hopeful otherwise. If say, you're making a full attack with a weapon, and adding a bite attack (such as from race), is every attack cut to half your Aether Pulse damage, or just the bite? I'm hoping it was intended to be just the bite, because otherwise, natural attacks are completely pointless to use with it at any level.

Only the secondary natural attacks have their damage halved.

[Sayt]

Only the secondary natural attacks have their damage halved.

Don't natural weapons become secondary when used in conjunction with manufactured weapons?

[AlienFromBeyond]

For the Old One Pact and specifically the Attunment ability, it says "If you use an ability score other than Constitution to determine your hit points, you also use that ability score instead of Constitution to determine the healing gained." If you use Charisma to determine your hit points, would Embodiment of Aether then let you use Strength instead if you wanted?

[Forrestfire]

Only the secondary natural attacks have their damage halved.

It very definitely hits the whole aether channel with the halving. At early and mid levels, the extra damage (and debuff chance/proc) from the natural weapon will often be enough to make up for that, and at later levels, one focusing on natural weapons will likely want to invest in getting more of them.

Also, I've just uploaded a new version of the Avowed 1 doc; only one change this time except some grammar fixes: Aether Duelist no longer halves ability modifiers to damage with the avowed's main hand aether blade and aether barrage. We feel we overnerfed that and wanted to put that buff in place so people aren't out of luck with TWF until the next larger push.

Will post a larger response to more peoples' concerns in a bit, hopefully.

[meemaas]

Well. That is kinda disappointing. I'm working on a self pact Avowed with the Vampire template from Lords of the Night and was trying to figure out if it would even be worth it to use the natural weapons granted. That puts it very clearly into the not worth it pile

[Nyaa]

Self pact avowed already have more than enough extra attacks imo. One from pact at level 1, one from aether channel at 4, and another one from pact at 8.

[Grand Arbiter]

I'm going applying for a PBP game with an Avowed, (which is totally awesome by the way), and wanted to ask if I may post the sheet here? I'd appreciate help to make sure I don't make a mess of it.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Is there something I'm missing about the Elemental Pact ability Elemental Ally that makes it worth using? Effectively doing a slam +9 (1d8+7) with an Earth Elemental as a swift action at level 12 is absolute garbage, it needs 15+ to hit basically anything of equal CR for crap damage. On top of that it can't do any other actions so can't do AoOs or anything useful, and this just gets worse as you level and can summon bigger elementals. No enemy should even bother attacking them because they're zero threat, the most they can end up doing is getting in the way, and for one turn of one enemy at most. Almost anything else is a better use of your swift action.

[Kaidinah]

Is there something I'm missing about the Elemental Pact ability Elemental Ally that makes it worth using? Effectively doing a slam +9 (1d8+7) with an Earth Elemental as a swift action at level 12 is absolute garbage, it needs 15+ to hit basically anything of equal CR for crap damage. On top of that it can't do any other actions so can't do AoOs or anything useful, and this just gets worse as you level and can summon bigger elementals. No enemy should even bother attacking them because they're zero threat, the most they can end up doing is getting in the way, and for one turn of one enemy at most. Almost anything else is a better use of your swift action.

I think part of its usefulness is that you can drop a flanking elemental anywhere you (or your party) might need it. Still a little situational, but there are certain parties that would really appreciate this.

[Sayt]

Y'know, looking at it, the Celestial pact could combo quite well with the Holy Vindicator PRC, I'm just not sure how well/even if it's possible to get it working.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I think part of its usefulness is that you can drop a flanking elemental anywhere you (or your party) might need it. Still a little situational, but there are certain parties that would really appreciate this.

For a level 12 ability that seems incredibly underwhelming.

[MilleniaAntares]

The stutter step greater clause is incorrectly marked as a zone. Perhaps this was intended for the adjacent tar trap?

Edit: Looking at aether retaliation... it seems a bit limited to me. Perhaps instead of just melee attacks, how about any offensive action (melee attack, ranged attack, spell) made against the avowed within 5 ft? With, perhaps, an increase to 10 ft from a higher selection?

Edit #2: The fiend aspirant soul gyre's soul-stealing limitation is a bit funky. Perhaps that can be extended to all creatures killed within range, while keeping the mechanical benefits to those over 1/2 the aspirant's HD?

Also, do the soul-stealing abilities work on summoned creatures?

[Mezzaluna]

The Divine Pact's 8th level ability has been bugging me for quite a while, because of how many trap options there are among blessings (and how many of the 1st level ones rapidly fall off in usefulness), so I've looked over it properly and ranked all of them with the knowledge they come online at level 8 and are at-will.

Full details are here:
(Only looked at the pfsrd entries, I hear Healer's Handbook had some nice ones)

Spoiler: Lots of text, no need to read it all

Show

===Pretty good
Charm/Glory: Good, permanent sanctuary. Fairly strong defense if used well, but enemies might make the save too easily later on.
Knowledge: Touch creature, instantly gain knowledge of them. Very good utility, particularly for out of combat or intrigue campaigns.
Liberation: Swift action freedom of movement on self for one round.
Luck: Can get a bit silly out of combat, letting all your allies double roll on every skill check. Probably the strongest choice.
Plant: Swift action to try and entangle opponent hit in melee, at-will.
Trickery: Move action for one mirror image.

===Safely Useful but very unexciting for a level 8 pact ability:
Air: Ranged weapon ignores range increments, makes ranged attacks with no AoO. There's likely a ranged attacker somewhere in your party.
Animal: Decent, gain a natural attack or two, give to the full attacker.
Darkness: Concealment is good, but this is roughly equivalent to Shadow Pact's level 4 ability, except it can be loaned out.
Death: Minor numerical buffs on intimidate and some saves.
Destruction: Scaling 1/2 level permanent weapon damage buff to one ally.
Nobility: +2 on attack, skill or saves on one ally.
Protection: +1 bonus to your own saves and AC, scales very slowly.
Strength: Scaling 1/2 level bonus to your attack rolls if you spend a swift action, and other strength checks.
War: Probably just a permanent +10ft land speed to one ally, other choices are nonscaling +1s

===Situationally Useful
Curse: Open up a battle with a free potential -2 debuff on one struck enemy if they fail a save.
Healing: Free empower on healing spells /you/ cast. Only good for using wands out of battle to reduce attrition, unless you want to multiclass out after 8 levels in avowed.
Madness: Hard to judge. Turn cowered/frightened/panicked/paralyzed enemies against their allies for one round. Very dependent on how well the rest of your party can inflict this.
Repose: Melee touch attack to no-save stagger for one round. If already staggered, no-save sleep one round.
Void: Melee touch to stop opponent speaking for 1 round with no save, staggered on failed save.

===Rarely Useful
Artifice: One weapon can bypass hardness and DR vs constructs and objects. Outclassed by resonance pulse unless you fight many constructs.
Chaotic/Evil/Good/Law: +1d6 vs opposite alignment, aligns weapon to bypass DR
Community: Increase Aid Another to +4. Not very good outside of skill checks or niche builds (Or allowing Zealots)
Rune: Create a trap of 1d6+1/2 level damage in a square.

===Mostly Useless
Earth/Fire/Water/Weather: +1d4 elemental damage on one weapon, never scales.
Magic: CHA to attack on a single ranged attack as standard action.
Scalykind: 1 ally gains 1 +1 natural armor per 5 levels.
Sun: (No action listed?) Blinds enemy for one round on failed save. Strictly worse than Solar Pulse modulation.
Travel: Ignore difficult terrain for 1 round with your swift. Strictly worse than the spider climb modulation.

But the gist is that out of these thirty six domains, only sixteen are generally useful at all, and out of those sixteen I'd only call seven of them fun or interesting enough to be worth it as an 8th level ability. (Luck might even be a bit too strong as an at-will for out of combat.)

All the other divine pact abilities are good, but I feel it's a definite mark against its appeal for any campaign that expects to hit level 8 but not 12.
Your domain choice also affects your sense and attunement, but since those features define how you interact with choices mainly made by the GM or other party members rather than yourself, it would personally factor much less into my choice of domains than the blessings, outside of maybe a Tinker Divine Avowed loading up on specific wands.
It feels like at the moment either you're pigeonholed into one of the few fun domains, or you settle for having a very unexciting level 8 empowerment.


Edit: Completely unrelated question about the Personal Gravity clause -
"You can adjust your frame of reference and how gravity affects you. While this doesn't allow you to fly, you become incredibly light, allowing you to walk on top of difficult terrain, ignoring it completely."

It's not that clear how much of this is fluff and how much is mechanics.
1) Are you lighter for the purposes of say, someone trying to lift you, or walking along thin tree branches?
2) The implication is you ignore difficult terrain because you can effortlessly walk over it: but how does this interact with the Airspace Control clause, which literally makes the air get in your way, or similar effects which have you treat things as difficult terrain because of some supernatural effect rather than the physical condition of the ground?

[MilleniaAntares]

Any thoughts on a Mount-like or Phantom Steed-like clause? Could be useful for overland travel and non-betrothed mounted combat!

[Sayt]

Any thoughts on a Mount-like or Phantom Steed-like clause? Could be useful for overland travel and/or non-betrothed mounted avowed!

I'ma second this, especially seeing as there is a lance shape for eldritch blast.

[MilleniaAntares]

As may have been passed on in IRC, some people aren't sure whether Fist of the Sky's effect can apply off the ground. Perhaps some clarification could be provided?

Personally I think it's obvious that the hand is just a representation of the spell's effect and not a creature, but...

Edit: for problems with Aether Channel/Rounds, I was thinking that perhaps the abilities could benefit from sort of limitation.

Possibilities:

Applies to up to X attacks, dependent on avowed (caster) level. This means the character can use as many weapons as they wish and remain within an acceptable range, while any extra attacks add a smaller amount to DPR. The problem is the variables with expected attacks, given the existence of flurry, TWFing, a hasted attack, and AoOs. Part of this may be helped with Aether Duelist getting an additional function of "do X attacks at full strength, or do X+Y attacks at half strength" and Mystic Reflexes applying the channel boost to AoOs or attacks made outside of your turn.

Applies to one weapon at full strength, or two weapons at half strength. That way the guy who wanted to add bites to his full-attack routine could get full damage Aether Channel with his main weapon, while getting to add in a bite and not have it be a DPR loss.

Applies a static penalty based upon number of weapons used. -2 dice for two weapons, -4 dice for three weapons, or something like that.