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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    So on Pathfinder General in 4chan's traditional games board, mention was made of the betrothed getting to be too strong in the damage dealing department.

    My suggestion is as follows:

    Because the betrothed and her companion share the same power, in a any round that a creature is affected by an effect originating from the betrothed, that creature automatically succeeds on saving throws against the companion’s abilities and effects (and vice-versa). This includes abilities both from the avowed class and other classes, as well as feats and item effects, but does not apply to pulse shapes, the betrothed’s pact empowerments, or the companion’s idealization choices.
    In this section, include a note about a foe taking 1/2 damage from the second of the betrothed/companion who uses an aether pulse on a particular opponent. So if a level 3 Bob the Betrothed uses an unshaped aether pulse, he'll deal 2d4 damage to an orc; if Charlene the Companion then uses aether pulse, then she'll deal 1d4 damage to the same orc, or 2d4 if it's another enemy.

    If they focus a single target in that scenario, they'll end up doing 3d4 damage (7.5 average), as opposed to a regular avowed doing 2d8 (9 avg), or a transformed aspirant (2d8+2; avg 11).

    If you think this nerfs betrothed single target damage too much, then allow something similar to the betrothed descriptor:

    Clauses (Sp): Some clauses gained by a betrothed thanks to their pact have the “betrothed” descriptor. These clauses function like normal clauses, except that both the betrothed and her companion must take the actions simultaneously in order to cast them (its effect only happens once), and if the effect requires concentration, both must spend the actions to concentrate. If either of them fail a concentration check to maintain concentration on a betrothed effect, the effect loses the betrothed descriptor until the beginning of their next turn, at which point they may begin concentrating on the effect again as though they had not been interrupted. [snip] A betrothed and her companion can voluntarily add the betrothed descriptor to a clause by casting it in concert, so long as both the companion and the betrothed are in a valid position to use the effect (range, line of effect, and so on). Only one of them needs to be able to perceive the target or area, and the higher of their clause save DCs is used.
    Only in the case of aether pulses, it would increase their damage to d8s. That way single target damage will be on par with an avowed, but not be capable of getting too high.

    Also, you may wish to limit Overpower Modulation to one use per round.

    Of course, math needs to be done in the case of more complicated shapes, particularly the weapon shapes where static modifiers can skew the proportional damage between betrothed and avowed.

    ---

    As an aside: "However, this power he’s gained comes at a price; when he is not in his aspiration form, he takes a –2 penalty to the save DCs of his avowed class features (including aether pulses, clauses, and pact abilities) except shapes"

    This seems contradictory. Wouldn't shapes be included in aether pulses?

    According to the #pfg channel, you intend for the penalty to apply to modulations but not shapes, so I'd recommend specifying modulations instead of the generic "aether pulses".
    Last edited by MilleniaAntares; 2017-02-28 at 09:29 AM.
    My Homebrew Material, mostly focusing on Dreamscarred Press's Path of War and psionics material!

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    We are aware of the betrothed's issues, and currently discussing how best to solve that, along with other updates for the Avowed 2 playtest. Thanks for posting about it here, though, it's a lot easier to fetch XD

    Tonight, though, we've got an update for the Avowed 1 pdf; there's a couple major adjustments being made to a few options, which I'll detail in this spoiler:

    Spoiler: Discussion on Changes
    Show

    There's three big adjustments being made to the player options in this update: Self Pact has been revised a bit, Aether Channel has been tuned down some, and Overcharge Modulation has been nerfed.

    Self Pact: Punching and dipping a bit too hard.

    Self pact is, overall, a very strong striker package for characters—too strong, originally, thanks to the power of extra attacks combined with aether channel. The way the bonus unarmed strikes worked also locked them into aether channel, generally with just unarmed strikes, which wasn't ideal. Finally, the strong +Cha as an AC bonus made it a phenomenal dip for anyone looking to punch things, which wasn't, strictly, the intended result. The other attunements scale on class level, this one didn't.

    So, the changes made to the Self Pact are aimed to combat these things and bring it down to match similar pacts. Their bonus unarmed strike attacks have been changed—instead of dealing 1d3+Str (+other bonuses+aether channel+magic, etc), they now have a scaling damage roll. The bonus unarmed strike in the attunement, as well as the one from Strength of Body, deal your aether pulse's base damage on a successful hit, without any bonuses (or penalties) being applied. This way, it's basically an extra group of debuff procs (if using aether channel), and consistent bonus damage across any playstyle of melee avowed, rather than being overwhelmingly good with aether channel and awful with everything else. The bonus unarmed strikes from the Self pact also don't reduce your bonus damage to other attacks when using aether channel, though, so it'll be worth using regardless.

    On the note of the dips, the Self pact's attunement has been adjusted. The armor bonus it gives is now limited to 3 + your class level, which will scale up quickly for people who're focusing Cha and taking levels, but only be about as good as a chain shirt otherwise.

    Aether Channel: BAB substitution caused problems.

    This nerf is some news that I'm really sad to give. The aether channel BAB substitution was the first part of channel that got written, but in the end, it's contributed to some major issues with balancing its average and potential damage. We've replaced the second rank of aether channel with a similar bonus to attacks (a scaling enhancement bonus ala greater magic weapon), which should hopefully bring aether channel's explosive pouncecharge potential down to the levels we were intending for it.

    Overcharge Modulation: Too much damage.

    The Overcharge Modulation feat has been reworked thanks to remathing how it interacted with the weapon shapes; it now adds a scaling number of damage dice to your aether pulse, rather than applying a free Empower SLA to the ability. It no longer requires Empower Spell-Like Ability, and functions alongside it, but the general damage that the feat adds will be lower. This change doesn't mean a lot for the AoE shapes, though. They didn't get a lot of bonuses to not multiply, so they're still hitting pretty hard with it.


    If you want to skip that and just know the changelog, that's here:

    Spoiler: Changelog
    Show
    Pacts
    • Elemental pact attunement now stacks with your existing resistance.
    • Elemental pact’s Elemental Ally ability no longer gives you the subtype (generally redundant or actually a downside), and the summoned elemental gets your Cha bonus to its attack roll to keep it relevant.
    • Dragon pact’s 4th and 8th-level ability have had their order swapped, and Dragon pact’s shapeshifting no longer changes ability scores.
    • Nation pact's 4th-level ability has been adjusted to be a more leadery buff for allies.
    • Self pact’s Cha-to-AC capped at 3 + level to make it less of an attractive dip.
    • Self pact’s unarmed strikes have been revised to not strike as overwhelmingly hard, but also to not halve aether channel damage for other weapons.

    Clauses and Shapes
    • A note on how bonuses and Empower SLA work with weapon shapes has been added.
    • Aether channel has had its rules for using multiple weapons tightened and clarified, and its second rank now has a different effect.
    • Aether grasp now adds to CMD when using it.
    • Aether retaliation now notes what happens if you push someone into something (they don’t get pushed).
    • Fist of the sky now notes that it can be used in the air.
    • Insectile transformation no longer adjusts ability scores, nor does it adjust size bonuses or penalties to attacks, AC, CMB, and CMD.

    Feats
    • Embodiment of Aether now notes that it works for avowed bonus feats too.
    • Overcharge Modulation has been adjusted; this is overall a bit of a nerf, but a necessary one—the effect dealt way more damage than was workable.
    • Pactbound Guardian notes what happens now if you already had a familiar (it stacks levels and upgrades the other one)
    • Other
    • Avowed save DCs properly list caster level instead of class level for their scaling. This was intended to be a thing a while ago, but it wasn’t added in.
    • Atstreidi, Eiremian, and Ethumion FCBs added.
    • The Path of War rules notes have been moved to the apprendix; this section will be expanded later—for now, it’s just the iaijutsu stuff.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    We are aware of the betrothed's issues, and currently discussing how best to solve that, along with other updates for the Avowed 2 playtest. Thanks for posting about it here, though, it's a lot easier to fetch XD
    No problem, just wanting to do my part!

    Also, you forgot to mention the Nation Pact changes.
    Last edited by MilleniaAntares; 2017-02-28 at 11:43 PM.
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    That I did. Just added it to the changelog, my bad.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Shouldn't aether channel second selection stack with existing enhancement bonus, like aether rampage's one?

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyaa View Post
    Shouldn't aether channel second selection stack with existing enhancement bonus, like aether rampage's one?
    It's does. It's stated to be Greater Magic Weapon, which by default stacks with existing enhancement bonuses.
    Kitten: *bats around a mini a few times*
    DM: "Ok, it looks like Fluffy...err, 'The Tarrasque'...Full Attacks the Cleric"
    Cleric: "Full attack my a**, that was just two claw attacks!"
    Kitten: *starts gnawing on the mini*
    Cleric: "...nevermind."

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Greater magic weapon overlaps with, rather than stacking with, existing enhancement bonuses. Aether rampage is a unique, powerful ability, while the aether channel equivalent is slightly weaker to account for the fact that channel has a lot more potential damage.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Greater magic weapon overlaps with, rather than stacking with, existing enhancement bonuses. Aether rampage is a unique, powerful ability, while the aether channel equivalent is slightly weaker to account for the fact that channel has a lot more potential damage.
    Right right. Swapped it with Arcane Bond in my head.
    Kitten: *bats around a mini a few times*
    DM: "Ok, it looks like Fluffy...err, 'The Tarrasque'...Full Attacks the Cleric"
    Cleric: "Full attack my a**, that was just two claw attacks!"
    Kitten: *starts gnawing on the mini*
    Cleric: "...nevermind."

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Basically, the adjusted aether channel fills the role of "you know those effects I normally needed to go to wizards for? Yeah, I got it covered."

    Greater magic weapon to keep your enhancement bonus up and allow you to focus on more interesting magic weapons than +X, and haste for the attacks.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Basically, the adjusted aether channel fills the role of "you know those effects I normally needed to go to wizards for? Yeah, I got it covered."

    Greater magic weapon to keep your enhancement bonus up and allow you to focus on more interesting magic weapons than +X, and haste for the attacks.
    Yea I see that. Love the changes to Self pact now. I was on the fence when I first read them, but it really makes it easier to use a shape that isn't Channel with unarmed strikes

    Question. Say I have Hellfire Talent. Does that still apply to the damage of the bonus attacks from Self Pact, or is it strict dice and nothing else?
    Kitten: *bats around a mini a few times*
    DM: "Ok, it looks like Fluffy...err, 'The Tarrasque'...Full Attacks the Cleric"
    Cleric: "Full attack my a**, that was just two claw attacks!"
    Kitten: *starts gnawing on the mini*
    Cleric: "...nevermind."

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Self pact's bonus punches are strictly dice and nothing else.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Self pact's bonus punches are strictly dice and nothing else.
    Good. Wanted to be sure I got that right. Working on an Avowed for a high level campaign and want to get everything right.

    My friends think it's my favorite class because this is the third one I've brought to the table.

    And I have a fourth in the concept stage to upgrade my Tibbit Dragon fire Adept to a new level.
    Kitten: *bats around a mini a few times*
    DM: "Ok, it looks like Fluffy...err, 'The Tarrasque'...Full Attacks the Cleric"
    Cleric: "Full attack my a**, that was just two claw attacks!"
    Kitten: *starts gnawing on the mini*
    Cleric: "...nevermind."

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Greater magic weapon to keep your enhancement bonus up and allow you to focus on more interesting magic weapons than +X
    It sounds good in theory if you have access to magic mart or crafter, but I don't think it's the case in all groups and campaigns. Maybe give it a whitelist of weapon special properties that can be bought with bonuses, like divine bond?

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    So... After some discussion about intuitivity and ease of use issues introduced by this, we're actually changing it to a +1 increase of enhancement bonus per 4 CLs (minimum +1), capping at +5. In the next update, when that happens.

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    I'm a bit concerned with the low DC of the 16th level Flee ability of the Old One pact and the very large boost to save DCs the Embodiment of Aether feat may grant.

    Flee Unlike all other pact empowerments AFAICT, Flee is stuck with a DC that isn't likely to work against anything of a CR equal to or higher than your level with a good Will save progression, even when you've increased the DC as far you realistically can (as single-classed). At 16th level, the typical default save DC for this ability when it's gained will be 27 (10 + 8 level + 9 Cha), while the supposedly average Will save of a CR 16 monster with good progression is +19, resulting in a 35% success chance. And against an average CR 19 monster (a challenging opponent according to guidelines), that success chance is instead only 25%. By taking the Ability Focus (pact abilities) feat, these success chances can be increased to 45% and 35% respectively, but after that it seems the only option to improve these chances is finding some reliable means to debuff your target(s) prior to using the ability. Note also that this does not account for the +3 bonus targets immune to mind-affecting receive, nor any of the many other abilities high CR monsters frequently have which may decrease the chances of success.

    Let's say you're a 16th level avowed with this pact, and that you've invested substantial resources into your capability to demoralize your opponents in combat. For example, you could have the ability to demoralize an opponent you damage as a free action (Black Seraph's Glare gained via Martial Training) together with several highly accurate attacks/round (Spirited Swordsmanship, Aether Rounds, use guns, ranged combat feats), the ability to increase fear effects with multiple demoralize successes (Soulless Gaze, other damnation feat), a very high Intimidate skill bonus, and the ability to sicken scared opponents you hit (Cruel Weapon). If you spend your first turn attacking an "average" CR 16 enemy within 30', it's highly likely that enemy will be frightened and sickened when your turn ends and your Flee ability is activated. So if you also have the Ability Focus feat, the success probability of your Flee ability would be 65% at best (or max 55% vs a CR 19 monster).

    In conclusion, unless I've missed something vital here, I find the default DC as and especially the sole in-class option to increase it to be lacking. Was this intentional, and if so, why?


    Embodiment of Aether An avowed with this feat can boost all save DCs through the roof just by dipping a few levels into other classes, getting a few feats and/or an item or two, as Str is by far the most easily increased ability score. For example, by 18th level the Flee ability of the above avowed with the Old One pact could instead easily have a DC of at least 35 (10 + 8 level + 17 Str) in every round of most combats during a typical adventuring day, giving him at least a 70% success chance against an average CR 18 enemy (55% vs CR 21), or a maximum success chance of 100% (85%) if using the same demoralization combo as above. And this would most likely be the lowest DC ability this "muscle-vowed" has. (Now imagine if this was a grendle with the Imperious Bearing ART... )

    In conclusion, I don't think the Embodiment of Aether feat should grant unrestricted and complete replacement of the default Cha dependence, since a Str mod can be boosted to be about twice as high as a Cha mod even for a PC with all but two levels in the avowed. Or was this difference between Cha and Str taken into account and deemed acceptable when you designed the feat, and if so, what was the rationale behind it?
    Last edited by upho; 2017-03-01 at 02:18 PM.

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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Some upcoming changes were posted on 4chan, but not on here, so... here's hoping I don't get yelled at!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taveena
    Hey, guys. After some fairly intense internal discussion, Forrest and I have sadly decided that Spirited Swordsmanship is going to be cut. It made the class far too single-attribute dependent, especially when combined with all the other things Charisma can be added to with further feat support. We know this is going to suck for a lot of people, and we, personally, were huge fans of the SAD playstyle, but it's proven to be impossible to balance. This should also make Self pact slightly less overwhelming, as they'll need to split their resources between their attacking/damaging stat and their casting/defensive stat, even with Altered Life.
    Related to this, Aether Grasp will now be finessable, so as to avoid an unnecessary feat tax for dexterity builds wanting to dabble in it.

    Further, we'll be reducing their damage dice to d6, like the Warlock, to try to rein in their numbers a bit. This also serves to weaken Overcharge Modulation and Merciful Pulse appropriately. How this will interact with Aspirant and Betrothed, we're not yet certain - but for reasons brought up earlier, we won't be reducing the damage dice to the awfully hard to acquire d3. We'll let you know what we work out, but we won't push this update live until we've sorted that out.

    Finally, we'll be removing Steel's Betrayal for now from the document. While we love the concept, and hope to introduce something similar in the future, its current form is effectively damage with no penalty.

    We're still discussing a lot of other changes, and these are all in flux - and thus, ripe for feedback. As always, we thank you for your feedback, and we are earnestly sorry for any builds we will be disrupting with these balance changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taveena
    Yes. In fact, we'll be buffing Heart of Aether to additionally add your Constitution modifier to Spellcraft, Knowledge (Planes), and Knowledge (Arcana), to compete with Charisma's bonus to social skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taveena
    And because I'm an idiot who forgot to include it, Embodiment of Aether is also being removed for the same reason.

    As Heart of Magic only added Constitution to damage rolls with Spirited Swordsmanship, with Spirited Swordsmanship's removal you can no longer add Charisma or Constitution to attack rolls with the Avowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taveena
    ... You're entirely right. I'm sorry, I was misremembering my own feat entirely.

    Heart of Aether will be rewritten to affect saving throw DCs and give a bonus to the aforementioned skills. Heart of Magic will not be changing. I'm really sorry for the mistake. ><
    The changes are not implemented in the Avowed 2 page, at least.

    I had an idea for turning Embodiment of Aether as an alternate class feature, which I'll include here on the off-chance it's worth bringing back:

    Spoiler
    Show
    The ACF would trade out charisma for strength, vocal components for somatic, and a new weakness: status effects that reduce the avowed's attack (such as shaken, sickened, etc) would also reduce their AC, as the innate magic needs to be directed precisely by movements.

    I figure that perhaps adding in easily exploitable weaknesses would help out with overcoming SAD, but who knows if that's worth doing at this point in time.
    Last edited by MilleniaAntares; 2017-03-03 at 02:14 AM.
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Hah, whoops. Was going to post up here in a larger update tomorrow, but that works too. We have not implemented any changes yet; we still have a decent amount of design discussions and mathing to do before anything goes live.

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Hah, whoops. Was going to post up here in a larger update tomorrow, but that works too. We have not implemented any changes yet; we still have a decent amount of design discussions and mathing to do before anything goes live.
    But we can expect the changes as listed in a general manner right?
    Kitten: *bats around a mini a few times*
    DM: "Ok, it looks like Fluffy...err, 'The Tarrasque'...Full Attacks the Cleric"
    Cleric: "Full attack my a**, that was just two claw attacks!"
    Kitten: *starts gnawing on the mini*
    Cleric: "...nevermind."

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    It's a good thing that Spirited Swordsmanship was cut, with it Avowed faced the same problem as old Harbringer - being nearly entirely SAD. I actually wanted to say exactly this to you. I've made an Devil Pact Avowed NPC for my players to fight last session, and found the class really interesting but a bit too strong for my tastes, and I believe SS was one of the main reasons for that. But I can tell that my players really liked the feeling they got from this guy, even not knowing the specifics about how he mechanically worked.

    Overall, I really love the class, and will continue watching it closely. I always liked 3.5 Warlock, and Avowed has a really similar while being more interesting, at least for me. I haven't really tinkered with the class much yet, I've only made one character for whom I've had a clear concept in my mind, and due to time constraints, I am unlikely to really test it in the nearest future. All I have to say now is that I've enjoyed making the character and enjoyed playing him, even if only for a single fight. Maybe I'll get to some kind of running the numbers and making a write-up on the class when I have more free time but for now I can only offer my first impressions.

    As a side note, I really like the concept of Damnation feats, hopefully we'll see more of those, especially some that are less Avowed-specific.

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Aaaaand here we have a rather large update, involving a lot of changes to the basic framework that avowed optimization runs on. So without further ado, let's get down to business:

    Spoiler: Avowed 1 Changelog
    Show

    Pacts
    • Celestial pact 4th no longer adds a bonus to save DCs.
    • Court Fey pact’s Fetch clause now notes what memories they have.
    • Nation pact 4th now has a clarification on what happens if the allies leave your range.
    • Nation pact 16th has been buffed significantly, since it was previously rather minor.
    • Self pact attunement has been reworked; it now gains some scaling benefits instead of the AC bonus.

    Clauses and Shapes
    • ”Area Shape” is now a tag on some shapes; it means they get more damage (0.5 Cha bonus per selection).
    • Aether Blast’s area has been upped by 5 at all levels (undoing a nerf we’d tried).
    • Both Aether Channel and Aether Rounds have been reworked slightly. Their rank 1 effect is now a damage substitution, and the rank 3 effects now add the full damage.
    • Aether Grasp now allows you to use Dex with it if you have Weapon Finesse (rather than requiring Agile Maneuvers, though that feat will be useful to boost the rest of your combat maneuvers).
    • Aether Wrath is now medium-range at all ranks, and has a new rank 3 and 4.
    • Fly on the Wall has had its Stealth bonus adjusted to properly include its size.

    Feats
    • Embodiment of Aether, Spirited Swordsmanship, and Steel’s Betrayal have been removed. They may return in another form later, but right now they’re no longer a thing.
    • Aetheric Armor’s prerequisite is now Str 17, and it has a different, scaling secondary benefit.
    • Merciful Pulse has been revised. Instead of increasing damage, it adds to save DC when trying to be merciful.
    • Overcharge Modulation requires avowed 3 to take now.

    Other
    • The avowed’s aether pulse now deals damage in d6s instead of d8s.
    • Tinkers can’t get free material component spells anymore when swapping wand spells.
    • Balefire Infusion is now element-agnostic.



    Spoiler: Avowed 2 Changelog
    Show

    Aspirant
    • Dragon and Otyugh pacts added.

    Betrothed
    • Celestial and Divine pacts added.
    • Betrothed and companion aether pulses have been revised significantly.
    • Companions can now pick different shapes than their avowed.
    • Companions now get max HP at their first hit die.
    • A bunch of the companions’ customizations now make some of the supernatural effects you can get as an avowed extraordinary. For example, wings will make a companion’s flight Ex, since it owes to their form, not their magic.

    Clauses and Shapes
    • Aether Beast and the new Aether Circus have been added.
    • Five new modulations have been added.

    Feats
    • Aether Detonation, Aether Hive, and Aether Queen, Legalistic, and Split Loyalties feats added.
    • Hellfire Talent’s bonus damage has been nerfed.
    • The Heart of Aether feat has been removed, and Heart of Magic is now accompanied by a new feat called Body of the Ancients.
    • Of Two Minds now works for creatures gotten through feats (like a Pactbound Guardian).



    Spoiler: Discussion of Changes
    Show

    Embodiment of Aether and Spirited Swordsmanship removed – We’re sad too, but the avowed no longer is.

    The biggest changes you’ll see in the new pdf is that the SAD options are gone. After a lot of feedback and discussion, we’ve decided that this is, overall, contributing to major balance problems with the class, and that it can’t exist in this form. Weapon shape-using avowed will need to go dual stat (Physical + Mental, tertiary Constitution), and “caster” avowed can still be basically SAD (Cha-focused, but less overall damage and more a focus on debuffs, utility, and the like). We believe that the current interaction between modulations and weapon shapes will help soften that blow and keep it playable, while bringing the avowed down somewhat to a more balanced level.

    Another thing to note is that Self pact has lost its Cha to AC. We found it to be too good of a boost, and so, they’ll just need to get a chain shirt or something.

    Heart of Constitution – Fortuitously, this remains.

    Heart of Aether has been removed, and the new feat Body of the Ancients exists to fill a similar niche. With two feats, an avowed can change their casting stat fully to Constitution from Charisma, but they can’t run attacks and damage off of it.

    d6s, Overcharge Modulation, Merciful Pulse, and Channel/Rounds – Damage reductions.

    Next up, you’ll notice that we’ve tuned down the damage of the avowed’s options, particularly Overcharge Modulation and Merciful Pulse, and aether pulses as a whole. Merciful Pulse now has a different effect—rather than bonus damage, it ups your save DC when attacking nonlethally. Overcharge Modulation also has a minimum level on it (3), to keep it from unbalancing low levels.

    Aether Channel and Aether Rounds have also had some adjustments—the base shapes no longer add bonus damage, instead giving something similar to the warpriest’s Sacred Weapon ability. We want Aether Channel to be less dippable, while still being useful, so at low levels, it’ll mean you hit with magic and overcome magical DR/apply debuffs, and at higher levels, it still adds the damage it did before. We’ve also changed the way the multiweapon halving works to be more intuitive, and allow mixed weapons without screwing you too hard on the main hand.

    Betrothed pulse adjustments – More damage reductions.
    The betrothed has an issue: it’s working as intended, but we still missed the mark a bit on its damage. We want the archetype to be a sidegrade, not an upgrade. It’s an archetype, so it should be a change in playstyle rather than a straight boost to the avowed, and right now, it was working as a boost to the avowed’s damage capabilities.

    We’ve adjusted how betrothed aether pulses work to bring them down to par a bit; this doesn’t affect AoE users might at all, but will nerf weapon and barrage shapes a bit.

    Other changes – Some other stuff.

    The rest of the documents have been changed around the above adjustments, as well as small tweaks, such as to Nation pact’s 16th (a buff), Celestial pact’s 4th (a nerf), and a bunch of new stuff added into Avowed 2.

    As always, we hope you enjoy, and look forward to your feedback.

    The Avowed 1 pdf can be found at this link.

    The Avowed 2 document can be found here.

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Thanks a lot for the changes, some were sad but necessary!

    Avowed 1:

    Merciful Pulse doesn't necessarily specify that a clause has to be able to deal damage to benefit from the DC. Might be worth specifying?

    Some comments for Avowed 2:

    Aspirant

    Aspirant's Aether Pulse doesn't seem all too different, besides the nerf to d6 from d8.

    Otyugh aspirant's Share pact ability references clause DCs. For consistency's sake I think it should use pact DC... then again, the base Filth Absorption uses Aether Pulse DC and the betrothed's Sharing and Caring uses the original DC... I guess inconsistency is consistent with these abilities?

    Betrothed

    Betrothed's Aether Pulse, on the other hand, looks really changed! I figured you'd be saving the damage dice nerf for the theoretical PoW archetype.

    "In any round that the betrothed’s companion uses a modulation clause with their aether pulse, the betrothed can only use the same modulation with her own aether pulses."

    You may wish to add in a "vice-versa" to this text.

    Divine betrothed do not have a listed shape. If you can't decide, might I recommend, "Base Form: Any"?

    Growth and Miniscule have been updated and I didn't notice until now! These customizations, while appreciated, don't seem to have level limitations on how many times you can take them, which means the companion can get really big/small really quickly. While certainly the most problematic aspects are gone (typically the stat changes), you might not want to allow a huge companion at level 1.

    Also, Firefox says miniscule should be spelled as minuscule.

    Additional Legs says the companion that takes it becomes a quadruped... which makes sense if a humanoid takes it. However, the image of an amorphous being with two legs - or a snake being with two legs - being treated as a quadruped is kinda... funny? Weird? Maybe it should specify that if the companion gets four legs it's treated as a quadruped.

    Shapes

    Aether Beast's attack deals aether pulse + strength damage. Is it intended for the damage to not change if Deadly Ability is gotten? Looks good otherwise.

    Aether Circus: "A creature or object can make a Reflex save to avowed taking damage from"

    You probably mean "avoid".

    Feats

    Aether Hive has perfect flavor text. Never change.

    Split Loyalty should specify whether or not the companion gains the benefits of the second pact or not.

    The Miniscule customization is not on the Reshape Aspiration blacklist. Is this intentional?
    Last edited by MilleniaAntares; 2017-03-06 at 02:20 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    So, today we have another update, this time some small tweaks to wording and balance in some places, and a total rework of how the skill-boosting clauses function.

    Here are the changelogs for A1 and A2:

    Spoiler: Avowed 1 changelog
    Show
    Pacts
    • Court Fey pact’s attunement now has a sneak attack-lite effect, to help them fulfil their striker role.
    • Court Fey pact sense can sense through walls now.
    • Dragon pact has new stuff added to its attunement, to make it worthwhile compared to other pacts’ attunements.
    • Elemental pact has gotten a fairly big rework. Consolation Flare was moved to level 1, becoming the bulk of the pact’s attunement, since previously, that ability was basically negligible (and vanished at level 12…). The effect also now works on missed aether pulse attacks, but still only 1/round per enemy. In addition, the pact has a new 8th-level ability, No Escape, that allows them to reliably affect some of the more evasive enemies they may face.

    Clauses and Shapes
    • Aether Channel and Rounds note that when using their first rank with Vital Strike/critical hits/etc, it uses the weapon’s original base damage.
    • Aether Swarm’s second rank properly doubles its speed now.
    • The skill booster clauses have been changed (see the discussion spoiler, below)
    • Hidden Knowledge has been split into the Dungeon Crawler, Eldritch Knowledge, Survivalist and Volksgeist clauses.

    Feats
    • Merciful Pulse specifies it only works on damaging clauses.

    Other
    • “Perceive” has been replaced with “see” on most things, because what started as a way to account for other senses became a really awful rules tangle that doesn’t hold up under examination.
    • Pact senses are now noted as requiring line of effect unless otherwise stated. This was the intended function, but it was never directly specified.



    Spoiler: Avowed 2 Changelog
    Show
    Aspirant
    • Elemental Aspirant punches through “they heal from energy damage” now.
    • Otyugh Aspirant’s save DC for the level 4 pact ability now uses its pact save DC.
    • The Giant Size form modification no longer changes your size bonuses/penalties to AC and attack rolls.

    Betrothed
    • Fixed some wording bugs.
    • Divine betrothed is base shape Any.
    • The Arms customization has been replaced with Biped, which now comes with optional legs, but otherwise works the same. Quadruped has been renamed Many-Legged to be more clear what it does.
    • Pincers, Quick Jaws, and Stinger customizations are now immediate actions to proc (letting them be used on AoOs).

    Clauses and Shapes
    • Artificer’s Insight has been reworked along with the skill clauses in A1.



    Avowed 1 can be found here.
    Avowed 2 can be found here.

    And here’s a spoiler with a discussion of the changes:
    Spoiler: Read here first, probably
    Show

    Skill Clauses – Lowered ceiling, reliable floor.

    So, the skill-boosting clauses have been an occasional point of contention for a while now. Whether you thought they were fun, thought they were boring, or felt they should be nerfed, they did have a lot of problems. Our goal with the skill boosters, similar to how the Warlock in 3.5 had them, was to have a set of abilities that feel good to pick. It’s not enough to get something like Bardic Knowledge, which is a slow-scaling ribbon ability. If you pick up silver tongue, you’re giving up a slot that could have been walking on walls, killing mosquitos, shooting lighting from your hands, or blowing things up with a laser. The +6 bonuses, we felt, did that, but that came at a negative cost of game health.

    Our goal with the changes we’ve made to the skill boosters is to make them less centralizing. This has been the goal of most of our recent changes—to make the avowed a class you pick because it’s cool, strong, and you want to use it, rather than one you pick because “oh well, someone in the party had an avowed, I need to use that subsystem too if I want to keep up.” That’s not ideal, and is part of why aether channel and the SAD feats were changed.

    What the skill boosting clauses were meant to do is two things:
    • Enable an avowed who doesn’t have the skill points to invest in a skill to be able to contribute with it, even if it’s not great.
    • Boost an avowed who is focusing on the skill an amount commensurate with the cost.


    The original versions helped the former, but boosted the latter way too hard. The result was an incredibly reliable, very high floor, that far outpaced anyone of other classes. The Legalistic feat was introduced in part to help counteract that, but it still had its own issues—we don’t want to force the party investigator to go “if I can’t beat them, join them” to the avowed. We want the avowed who focuses on skillmonkeying to feel like a good skillmonkey, without making all the other skillmonkeys regret their choice.

    So with that said, we’ve made some changes aimed at bringing the ceiling down while keeping the intention intact. The skill-boosting clauses now only grant a +2 bonus on checks with the skills they boost. However, they gain the following two effects: you can always take 10 on the boosted skills, and when you do decide to roll, you roll 2d20 and take the highest.

    People familiar with D&D 5e’s math might note that this is Advantage, a mechanic whose effective “bonus” ranges from around +1 to +5, depending on what number you’re trying to hit on the die roll. When you’ve got an even chance (need a 10 on the die), the number is highest. When you have a better chance, the effective bonus drops, and likewise, it drops when you have a lower chance. What does this mean? It means that avowed with the skill boosts will be more reliable when they’re about on par with the game’s expected math, particularly at low levels, but will hit diminishing returns as their bonuses climb higher through other investment. At the same time, they won’t surpass any other skillmonkeys a huge amount. It weights their luck, but they now have about the same ceiling as everyone else.

    Aether Channel, SAD, and centralization – Let’s talk about nerfs.

    Aether channel, among avowed mechanics, was hit with the highest-visibility nerf up until the removal of the SAD feats. If you weren’t watching this playtest before said nerf, what it originally did at its second rank was turn your base attack bonus from avowed levels to full BAB. The idea behind this was that it was a cool thing for them, to make them stand alongside the full BAB martials as far as “weapon using” when they’re stabbing people with magic. Aether channel was our hideous blow analogue, intended to enable people to stab people with a weapon at the same time as stabbing with their magic. We missed the mark, and got something that, instead, pushed the avowed ahead as pretty much the best melee damage dealer. Full BAB is way overvalued in this system, but we accidentally undervalued it here—when taken as a whole, alongside the bonus damage, utility of clauses, and pact abilities, the cost was far too little, and the power increase far too great, to keep it.

    It might have been possible to keep the BAB substitution, and lower the damage in another way, but we believe that that would cause more problems than solutions, and that moving forward with with current state of aether channel is a better direction. Overall, what we want from aether channel is a shape that allows an avowed to use a weapon as a vector for their power, much like a magus and their spells. The magic is what we wanted to push as the important thing, rather than the “also as skilled a master warrior in a direct fight” aspect that the old channel gave.

    With that in mind? We understand completely that people liked it, and will be doing something similar to that concept in the future, likely as an archetype that gets full BAB and lowers damage elsewhere, focusing more fully on the STABBING than the magic.

    The SAD changes were done for similar reasons to the skill-boosting clauses’ and aether channel’s nerfs. The avowed was far too efficient, to the point where it was game-warping. It wasn’t because of Altered Life and Unnatural Resilience, two DSP feats we included in our playtest, but because of the general ease with which the avowed could run their offenses off one focused ability score, without any real downsides. A 14 in Constitution is fine; Altered Life wasn’t even really needed to push the avowed to an imbalanced state… And in the end, the decision we arrived at is that we would force a multiple stat dependency, even if it’s not a particularly debilitating one. We’re keeping those feats around for now, to test their balance alongside the Constitution feats.

    Weapon shape users now require their attack stat and Charisma, as well as a tertiary Constitution (which isn’t something they need to focus heavily, if they go for defensive clauses to shore up their weaknesses). We have the scaling penalty to a target’s saves in a round where they succeed against your modulations to help weapon shapes debuff. In contrast, “caster” avowed can still manage to be SAD. They just max Charisma and blast away, and this is intended. They’ve got less burst damage, but do different things. So right now, we’re pretty happy with the way this setup is looking. The Body of the Ancients and Heart of Magic feats are mirrors of Altered Life and Unnatural Resilience, letting you swap Cha to Con for the same feat cost as swapping Con to Cha, effectively, and we’re moving forward with testing those as well.

    (Also, for those who liked the muscle avowed, Embodiment of Aether will likely return in some form, at some point, as an archetype emphasizing your physical form and an alternate method of determining save DCs. I’m not sure when, but we’re planning on doing it.)

    Known Issues, Future Plans – We’re making some avowed-specific items.

    Right now, we’re working on tuning the damage of some shapes, particularly aether barrage, to make them fun and functional. The biggest issue, which has been brought up a bunch of times in testing, is that there isn’t an equivalent of the warlock’s chasuble of fell power or the kineticist’s diadem... Which, if it applied blanketly to all shapes, would cause problems for math in other places. Our solution is going to make a boosting implement item for each shape, likely for Avowed 2, with unique effects that help shore up each shape’s weaknesses, and giving avowed things to spend their hard-earned money on.


    So, now that that’s said, I’ve got a response for MillenniaAntares.

    Quote Originally Posted by MilleniaAntares View Post
    Growth and Miniscule have been updated and I didn't notice until now! These customizations, while appreciated, don't seem to have level limitations on how many times you can take them, which means the companion can get really big/small really quickly. While certainly the most problematic aspects are gone (typically the stat changes), you might not want to allow a huge companion at level 1.

    Additional Legs says the companion that takes it becomes a quadruped... which makes sense if a humanoid takes it. However, the image of an amorphous being with two legs - or a snake being with two legs - being treated as a quadruped is kinda... funny? Weird? Maybe it should specify that if the companion gets four legs it's treated as a quadruped.

    Aether Beast's attack deals aether pulse + strength damage. Is it intended for the damage to not change if Deadly Ability is gotten? Looks good otherwise.

    The Miniscule customization is not on the Reshape Aspiration blacklist. Is this intentional?
    Growth and Minuscule—yes, it's intended that you can have a Huge-sized companion at level 1... Except its ability scores don't change, and it doesn't have reach bigger than a Medium creature. It's a big space-filler, and that's intended, but it's generally not going to be as dangerous as another big monster.

    Aether Beast—yes, it's a light weapon that adds Str to damage, which would be swapped if Deadly Agility is gained (though as always, be wary when mixing 3pps).

    Minuscule—correct, that's intentional.

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Thanks for the update! I'll comb through for typoes and whatnot when it's not past midnight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Growth and Minuscule—yes, it's intended that you can have a Huge-sized companion at level 1... Except its ability scores don't change, and it doesn't have reach bigger than a Medium creature. It's a big space-filler, and that's intended, but it's generally not going to be as dangerous as another big monster.

    Aether Beast—yes, it's a light weapon that adds Str to damage, which would be swapped if Deadly Agility is gained (though as always, be wary when mixing 3pps).
    Gotcha.

    Minuscule—correct, that's intentional.
    Huh. Okay.

    ---

    Edit: Feedback time.

    Aether Cascade feels a bit pointless to take at level 1, since it is functionally the same as Aether Pulse. Perhaps it should be 1 + CL targets instead of just CL targets?

    Aether Retaliation still only says "melee attack", despite you mentioning that you wanted to increase the scope in IRC (if I remember correctly).
    Last edited by MilleniaAntares; 2017-03-11 at 03:00 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    I registered just to say this, let's hope I can phrase it correctly.

    I loved the 3.5 warlock. Not for glaive, or clawlock, but in general, and for it's unique aspect of being a mage with a huge bag of tricks. An all-day caster that could never stand up to a wizard, or sorcerer, but could outlast, and likely out-survive any of them. Properly specced, a warlock could be a tank, a melee fighter, a debuffer, a mini-blaster, an item crafter or combinations thereof. It had unique abilities that made it able to be 'all right' in many roles, and survive nearly any situation with forethought and creativity. It made for a unique gameplay experience that I really enjoyed.

    I like avowed. It seems to scratch most of the itch. My biggest complaint is honestly, the focus you've given it. Not to belittle the pacts, I love some of the flavor options presented, and love guidelines for creating custom ones.

    For the longest time, my only complaint was that the avowed seemed to take the generalist approach of the warlock, and narrow it's potential into one or two builds, depending on the archetype or pact selected. This wasn't terrible, but did harm what I liked about the class.

    I'd love to get some of the broader options back without harming my capabilities (like the tinker archetype being the only realistic way to be a crafter, at serious expense to other abilities.) but unless there's some sort of generalist friendly build, I don't think I'll see it. I was content grumbling about my more focused warlock with greater power.

    The downgrade from D8's to D6's legitimately bothers me. It's taking a warlock that had it's focus forcibly narrowed, and also hampering it's power. While I understand that there's a potential for some builds to potentially abuse damage output like this, I don't think they're still any serious kind of threat by comparison to a properly built damage focused character, unless we're counting combat in many, many rounds.

    I have an opinion, and I'm sure you've heard enough of them. but because I'm entitled trash, I'm going to throw mine out there.

    I feel like some more broadening of abilities would be good, focusing on the generalist/survivalist options of the warlocks of old. I felt like that was the biggest thing avowed missed. Barring that, being more focused than it's inspiration material would be tolerable, but I really feel like doing 1d6 per two levels is really just holding us back, especially in pathfinder. After all, there was a reason that just about everyone who could went hellfire lock back in the day. That being the primary (See: Only) reliable damage method, did not stack up.

    I recognize that there exists certain builds that will pull ahead in damage, absolutely. I think that's the case for nearly any class. But I feel that the direction things have gone, hurts the 'capable in any situation' elements that really drew me into the old warlock, and I hope we can get some of that for the avowed.

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    So I've been doing some thinking on how exactly to make an Excel sheet for DPR calculations, and I'm wondering just exactly which shapes benefit from stuff like Inspire Courage ("+1 to weapon damage rolls")...

    The relevant text is:

    "Aether pulses count as a type of weapon for the purposes of feats such as Weapon Focus, and such feats apply to all the avowed's shapes (including shapes used through weapons, such as aether channel) as well. Likewise, aether pulses are their own weapon group for the purposes of abilities and effects."

    "Weapon Shapes: Aether barrage, aether blade, aether channel, aether rampage, and aether rounds are weapon shapes. A weapon shape's casting time is a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and every weapon shape has a duration of 1 round. During that round, the avowed can use the shape to make weapon attacks as described in the shape's description."

    So the way I understand it, Inspire Courage would apply to barrage, blade, channel, rampage, rounds, and beast, right?

    So cascade, grasp, lance, pulse/blow, and retaliation (attack version) don't benefit?

    Probably worth mentioning is the FAQ on the magic page about rays:

    "Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

    Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)

    For example, a bard’s inspire courage ability says it affects “weapon damage rolls,” which is worded that way so <you> don’t try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they’re from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls."

    ---

    Also, I think it'd be neat for aether cascade to be able to hit swarms despite being single-target (probably by sacrificing the remaining bounces?).

    Aether lance doesn't specify that the +1.5 x str mod portion of its damage comes from being treated as being a two-handed weapon, so is it intended for it to become +1.5 x dex mod with deadly agility?

    Aether beast could probably benefit from having all of its user's feats as well, particularly combat and teamwork feats that aren't already included in its calculations.

    Otyugh pact could have a neat subpact based around (intelligent) insect/serpent beings or something, and swap trash for swarms, and the diseases for poison...

    Edit: Aether Swarm says movement speed is increased to 30 ft at both the second selection and fourth selection.
    Last edited by MilleniaAntares; 2017-03-16 at 02:03 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Hey, all. A fairly small - but significant - update to Avowed 2. We've added two new Self subpacts, the Body and Mind pacts. The new Body pact should fulfill some of the same things you guys liked about the old pre-nerf one while being slightly less overpowered (not so much for those of you that really enjoyed being SAD. Sorry), and the Mind pact is an option for those whose idea of perfection does NOT, in fact, involve punching a dude in the face. We hope you enjoy them, and as always, feedback is greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by Taveena; 2017-03-16 at 06:24 PM.
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    I have a question regarding the elemental subpact in Avowed 2: Is the gaining of an elemental subtype at level 12 intended? Just asking as it was removed from the base pact.
    There is an additonal issue as well: The immediate action summoning of the elemental and the swift action to maintain it, cause it imppossible to maintain it at all.

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracul3S View Post
    I have a question regarding the elemental subpact in Avowed 2: Is the gaining of an elemental subtype at level 12 intended? Just asking as it was removed from the base pact.
    There is an additonal issue as well: The immediate action summoning of the elemental and the swift action to maintain it, cause it imppossible to maintain it at all.
    The Genie pact is losing that subtype in the next update. We'll add wording to clarify that you don't need to spend a swift the round after you summon the elemental with it.
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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    A question on the Tinker-archetype, and Empower Spell-Like ability (and particularly Balefire Infusion):
    Does the Empower-effect only apply to the damage from the Pulse, or also to the damage from the damage from the spell cast via Aether Spark?

    It should really be the latter, otherwise you can get 27D6 fireballs that punch through immunities and resistances at level 9. The archetype is already crazy-good with any sort of Vizier-dip, because you can still get 18D6 fireballs 5+ times per day at 9th level that way, but there's a difference between strong blasting and brokenly devastating blasting.

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    Default Re: [Forrestfire Studios] Playtest: The Avowed, a 3pp warlock with a psychic bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Taveena View Post
    The Genie pact is losing that subtype in the next update. We'll add wording to clarify that you don't need to spend a swift the round after you summon the elemental with it.
    Good to know. Thanks.

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