Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

[Blackhawk748]

Other than being quite expensive to collect, unfun and very time consuming to paint and play, you're also going to get rolled hard by anyone bringing ObSec armour or by a heavy alpha strike army if you don't get first turn.

Also, it'd be about even with the new Heralds Anarchic formation which can generate 82 (+d6) dice, but it's casting on 4's, so yeah, about even, though these guys don't peril on doubles, so throwing 8 dice at a summon is also a decent chance (~85%). This would be harder hit by detatchment restrictions though since you need like 8 or 9 detatchments. It'd be just as expensive, unfun and time consuming though since you basically need 41 heralds (plus summons) instead of however many IG psycher squads (plus summons), though you could cheap out and just use horrors.

Edit: Plus the Daemons will know flickering fire and have the option of rolling on the Tzeentch table for prismatic gaze which is a str D shot so they can deal with superheavies/GMC's at least a little bit, though I suppose you could say the same for the psycher battle company that's summoning horrors, but they've only got ~10 chances to roll for it and don't have it first turn whereas the heralds will have anywhere up to 41 chances to roll for it at 1850, then about the same chances per turn if they summon horrors too. Meh, it's a bit of a wash, but the daemons are more thematic and at least have an invulnerable save and extreme MSU.

I agree here. i mean i think the Psykana Division makes a better Warp Charge battery than horrors, and the great part about that is is that the Primaris Psyker can try to fish for Vortex of Doom, and if you're lucky you can get more than one and start spamming it.

Shadow Field is a 2++, but it disappears the first time you take an unsaved wound. Pair with Farseers with fortune (re-roll your saves) for ultimate trolling.

Oh, that is freakin neat.

[Drasius]

I agree here. i mean i think the Psykana Division makes a better Warp Charge battery than horrors, and the great part about that is is that the Primaris Psyker can try to fish for Vortex of Doom, and if you're lucky you can get more than one and start spamming it.

The Heralds Anarchic isn't horrors, it's Heralds of Tzeentch, specifically, 3-5 of them and each one generates 1 extra warp charge per model from the formation on the field, so you take 3 ML1 horrors for 135 points and they generate 6 WC. It's currently the cheapest WC generator per point than the, now arguably superceeded, Inquisition Henchmen squads at 22.5 point per WC.

Either way, rolling the IG psychers on Sanctic or the Heralds on Tzeentch, you're not rolling summoning and if that's really all you want to do, then it's counter productive, but the Heralds lose less since they have 41 psychers available to make rolls with compared to the [X<41] of the guard, not to mention that if you're only casting ~10 times, then the guard are going to need most of their psycher squads casting while the Heralds are going to have 30 odd units sitting around doing nothing but being batteries and gtg every turn, so they lose a lot less by rolling on Tz 'cause they weren't going to be casting anything anyway.

Really though, summoning is meant to be a supplement to an army, not the only thing it does. I can only imagine the field day a marine army with TFC's would have against this list, especially with some pods to rapid fire some bolters into the squishy T3 armour: doesn't matter models. Personally, I'd probably just take a Household detatchment of ObSec Imperial Knights, go stand on objectives and fire my guns into whatever squad knows Vortex or Molten Beam or whatever else that can realistically hurt me and call it a day, but then not only do I have the models to bring a household at the drop of a hat, I'd also like to put them on the field in a non-tournament game. As always, ask yourself just how fun you think it would be to play against the list you wrote up and how many games you're going to get with it before you purchase the models. If the answer is not a lot to either of those, then you'd better really, really like the models, 'cause looking pretty on the shelf is about all they're going to achieve before long.

[Saambell]

So I'm making plans for a Death Guard Army. My one goal I wanted out of Chaos Marines was to take advantage of the Max 20 Man unit size. Death Guard or World Eaters are my options for that. I'm going Death Guard though. Got two possible lists:

Spoiler: Warband Option

Show

Vectorium:
Warband(core):
Lord: Terminator, FistClawMoN,VotLW, Blight Grenades 152 Points
Sorc: Terminator, ML3, MoN, VotLW, Familiar 165 Points
Chosen: MoN, VotLW, 4x Melta, Rhino 180 Points
Raptors: 10 Man Squad, 2x Melta, MoN, VotLW, Fist 255 Points
Havocs: MoN, VotLW, 4x Autocannons 130 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Swap Boltgun for CCW 345, Claw 145 Points
Spawn(aux):
Spawn: MoN 36 Points
TOTAL: 1973 Points

Would like to maybe drop 10 points to be able to add a second Spawn, or I need to find something to spend 25 points on. Maybe a Sigil on one of my Characters...
OR:

Spoiler: CAD Death Guard

Show

HQ
Lord: Terminator, Fist, Claw, VotLW, MoN 147 Points
Sorc: Terminator, VotLW, MoN, ML3, Familiar 165 Points
Core
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Swap Boltgun for CCW 345 Points
Elite
Chosen: MoN, VotLW, 4x Melta 145 Points
Heavy Support
Havocs: MoN, VotLW, 4x Autocannons 130 Points
TOTAL: 1997 Points

A much slower list, yet more blobs. In both lists, the Lord goes with the melee blob, while the Sorc either joins the same, or sticks with one of the shooting blobs. Not sure yet if to roll all spells on Nurgle or to fish a spell or two on Tele for Invis for a Invisible blob of 20 Marines. As a head's up for my local meta, its mostly a CS/Marine meta with a sprinkle of Tau and Guard really. I don't think its too heavily optimized if Guard and Chaos are main players in it, even before Traitor Legions. Also, I do note I'm Low on Anti Armour... Especially the second list. Might swap the Chosen in it for a unit of 4 spawn, for something fast and able to smack the rear of vehicles. Or maybe actually using the whole "20 man max squad size" is a bad idea.

[LeSwordfish]

Sigils are well worth the points - I would definitely include one on your warlord. (You could also consider a palanquin: an extra wound is lovely.) I think a ten-man squad of raptors won't serve you well, though - you'll probably get more out of two squads of five with meltaguns - fast enough to grab objectives, and some much needed anti-tank firepower. Remember at 2000 points you're going to start seeing things like multiple knights - and you have barely any anti-heavy-tank in either list.

The chosen seem an odd choice in both cases. In the Warband, they're in the only tank in the list, and will eat two thousand points worth of lascannons etc into armour 11 on turn one. In the CAD, they're footslogging with meltaguns and nothing to protect them. I would seriously consider dropping them for combi-melta terminators in both cases. They can deep strike in, have almost as good a chance at splattering a tank as the chosen, and be cheaper and more survivable as they do so.

[JNAProductions]

So what do Necrons do for anti-air?

[hamishspence]

So what do Necrons do for anti-air?

The Pylons and Mini-Pylons from Imperial Armor, possibly? The Gauss weaponry on their fliers might do in a pinch though.

Cheaper and simpler might be just to buy Imperial fortifications with anti-air guns and man them.

[LordDavenport]

@Saambell: For the CAD, have you considered a second detachment of Alpha Legion? You could split off the unit of chosen, and make another one by dropping the Havoks. Then you can take a AL lord with the Mind veil and stick it in your melee foot slogging blob. Then you would have 2 infiltrating Objective secured melta squads, and your melee blob would be moving quite a bit faster.

OHHH... you could make the sorcerer AL, that is it. Then you don't have to roll on Nurgle at all. I mean, he losses FNP which is a thing, but gaining another roll could be better. *shrug*

[lord_khaine]

If you aren't talking about how Eldritch Storm plays into this list, you're not talking about what I'm talking about (or vice versa). Which I think is actually your point.

Yeah.. i though from the start i were making it very clear that my comments were purely aimed at the actual power itself, and that the subject were how its not standing to much out against some of the top psychic powers. I mean, i have certainly heard more complaints about summoning, the S D vortex power, invisibility or that terrain moving thing thats actually banned most places.

Not really, because you don't see foot councils in tournament grade eldar lists, which is what we were talking about. As usual, tone doesn't convey well on the 'net, so I suspect that's also feeding into this. Cheese and I are both from the same country and are generally talking about the same calibre of lists, so we are probably on the same wavelength. You on the other hand appear to have a much more relaxed meta (which isn't a bad thing, it's just different from our which means our perspectives are different). At the end of the day, if you're taking jetseer councils to friendly games, then I would venture that you are a bad person (not just you lord_khaine, anyone).

Clearly it were what you and Cheese were talking about yes. A farseer with a warlock bodyguard has several times been part of the list i brough to our local escalation leagues back when i were more regularly active though. So yes, for me by defauly then a Seer council is footslogging, unless actually specificed that they are riding a bike.

It is why its nicknamed And They Shall Know No Rules. Space Mariness ignore an entire section of the game (morale) and its why i dont recommend them as a starter army (typically i recommend Necrons, easy to paint and easy to run in a casual setting).

Really they are the reason Fear is a trash rule. I mean Necrons sorta ignore it (hello LD 10) but they are just highly resistant, not flat out immune.

Yeah i do also think its an awfully bad idea to hand out outright immunity like that. Clearly its design based on fluff more than anything else. Or designed to feed into the fantasy of the "elite fearless army".

Reread the Dark Eldar Artifacts. They are actually worse then I remember.

Animus Vitae: a one shot only, 8" range, S4 AP 2 shot. If it actually manages to kill someone, you get +1 to your Power from Pain turn. (IE Turn 2 counts as Turn 3). (20 pts to maybe get a useful bonus. If you can get close enough fast enough. If you can actually kill the target. If they don't have any sort of cover or invulnerable. So it sucks).

Archangel of Pain: A one shot only 9" Nova that is ignored by Fearless or ATSKNF. (25 pts to do nothing most of the time)

Armor of Misery: 4+ armor, 6+ Invunerable, Fear, and enemies within 6" take -2 to their LD. (15 pts to really push your wins in CC hard. Shame melee sucks, shame 4+ 6++ sucks, shame fear sucks, and a shame it's useless against Fearless or ATSKNF)

The Dijin Blade: +2 attacks, power weapon. But it causes a wound on a 1, and you are still S 3. (30 pts to suck in melee. Take an Agonizer next time)

The Helm of Spite: Ad Will bubble of 12". Also if the enemy psyker is within the bubble, they Perils on any double. (25 pts, and actually worth it. Pretty mediocre though)

The Parasite's Kiss: A +2 poison pistol. Any unsaved wound heals one wound on the wielder. (5 pts so not completely awful. A blaster is still better.)

See..? now we got someone to be envious about just about everyone elses relics

Now they just need some good formations so other people can be envious of them

Shadow Field is a 2++, but it disappears the first time you take an unsaved wound. Pair with Farseers with fortune (re-roll your saves) for ultimate trolling.

I belive this were the rage right when allies came out first. Or at least a little while after.

[JNAProductions]

How would you change ATSKNF to make it work better but still be fun? Short of outright removing it, obviously.

[DaedalusMkV]

How would you change ATSKNF to make it work better but still be fun? Short of outright removing it, obviously.

Completely delete the current text and turn it into "You may reroll Morale, Pinning and Fear tests. You may choose to reroll a successful test."

Still makes Marines good at Morale, but if you lose combat by 14 you're still going to just run away and being immune to Sweeping Advance has never been good for the game. Also, half the armies in the game having blanket immunity to Fear has been the reason that rule has never been worth actual points, so we needed to do away with that nonsense.

[Forum Explorer]

I think the Warband is better by far.

Also you might want to think about breaking up the blobs into 10 man units. That way you have more board control, can take more special weapons, and are harder to tarpit.

[Drasius]

So I'm making plans for a Death Guard Army. My one goal I wanted out of Chaos Marines was to take advantage of the Max 20 Man unit size. Death Guard or World Eaters are my options for that. I'm going Death Guard though. Got two possible lists:

Spoiler: Warband Option

Show

Vectorium:
Warband(core):
Lord: Terminator, FistClawMoN,VotLW, Blight Grenades 152 Points
Sorc: Terminator, ML3, MoN, VotLW, Familiar 165 Points
Chosen: MoN, VotLW, 4x Melta, Rhino 180 Points
Raptors: 10 Man Squad, 2x Melta, MoN, VotLW, Fist 255 Points
Havocs: MoN, VotLW, 4x Autocannons 130 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Swap Boltgun for CCW 345, Claw 145 Points
Spawn(aux):
Spawn: MoN 36 Points
TOTAL: 1973 Points

Would like to maybe drop 10 points to be able to add a second Spawn, or I need to find something to spend 25 points on. Maybe a Sigil on one of my Characters...
OR:

Spoiler: CAD Death Guard

Show

HQ
Lord: Terminator, Fist, Claw, VotLW, MoN 147 Points
Sorc: Terminator, VotLW, MoN, ML3, Familiar 165 Points
Core
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Swap Boltgun for CCW 345 Points
Elite
Chosen: MoN, VotLW, 4x Melta 145 Points
Heavy Support
Havocs: MoN, VotLW, 4x Autocannons 130 Points
TOTAL: 1997 Points

A much slower list, yet more blobs. In both lists, the Lord goes with the melee blob, while the Sorc either joins the same, or sticks with one of the shooting blobs. Not sure yet if to roll all spells on Nurgle or to fish a spell or two on Tele for Invis for a Invisible blob of 20 Marines. As a head's up for my local meta, its mostly a CS/Marine meta with a sprinkle of Tau and Guard really. I don't think its too heavily optimized if Guard and Chaos are main players in it, even before Traitor Legions. Also, I do note I'm Low on Anti Armour... Especially the second list. Might swap the Chosen in it for a unit of 4 spawn, for something fast and able to smack the rear of vehicles. Or maybe actually using the whole "20 man max squad size" is a bad idea.

Take advantage of a 20 man unit? The only way to take advantage of a 20 man unit is to buff them up, so something like Fabius Bile's enhancements and/or Huron's infiltrate are really the only things other than sorceror buffs that are advantages of a 20 man unit. Technically I guess the 2 specials have 10 extra ablative wounds and you only pay the chap tax once, but there is virtually no benefit at all in taking 1 squad of 20 instead of 2 squads of 10. You were right at the start when you said WE were the other way to do it because getting a free 2d6 move really puts the pressure on but again, there's very little benefit from a 20 man unit instead of 2x10, doubly so now that you're thinking about CC where having 2 power weapons or fists makes all the difference. I'm interested to hear what you think the benefits of the 20 man squad are over 2x10 or even 4x5?

As for the lists, The first list has a temie lord and sorc but no other terminators? Seems more than a bit odd, but if you were just planning on footsloggin them with 20 ablative wounds, well, that unit is going to attract pretty much everything your opponent has. As an aside, there's also virtually no reason to not take a chainfist on a lord, that extra 5 points can make all the difference now that things like knights and character dreadnaughts (and character knights) are things. Throw your squad sarge in front of the challenge and then RIP AND TEAR! with your chainfist. Also makes opening tanks easier and enables multi charges without as much worry. Also also, while sigils are great, it's a lot of wasted points on a terminator character for just +1 invo, but then terminator armour is generally bad, so it doen't come up much. Defiantely not a fan of the single rhino as LeSwordfish already pointed out. It's way too easy as first blood in even smaller games, let alone 2k.

The Raptors, while decent at 10 men, is going to be the only thing moving up quickly outside of a single spawn, so they're going to get focused down hard. Again, Le Swordfish pointed out the same thing, that 2x5 gets you twice as many specials as 1x10, meaning it's more targets and the option to DS them isn't as suicidal as one bigger squad.

As for the second list? Basically the same as the first. I don't know that I'd give up stealth and rr1's on fnp along with ObSec on non-troops choices in exchange for not taking a unit of bikes or raptors. Speaking of bikes, the real question is why your lord and sorc aren't on bikes and running with either a unit of bikes or a unit of spawn (probably bikes because of the warband being mandatory and solo spawn being great aux choices)? T6 bikes with fnp and stealth are pretty damn great and being able to take 3 small units and still take nurgle spawn means you can run a fast, very tough to kill force quite easily.

Don't get me wrong, both lists are quite a lot of durable bodies to chew through, but they're also very slow and unwieldy to manuver around and you're going to be slowed far more by terrain with those big blobs compared to smaller units. If you're playing maelstrom or kill points, yeah, you're going to be fine because the only turns that matter are turns 5 and onwards and even massive blobs of death guard can get across the 24" of no mans land in that time, but you're also going to have to do it under some serious fire. If you face guard a bunch, they're going to thank you for being so light on AV units while them pummel you with battlecannons, basilisks and possibly even some demolishers. If I saw a list like yours and I was running marines, I'd be investing in 3 vindicators ASAP. As for tau, well, they're not going to care much since they've got lots of answers already. IA 'tides, ionheads, massed FW's, pirahna firestream seeker spam, anchored stormsurge pulse driver/s and sufficient markerlights will be more than enough to ruin your day.

So what do Necrons do for anti-air?

Either not care because they're necrons and don't die or they shoot str7 twin linked tesla at it from night scythes of their own. Or yeah, as hamishspence pointed out, if FW is allowed, Pylons. Alternately, if you're playing with mysterious objectives, find a skyfire nexus and just point your basic gauss weapons skyward and let volume of fire do the talking. I'd probably go with ignoring them though unless you were already building towards a night scythe or two so you could have some mobility for late game objective grabbing outside of tomb blades/wraiths.

[Blackhawk748]

The Heralds Anarchic isn't horrors, it's Heralds of Tzeentch, specifically, 3-5 of them and each one generates 1 extra warp charge per model from the formation on the field, so you take 3 ML1 horrors for 135 points and they generate 6 WC. It's currently the cheapest WC generator per point than the, now arguably superceeded, Inquisition Henchmen squads at 22.5 point per WC.

I knew that, i was talking in more general terms for Warp Batteries for your Heralds Anarchic, though i guess they need one a lot less than other Psykers.

[Blackhawk748]

How would you change ATSKNF to make it work better but still be fun? Short of outright removing it, obviously.

What Daedalus said:

Completely delete the current text and turn it into "You may reroll Morale, Pinning and Fear tests. You may choose to reroll a successful test."

Still makes Marines good at Morale, but if you lose combat by 14 you're still going to just run away and being immune to Sweeping Advance has never been good for the game. Also, half the armies in the game having blanket immunity to Fear has been the reason that rule has never been worth actual points, so we needed to do away with that nonsense.

Outside of Marines whose actually flat out immune? Nids are (cuz synapse), Guard and Sisters are with Priests (but you can snipe the Priest out and it works), Orks can be with Ghazzy, but outside of that MFD (which i am not alone in hating) its only for one turn. Are GSC, i wanna say they sorta are.

So ya, if we can fix ATSKNF, Fear suddenly becomes decent, because you can take away everybody elses immunity by killing characters.

I also agree with the immunity to Sweeping Advances, everyone else has to deal with, so suck it up Marines.

Edit: Whoops, double posted. Let this be a lesson, never walk away and do something else while in the middle of posting.

[JNAProductions]

Speaking of Sweeping Advances, would it be better if, instead of wiping out a unit completely, they did a number of unavoidable wounds equal to the difference in your Initiative roll-off?

[Blackhawk748]

Speaking of Sweeping Advances, would it be better if, instead of wiping out a unit completely, they did a number of unavoidable wounds equal to the difference in your Initiative roll-off?

It would certainly stop the "5 Marines who got lucky kill 20 Orks who got unlucky" crap. And yes, this has happened to me and i thought it was dumb.

[JNAProductions]

It would certainly stop the "5 Marines who got lucky kill 20 Orks who got unlucky" crap. And yes, this has happened to me and i thought it was dumb.

Or a 50 man blob of Guardsmen being wiped out by one lucky Marine.

So positive change, overall?

[LeSwordfish]

Personally I suspect that even without ATSKNF, marines would fall into the meta that just about every other army is in: anything worth killing/defuffing is Fearless. That, for me, is every bit as significant as a bunch of armies wholescale ignoring it: I don't really care about applying Fear to, say, Devastator squads, since just about anything Fear-causing should beat them anyway.

Fear would actually be fairly rubbish even if everybody was vulnerable to it: in the very best case you go from 3+ to 5+ to be hit and vice versa. I would really rather see Fear be more effective on those things it does hurt: perhaps a unit that fails a Fear test, immediately falls back as if it failed a morale check. The unit that causes fear can't sweeping advance, but they can opt to automatically follow the fleeing unit and remain in combat with them.

Lord Of The Rings used to have a similar Terror rule: if you want to charge a unit that causes Terror, pass a leadership Courage test: fail, and you can't. However, there was no effect from being charged by a terrifying unit. In War Of The Ring, whenever you enter combat with a Terrifying unit (charging or charged) make a test: fail, and your Fight value is reduced, thus significantly increasing the number of attacks your opponent may make against you. Perhaps something similar could work for 40k: fail a Fear test, and your opponent doubles their Attacks characteristic, or perhaps you may only make one attack per model.

[JNAProductions]

Personally I suspect that even without ATSKNF, marines would fall into the meta that just about every other army is in: anything worth killing/defuffing is Fearless. That, for me, is every bit as significant as a bunch of armies wholescale ignoring it: I don't really care about applying Fear to, say, Devastator squads, since just about anything Fear-causing should beat them anyway.

Fear would actually be fairly rubbish even if everybody was vulnerable to it: in the very best case you go from 3+ to 5+ to be hit and vice versa. I would really rather see Fear be more effective on those things it does hurt: perhaps a unit that fails a Fear test, immediately falls back as if it failed a morale check. The unit that causes fear can't sweeping advance, but they can opt to automatically follow the fleeing unit and remain in combat with them.

Lord Of The Rings used to have a similar Terror rule: if you want to charge a unit that causes Terror, pass a leadership Courage test: fail, and you can't. However, there was no effect from being charged by a terrifying unit. In War Of The Ring, whenever you enter combat with a Terrifying unit (charging or charged) make a test: fail, and your Fight value is reduced, thus significantly increasing the number of attacks your opponent may make against you. Perhaps something similar could work for 40k: fail a Fear test, and your opponent doubles their Attacks characteristic, or perhaps you may only make one attack per model.

That Devastator squad you just talked bout? Only has 1 attack base. Not saying it's a bad idea-just saying it needs work.

[Forum Explorer]

Personally I suspect that even without ATSKNF, marines would fall into the meta that just about every other army is in: anything worth killing/defuffing is Fearless. That, for me, is every bit as significant as a bunch of armies wholescale ignoring it: I don't really care about applying Fear to, say, Devastator squads, since just about anything Fear-causing should beat them anyway.

Fear would actually be fairly rubbish even if everybody was vulnerable to it: in the very best case you go from 3+ to 5+ to be hit and vice versa. I would really rather see Fear be more effective on those things it does hurt: perhaps a unit that fails a Fear test, immediately falls back as if it failed a morale check. The unit that causes fear can't sweeping advance, but they can opt to automatically follow the fleeing unit and remain in combat with them.

Lord Of The Rings used to have a similar Terror rule: if you want to charge a unit that causes Terror, pass a leadership Courage test: fail, and you can't. However, there was no effect from being charged by a terrifying unit. In War Of The Ring, whenever you enter combat with a Terrifying unit (charging or charged) make a test: fail, and your Fight value is reduced, thus significantly increasing the number of attacks your opponent may make against you. Perhaps something similar could work for 40k: fail a Fear test, and your opponent doubles their Attacks characteristic, or perhaps you may only make one attack per model.

I kinda think they should just get rid of Fear altogether. It's a clunky rule at the best of times with far too many ways to ignore it or protect against it.

[JNAProductions]

I kinda think they should just get rid of Fear altogether. It's a clunky rule at the best of times with far too many ways to ignore it or protect against it.

I'd like to see Fear re-worked to do something useful. As it is, it's not terribly useful, but it's a fluffy rule for some things, so should have an impact.

[LeSwordfish]

That Devastator squad you just talked bout? Only has 1 attack base. Not saying it's a bad idea-just saying it needs work.

I figure someone walloping a guy with the blunt end of a multi-melta should be about as effective as a Howling Banshee having a breakdown. This interpretation would make it dramatically more effective against better melee units anyway, which is kind of how it works anyway, both currently and in War Of The Rings. It also prevents bonus attacks like charging and double weapons.

[JNAProductions]

I figure someone walloping a guy with the blunt end of a multi-melta should be about as effective as a Howling Banshee having a breakdown. This interpretation would make it dramatically more effective against better melee units anyway, which is kind of how it works anyway, both currently and in War Of The Rings. It also prevents bonus attacks like charging and double weapons.

Ah, okay. That's actually pretty good, then!

Perhaps, if you only have 1 attack, then you cannot attack at all? And if you have more than 1 (whether from charging, two weapons, or high base attacks) you are reduced to 1? Because a Devastator having a breakdown should be worse than a Howling Banshee breaking down.

[Forum Explorer]

I'd like to see Fear re-worked to do something useful. As it is, it's not terribly useful, but it's a fluffy rule for some things, so should have an impact.

Is it though? I mean so many armies should basically be immune to fear. Dark Eldar , CSM, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, and yes, Space Marines.

[Renegade Paladin]

So I'm making plans for a Death Guard Army. My one goal I wanted out of Chaos Marines was to take advantage of the Max 20 Man unit size. Death Guard or World Eaters are my options for that. I'm going Death Guard though. Got two possible lists:

Spoiler: Warband Option

Show

Vectorium:
Warband(core):
Lord: Terminator, FistClawMoN,VotLW, Blight Grenades 152 Points
Sorc: Terminator, ML3, MoN, VotLW, Familiar 165 Points
Chosen: MoN, VotLW, 4x Melta, Rhino 180 Points
Raptors: 10 Man Squad, 2x Melta, MoN, VotLW, Fist 255 Points
Havocs: MoN, VotLW, 4x Autocannons 130 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Swap Boltgun for CCW 345, Claw 145 Points
Spawn(aux):
Spawn: MoN 36 Points
TOTAL: 1973 Points

Would like to maybe drop 10 points to be able to add a second Spawn, or I need to find something to spend 25 points on. Maybe a Sigil on one of my Characters...
OR:

Spoiler: CAD Death Guard

Show

HQ
Lord: Terminator, Fist, Claw, VotLW, MoN 147 Points
Sorc: Terminator, VotLW, MoN, ML3, Familiar 165 Points
Core
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Autocannon, Plasma 355 Points
CSM: MoN, VotLW, 20 Man Squad, Swap Boltgun for CCW 345 Points
Elite
Chosen: MoN, VotLW, 4x Melta 145 Points
Heavy Support
Havocs: MoN, VotLW, 4x Autocannons 130 Points
TOTAL: 1997 Points

A much slower list, yet more blobs. In both lists, the Lord goes with the melee blob, while the Sorc either joins the same, or sticks with one of the shooting blobs. Not sure yet if to roll all spells on Nurgle or to fish a spell or two on Tele for Invis for a Invisible blob of 20 Marines. As a head's up for my local meta, its mostly a CS/Marine meta with a sprinkle of Tau and Guard really. I don't think its too heavily optimized if Guard and Chaos are main players in it, even before Traitor Legions. Also, I do note I'm Low on Anti Armour... Especially the second list. Might swap the Chosen in it for a unit of 4 spawn, for something fast and able to smack the rear of vehicles. Or maybe actually using the whole "20 man max squad size" is a bad idea.

My bog-standard Russ squadrons would have a field day with that. A bunch of 3+ armor that only has one unit that can hurt AV14 and has to footslog across the table to do anything? Sign me up! (And make no mistake, even in the first list they'd be footslogging; that lone Rhino would be the first thing to go.)

[Requizen]

So what do Necrons do for anti-air?

Ignore it with durability or take Scythes. Unless you play with Death from the Skies, in which case you lose Skyfire. FW Pylons are not good for AA. You can Ally in if you want, I guess.

[peacenlove]

Ignore it with durability or take Scythes. Unless you play with Death from the Skies, in which case you lose Skyfire. FW Pylons are not good for AA. You can Ally in if you want, I guess.

Nightbringer's gaze of death also deals nicely with FMC.

[LordDavenport]

Ignore it with durability or take Scythes. Unless you play with Death from the Skies, in which case you lose Skyfire. FW Pylons are not good for AA. You can Ally in if you want, I guess.

So tau? Unless I am missing something, CSM only offer missile launchers with AA missiles(Hilariously expensive), or Auto cannon Drakes(Also expensive). Tau do have some of the best AA options in the game, even if you are avoiding the cheese of riptide wings.

Speaking of, what is the best way to ally in tau AA?

[Cheesegear]

Speaking of, what is the best way to ally in tau AA?

Tau, Riptide Wing
Riptide; Ion Accelerator, Velocity Tracker - 205 Points
Riptide; Ion Accelerator, Velocity Tracker - 205 Points
Riptide; Early Warning Override, Velocity Tracker - 205 Points

[Tome]

If you want something a little less cheesy, a Firebase Support Cadre (1 Riptide, 2+ Broadsides, 500+ points) or Ranged Support Cadre (3 Pathfinder units, 3+ Broadsides, 400+ points) are also viable options if kitted appropriately.

A Skysweep Missile Defence formation (1 Devilfish, 3 Skyrays, 450-500 points) may also work out okay if you want minimum cheese but maximum anti-air.