Iterative attack spells + Sneak attack

[Yogibear41]

I know if you cast something like Scorching ray that gives you several rays/attacks as one standard action you can only apply sneak attack to the first ray, but if you cast something like Darkfire which you can make iterative attacks with based on your bab can you then apply sneak attack to each attack iterative, or are you still limited to just the first attack?

[Venger]

rules compendium actually has no authority to change rules, only to compile and organize them, so the volley rule isn't real. you apply it to every attack in a volley.

in any instance, even if your gm uses that houserule, you will get sneak attack with iteratives if you still fulfill the conditions for sneak attack on the subsequent ones, so if you were flanking, you'd get it, but if you decloaked from invisibility after the first attack, you wouldn't.

[ExLibrisMortis]

And don't forget that the Rules Compendium rule still allows SA with scorching ray if you spontaneously metamagic it, using a full-round action to cast. And the Double Hit feat only allows you to SA once (it's multiple attacks, and it's not a full-round action). It's wonky like that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Rules Compendium p136 says you can apply sneak attack on each attack if it takes a full-round action to use the multiple-attack spell. If it's only a standard action to use a spell to make multiple attacks, unless specifically stated otherwise in a given spell's description, you only add precision damage on the first attack.

So a Sorcerer using Scorching Ray with any metamagic feat as a full-round action can add sneak attack on every shot.

If you cast a touch spell that makes multiple touches the free attack when you cast it adds precision damage (one attack that round), then a full attack with it on the following round adds precision damage on each hit.

[Darrin]

If you're not a spontaneous caster, you can take Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) to cast any spell you know as a full-round action out of one of your "reserved slots". It's at -2 CL, but it's not like getting CL increases is all that difficult.

...and now that I'm thinking about it, that's kinda a big loophole for any spell with a casting time greater than a full-round action.

[Troacctid]

rules compendium actually has no authority to change rules, only to compile and organize them, so the volley rule isn't real. you apply it to every attack in a volley.

in any instance, even if your gm uses that houserule, you will get sneak attack with iteratives if you still fulfill the conditions for sneak attack on the subsequent ones, so if you were flanking, you'd get it, but if you decloaked from invisibility after the first attack, you wouldn't.

And don't forget that the Rules Compendium rule still allows SA with scorching ray if you spontaneously metamagic it, using a full-round action to cast. And the Double Hit feat only allows you to SA once (it's multiple attacks, and it's not a full-round action). It's wonky like that.

The Rules Compendium p136 says you can apply sneak attack on each attack if it takes a full-round action to use the multiple-attack spell. If it's only a standard action to use a spell to make multiple attacks, unless specifically stated otherwise in a given spell's description, you only add precision damage on the first attack.

So a Sorcerer using Scorching Ray with any metamagic feat as a full-round action can add sneak attack on every shot.

If you cast a touch spell that makes multiple touches the free attack when you cast it adds precision damage (one attack that round), then a full attack with it on the following round adds precision damage on each hit.

If you're not a spontaneous caster, you can take Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) to cast any spell you know as a full-round action out of one of your "reserved slots". It's at -2 CL, but it's not like getting CL increases is all that difficult.

...and now that I'm thinking about it, that's kinda a big loophole for any spell with a casting time greater than a full-round action.

I don't know how so many people remember the volley attack rule from Rules Compendium while apparently remaining unaware of the much more relevant weaponlike spell rules from Complete Arcane (also reprinted in RC).

Casting time is irrelevant, as is whether Rules Compendium is used in your game. If you're making multiple attacks with a single spell, you only get sneak attack on the first attack with it each round, period.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't know how so many people remember the volley attack rule from Rules Compendium while apparently remaining unaware of the much more relevant weaponlike spell rules from Complete Arcane (also reprinted in RC).


Casting time is irrelevant, as is whether Rules Compendium is used in your game. If you're making multiple attacks with a single spell, you only get sneak attack on the first attack with it each round, period.

Huh, good point. That breaks some nice Unseen Seer builds.

[Crake]

If you're not a spontaneous caster, you can take Spell Mastery + Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) to cast any spell you know as a full-round action out of one of your "reserved slots". It's at -2 CL, but it's not like getting CL increases is all that difficult.

...and now that I'm thinking about it, that's kinda a big loophole for any spell with a casting time greater than a full-round action.

I've seen that trick touted quite a bit on the forums, it seems to be quite well known, though personally I house rule it to be that it increases the casting time by one step for spells shorter than a standard action, and by 1 round for casting times longer than a standard action.

[rrwoods]

I don't know how so many people remember the volley attack rule from Rules Compendium while apparently remaining unaware of the much more relevant weaponlike spell rules from Complete Arcane (also reprinted in RC).


Casting time is irrelevant, as is whether Rules Compendium is used in your game. If you're making multiple attacks with a single spell, you only get sneak attack on the first attack with it each round, period.

... Man, it didn't occur to me until now how horribly worded that rule is. "A bonus on damage (including sneak attack)" ... but ... sneak attack isn't a bonus!

[Darrin]

I don't know how so many people remember the volley attack rule from Rules Compendium while apparently remaining unaware of the much more relevant weaponlike spell rules from Complete Arcane (also reprinted in RC).

RC added some additional language, such as: "Any weaponlike spell that can be used with precision damage, such as sneak attack, follows the normal rules for precision damage with a few alterations." (emphasis added)

The "normal rules" for Precision Damage can be found on page 42, which includes this text:

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group."

So... there's an argument that the weaponlike spell rules are only referring to standard-action spells. For more detailed rules on Precision Damage, the RC text refers you to page 42. There may be a "specific trumps general" issue there where you could say the casting time *does* matter, as far as the RC is concerned. But it's a somewhat convoluted argument.

It's actually easier to just house-rule this with something more intuitive and easy to explain to casual players: "Each separate attack roll gets precision damage. If you make only a single attack roll, then you only get precision damage once."

... Man, it didn't occur to me until now how horribly worded that rule is. "A bonus on damage (including sneak attack)" ... but ... sneak attack isn't a bonus!

Actually, it's explicitly called out as "bonus damage" in the PHB (p. 114):

"Exception: Bonus damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

The designers can sometimes be sloppy when they use the word "bonus", but what they mean here is "bonus damage DICE". A static modifier, such as your Strength "bonus", enhancement bonus, etc., that you apply to your weapon damage *does* get multiplied.

It's easier to remember as "bonus DICE don't get multiplied, everything else (almost) that's a bonus is treated as a modifier."

[Ruethgar]

Hmm, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike and are punching to deliver your touch spells the bonus damage could be considered to be applied to the unarmed strikes, not the spell, and thus work around the Weaponlike Spell limitation.

[DrMotives]

Hmm, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike and are punching to deliver your touch spells the bonus damage could be considered to be applied to the unarmed strikes, not the spell, and thus work around the Weaponlike Spell limitation.

That really illustrates how silly it is to limit sneak attacks when every attack still requires a separate attack roll. I mean, sure the sneak damage would be physical instead of whatever damage type the spell deals, but that's still bizarre.

[Fouredged Sword]

Sneak attack can only trigger once on any combination of attacks made as a standard action, move actions, or lesser actions, and once per attack roll for full round actions.

Not hard.

[Troacctid]

RC added some additional language, such as: "Any weaponlike spell that can be used with precision damage, such as sneak attack, follows the normal rules for precision damage with a few alterations." (emphasis added)

The "normal rules" for Precision Damage can be found on page 42, which includes this text:

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group."

So... there's an argument that the weaponlike spell rules are only referring to standard-action spells. For more detailed rules on Precision Damage, the RC text refers you to page 42. There may be a "specific trumps general" issue there where you could say the casting time *does* matter, as far as the RC is concerned. But it's a somewhat convoluted argument.

And then it repeats the same rule from CAr. Why would they be mutually exclusive? There's no textual evidence for that. Both restrictions apply. Pretty clear-cut IMO.