The Stick's worst blunder: vote now!

[candybarsuvius]

While the Order of the Stick are talented (mostly), dedicated (mostly), brave (except when not), and well-intentioned (except when not), they are also almost laughably bad planners. Roy drives the bus but often finds that there are five other steering wheels, all being manipulated at the same time. This, of course, is a rich source of humor for the strip, and it's an ongoing trope that the Stick fights its battles suboptimally and plans to meet its objectives, uh, creatively. That's why we love 'em.

So I was trying to figure out--what's the Stick's worst blunder so far, strategy-wise? (There are lots of botched battles, but that's not what I'm talking about here, though the bandit battle in the forest definitely comes to mind as a winner.) My personal pick is the whole mess that led up to the Godsmoot, though what I want to hear are your picks for SSSS (Seminal Stick Strategy Screw-up).

[Freed]

As a whole? Being jerks to and not believing Belkar.
Roy: Girard's gate goes BOOM!
Haley: Not much that I can remember.
Elan: Too much that I can remember.
Roy again: Remember that falling of a dragon thing? STUPID!
Belkar: Killing the oracle
V: Deal with the devil.

[NerdyKris]

I think their worst blunder is objectively when they failed to destroy Xykon's phylactery, which would have possibly prevented the entire plotline from ever occurring, as Redcloak spends another 30 years trying to find a sorcerer to complete the ritual with.

[Porthos]

I think their worst blunder is objectively when they failed to destroy Xykon's phylactery, which would have possibly prevented the entire plotline from ever occurring, as Redcloak spends another 30 years trying to find a sorcerer to complete the ritual with.

Hard to call something a blunder if one doesn't know one is supposed to do it.

(Might count as Eugene's blunder for not telling Roy, however)

[NerdyKris]

Well, I suppose it depends on the definition of blunder being used, but you really can't beat setting in motion the entire conflict of the story when it comes to mistakes, even unintentional ones.

[hagnat]

• accepting a Vampire as a team member
• belkar killing the oracle
• roy refusing to listen to the oracle's advice
• V trying to solo defeat Xykon
• antagonizing Miko
• Haley believing she could trust Old Blind Pete when her father told no to trust anyone in that city

[M Placeholder]

V committing genocide, which would probably go under deal with the devil.

I would also put a dishonorable mention to keeping Belkar around, instead of having him either jailed or straight up killed. Not only is he a sociopath who is devoted to senseless violence, his appalling build and wisdom of a lemming make him a burden to the rest of the order and he has made no attempt to improve his atrocious build (unlike Elan, who took a prestige class and learned healing magic to help the team).

[candybarsuvius]

V committing genocide, which would probably go under deal with the devil.

I would also put a dishonorable mention to keeping Belkar around, instead of having him either jailed or straight up killed. Not only is he a sociopath who is devoted to senseless violence, his appalling build and wisdom of a lemming make him a burden to the rest of the order and he has made no attempt to improve his atrocious build (unlike Elan, who took a prestige class and learned healing magic to help the team).

I suppose it would only be a blunder if they had a decent replacement available. Though it would be nice if they had an actual ranger, Belkar has proved useful in many battles. He's sort of like a surly, ill-tempered guard dog. You don't like him, but you know that he WILL bite any intruders (or the Jehovah's Witness, or the UPS guy).

Roy has consistently viewed him as a semi-guided missile that can be aimed at the team's enemies. I also think that only sort of caring whether he dies or not makes him that much more of a useful weapon for the team: "Go kill those seventeen red dragons, Belkar!" "Hell yeah!"

Besides, he's pretty snarky, which fits well with the rest of the team (even Durkon succumbs to the urge on occasion).

[candybarsuvius]

Well, I suppose it depends on the definition of blunder being used, but you really can't beat setting in motion the entire conflict of the story when it comes to mistakes, even unintentional ones.

How so? Xykon's plot and the subversion of the Godsmoot are two things they are trying to stop (though they unwittingly abetted the latter), and would have happened regardless of their efforts.

The entire conflict of the story in its original form was cast aside by Roy when he told his father that he wasn't interested in fulfilling his father's oath any longer and was going to stop Xykon not because of that, but because he was a danger to the world.

[Ruck]

It's not the "worst," per se, but the one that annoys me the most is "every time someone tries to tell Roy something, and he decides he knows better / knows what they're going to say, and talks over them instead of listens to them." Probably the Deva trying to warn him about Vaarsuvius is the most blatant: This isn't Belkar; this is someone you have every reason in the world to listen to.

[littlebum2002]

V committing genocide, which would probably go under deal with the devil.

Yeah, I really can't see how "blowing up a gate" or "not destroying Xykon" or, on that track, pretty much "anything that isn't genocide" could ever live up to "actual genocide" when you're talking about bad things someone who committed genocide has done.

[Snails]

I would argue for Eugene not informing his son about the phylactery, earlier.

IMO, Eugene held back information for no other reason than to indulge in a petty act of contempt for his own son.

[NerdyKris]

Redcloak would have been unable to threaten any other gates without Xykon. Not destroying Xykon resulted in the entire conflict being possible. And on top of that, had Elan never blown up the gate, the godsmoot would have gone the same way it always went.

Edit- godsmoot would have, not would never have.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah, I really can't see how "blowing up a gate" or "not destroying Xykon" or, on that track, pretty much "anything that isn't genocide" could ever live up to "actual genocide" when you're talking about bad things someone who committed genocide has done.

Because we're not talking about "bad things," we're talking about "blunders," that is, stupid, careless mistakes. And the genocide was completely intentional. The only blunder about it was all the unintended targets.

[littlebum2002]

Because we're not talking about "bad things," we're talking about "blunders," that is, stupid, careless mistakes. And the genocide was completely intentional. The only blunder about it was all the unintended targets.

Fair enough.

Still, unless one of their blunders ends up ending the world (a realistic possibility at this point), the genocide would probably still remain their biggest one, considering how many unintentional targets there were.

[candybarsuvius]

Fair enough.

Still, unless one of their blunders ends up ending the world (a realistic possibility at this point), the genocide would probably still remain their biggest one, considering how many unintentional targets there were.

I can't agree, because only V had anything to do with it. It wasn't a collective decision. I was referring more to "their" blunders, as in, the Stick's major strategic errors. V's error was more moral/tactical (the latter, because V didn't realize how to properly channel the spliced souls' spells). It was also a tactical error in that it removed much of the protection of whatsisname's gate, but V couldn't have foreseen that.

Now, if there had been a spell that killed all telemarketers, we'd have something there...(NO! I do NOT want to buy a subscription to Naked Kayaking Monthly!!!)

[candybarsuvius]

Redcloak would have been unable to threaten any other gates without Xykon. Not destroying Xykon resulted in the entire conflict being possible. And on top of that, had Elan never blown up the gate, the godsmoot would have gone the same way it always went.

Edit- godsmoot would have, not would never have.

"Not destroying Xykon" means that a) it was possible at that point for them to destroy Xykon and b) they should have known that Xykon wasn't actually destroyed when Roy dismantled him and threw him into the Gate/rift.

I also doubt that Redcloak would have been more than slowed down had Xykon been destroyed. He'd just find some other insane megalomaniac wizard-type, undead or not, to enlist. They're not that rare. In the city near where I live, any bar on Saturday night will have two or three of them (some of them undead, some not).

[Ruck]

I also doubt that Redcloak would have been more than slowed down had Xykon been destroyed. He'd just find some other insane megalomaniac wizard-type, undead or not, to enlist. They're not that rare. In the city near where I live, any bar on Saturday night will have two or three of them (some of them undead, some not).

All evidence in OOTS-world suggests otherwise-- or at least, that the supply of wizards of sufficient level and possessed of the appropriate moral leanings for Redcloak's plan is very short.

[Keltest]

All evidence in OOTS-world suggests otherwise-- or at least, that the supply of wizards of sufficient level and possessed of the appropriate moral leanings for Redcloak's plan is very short.

Don't forget the malleability. Redcloak pretty much needs to go with a sorcerer (or, I guess, a bard?) because a wizard is going to be horrifically intelligent and difficult to manipulate. Xykon, who's intelligence has not been shown as exceptional even if he isn't stupid either, is already hard to pull one over on.

[Freed]

Don't forget the malleability. Redcloak pretty much needs to go with a sorcerer (or, I guess, a bard?) because a wizard is going to be horrifically intelligent and difficult to manipulate. Xykon, who's intelligence has not been shown as exceptional even if he isn't stupid either, is already hard to pull one over on.

Not true, Tsuk couldn't figure it out without MITD's help.

[Kantaki]

Not true, Tsuk couldn't figure it out without MITD's help.

Wasn't Tsuki’s problem that she didn't realise she only had part of the ritual at first?
Once she considered the GBiS’s comment she worked out what it really does pretty fast.
And I'm not sure Tsukiko was that intelligent by wizard standards. Certainly more qualified for the class than Elan or Belkar, but that applies to almost everything.

[PH7]

I'd say Roy made the biggest blunder when he phrased his second question to the oracle. Soon's gate should never have been lost.

[dps]

I'd say Roy made the biggest blunder when he phrased his second question to the oracle. Soon's gate should never have been lost.

I'm not sure what they could have done differently to defend Azure City even if they had realized it was Team Evil's next target. Might have given the Azurites time to call in more defenders, but that might just have increased the casualty list.

I'd say that their biggest blunder was teaming up with the Linear Guild to start with, though that was mostly on Roy--Haley did try to warn him (but she didn't really have a convincing argument).

[Jasdoif]

I'm not sure what they could have done differently to defend Azure City even if they had realized it was Team Evil's next target.

Not arriving in the throne room having a conversation with Shojo to send Miko off the deep end, would have left Shojo and Miko in position to assist in the city's defense. The extent to which this would have mattered is debatable, but Shojo had a lot more experience dealing with Azure City's nobles and allies then Hinjo did, and slashing the life out of anything that opposes her nation/lord/worldview is Miko's specialty.

Spoiler: War and XPs commentary

Show

Shojo is specifically called out as knowing how to deploy Azure City's defenses, and that if he was around the Order of the Stick would be treated like a band of mercenaries working for him, instead of making their own decisions on what to do.

[Peelee]

Not arriving in the throne room having a conversation with Shojo to send Miko off the deep end, would have left Shojo and Miko in position to assist in the city's defense. The extent to which this would have mattered is debatable, but Shojo had a lot more experience dealing with Azure City's nobles and allies then Hinjo did, and slashing the life out of anything that opposes her nation/lord/worldview is Miko's specialty.

Spoiler: War and XPs commentary

Show

Shojo is specifically called out as knowing how to deploy Azure City's defenses, and that if he was around the Order of the Stick would be treated like a band of mercenaries working for him, instead of making their own decisions on what to do.

The city-widevbattle likely would have gone somewhat differently, but the Throne Room battle would almost certainly have gone differently. An extra Miko in the ghost army would have helped fell Xykon even sooner.

[georgie_leech]

The city-widevbattle likely would have gone somewhat differently, but the Throne Room battle would almost certainly have gone differently. An extra Miko in the ghost army would have helped fell Xykon even sooner.

Plus, you know, not interrupting a certain ghost general at the worst possible moment.

[Kish]

Redcloak wouldn't need to manipulate a wizard if the wizard in question was a hobgoblin from Gobbotopia. He's come a long way since the best goblinoid wizard he knew yelled PORK. One can speculate that the answer to Haley's question here is "a goblinoid spellcaster,", but it's not more than speculation either side someone comes down on; there are verifiably a number of wizards in Gobbotopia and there's no reason for goblins to be particularly bad at wizardry.

[137beth]

Wasn't Tsuki’s problem that she didn't realise she only had part of the ritual at first?
Once she considered the GBiS’s comment she worked out what it really does pretty fast.
And I'm not sure Tsukiko was that intelligent by wizard standards. Certainly more qualified for the class than Elan or Belkar, but that applies to almost everything.

Tsukiko didn't actually figure out what the ritual did. She just deduced that it did something other than what Redcloak had told Xykon. She didn't know what it did until Redcloak told her.

[Keltest]

Redcloak wouldn't need to manipulate a wizard if the wizard in question was a hobgoblin from Gobbotopia. He's come a long way since the best goblinoid wizard he knew yelled PORK. One can speculate that the answer to Haley's question here is "a goblinoid spellcaster,", but it's not more than speculation either side someone comes down on; there are verifiably a number of wizards in Gobbotopia and there's no reason for goblins to be particularly bad at wizardry.

I suspect that you are overestimating the attachment to any specific nation or race such a powerful magic user would have, but as we cannot prove it would occur either way, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[Jasdoif]

I suspect that you are overestimating the attachment to any specific nation or race such a powerful magic user would have, but as we cannot prove it would occur either way, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Consider that Redcloak, foremost agent of the Dark One, is widely held responsible for turning the tables on the Azurites. That under his guidance the hobgoblins went from being pinned in the mountains where they'd been the past thirty years, to conquering the capital city of those who'd been pinning them there. And held on to it for a year.

That's the legacy Gobbotopia was founded on: The Dark One sent a single goblin, which was enough to turn the long-oppressed hobgoblins into conquerors.


I suspect you'd have an extremely difficult time finding a powerful magic user willing to refuse the Dark One (or his visionary Redcloak), who's still in Gobbotopia after all this time.