The Stick's worst blunder: vote now!

[Peelee]

What makes you think the trial was non-legal and non-binding? Just because it was done by the Sapphire Guard instead of Azure City? What makes you think the Sapphire Guard (which feels entitled to execute people after a trial) wouldn't be able to impose any penalties whatsoever on its commander-in-chief? And what makes you think that Hinjo has such a poor grasp of Azurite law that he would repeatedly comment on Shojo being put on trial (talking to Shojo, to Miko and with Belkar when trying to resurrect Shojo) if that was not a distinct possibility and he believed it'd be a farce?

They feel entitled to secretly execute people after a secret trial under their own authority. Roy questioned the jurisdiction claims, and was told that the Sapphire Guard, not Azure City, claims jurisdiction. Public trial on the authority of Azure City may not go so well.

Also, is it your position that when any politician reasonably versed in law stats talking about a trial, that a trial is then an inevitable outcome? I'm not saying Hinjo had a poor grasp on the laws, I'm saying that I think he's wrong. There's a very large difference between the two.

[Jay R]

Roy has not yet learned to stop asking questions to which he will regret learning the answers.

[Snails]

Sure, but the testimony is not "we witnessed Shojo rigging the trial" but "while walking towards a room several panels away, we may have vaguely overheard Shojo saying something to that foreigner that sounded bad. But it may have been sarcasm, us paladins are notoriously bad at detecing that. Not sure. Can you arrest him now?"

That seems like extreme cherry-picking of the full data.

Would Shojo claim that both Miko and Hinjo are outright lying? Or that they misunderstood, but their testimony is basically honest? Because one line of argument undercuts the other.

Miko and Hinjo do not need to convince the SG that they are right and Shojo is lying, beyond a reasonable doubt, based on their testimony. They only need to convince the SG that there is good enough reason to investigate carefully, at which point Shojo's gig is up.

The Order is available to testify, and the Order is not on such good terms with Shojo as to be inclined to lie for him.

(Please keep in mind that IMO Shojo did not break the laws of Azure City, and thus his removal as leader of the city is unlikely.)

[Kish]

That seems like extreme cherry-picking of the full data.

I'd go further than that and say it seems like an outright fabrication. They heard him loudly announcing that he rigged the trial and went out of his way to break the Oath of the Sapphire Guard, explicitly hiding it from them because he was certain they would not see justification for it. They did not "vaguely hear him say something to the foreigner that sounded bad."

[Keltest]

I'd go further than that and say it seems like an outright fabrication. They heard him loudly announcing that he rigged the trial and went out of his way to break the Oath of the Sapphire Guard, explicitly hiding it from them because he was certain they would not see justification for it. They did not "vaguely hear him say something to the foreigner that sounded bad."

Lest it be forgotten, however, none of that is actually illegal. At worst, Shojo stands to be ousted from his position as leader of the Sapphire Guard, but he is still the legally appointed ruler of the city, an office which is entirely separate from the position, and unless there is some law about how the ruler of Azure City needs to be lawful or something, they don't really have the grounds to remove him from office, let alone put him on trial for anything.

[Jasdoif]

They feel entitled to secretly execute people after a secret trial under their own authority. Roy questioned the jurisdiction claims, and was told that the Sapphire Guard, not Azure City, claims jurisdiction. Public trial on the authority of Azure City may not go so well.

Banan-analysis has shown me three potential courses that could result in grounds for a public trail.

• If Azure City grants the clergy of the Twelve Gods the right to hold trials of their own, Shojo rigging such a trial would be abusing the privilege granted by Azure City.
• If Azure City does not allow the clergy of Twelve Gods the right to hold trials of their own, Shojo holding a "private" trial is an affront to Azure City's legal system.
• Belkar was held in jail pending the murder trial of the guard he murdered. Shojo arranging for and covering Belkar's jailbreak poses all sorts of interference.

(Please keep in mind that IMO Shojo did not break the laws of Azure City, and thus his removal as leader of the city is unlikely.)

That would make arresting him a rather complicated or meaningless affair.

[Peelee]

Banan-analysis has shown me three potential courses that could result in grounds for a public trail.

• If Azure City grants the clergy of the Twelve Gods the right to hold trials of their own, Shojo rigging such a trial would be abusing the privilege granted by Azure City.

I fully agree.

• If Azure City does not allow the clergy of Twelve Gods the right to hold trials of their own, Shojo holding a "private" trial is an affront to Azure City's legal system.

If the Paladins would vouch that his trials were had repurcussions that were illegal under Azurite law (we have no idea if mock trails or private trials with perfectly legal repurcussions are permitted, so in the absence of any evidence either way, I choose to believe they are). Since the Sapphire Guard is willing to participate in these trials, they clearly believe it is for the greater good, so they may wish to refrain from tesitfying, lest they limit their own ability to serve.

• Belkar was held in jail pending the murder trial of the guard he murdered. Shojo arranging for and covering Belkar's jailbreak poses all sorts of interference.

Eh, this one's tricky. Pardoning certainly exists, even if we don't know if Shojo has that power. I choose to believe he does, since he integrates the freed prisoners into the public army.

[Jasdoif]

Eh, this one's tricky. Pardoning certainly exists, even if we don't know if Shojo has that power. I choose to believe he does, since he integrates the freed prisoners into the public army.

While likely true, Shojo went as far as to have Belkar's absence concealed with a permanent illusion in the cell. If Shojo actually pardoned Belkar, there wouldn't be any outstanding charges to hold him for at all.

[Peelee]

While likely true, Shojo went as far as to have Belkar's absence concealed with a permanent illusion in the cell. If Shojo actually pardoned Belkar, there wouldn't be any outstanding charges to hold him for at all.

True. Best I can come up with is that he didn't want Belkar's pardon to be public knowledge for some reason, but that's mighty thin, in addition to wholly unsupported

[Snails]

The problem I have with legal banan-analysis is it is so easy to slip up on the a-peel.

Other than that, I agree.

[Kish]

Shojo (speaking, as he emphasized, as Sapphire Commander and not as Lord of Azure City) claimed universal jurisdiction by divine mandate right in front of Hinjo.

I don't think him trying to play the "the Sapphire Guard can't put me on trial! They have no jurisdiction!" card would play well. The only question I see, is whether he violated the laws (of the Sapphire Guard, not of Azure City) in some way that would result in some form of punishment that, as a side effect, would result in his ability to rule Azure City being...slightly impaired. That's not something that can be known for certain without explicit knowledge of the laws in question, but I would point out that no one contested that he had in fact done something that could get him removed from the throne.

[Kurald Galain]

Would Shojo claim that both Miko and Hinjo are outright lying? Or that they misunderstood, but their testimony is basically honest? Because one line of argument undercuts the other.

The latter, clearly. They're both paladins, "the paladin is lying" is not a good argument to start a case with.

However, first consider how much they've actually heard. Hinjo and Miko are not "just standing there". They're approaching the throne room with urgent news, and TGWAH and O-Chul are guarding the way in (and are clearly far enough away that they don't hear anything). Neither Hinjo nor Miko is the type for stealthy eavesdropping, more for rushing in from indignation.

So they've probably only heard panel 11, maybe panel 10. That's plenty bad already, but not nearly as bad as e.g. panel 3 and 4.

Just because Hinjo wants to bring him to the authorities doesn't mean the authorities will listen. Even if there (somehow) was an investigation of Shojo doesn't mean that it'll turn up anything (think Shojo has never been scrutinized before?) And aside from that Eugene is still in a good position to cover for everything.

[Jasdoif]

And aside from that Eugene is still in a good position to cover for everything.

Spoiler: War and XPs bonus strips

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Shojo dismisses Eugene in 310b, not long after the trial. Getting Eugene specifically back again would be...rather difficult, I'm pretty sure.

[Kish]

Miko explicitly referenced the contents of panel 4 (Shojo conspired with a ghost; Shojo rigged the trial), 6 (Shojo fakes senility), 7 (Shojo asked for Belkar's approval), and something about justice being an inconvenience that sounds a lot like a paraphrase of panel 1 to me (comic under debate, for reference). This "they only heard a couple innocuous panels" thing is insupportable.

[Kurald Galain]

Spoiler: War and XPs bonus strips

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Shojo dismisses Eugene in 310b, not long after the trial. Getting Eugene specifically back again would be...rather difficult, I'm pretty sure.

That's good to know.

But regardless of that, remember Trial Of The Century and consider that Shojo is much better at this than Kubota. If Kubota is confident that he can get away with murder with witnesses, then it's very plausible that Shojo can get away with getting caught in a lie.

[Kish]

Kubota was explicitly immune to having his lies magically detected. And frankly, not only do I not see proof of what you're saying to "consider," it doesn't even look like the way to bet to me. Kubota was able to remain the second most powerful nobleman among the Azure City refugees while everyone knew he was evil and wanted the ruler dead and anyone who thought about it knew he was the reason they were regularly being attacked by monsters, sacrificing nothing for his deceptions until he--like Shojo--got suddenly one-shotted by someone he didn't recognize as a threat; Shojo's solution to people like Kubota was to fake senility, in effect sacrificing all his credibility as a serious leader for them not taking him seriously enough to kill. Kubota was a lot better at deception, at manipulation, and at recognizing when to use a tool other than deception and manipulation than Shojo.

[Peelee]

Shojo (speaking, as he emphasized, as Sapphire Commander and not as Lord of Azure City) claimed universal jurisdiction by divine mandate right in front of Hinjo.

I don't think him trying to play the "the Sapphire Guard can't put me on trial! They have no jurisdiction!" card would play well.

I agree, but I do think "Azure City can't put me on trial, they have no jurisdiction" would play better, and since Hinjo and Miko both assumed it would go to the magistrates and the courts, and not tried by the Sapphire Guard directly.

[Kurald Galain]

I agree, but I do think "Azure City can't put me on trial, they have no jurisdiction" would play better, and since Hinjo and Miko both assumed it would go to the magistrates and the courts, and not tried by the Sapphire Guard directly.

Yep.

Interestingly, it is entirely common for countries to have no way (or no practical way) to sue, impeach, or otherwise legally charge the guy in charge. Shojo can quite literally invoke Screw The Rules, I Make Them and there is not much Hinjo can do about that.

Frankly, the normal way in which fantasy countries deal with unwanted or corrupt leaders is having a party of adventurers kill them and take over. Unfortunately for Hinjo, the currently available party has better things to do. This legal talk is all very nice, but dragging the local ruler to the magistrate is absolutely not how such things normally work in fantasy realms, and should not be expected to just work without a hitch.

[Forum Explorer]

Yep.

Interestingly, it is entirely common for countries to have no way (or no practical way) to sue, impeach, or otherwise legally charge the guy in charge. Shojo can quite literally invoke Screw The Rules, I Make Them and there is not much Hinjo can do about that.

Frankly, the normal way in which fantasy countries deal with unwanted or corrupt leaders is having a party of adventurers kill them and take over. Unfortunately for Hinjo, the currently available party has better things to do. This legal talk is all very nice, but dragging the local ruler to the magistrate is absolutely not how such things normally work in fantasy realms, and should not be expected to just work without a hitch.

I believe they would charge Shojo with treason, which would be really bloody hard to prove, but I think it is a crime that you can expect even a fantasy ruler to actually face.

[Jasdoif]

Interestingly, it is entirely common for countries to have no way (or no practical way) to sue, impeach, or otherwise legally charge the guy in charge. Shojo can quite literally invoke Screw The Rules, I Make Them and there is not much Hinjo can do about that.

Spoiler: War and XPs Bonus Content

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It's specifically called out that the Lord of Azure City is accountable to the law, as are the nobles; and it's explicitly mentioned that the Lord is strictly bound by law in regards to what punishments he can put on the nobles. How much of the law Shojo can get around is debatable, but it's pretty clear that he doesn't have actual carte blanche.


It's somewhat amazing how many Azure City scenarios come up on the forums that the Stick Planet Travel Guide to the Southern Lands has relevant information for.

[Kish]

I'm also somewhat amused by the thought that what I would consider the logical extension of some of these arguments, is that Miko's only mistake was not waiting one minute for Hinjo to finish arguing out Shojo's untouchability and then say, "Well, as much as I hate to say it, it looks like there's only one solution here that doesn't leave the Sapphire Guard as an unrestrained dictator's catspaws."

[Jasdoif]

I'm also somewhat amused by the thought that what I would consider the logical extension of some of these arguments, is that Miko's only mistake was not waiting one minute for Hinjo to finish arguing out Shojo's untouchability and then say, "Well, as much as I hate to say it, it looks like there's only one solution here that doesn't leave the Sapphire Guard as an unrestrained dictator's catspaws."

It'd make a nice parallel with Kubota's demise...and yes, equating Miko and Vaarsuvius would be amusing.

[Peelee]

I'm also somewhat amused by the thought that what I would consider the logical extension of some of these arguments, is that Miko's only mistake was not waiting one minute for Hinjo to finish arguing out Shojo's untouchability and then say, "Well, as much as I hate to say it, it looks like there's only one solution here that doesn't leave the Sapphire Guard as an unrestrained dictator's catspaws."

And the logical extension of that being, "vigilante execution still being evil, that solution is for the Sapphire Guard to renounce their oath to obey said dictator?"

[Porthos]

Precisely. Honor also includes not overthrowing your long-lasting ruler and head of state just because a known lunatic and the guy who will inherit the position allege something.

O-Chul! Lien! You've got to help me! Shojo has betrayed us and has never spoken the truth and was manipulated into doing this by the evil order of that murderous halfing who are in league with the lich and now they're going to kill every noble and take over the city!
: Wait, what?
: Take over the city? The guy has been in charge for decades.
: There's a lich now?
: And how can he have been manipulated by those adventurers that showed up last week?
We've got to get the Guard together and depose him! He's gotten rid of all the early warning beacons and I'm the only one who has seen the lich and it's going to invade the city now! And we need to kill those evil adventurers!
: If you're the only one who knows about this lich, we should start mobilizing against the lich instead of speaking ill about your liege.
: Wait, I know how to solve this. *Uses detect evil, Shojo pings as 'still not evil'* Well, that settles that. SAAAAY Miko, I hear there's an important missive that needs to be sent to Westeros, how about you go and do that instead?
*facepalm*

You don't think they would care at least a little bit about Shojo breaking their most scared oath?

[Jasdoif]

"....that solution is for the Sapphire Guard to renounce their oath to obey said dictator?"

That'd be pretty ineffectual without removing the Sapphire Guard from Shojo's secular authority as well, by removing themselves from the Azure City nation entirely. Which would be awfully nice of them, seeing as that's basically what Miko is accusing Shojo of trying to accomplish in the first place.

[Peelee]

That'd be pretty ineffectual without removing the Sapphire Guard from Shojo's secular authority as well, by removing themselves from the Azure City nation entirely. Which would be awfully nice of them, seeing as that's basically what Miko is accusing Shojo of trying to accomplish in the first place.

Why? What would Shojo do, kill them? Exile them? On the brink of war with a goblin army led by a powerful lich, a large group of class-level-having NPCS to bolster the army with can hardly be discounted. Sure, Miko may have seen no option other than to exterminate him, but no surprise there. Hinjo, however, is more level-headed. And I doubt he would leave the city to fight a war without the help of the Sapphire Guard just because of the actions of one man. The logistics could be worked out after the war.

[Jasdoif]

Why? What would Shojo do, kill them? Exile them? On the brink of war with a goblin army led by a powerful lich, a large group of class-level-having NPCS to bolster the army with can hardly be discounted. Sure, Miko may have seen no option other than to exterminate him, but no surprise there. Hinjo, however, is more level-headed. And I doubt he would leave the city to fight a war without the help of the Sapphire Guard just because of the actions of one man. The logistics could be worked out after the war.

Doing exactly what Shojo would want them to do anyway makes renouncing their oath to obey him a meaningless gesture, yes.

[Peelee]

Doing exactly what Shojo would want them to do anyway makes renouncing their oath to obey him a meaningless gesture, yes.

A broken clock is right twice a day. If Shojo recommends a course of action that they believe is the right thing to do anyway, then I don't think they're still dancing to his tune anymore, they just happen to agree on something.

[Jasdoif]

If Shojo recommends a course of action that they believe is the right thing to do anyway, then I don't think they're still dancing to his tune anymore, they just happen to agree on something.

That's just it, though: Suggesting actions to the paladins when they'll approve, and going behind their backs when they won't, is his tune. And if they'll still take actions when he suggests them even after renouncing their oath to obey him...well, then it'd sure sound like the oath had nothing to do with their obedience at all.


Further, let's suppose that Hinjo and Miko do wait until after Xykon's army is dealt with to work out the logistics, as you say. Barring a major shift (Shojo being killed or the Gate being destroyed being the most obvious possibilities), the logistics are going to be the same as they were before. In the hypothetical that started this off, those logistics are that Shojo hasn't done anything he can be held accountable for under Azure City's laws, so arresting him isn't a viable option.

What then? I'm sure renouncing their obedience would make the paladins of the Sapphire Guard feel better about themselves, but as long as they're citizens of Azure City they're still subject to his secular authority. Going a step further, resolving to decline his commands/suggestions and resist his sanctions, would make his life slightly more difficult...while the Sapphire Guard would have to shirk their paladin-y responsibilities based purely on who informed them of it. Meanwhile, Shojo would just need to arrange for appropriately circumspect chains of messengers...or if push really comes to shove, go slightly outside the Sapphire Guard's members into the wider group of the Twelve Gods' paladins to get stuff done instead, assuming he strictly needs paladins in the first place.


So. Long term result of the Sapphire Guard renouncing their oath to obey Shojo while remaining in Azure City...is that Shojo has to work a little bit harder, while the Sapphire Guard prove their sense of commitment is so negligible that they'll break an oath over behavior they'll still be complicit in. That "solution" says far more about the Sapphire Guard than it does about Shojo.

[Peelee]

That's just it, though: Suggesting actions to the paladins when they'll approve, and going behind their backs when they won't, is his tune. And if they'll still take actions when he suggests them even after renouncing their oath to obey him...well, then it'd sure sound like the oath had nothing to do with their obedience at all.

Except the actions they take and the actions he suggest have nothing to do with each other, aside from happening to be the same.

If the King Al's kingdom is attacked by the armies of King Bob, and the peasant Chuck says that King Al should defend his land, that doesn't mean King Al is taking advice from Chuck, just that his course of action happens to be the same as what Chuck said.