The Stick's worst blunder: vote now!

[Jasdoif]

Except the actions they take and the actions he suggest have nothing to do with each other, aside from happening to be the same.

Exactly: the Sapphire Guard renouncing their oath to obey Shojo doesn't meaningfully alter Shojo's actions, or their own, at all. It just makes them feel better about doing them, and shows that's enough for them to break oaths over.

[Peelee]

Exactly: the Sapphire Guard renouncing their oath to obey Shojo doesn't meaningfully alter Shojo's actions, or their own, at all. It just makes them feel better about doing them, and shows that's enough for them to break oaths over.

Except things like rigging secret Sapphire Guard trials, which should be enough to make a paladin rethink the validity of said oath.

[Jasdoif]

Except things like rigging secret Sapphire Guard trials, which should be enough to make a paladin rethink the validity of said oath.

Making them feel better about themselves, while leaving him free to rig other trials the exact same way. (Actually, I'm somewhat curious what distinction Azure City law would have between "Sapphire Guard trials" and any other "private" trial Shojo might choose to hold; the Sapphire Guard isn't a publicly known organization so it's not like there's a membership roster or meeting notes the magistrates could look at. Could Shojo simply claim other trials are "Sapphire Guard trials" without the Sapphire Guard's approval?)

[Peelee]

Making them feel better about themselves, while leaving him free to rig other trials the exact same way. (Actually, I'm somewhat curious what distinction Azure City law would have between "Sapphire Guard trials" and any other "private" trial Shojo might choose to hold; the Sapphire Guard isn't a publicly known organization so it's not like there's a membership roster or meeting notes the magistrates could look at. Could Shojo simply claim other trials are "Sapphire Guard trials" without the Sapphire Guard's approval?)

Possibly, but it'd sure as hell be harder to do without his private secret army. Besides, with that attitude, why fight evil at all? It'd just be making then feel good about themselves while evil prevails elsewhere, such as on the Western Continent.

I don't think preventing what they can is something to minimize to the extent of "does nothing but makes them feel good about themselves."

[Jasdoif]

I don't think preventing what they can is something to minimize to the extent of "does nothing but makes them feel good about themselves."

Renouncing their oath but otherwise letting Shojo go about his business is not "preventing what they can". That's the point. It's the same conceptual structure as letting Xykon's army kill the rest of Azure City, just as long as they aren't in his army doing the killing and they aren't being killed themselves. I suppose it's a solid enough Neutral baseline, but I find I expect more out of Good paladins than that.


Miko's approach, of course, is to destroy the threat to her worldview remove Shojo's influence completely and expediently. Which is rather the complete opposite, a "damn the consequences, full speed ahead!" vs "retreat!" Anyway...If the Sapphire Guard is serious about correcting rather than removing Shojo, not removing the most obvious way to influence him would be a better idea. As you mentioned, Shojo having a private army is rather convenient, and he could be motivated to retain their willing service...unless they withdraw their willingness but not their service, at which point their approval is much more meaningless to Shojo.

[Peelee]

Renouncing their oath but otherwise letting Shojo go about his business is not "preventing what they can". That's the point. It's the same conceptual structure as letting Xykon's army kill the rest of Azure City, just as long as they aren't in his army doing the killing and they aren't being killed themselves. I suppose it's a solid enough Neutral baseline, but I find I expect more out of Good paladins than that.

I disagree; if Shojo had acted within the law, then they cannot relive him from power legally. If he is not doing evil, then they cannot kill him in order to protect others. If he is acting against divine will, then they can certainly try him as agents of the Twelve Gods. That they never brought up that possibility suggests that it is not the case. Thus, doing all they can. It is not equatable to doing nothing in a war. Shojo's actions aren't killing thousands of innocent people.

Also, i would like to clarify my position on them renouncing the oath; I think you believe I meant the oath in its entirety, when I only mean their servitude to Shojo specifically.

[Jasdoif]

I disagree; if Shojo had acted within the law, then they cannot relive him from power legally. If he is not doing evil, then they cannot kill him in order to protect others. If he is acting against divine will, then they can certainly try him as agents of the Twelve Gods. That they never brought up that possibility suggests that it is not the case. Thus, doing all they can. It is not equatable to doing nothing in a war. Shojo's actions aren't killing thousands of innocent people.

Ah....So, you're saying that renouncing their oath to obey Shojo isn't doing nothing, but Shojo's behavior that they'd be renouncing their oaths over isn't worth them doing anything about?

I'd also say Miko did bring up the possibility of Shojo acting against divine will, and quite strongly....

[Peelee]

Ah....So, you're saying that renouncing their oath to obey Shojo isn't doing nothing, but Shojo's behavior that they'd be renouncing their oaths over isn't worth them doing anything about?

I'd also say Miko did bring up the possibility of Shojo acting against divine will, and quite strongly....

I'm saying that Shojo's behavior tricks the Paladins into acting against how they otherwise would (such as rigging a trial based on their oath and beliefs tricked them into accepting the innocence of the Order of the Stick, who admitted to themselves they were indeed guilty of the charge), but is not harmful to others to the extent that they could forcibly remove him from office. At least, not without facing a litany of legal issues afterwards.

Big enough to split over, not big enough to fall over.

Also, yes, Miko did indeed bring up that possibility. I do not believe it worked out well for her.

[Keltest]

I'm saying that Shojo's behavior tricks the Paladins into acting against how they otherwise would (such as rigging a trial based on their oath and beliefs tricked them into accepting the innocence of the Order of the Stick, who admitted to themselves they were indeed guilty of the charge), but is not harmful to others to the extent that they could forcibly remove him from office. At least, not without facing a litany of legal issues afterwards.

Big enough to split over, not big enough to fall over.

Also, yes, Miko did indeed bring up that possibility. I do not believe it worked out well for her.

I would like to point out, for a moment, that the Guard only believed in the guilt of the Order in the first place because of Shojo. He has, for the most part, been trying to get them to act in their own best interests while still allowing them to hold to the things important to them, like honor.

[Kish]

I disagree; if Shojo had acted within the law, then they cannot relive him from power legally. If he is not doing evil, then they cannot kill him in order to protect others. If he is acting against divine will, then they can certainly try him as agents of the Twelve Gods. That they never brought up that possibility suggests that it is not the case.

Panels 1-8: Hinjo is talking about Shojo's personal betrayal of Hinjo.

Panel 9: Hinjo says "Save it for the magistrates. It will be up to the courts to decide what happens next."

Panels 10-on: Miko takes over, and the only conclusion she's interested in is that everyone in the room except Hinjo and herself works for Xykon.

You're putting a lot of weight on Hinjo not having fit an extra line that says "and if the secular courts won't try you the Sapphire Guard will" into panel 9 and into the conversation-space before Miko starts talking.

(Whatever Shojo is to be put on trial for and whoever would try him, no one ever brought up the possibility of him getting clean away with it either, and I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people here who are prepared to argue that he would have done so. I freely concede that I don't know what the specific charge he would have been convicted of would have been, but the narrative shape looks pretty unmistakable to me that he would have been removed from the throne for something. Belkar's explanation for Shojo not accepting resurrection also hinges on Shojo being thrown in prison if he came back; Shojo looks even worse if it was based on, "I could argue my way out of the charges and organize the city defense--or hells, just scoff my way out of the charges, they have no authority to try me anyway--but meh, too much effort involved" rather than "I don't want to be thrown in prison.")

[Jasdoif]

I'm saying that Shojo's behavior tricks the Paladins into acting against how they otherwise would (such as rigging a trial based on their oath and beliefs tricked them into accepting the innocence of the Order of the Stick, who admitted to themselves they were indeed guilty of the charge), but is not harmful to others to the extent that they could forcibly remove him from office. At least, not without facing a litany of legal issues afterwards.

Hm....you're saying it falls in the narrow band where his behavior affects them personally, but not their cause; and that if a Miko-esque theory of culpability (like a claim that Xykon only knows Azure City had a Gate because he had the Order of the Stick tell him, because Shojo told them as an exception to state secrets during the trial, which he had rigged the result of so he had ulterior motives to make that exception; making Shojo's decisions responsible for the imminent danger facing Azure City) were accepted they might accept facing such a litany of legal issues to end the threat posed?

[Keltest]

Panels 1-8: Hinjo is talking about Shojo's personal betrayal of Hinjo.

Panel 9: Hinjo says "Save it for the magistrates. It will be up to the courts to decide what happens next."

Panels 10-on: Miko takes over, and the only conclusion she's interested in is that everyone in the room except Hinjo works for Xykon.

You're putting a lot of weight on Hinjo not having fit an extra line that says "and if the secular courts won't try you the Sapphire Guard will" into panel 9 and into the conversation-space before Miko starts talking.

(Whatever Shojo is to be put on trial for and whoever would try him, no one ever brought up the possibility of him getting clean away with it either, and I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people here who are prepared to argue that he would have done so. I freely concede that I don't know what the specific charge he would have been convicted of would have been, but the narrative shape looks pretty unmistakable to me that he would have been removed from the throne for something. Belkar's explanation for Shojo not accepting resurrection also hinges on Shojo being thrown in prison if he came back; Shojo looks even worse if it was based on, "I could argue my way out of the charges and organize the city defense--or hells, just scoff my way out of the charges, they have no authority to try me anyway--but meh, too much effort involved" rather than "I don't want to be thrown in prison.")

Whether or not he could eventually talk his way out of the charges doesn't mean he wouldn't be charged in the first place, and made to go through trial. He certainly wouldn't be allowed to continue to rule Azure City unimpeded while the courts went through the evidence, let alone marshal the defenses against an invading army. He's close to the end of his life anyway, so its not at all out of the question that a stint in jail would be the end of him even if Azure City had won the siege, as well.

[Peelee]

Hm....you're saying it falls in the narrow band where his behavior affects them personally, but not their cause; and that if a Miko-esque theory of culpability (like a claim that Xykon only knows Azure City had a Gate because he had the Order of the Stick tell him, because Shojo told them as an exception to state secrets during the trial, which he had rigged the result of so he had ulterior motives to make that exception; making Shojo's decisions responsible for the imminent danger facing Azure City) were accepted they might accept facing such a litany of legal issues to end the threat posed?

I'm saying there are more options than either complete servitude or revolt against a had of state.

[Jasdoif]

I'm saying there are more options than either complete servitude or revolt against a had of state.

Absolutely! There's getting out of Dodge Azure City, reasoning with Shojo about how he and they can do better if they more closely align their methods, starting a side operation of selectively supporting nobles' initiatives when they're more in line with the Sapphire Guard's goals than Shojo's, forming an organization that garners enough popular/noble support that it's much more of a problem for Shojo to oppose them, pursing other approaches that I haven't thought of yet...and then there's deeming the situation unworthy of their attention and washing their hands of it.

[Peelee]

Absolutely! There's getting out of Dodge Azure City, reasoning with Shojo about how he and they can do better if they more closely align their methods, starting a side operation of selectively supporting nobles' initiatives when they're more in line with the Sapphire Guard's goals than Shojo's, forming an organization that garners enough popular/noble support that it's much more of a problem for Shojo to oppose them, pursing other approaches that I haven't thought of yet...and then there's deeming the situation unworthy of their attention and washing their hands of it.

Point taken. Except for that first suggestion. I don't think they'd completely abandon the gate so easily.

[Jasdoif]

Point taken. Except for that first suggestion. I don't think they'd completely abandon the gate so easily.

Okay, yeah, while it's definitely an option it's a pretty weak one. Well, unless it were the start of a "paladin expatriates found covert action group to protect doomsday artifact in home country from being exploited by unwitting or sinister forces" campaign.

...wait, isn't that close to the situation the Sapphire Guard and Azure City are in now?

[Peelee]

Okay, yeah, while it's definitely an option it's a pretty weak one. Well, unless it were the start of a "paladin expatriates found covert action group to protect doomsday artifact in home country from being exploited by unwitting or sinister forces" campaign.

...wait, isn't that close to the situation the Sapphire Guard and Azure City are in now?

You're right. Man, they could have saved a bunch of time just by thinking ahead a bit.

[Snails]

You're right. Man, they could have saved a bunch of time just by thinking ahead a bit.

Miko was totally right about everything, obviously.

[Sunken Valley]

The biggest blunder the Order made was forming in the first place. Almost every problem in the comic can ultimately be traced back to them as the cause.

[Forum Explorer]

The biggest blunder the Order made was forming in the first place. Almost every problem in the comic can ultimately be traced back to them as the cause.

Except Xykon eventually just capturing a baby, breaking the ward, and using the ritual to mess with the Gates with who knows what consequences. At best the Gods are bullied into conceding a bunch of stuff to the Dark One. At worst, the world is destroyed, remade, and goblins get equal rights that way.

[Sunken Valley]

Except Xykon eventually just capturing a baby, breaking the ward, and using the ritual to mess with the Gates with who knows what consequences. At best the Gods are bullied into conceding a bunch of stuff to the Dark One. At worst, the world is destroyed, remade, and goblins get equal rights that way.

Would Xykon and Redcloak have worked that out? I don't think they would have on their own given their prior accomplishments (would Redcloak have even jolted out of servile butler mode had Xykon not died?). The only way they could have found out was if another told them. And Nale wouldn't have targeted the Order had it not founded.

[Forum Explorer]

Would Xykon and Redcloak have worked that out? I don't think they would have on their own given their prior accomplishments (would Redcloak have even jolted out of servile butler mode had Xykon not died?). The only way they could have found out was if another told them. And Nale wouldn't have targeted the Order had it not founded.

I'd say it's pretty likely. I mean, at the worst case, Xykon would get bored and just start throwing babies at the Gate. But I do think Nale would go after the Talisman regardless of the Order, and would just bring an innocent with them.

[Sunken Valley]

I'd say it's pretty likely. I mean, at the worst case, Xykon would get bored and just start throwing babies at the Gate. But I do think Nale would go after the Talisman regardless of the Order, and would just bring an innocent with them.

Nale would have failed to go after the Talisman. He'd never have gotten close. The only reason he got as far as he did was because Xykon gave him permission to dispatch the Order. Maybe Xykon would have not engaged Nale immediately. But hacking through Xykon's minions would have left a toll on the Linear Guild.

And of course, the ritual may not work as we think and could do nothing except anger Xykon for wasting 30 years and give the Dark One no meaningful tools to work with (if, as I suspect, there is no Snarl).

Regardless, everything post DCF (the fall of Azure City, the destruction of Girard's Gate, the destruction of the Weary Traveller's Inn, the Cliffport Massacre, Hel's plan, Familicide and the inferred devastation caused by the collapse of the Greysky Thieves Guild and the Vector Legion) can be placed on the Order.

[ti'esar]

Um. While there may not be a Snarl exactly as described in the crayon segments, the idea that Xykon and Redcloak couldn't do any harm screwing around with the rifts is pretty demonstrably false at this point.

(I'd also ask where you're coming up with, say, this "inferred devastation" stuff, but I kinda already have an idea).

[Kish]

(if, as I suspect, there is no Snarl).

What do you suspect that is in the big panel?

[Sunken Valley]

(I'd also ask where you're coming up with, say, this "inferred devastation" stuff, but I kinda already have an idea).

It's the power vacuum Greysky will have now that the Guild Master is dead and the eventual destruction of Tarquin and Friend's Empire by Amun-Zora and allies (especially bad as there were many ways the Order could have handled the Tarquin incident better and still have him, or at least his associates, as an ally).

What do you suspect that is in the big panel?

Some sort of force field or security system. Mi-Jung, The Goblin Chicken Cleric and Shattersmith only got attacked AFTER they poked around in the rift. Presumably somebody in the Scribble did something similar to provoke the barrier in such a way that resulted in Kraagor's sacrifice and that's why it got nasty between them.

What it's protecting, I don't know. Either the Snarl turned itself into a world whilst in the rift or it's something to do with the Greek Gods and how they're not actually as dead as claimed.

[Forum Explorer]

Nale would have failed to go after the Talisman. He'd never have gotten close. The only reason he got as far as he did was because Xykon gave him permission to dispatch the Order. Maybe Xykon would have not engaged Nale immediately. But hacking through Xykon's minions would have left a toll on the Linear Guild.

And of course, the ritual may not work as we think and could do nothing except anger Xykon for wasting 30 years and give the Dark One no meaningful tools to work with (if, as I suspect, there is no Snarl).

Regardless, everything post DCF (the fall of Azure City, the destruction of Girard's Gate, the destruction of the Weary Traveller's Inn, the Cliffport Massacre, Hel's plan, Familicide and the inferred devastation caused by the collapse of the Greysky Thieves Guild and the Vector Legion) can be placed on the Order.

It's not like it took much of a toll on the Order. They were doing relatively fine before they met Nale.

I'd put that as middle of the line. Xykon would then go around murdering and rampaging. Partly because he's pissed, partly because he would try and conquer the world the old fashioned way. Bottom line, Xykon is a major problem for the world, and that's not going to go away just because his plan with the Gates fail. He has to be destroyed, or something equivalent to that. The world is not safe so long as he is around.

Why? Because Xykon would still be doing stuff. Those specific things might not have happened, but a bunch of other bad stuff would.

Azure City would still likely be destroyed, if not by Xykon, then by the Dark One getting concessions from the 12 Gods. (AKA, better land and vengeance for the Hobgoblins.)

Girard's Gate, sure. That's directly V's fault, and she's been empowered by the Order.

The destruction of the Inn sure. But then the King would be assassinated, which likely would cause a lot more problems then the destruction of a single inn, in which not a single person died anyways.

The Cliffport Massacre wouldn't happen. But Nale would still be around, still be Evil, and wouldn't be weakening himself by constantly picking fights with the Order. He also wouldn't have any reason to go back to the Empire of Blood and get himself killed. Instead he'd likely be a high level assistant to Xykon on a rampage, or simply an evil adventuring party out of power.

Familicide: Same situation as Girard's Gate really.

Gresky Thief's Guild: BS. The Guild didn't need to pursue it's vendetta against Haley. At any point. You can't tell me a guild of Rogues has a problem with the Bluff skill. Yeah, the Order destroyed them. Yeah that creates a power vacuum, but that's more a consequence of the Order defending themselves, and not their responsibility. Also, the Guild wasn't good. It's unlikely to happen because Gresky is a crappy place anyways, but there is at least a chance that someone good will take control instead.

The Vector Legion is fine. Seriously, only Malack died, and Tarquin might be having a breakdown. The rest of the Legion can run things without them just fine. And killing Malack was a good act, he would've committed mass genocide once the Vector Legion passed away. The rest of them aren't much better. If the rebellion succeeds, then a group of villainous and tyrannical people will have been overthrown. That's a good thing.

[Kish]

It's the power vacuum Greysky will have now that the Guild Master is dead and the eventual destruction of Tarquin and Friend's Empire by Amun-Zora and allies (especially bad as there were many ways the Order could have handled the Tarquin incident better and still have him, or at least his associates, as an ally).



Some sort of force field or security system. Mi-Jung, The Goblin Chicken Cleric and Shattersmith only got attacked AFTER they poked around in the rift. Presumably somebody in the Scribble did something similar to provoke the barrier in such a way that resulted in Kraagor's sacrifice and that's why it got nasty between them.

Especially...bad? The destruction of a cartoonishly evil empire opposed to the Order by a predominantly neutral rebellion allied with the Order is especially bad because the Order could have allied with the cartoonishly evil empire somehow? Assuming whatever replaces Bozzok will be worse than Bozzok, while unsupported, is at least not aggressively flying in the face of what's on the page.

[Sunken Valley]

It's not like it took much of a toll on the Order. They were doing relatively fine before they met Nale.

I'd put that as middle of the line. Xykon would then go around murdering and rampaging. Partly because he's pissed, partly because he would try and conquer the world the old fashioned way. Bottom line, Xykon is a major problem for the world, and that's not going to go away just because his plan with the Gates fail. He has to be destroyed, or something equivalent to that. The world is not safe so long as he is around.

Why? Because Xykon would still be doing stuff. Those specific things might not have happened, but a bunch of other bad stuff would.

Azure City would still likely be destroyed, if not by Xykon, then by the Dark One getting concessions from the 12 Gods. (AKA, better land and vengeance for the Hobgoblins.)

Girard's Gate, sure. That's directly V's fault, and she's been empowered by the Order.

The destruction of the Inn sure. But then the King would be assassinated, which likely would cause a lot more problems then the destruction of a single inn, in which not a single person died anyways.

The Cliffport Massacre wouldn't happen. But Nale would still be around, still be Evil, and wouldn't be weakening himself by constantly picking fights with the Order. He also wouldn't have any reason to go back to the Empire of Blood and get himself killed. Instead he'd likely be a high level assistant to Xykon on a rampage, or simply an evil adventuring party out of power.

Familicide: Same situation as Girard's Gate really.

Gresky Thief's Guild: BS. The Guild didn't need to pursue it's vendetta against Haley. At any point. You can't tell me a guild of Rogues has a problem with the Bluff skill. Yeah, the Order destroyed them. Yeah that creates a power vacuum, but that's more a consequence of the Order defending themselves, and not their responsibility. Also, the Guild wasn't good. It's unlikely to happen because Gresky is a crappy place anyways, but there is at least a chance that someone good will take control instead.

The Vector Legion is fine. Seriously, only Malack died, and Tarquin might be having a breakdown. The rest of the Legion can run things without them just fine. And killing Malack was a good act, he would've committed mass genocide once the Vector Legion passed away. The rest of them aren't much better. If the rebellion succeeds, then a group of villainous and tyrannical people will have been overthrown. That's a good thing.

Who says the Order will stop Xykon? Maybe they won't. Maybe O'Chul will do it after Team Evil backstabs itself to weakness. And if that's the case, the Order will look even less competent.

Azure City fell because of the fall of Miko and the death of Shojo. Without Miko blowing up the gate and with Shojo's superior tactical acumen, the fight would have been won for Azure City (or at the very least, Soon would have killed Xykon).

The king wouldn't have been killed. He was never at the Inn. And the Shadow Dancer might have still done it by now, they're in Nowhere according to the Thanh flashback.

Saying that Nale wouldn't have gone after the Empire of Blood severely misunderstands Nale and his obsession with one-upping his family. Elan got the brunt of it, without him, Tarquin would get it. And Tarquin would have killed Nale eventually.

As for the Vector Legion, they could well be defeated by Amun-Zora, Ganji and Ian, all of whom got in that position because of the Order. The Vector Legion created stability from chaos. Without that subtle order, the Western continent will collapse into bickering nations for real. As for Malack, the Order never defeated him. Nale did.

EDIT:

Especially...bad? The destruction of a cartoonishly evil empire opposed to the Order by a predominantly neutral rebellion allied with the Order is especially bad because the Order could have allied with the cartoonishly evil empire somehow? Assuming whatever replaces Bozzok will be worse than Bozzok, while unsupported, is at least not aggressively flying in the face of what's on the page.

Why are they opposed? Tarquin was willing to give Elan all the help he needed. The Order need all the help they can get. Instead they risked failure to spite the high level overlord. Had Elan said the right thing, Tarquin may even have let Roy live. Even if he hadn't he could have told the indifferent high-level MIND READER about Xykon with his diplomacy check. It's in the Vector Legion's best interest that Xykon does not succeed. Shattersmith and Shewdanker could have vetoed Tarquin in that event.

Also, there's totally a big Blue Dragon willing to take Greysky City. That's confirmed.

[Forum Explorer]

Who says the Order will stop Xykon? Maybe they won't. Maybe O'Chul will do it after Team Evil backstabs itself to weakness. And if that's the case, the Order will look even less competent.

Azure City fell because of the fall of Miko and the death of Shojo. Without Miko blowing up the gate and with Shojo's superior tactical acumen, the fight would have been won for Azure City (or at the very least, Soon would have killed Xykon).

The king wouldn't have been killed. He was never at the Inn. And the Shadow Dancer might have still done it by now, they're in Nowhere according to the Thanh flashback.

Saying that Nale wouldn't have gone after the Empire of Blood severely misunderstands Nale and his obsession with one-upping his family. Elan got the brunt of it, without him, Tarquin would get it. And Tarquin would have killed Nale eventually.

As for the Vector Legion, they could well be defeated by Amun-Zora, Ganji and Ian, all of whom got in that position because of the Order. The Vector Legion created stability from chaos. Without that subtle order, the Western continent will collapse into bickering nations for real. As for Malack, the Order never defeated him. Nale did.

EDIT:

Why are they opposed? Tarquin was willing to give Elan all the help he needed. The Order need all the help they can get. Instead they risked failure to spite the high level overlord. Had Elan said the right thing, Tarquin may even have let Roy live. Even if he hadn't he could have told the indifferent high-level MIND READER about Xykon with his diplomacy check. It's in the Vector Legion's best interest that Xykon does not succeed. Shattersmith and Shewdanker could have vetoed Tarquin in that event.

Also, there's totally a big Blue Dragon willing to take Greysky City. That's confirmed.

O-Chul would still be being tortured by Redcloak and Xykon if it wasn't for the Order.

Only if Xykon was still after the Gate. And in this hypothetical he wouldn't be. Either the Gate's simply don't work, or he killed Redcloak after the ritual teleported it away. And lets be honest. There is nothing anyone would have been able to do against an epic level Sorcerer Lich outside of Soon and his Ghosts. He took out the entire Sapphire Guard with a single spell. And if he isn't after the Gate, he can avoid Soon by the simple tactic of leaving the room recharging and coming back tomorrow.

Sure he would have. The Assassin's didn't show up randomly. They were waiting for him to disrupt a peace conference. Remember? But instead of killing some NPC, they faced off against a well trained Fighter, and his team.

There's a good reason he didn't reveal himself immediately or try and stay in the Empire of Blood to start with. He would have tried eventually, to be sure. But only after gathering enough personal power so that he felt he could actually win the fight against the Vector Legion.

And if the Vector Legion stayed in control they will slaughter and oppress millions. You don't allow a tyrant to stay in power because things might be worse without them there. As for Nale, well if you are willing to blame the Order for all of the villains actions, you should give them their credit as well. Nale would have never been in position to pull that off without the Order being there.