Girl Genius XXI: Cancel the Jugglers

[geoduck]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment... how is this really all that different from the current batch of rulers? Remember that the zombie-like revenants where the mistake. Most waspped people can go about their lives with almost full free will - sure, they have to obey Lu's orders, but those won't happen that often; only about as often as the Baron used to come down and, gun to the head, told you do to something for him.

From the point of view of someone wanting to climb the leadership ladder, Lu is not all that different from Albia or the Master, and if she offers Paris in exchange for your help, well, it's a good offer.

(Yes, her method is a lot more invasive than gun-to-the head, but I'm at a loss as to how to compare it to the Master's, and everything we have heard from the UK is that it might be about as bad over there).

We still don't know what her ultimate goal is. If she really wants to "just" rule everything, I can see your point, I guess.. but.. in Othar's Twitter-based adventures, we see a Europa where The Other evidently won, and the entire continent was reduced to an uninhabited ruin. Was that her intention all along? We need more info.

[slayerx]

So anyone else remember abaxus's name being denis before today?

Playing devil's advocate for a moment... how is this really all that different from the current batch of rulers? Remember that the zombie-like revenants where the mistake. Most waspped people can go about their lives with almost full free will - sure, they have to obey Lu's orders, but those won't happen that often; only about as often as the Baron used to come down and, gun to the head, told you do to something for him.

From the point of view of someone wanting to climb the leadership ladder, Lu is not all that different from Albia or the Master, and if she offers Paris in exchange for your help, well, it's a good offer.

(Yes, her method is a lot more invasive than gun-to-the head, but I'm at a loss as to how to compare it to the Master's, and everything we have heard from the UK is that it might be about as bad over there).

Grey Wolf

Lu employs mass mind control to not only maintain absolute order but to also make sure all her wasped subjects worship her. Heck the wasped people only appear to have free will because they are sleeper agents; most don't even realize they are under her control under she enforces it. She does this not for their sake, but so that they can mix themselves into the regular population and infiltrate her enemies. Free will goes out the window once she asserts her control. Through the wasps she can and does force her subjects to fight and sacrifice themselves for her sake. The Baron and the master however really just enforce a rule of law just like any government. Heck if you don't like the laws you could just leave their territory and go live somewhere else. They also seem to respect disrespect against themselves. I mean the Baron is constantly ridiculed in heterodyne plays and books but he hasn't done anything to stop it. He even seems like he gives rulers a certain degree of Autonomy over their lands; like in the case of Dr.Beetle he only gave beetle ONE rule he had to follow. Really his only concern seems to be people maintaining the peace and not causing trouble.

They both also have a certain respect for territorial boundaries. The master limits himself to just paris. The Baron only takes control of lands that have been the source of conflict, as he ignored both Paris and England, and halted his expansion once he took control of most of eastern europe. Paris and England don't cause trouble so he never tried to bring them under his control. Really the Baron HATES ruling over europe and only it does it because he finds it as the only way to prevent wars and conflict between the various powers. And really i think the baron had long term plans for Europe's peace beyond his time; he took pains to raise the future rulers of europe, most likely in the hope that they would learn to respect peace and eachother and not follow in their parents footsteps.

As for Albia, hard to speak of her... however it does sound like her control over the UK could indeed just as bad as Lu's. Granted we do not know how far her control goes; she might make it impossible to oppose her, but she may not be forcing people to serve her. And she also hasn't shown a desire to expand her control beyond the UK

Also, indicates that the Master does not regard Beausoliel as a threat. Of course, pride goes before a loss of total control of Paris as the proverb has it, but I'm still betting on Simon Voltaire in a contest of wills.

Actually i think the master's point is that Beausoliel SHOULDN'T have been a threat. When the master was at the height of his power and control a man like Beausoliel would have been nothing and would have stood no chance. Its only in this time of weakened control that someone so petty and low could actually strike him

Speaking of that comment though, i'm interested in the description of "mechanical ghost". Could be that Beausoliel is technically already dead and just continues on through his clank bodies

[eschmenk]

Regarding what I would do if I were in Beausoleil's shoes...she's lost most human feeling...

Speaking of loosing human feeling, not only do I think you would be following Lucrezia if you were Beusoleil, I don't think you would even be human anymore. In the latest update, the MoP called him a "mechanical ghost." I could easily imagine that Beusoleil was once human, but preserved himself as an AI with a bunch of mechanical bodies to control. (Recall that the shopkeeper was a similar, but inferior, AI created to preserve the original person in that case, too.) Beusoleil said that he was inside the Paris systems. I think he meant that literally, so he's a bit like an Agent Smith inside the Matrix now, except the bodies he controls are outside the systems. (I have no idea how he manages to control them remotely; that may be a weakness that could be exploited.) That makes me wonder how much Beusoleil would care anymore about the well-being of flesh and blood humans. Even if not, I could see Lucrezia convincing Beusoleil that everyone would be better off with her in charge. I think she really believes that (or can't imagine otherwise) and I could imagine Beusoleil wanting to believe it.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment... how is this really all that different from the current batch of rulers?

To me, the biggest difference is that when Klaus or the MoP clamp down, they see that as a necessary evil. They at least are aware that they are causing harm and try to minimize the harm as a matter of principle. Lucrezia doesn't worry about that. Both Klaus and the MoP are concerned about fairness; Lucrezia isn't.

We still don't know what her ultimate goal is. If she really wants to "just" rule everything, I can see your point, I guess.. but.. in Othar's Twitter-based adventures, we see a Europa where The Other evidently won, and the entire continent was reduced to an uninhabited ruin. Was that her intention all along? We need more info.

I think we do know what her ultimate goal is: It's to rule everything. That's what she said and nothing else makes sense. The Foglios made it clear that Othar's twitter was non-canonical, so I would use caution when applying anything from it. That said, my interpretation is that in the alternate timeline, Lucrezia's attempt to take over resulted in a thermonuclear war with almost no survivors. Apparently she screwed up, yet again. I saw nothing to indicate that what happened was her desired outcome. It almost certainly wasn't, IMO.

So anyone else remember abaxus's name being denis before today?

I didn't remember, but I copied the artwork to my computer so I can reread the previous pages quicker. Yes, he was "Denis" on Monday's page. Also, I see you ninjaed me wrt Beausoleil's ghost.

[geoduck]

I think we do know what her ultimate goal is: It's to rule everything. That's what she said and nothing else makes sense. The Foglios made it clear that Othar's twitter was non-canonical, so I would use caution when applying anything from it.

In at least one 2008 interview, Phil said that it was canonical. Do you have a cite where he changed his mind?

[halfeye]

In at least one 2008 interview, Phil said that it was canonical. Do you have a cite where he changed his mind?

As I understood it he said it was canonically Othar's narrative, and any mistakes Othar makes, are Othar's, so it's as canonical as Othar is correct, which is unknown. I've not read Othar's Twitter, so I don't know how much difference that would make.

[eschmenk]

In at least one 2008 interview, Phil said that it was canonical. Do you have a cite where he changed his mind?

Well, even there he seems to be agreeing that Othar's narration isn't necessarily reliable. But yes, saying that they said that it's non-canonical is too simplistic. That's it's Othar's journal is canon; that it's historically accurate isn't. I was probably thinking of what they said about the side-stories occasionally inserted into the main comic. For example, Revenge of the Weasel Queen was called "apocryphal" right in the introduction. That's the same sort of thing, though. That it is a story told about Agatha is canonical. The happenings in the story, however, aren't.

As I understood it he said it was canonically Othar's narrative, and any mistakes Othar makes, are Othar's, so it's as canonical as Othar is correct, which is unknown. I've not read Othar's Twitter, so I don't know how much difference that would make.

Well, sometimes the (in)accuracy is kind of obvious. Othar sometimes corrects what he said earlier and sometimes things are pretty tongue-in-cheek. For a while, though, things became fairly serious and Othar wound up living on an island in the North Sea. Later, when Othar returned to the mainland, he found that Europa had been completely devastated. Finally, Othar's consciousness was sent back in time to prevent that outcome from happening. Long story short, that wound up being an alternate timeline that will never happen, and which Othar quickly forgot about, so it won't matter as far as the main story is concerned. However, it apparently does show what could have happened if Othar hadn't stayed in Eastern Europe and been captured by Grantz, then sent by Klaus into Castle Heterodyne to rescue Gil. It actually was a rather touching story that wasn't nearly as silly as some of the other tweets.

[Added: Oops. I edited in the bottom part after geoduck already wrote his reply below. The result is two different summaries of the same story.]

[geoduck]

Yeah, OK, I admit this is Othar we're talking about, so how much of what he describes actually happened is open to debate. Still, if he did see the Europa that he describes, it will be interesting to learn if that was what the Other wanted to happen.

One spoiler bit for anyone who hasn't read it:

Spoiler: Othar's Twitter

Show

Other meets a Geister in "modern day" Paris and they fall in love. They end up going off to live together on a small North Sea island for several decades. (She claims she is under no obligation to rejoin her sisters.) After she dies peacefully, he returns to the mainland to find Europa deserted and wrecked, with enormous but abandoned Slaver-Wasp structures dotting the landscape. From the scattered news reports he's able to scrounge up, Gil died in Castle Heterodyne, "Agatha" married Klaus, and Paris was the site of a desperate last stand by surviving Wulfenbach forces and the Master against the Other. He wanders around and finally meets an aged Tarvek living in a ruined possibly radioactive city, who somehow sends Othar's mind back in time to occupy his own younger body. The story then seems to sync up with the main narrative, with Othar being captured by Grantz and taken before the Baron in Mechanicsburg, possibly creating a new timeline.

[keybounce]

Alright, we started this thread about the same time that the Erfworld people did, and we update three times a week instead of 2. Yet they are pulling ahead of us. Post more people, post more.

Now, with that said: There is something missing from this 20 gambit pileup. We've seen what Europe is doing. We've got a representative from the USA, and have had references to the leader over there.

But what about Spain? What happens if they decide to send in some armed investigators to demand the truth about what is happening?

[keybounce]

How do I read Othar's Twitter in order, from the earliest to the current? Attempting to go there gives me, after scrolling past a few and an ad, to Feb 2014, and then a day by day into the past. (Interestingly, in feb 2014, he seems to be retiring).

I don't want to read it in reverse; how do I read it forward?

[Landis963]

Alright, we started this thread about the same time that the Erfworld people did, and we update three times a week instead of 2. Yet they are pulling ahead of us. Post more people, post more.

At least 50% of that thread is complaining about the pace. I don't believe we need to get any of that on us.

Now, with that said: There is something missing from this 20 gambit pileup. We've seen what Europe is doing. We've got a representative from the USA, and have had references to the leader over there.

But what about Spain? What happens if they decide to send in some armed investigators to demand the truth about what is happening?

...Isn't Spain part of Europa? And which one's the American representative?

[eschmenk]

We've got a representative from the USA, and have had references to the leader over there.

Who's the representative from the USA? The circus had an Italian woman who pretended to be the Thundering Engine Woman, but she was never to the New World. The original Thundering Engine Woman was from the New World, but didn't appear in the comic. One of the many groups Tiktoffen was apparently working for was a group called the "Sons of Franklin;" they might have been American, but we didn't see them, either. Other than that, who would be from the USA? Or are you talking about a costume?

How do I read Othar's Twitter in order, from the earliest to the current? Attempting to go there gives me, after scrolling past a few and an ad, to Feb 2014, and then a day by day into the past. (Interestingly, in feb 2014, he seems to be retiring).

I don't want to read it in reverse; how do I read it forward?

Unfortunately, I don't know of any great way to do it. You can start here where the oldest ones are, but you eventually get to the point where you need to switch to the Twitter page. At that point, all you can do is scroll down until you find where you left off and start reading from the bottom up as far as I know. And I'm pretty sure that a few of the tweets are missing in some places.

And yes, the tweets kind of died out and stopped for a few years, then resumed in 2014 (with Othar blaming his recording device), then stopped again after a couple of months.

[tonberrian]

New page is up.

And it looks like someone else needs to invest in a pair of back-up emergency pants.

[gooddragon1]

In other news, shocking developments at the masquerade. Europa pants shortage continues. Movie at 10.

[stsasser]

Heterodyne NoPants and StormKing SansCulotte will be all the rage in Paris by dawn.

[Rodin]

New page is up.

And it looks like someone else needs to invest in a pair of back-up emergency pants.

Reminds me of Sluggy Freelance.

"Torg, why is there a pair of pants on the floor?

"They're my emergency pants."

...

...

"Torg, why do you have emergency pants?"

"Don't know, but in every hypothetical I come up with, I'm glad I have them!"

[lord_khaine]

Speaking of loosing human feeling, not only do I think you would be following Lucrezia if you were Beusoleil, I don't think you would even be human anymore. In the latest update, the MoP called him a "mechanical ghost." I could easily imagine that Beusoleil was once human, but preserved himself as an AI with a bunch of mechanical bodies to control. (Recall that the shopkeeper was a similar, but inferior, AI created to preserve the original person in that case, too.) Beusoleil said that he was inside the Paris systems. I think he meant that literally, so he's a bit like an Agent Smith inside the Matrix now, except the bodies he controls are outside the systems. (I have no idea how he manages to control them remotely; that may be a weakness that could be exploited.) That makes me wonder how much Beusoleil would care anymore about the well-being of flesh and blood humans. Even if not, I could see Lucrezia convincing Beusoleil that everyone would be better off with her in charge. I think she really believes that (or can't imagine otherwise) and I could imagine Beusoleil wanting to believe it.

Good point, in the comic you linked Beusoleil did put pressure on the "and back again" part. He might very well be the ghost of a dead man in a series of clank bodies. And not have a main body at all.
If thats the case i can almost sympathise a little with him being shortsighted enough to work for the other. I can certainly imagine it being extremely frustrating if the only man who might know the secrets you needed, did not seem inclined to ever sharing them.

[eee]

Old joke about Scottish kilts, adapted to circumstances: What's worn under the tunic? There is nothing WORN under the tunic, everything is in perfect working order!

The need for pants, as noted, is spreading.

We're going through Geister spiders at a rapid rate, here. And we've got another comparison of fighting skills: Zeetha, not quite at Geister level; Martellus, above. The question is, what's going on that enabled us to get that comparison? Zola has obviously ordered the Geisters to attack the party co-incident with her arrival. Is this a distraction to Martellus and the others who might have opposed her, or is she up to something else?

[lord_khaine]

We're going through Geister spiders at a rapid rate, here. And we've got another comparison of fighting skills: Zeetha, not quite at Geister level; Martellus, above. The question is, what's going on that enabled us to get that comparison? Zola has obviously ordered the Geisters to attack the party co-incident with her arrival. Is this a distraction to Martellus and the others who might have opposed her, or is she up to something else?

Ah well.. could just as easily say we are getting conflicting repports on human fighting skill. Human A, defeated by Geister Lucy, but Human B then defeats Geister Susan. What the heck is going on, do they actually differ in fighting skill despite being almost impossible to tell apart besides from the hair color?!

[anon62453]

But what about Spain? What happens if they decide to send in some armed investigators to demand the truth about what is happening?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

[Kantaki]

Martellus asked for his pants.

I wonder if they will be brown...

[keybounce]

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

THANK YOU. I would not have believed it if no one got that. And isn't Woosley the spy from America?

===

Happy Birthday Kaja! May you recover and feel better soon.

[HandofShadows]

THANK YOU. I would not have believed it if no one got that. And isn't Woosley the spy from America?

Nope England.

[petersohn]

The need for pants, as noted, is spreading.

We're going through Geister spiders at a rapid rate, here.

So, how about some geister spider leather pants?

[eschmenk]

Ah well.. could just as easily say we are getting conflicting repports on human fighting skill. Human A, defeated by Geister Lucy, but Human B then defeats Geister Susan. What the heck is going on, do they actually differ in fighting skill despite being almost impossible to tell apart besides from the hair color?!

True, but I think it's more than that. I suspect that, although it's only part of the plan and although Martellus wasn't asked in advance, Zola is trying to make Martellus look good, so the Geisters are letting him win.

I think part of what's going on is an attempt to set up a situation similar to Zola's original Storm King plot, but instead of Zola pretending to be The Heterodyne and marrying Tarvek as the Storm King after Tarvek rescued her from a fake giant war clank attack, it would be Zola/Lucrezia as the Queen of the Dawn marrying Martellus after he saved her during a Geister attack in Paris. That would tend to win over even those people who haven't been wasped yet and would it seem believable that mobs of people (really revenants) would slavishly do what she wants. Clank Lucrezia is probably involved somehow behind the scenes because, unless things changed, she would need to be the one to give any orders to the revenants, like don't hit Martellus too hard.

Of course, it's not that simple. Zola is probably still in control of her copy of Lucrezia, so she would eventually do something different, but I think she's probably still pretending to be controlled. And I think people are probably being wasped whenever it's possible to do so without drawing attention to it happening. But for now, they are trying to keep most people from drawing any connections between the Queen of the Dawn and The Other / Lucrezia. Granted, some people will figure it out (Gil already has) but some people won't.

[keybounce]

Nope England.

Ohh, that's right.

...

Have we seen anyone from the Americas?
What if Skifander is in the Americas?
What if the H.B. went there?

[eee]

Ohh, that's right.

...

Have we seen anyone from the Americas?

Not that we know of.

What if Skifander is in the Americas?
What if the H.B. went there?

This would make more sense than Skifander being on Mars. And would explain why Lucrezia was dumbfounded to hear Klaus had returned.

But there are difficulties. First, the scientists who reached Skifander seemed to be in a fairly conventional airship; but if it were possible for airships to reach the Americas, travel between them and Europa would be much more common.

Also, Zeetha is a lost princess because she doesn't know where Skifander is. But if Skifander were in the Americas she'd know where, just not how to get there. The scientists surely would have explained about the Atlantic, and other continents, to the Queen and her court.

And the Geisters know about Skifander. Unless our pale skinned spider riders are also from the New World, that reduces the odds of it being in the Americas.

[geoduck]

Ohh, that's right.

...

Have we seen anyone from the Americas?
What if Skifander is in the Americas?
What if the H.B. went there?

I think it's already been mentioned, but to date the only American we've heard about is/was Thundering Engine Woman, who had some adventures with the Heterodyne brothers before returning home.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think part of what's going on is an attempt to set up a situation similar to Zola's original Storm King plot, but instead of Zola pretending to be The Heterodyne and marrying Tarvek as the Storm King after Tarvek rescued her from a fake giant war clank attack, it would be Zola/Lucrezia as the Queen of the Dawn marrying Martellus after he saved her during a Geister attack in Paris.

Actually, the original plan was for the "Heterodyne Heiress" to marry Martellus as the Storm King. Tarvek's plan was something different---what, we still don't know, unless that was revealed in one of the books I didn't read.

[eschmenk]

Actually, the original plan was for the "Heterodyne Heiress" to marry Martellus as the Storm King.

That's wrong. Tarvek was the first choice to play the Storm King. When Tarvek was captured by Klaus, Tarvek was poisoned and Martellus was picked to replace him, but originally it was supposed to be Tarvek + Zola. You can see that Zola was still planning on using Tarvek at that point, even though the plan was already falling apart. By the time Martellus showed up in Mechanicsburg and revealed that he had been picked to replace Tarvek as Storm King, Agatha had been recognized as the Heterodyne by the castle and Zola was in the hospital, so there wasn't any possibility that Zola could establish herself as the Heterodyne anymore.

Tarvek's plan was something different---what, we still don't know, unless that was revealed in one of the books I didn't read.

I said "Zola's plan" not "Tarvek's plan." Yes, Tarvek's plan was something different, but it wasn't what I was talking about. Tarvek's plan involved Tarvek double-crossing the original Tarvek as Storm King + fake Heterodyne plan. Although we don't know the details and don't know how many permutations it had (it seemed to have several), eventually it seemed to include Tarvek as Storm King plus Agatha as the Heterodyne.

[Spamotron]

Old joke about Scottish kilts, adapted to circumstances: What's worn under the tunic? There is nothing WORN under the tunic, everything is in perfect working order!

The need for pants, as noted, is spreading.

We're going through Geister spiders at a rapid rate, here. And we've got another comparison of fighting skills: Zeetha, not quite at Geister level; Martellus, above. The question is, what's going on that enabled us to get that comparison? Zola has obviously ordered the Geisters to attack the party co-incident with her arrival. Is this a distraction to Martellus and the others who might have opposed her, or is she up to something else?

Or Martellus is more augmented than Zeetha is. Remember that combat inclined Sparks modifying themselves is well established.