Tier system for 3.5 and my take on each base class.

[CaPtMalHammer]

So I have been reading a lot here about the different tiers and what people are arguing etc. I myself agree and disagree with several assumptions and placements. I figure its time I do my own break down of tiers and base classes and why I put each where. You don't have to agree or even like what I put here but if you want to read on and see and maybe comment great. I ask we keep this a civil discussion. This is in no way an affront to any class or anybody personally. This is strictly my take on things.

Ok so in most cases there have been 5 tiers. I will keep that and try to define what I see from each class. I will have multiple tier ratings for each class. A rating for the base class itself and a rating for how the class is used in PRC/optimization builds. I am not going to list tier 1, tier 2 etc but rather the class, what I think about it and what tier I think it belongs in.


There are 5 factors I am taking into account with each class. Its class abilities (Feat, Spell, Etc), its stats (HP, Saves, BAB), Its skill points, Its ability to handle multiple roles in a party, how well it can be used in a PRC build.

After some feedback I'm going to attempt to update my Tier definitions to make them easier to explain etc. I may fail in the reattempt but hopefully this helps.

The classes should include the following in some form or another. Not every Tier 1 will have all the things etc but should have a majority of them. Etc for Tier 2-5.


Tier 1: Superior Class feature, Good BAB, Saves, ETC. Spellcasting and Skill ability above other classes. Strong class skills, Versatile in the party role then can undertake.

Tier 2: Good Class Features, OK or better BAB, Save, ETC. Good Skill Lists and Ok Spellcasting ability. Versatile to take on more then one role in the party and better then average class abilities.

Tier 3: Average Class Features, Ok BAB, Saves, ETC. Decent Spell Casting and skill list, Able to handle a single role really well but with the possible of branching into others not as well.

Tier 4: Average or Less Class Features, Ok or worse BAB, Saves, ETC. Spell Casting is poor or non existent, Skill lists are Average or worse. Able to handle a sinlge role in the party but not versatile enough to branch out.

Tier 5: Poor Class Feature, Ok or Worse BAB, Saves, ETC. Spell Casting doesn't exist or is very poor. Bad Skill List or at least a list that is focused on 1 thing. These classes can be fun still but are focused on a specific goal or have abilities that are setting specific etc. Not versatile.

Player's Handbook:

Barbarian: The Barbarian class from 1 to 20 overall is very strong. Great HP, Strong abilities that boost combat like Rage and DR to help with damage he will be taking from a low AC. Out of combat abilities like Trap Sense to help if traps are sprung and Fast Movement to help I certain, albeit specific, skill challenges. They have Full BAB. The Barbarian has strong Fort save but lacks in Reflex and Will saves. The Barbarian does have Class abilities while raging though that do help a little with the lack of a Will save base. Wearing light armor which allows for high Dex builds. AC is a weakness but is expected with Rage. Skill points are few and far between. Illiteracy is an odd thing, some games can really hinder and others not so much depending on the situation. Overall is a solid Tier 3 combat class. This class for PRC's however is where it really shines. A dip or two with some ACF and this becomes paramount in most "Dervish" or classes that move around the battlefield a lot (Charging, ETC) builds and so many more. A single level dip of this class is used for Lion Totem and Pounce in lots of optimized builds. With PRC's and ACF this class stays a solid Tier 3.

Cleric: 1-20 This class is top 2 in the base handbook. It is the most versatile without trying. Cleric class abilities are strong spell casting with full casting ability and knowledge of the entire spell list is huge. Prep spells is annoying at times but you can change for anything within a day. Strong Will and Fort saves. Poor Reflex saves. Ok BAB that can allow either for caster builds or melee builds. Skill points that are not as good as some but not as bad as others so middle ground. The ability to wear heavy armor allows versatility in stats and how you build it. The spells allow the cleric to be the face, the melee tank, the healer or the buffer. This is a clear Tier 1 class out of the box. PRCS and ACF's only strengthen this class with possible Theurge builds or PRC's that cover the gambit of party roles. This is Tier 1 class all around.

Fighter: This is a strong combat class but does lack some depth. The Full BAB and lots of feats make the combat possibilities great with this class. They can be the archer, the tank, the dual wielding flanker, the trip battle field control artist. Strong Fort save is nice and great HP with a d10. Poor Reflex and Will saves and lack of Skill points make this class hard to get out of it wheel house. The ability to wear any armor and any shield again aids in the variety of combat builds. This is a combat pony that does really well 1-20. Strong tier 3 class at base. PRCS and ACF. Well to be honest this class is used as a dip mostly to get needed feats for other builds. In itself there are other classes that do much better in this realm. This class falls to a Tier 4 when you take these into account.

Monk: Interesting Class. 1-20 not the strongest and kind of a muddled mess. Front loaded class with lots of feats and abilities. Increased movement, AC buffs and Good Saving throws make it a class that when build right can be hard to hit in combat. The Flurry of Blows is good in concept but bad in execution. The ability to not wield many weapons and to not wear any armor limits this class to a high Dex and Wis build. Making it the most Stat heavy class in the base book. Overall its a mash of ok ideas that never pan out. Tier 4 at its base. When you add in the ability to PRC and ACF this class shines a little brighter. its early front loaded nature makes it great to dip into for feats etc needed for other class abilities. Any Grapple or unarmed build can benefit a lot from a quick dip into the Monk. The monk also has the ability to be a GISH or hybrid caster class. Sacred Fist etc are some of the strongest PRC builds. The versatility of the front end of this class makes it climb to Tier 3 when you take this into account.

There are the first 4 I will continue the player's handbook as soon as I can. :)

[CaPtMalHammer]

Player's Handbook Con't:

Rogue: A class with a good flavor but I think its mechanics get in its way. Sneak attack and evasion make it a good off melee flanker. Its trapfinding and skills makes it great at dungeon runs things. Its skills are one of the few real saving graces here. lots of skill points allows some versatility in the role it takes. 1-20 though it has a not great BAB, Good Reflex but poor Will and Fort saves. Light armor makes it Dex dependent. Not as Stat driven as the monk but still not great. Overall this class seems to get in its own way a lot and is Tier 4. With PRC and ACF however dipping into this class is great. So many options. Unseen seer, Dervish and many others. The ability to add damage to any build and skill points to help those classes that are inept at skills makes this well worth a few levels. Its ACF which allow the damage to be useful against Undead etc helps as well. The versatility the skills and damage buffing add to other builds make it Tier 2 easy when you add in the PRC and ACF.

Ranger: This class was tough for me to place overall. Great BAB and Average HP with a D8, Animal companion that's not as good as the Druids but can add strong utility to a build. Class features that aid in Roleplaying and combat: favored enemy adds damage potential etc but also breeds a dislike or a study against certain races which can fuel story line. Casting ability is limited but some ok spells in later levels on their list. Survival and tracking ability to help with wilderness skill challenges. Overall a strong class. Can be both the Scout or Main Fighter of a party. If built to it can be the face as well. Ranger is a versatile class. Top Ref and Fort saves are a good bonus. Poor Will save. Evasion and Camoflauge to help as well. This is a solid Tier 2 class. PRC's and ACF's well this makes a big difference. makes this class shine as a shapeshifter or as a Dervish or as a scout on steroids. You can give up its weaknesses to add great utility in and out of combat. ACF's to be useful in other non-wilderness areas and a list of feats for cross classing like Swift Hunter makes for very strong builds. The features early on can help gain access to some good PRC's. This class remains a solid Tier 2 with all additions.

Druid: This was one of the easiest. Like Cleric from 1-20 this is amazing and hard to mess up. Ok BAB and Good Class skills. Wild shape and casting are amazing. the Animal Companion alone makes 1-20 worth it. This class can be a melee tank. a ranged archer, a party summoner. a thief to get through locked doors. The versatility of the class abilities are great. Good HP as well to make them not so squishy. Full casting and good skill progression there is nothing wrong with this class. Tier 1 all the way. PRCS and ACF this class becomes even better. This is by far the most versatile class and can be used in every type of build. There is no role this class can not do. Tier 1 all the way.

Will come back later with the final 4 from the Player's. :)

[CaPtMalHammer]

Ok here are the final 3 from Player's handbook:

Bard: Versatile class. Bardic knowledge is a useful DM tool to help progress story lines when things get stale or stuck. Good casting list and progression is slower then a wizard but good. Heal abilities from Arcane caster always nice to add versatility. Overall the HP is mid grade at best, Saves are not that impressive. Class abilities allow versatility in combat and out from knowledge skills to mind altering skills to party buffs. Bard from 1-20 is a great support build and sits strongly I feel at Tier 3. PRC and ACF actually help the bard to shine several builds with druid or cleric to theurge etc. Lyrist build is strong. ACF's to help mold the build taking away certain abilities and honing in on others. I don't think there is enough to make Bard Tier 2 but is is a solid Tier 3 build all around.

Sorcerer: 1-20 this class is above average. Less spells then those who get the full list but with the correct choices can be very powerful. The party jester (Cantrip caster or magician for parties), the party blaster, can be an ok off tank or even part rogue all with the right spell selection. Is hard for this class to be the face of a party although the CHR based casting does help. Poor HP and BAB hurt the class. Casting without preparation is a huge boon. This class with the right spells known chosen can take on multiple roles. The skill list is non existent here and the skills per level for a caster are very sub par. Familiar if you focus on it can be a great asset or is a large liability if handled wrong. Tier 3 Solidly. PRC's and ACF's help a lot. the ability to get metamagic aids what it can do making it better. The PRC and ACF help fix the classes shortcomings. It adds loads of options from Theurge builds to GISH builds to straight up blast you in the face builds. A solid Tier 2 class.

Wizard: Finally the wizard. From 1-20 this is one of the weaker base classes out there. Limits spells in the spell book without roleplaying and putting in spells during gameplay. Yes I know that assuming a Wizard wont at some point scribe spells is a little strange but i am trying to take the classes at their base. Wizard does get a good Will Save which is nice and INT based casting which helps bolster its no so great skill list. Straight out of the book this class suffers with only a few spells at each level. Awful BAB, and awful HP. This class if unlucky and without spells being prepped in its HP alone could be one shot by an archer. The ability to specialize is nice but this class is overshadowed by almost any other casting class. Its spell list however is very good and helps the versatility of the class. If can change focus in a day to help something else. This class at its base is a good high Tier 4 or low Tier 3. I would place it in Tier 3 overall however. Now this class is also a two sided coin. When you add in PRC and ACF this class skyrockets. This class can be anything and has the ability to do it. Unlimited spell potential. GISH builds, Theurge builds. Best controller in the game when it comes to combat. what it lacks in its base form when you add in the ability to find a scroll and scribe it into the book and the multitude of options when you open up ACF etc. This class becomes Tier 1 without a doubt.

Paladin: Solid Class all around, High BAB, Strong Fort Save. Class features are very strong. Ability to heal, handle undead, A strong mount built in. Spell casting in later levels, Not strong but the ability to had versatility to the class. Strong HP with a d10. Skill list is ok but skills gained is weak and Int isn't a needed Attribute for a lot of Paladins. This class is good in melee. has options outside of melee. The code of conduct can add strong roleplaying avenues for players. Overall this is a strong top Tier 3 class out of the book. Add in PRC's and ACF's and this class only gets better. The ability to hybrid with classes like Ranger or Bard make a strong case in itself. Paladins make great mounted combat with their mount and Cavalier can be a strong damage output class in the right situation. Overall a very strong class and becomes solid in a Tier 2 role.

hope this helps some etc. I will do Complete Warrior next and work my way through the base classes as I find the time:)

[JNAProductions]

Barbarian... Tier 1...

Examples of massively versatile Barbarians, please? Because, under your system, I'd rank Barbarian a solid T3. Great in combat-and not much else.

[CaPtMalHammer]

was actually in the midst of changing that lol:0 tier 3/tier 2 not tier 1.

[JNAProductions]

I still would like an example of a T2 Barbarian (under your definition, of course-not the JaronK T2).

[flappeercraft]

Just a quick mistake I found. Cleric does not have poor Fort. You should change that just to be a bit more accurate.

[SilverLeaf167]

Okay, before anything else, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just try to understand how your ranking system works, without unnecessary comparisons to the "usual" tier system. Some examples:

Barbarian: The Barbarian class from 1 to 20 overall is very strong. Great HP, Strong abilities that boost combat, out of combat abilities with Trap Finding, and Full BAB. The Barbarian has strong Fort save but lacks in Reflex and Will saves, Wearing light armor which allows for high dex builds. AC is a weak but is expected with Rage. Skill points are few and far between. Illiteracy is an odd thing, some games can really hinder and others not so much depending on the situation. Overall is a solid Tier 2 combat class. This class for PRC's however is where it really shines. A dip or two with some ACF and this becomes paramount in GISH builds, Dervish Builds and so many more. With PRC's and ACF this class becomes a solid Tier 1.

-snip-

Fighter: This is a strong combat class but does lack some depth. The Full BAB and lots of feats make the combat possibilities great with this class. They can be the archer, the tank, the dual wielding flanker, the trip battle field control artist. Strong Fort save is nice and great HP with a d10. Poor Reflex and Will saves and lack of Skill points make this class hard to get out of it wheel house. The ability to wear any armor and any shield again aids in the variety of combat builds. This is a combat pony that does really well 1-20. Strong tier 3 class at base. PRCS and ACF. Well to be honest this class is used as a dip mostly to get needed feats for other builds. In itself there are other classes that do much better in this realm. This class falls to a Tier 4 when you take these into account.

Can you explain the huge difference between the Barbarian's ranking at Tier 1 (!) and the Fighter's at Tier 4? The Barbarian's only real advantage in "versatility" (as in, doing things other than full-attacking) comes from class skills, which they really don't have that many of, as you mention (also, they only have Trap Sense, not Trapfinding). Arguably, the Fighter's bonus feats even give them the advantage in combat versatility, allowing them to use some more unusual builds and tactics, whereas the Barbarian can't do much more than "Rage and charge in". I have no idea how the Fighter's tier is reduced by the addition of PRCs and ACFs, but in any case, their feats once again make prerequisites easier to fulfill. Besides, counting gish builds as a point in the Barbarian's favor is pretty strange, because

1. They're just as easy for the Fighter to use, if not easier
2. Apart from Rage Mages, Barbarians literally can't cast while Raging
3. Gishing basically just gives you some of a Sorcerer/Wizard's power, which you've rated very low on your list.

EDIT: Tier 2/3 is slightly better for the Barbarian, but you still have things to explain.

Rogue: A class with a good flavor but I think its mechanics get in its way. Sneak attack and evasion make it a good off melee flanker. Its trapfinding and skills makes it great at dungeon runs things. Its skills are one of the few real saving graces here. lots of skill points allows some versatility in the role it takes. 1-20 though it has a not great BAB, Good Reflex but poor Will and Fort saves. Light armor makes it Dex dependent. Not as Stat driven as the monk but still not great. Overall this class seems to get in its own way a lot and is Tier 4. With PRC and ACF however dipping into this class is great. So many options. Unseen seer, Dervish and many others. The ability to add damage to any build and skill points to help those classes that are inept at skills makes this well worth a few levels. Its ACF which allow the damage to be useful against Undead etc helps as well. The versatility the skills and damage buffing add to other builds make it Tier 2 easy when you add in the PRC and ACF.

Again, you're quoting gish builds (Unseen Seer) as a point in the Rogue's favor, even though the point of those is to make a Sorc/Wiz hybrid. Also, how is a combat-competent class with the most skills in the game less "versatile" than a vanilla Barbarian?

Bard: Versatile class. Bardic knowledge is a useful DM tool to help progress story lines when things get stale or stuck. Good casting list and progression is slower then a wizard but good. Heal abilities from Arcane caster always nice to add versatility. Overall the HP is mid grade at best, Saves are not that impressive. Class abilities allow versatility in combat and out from knowledge skills to mind altering skills to party buffs. Bard from 1-20 is a great support build and sits strongly I feel at Tier 3. PRC and ACF actually help the bard to shine several builds with druid or cleric to theurge etc. Lyrist build is strong. ACF's to help mold the build taking away certain abilities and honing in on others. I don't think there is enough to make Bard Tier 2 but is is a solid Tier 3 build all around.

With the right buffs, a Bard can easily compete in combat, while also having all those skills, spells and class features. You seem to like gishes a lot, how is the PHB's closest equivalent to an arcane gish rated so low?

Sorcerer: 1-20 this class is versatile thanks only to its spell casting. Less spells then those who get the full list but with the correct choices can be very useful. Can be the party face, the party jester, the party blaster all with the right spell selection. Poor HP and BAB hurt the class a lot but for a casting class has a handful of options and casting without preparation is a huge boon here. Tier 3 from 1-20. PRC's and ACF's help a lot. the ability to get metamagic aids what it can do making it better at its natural self but also opens up GISH builds and even a decent summoning build. Ok not nearly as good as the Druid but solid. The PRC and ACF help fix the classes shortcomings and make it a solid Tier 2 class.

Wizard: Finally the wizard. From 1-20 this is one of the worse base classes out there. Limits spells in the spell book without roleplaying and putting in spells during gameplay. Straight out of the book this class suffers with only 2 spells at each level yikes. no versatility at all. Awful BAB, Awful HP, no class skills really. the ability to specialize is nice but this class is overshadowed by almost everything. Tier 5. Now this class is also a two sided coin. When you add in PRC and ACF this class skyrockets. This class can be anything and has the ability to do it. Unlimited spell potential. GISH builds, Theurge builds. Best controller in the game when it comes to combat. what it lacks in its base form when you add in the ability to find a scroll and scribe it into the book and the multitude of options when you open up ACF etc. This class becomes Tier 1 without a doubt.

My issues start right with the first sentence: yes, Sorcerers (and most casters) are only versatile thanks to their spellcasting. However, spellcasting is literally the most versatile thing in the entire game, by far, even in core. Even with a Sorcerer's limited spell selection, there's still more options and possibilities than any non-caster class will ever have. No idea how the Wizard ended up at Tier 5, since they have more freedom of choice with spells and are pretty much identical to Sorcerers in most non-casting aspects. You mention PRCs and ACFs taking them to Tier 1, but even a Wizard 20 with nothing but core spells is way more versatile than any other similar build.

I feel like you really need to explain what you mean by "versatility", because that's probably going to become the main shouting match of this thread.

Also, since gish options are raising the non-casters' tiers, why not the casters'?

[JNAProductions]

HOLY CRAP! I missed you rating Wizards at T5! T5! What the flippity dip?

[AvatarVecna]

Also, since gish options are raising the non-casters' tiers, why not the casters'?

I can answer that one. It goes something like "Adding casting to a monk makes the monk awesomer, adding monking to the caster makes the caster lamer".

[SilverLeaf167]

I can answer that one. It goes something like "Adding casting to a monk makes the monk awesomer, adding monking to the caster makes the caster lamer".

Yes, but that logic only works in a world where Wizards aren't Tier 5.

EDIT: Also, multiclassing to a better class really shouldn't raise the worse class's tier.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Complete Warrior:

Samurai: 1-20 this is kind of a cross between the two weapon ranger and a fighter with the arrogance of a paladin. I will go through and rate this class based on its rank among all classes but first: In eastern themed games this class might break tier 2. In a setting where only eastern classes are used this class can shine. As is written in the book and now with taking everything into account: The Class gets Full BAB and D10 HP great for any melee builds, Strong feats for free throughout making it a solid two weapon fighting class. Their code of honor makes them interesting to roleplay in certain games. No so great Saves and poor skill points make them a bit weak in the versatility department. good melee class in combat not even a real argument for ranged version so I make this a Tier 4 class. PRC and ACF and this class does not change much at all., Exotic weapon master maybe? some similar ones fighters can take. Outside it setting this class really suffers. and stays in the Tier 4 range.

Hexblade: Casting and combat abilities, This was an early attempt at merging the two, 1-20 the class is decent. Full BAB, Good HP, casting although limited can help it versatility. Chr based so could pull of a face but the lack of skill points hurts, the curse with the right stat and push behind it can really help in combat against many brutes etc and good resitances against magic. This is a solid Tier 2 class I feel. PRCS and ACF. this class can blossom into several areas adding in a companion cat that lowers the ac of enemies. good secondary nature. can go into both melee and magic prestige classes. This class stays at Tier 2 for me but just barely almost drops to Tier 3.

Swashbuckler: The best of the classes in this book. 1-20 is a solid build with Good HP, Full BAB and some defensive abilities. Weapon finesse almost one notes this build but can be overcome. Can be two weapon fighter, ranged archer or crit finding rapier wielder,. Good roleplaying flavor helps this a bit two if your on the high seas a lot in a game. Tier 3 class base 1-20. Add in PRCS and ACF and in this case cross classing with other classes like rogue etc and this class gets new life. The ability to stack levels with other classes help the versatility of this class a lot aka Daring Outlaw etc. This class becomes a low Tier 2 just getting there when you add in the outside options.

Thank You,

[CaPtMalHammer]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

[JNAProductions]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

What do you mean "Straight out of the book"? That includes Polymorph. And Wish.

[TheIronGolem]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

Assuming a Wizard who never scribes spells is like assuming a Fighter who never picks up a weapon.

EDIT: And even then, as noted they still get access to game-changing spells.

[SilverLeaf167]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

No, a Wizard with 4 spells known per spell level (approximately the same amount as the Sorcerer, varying a bit with character level) is still extremely powerful and versatile. Most of their ACFs aren't that good and while there are some amazing PRCs, all of them pale in comparison to the sheer value of their full casting. Besides, why are you assuming that they won't scribe more spells? That doesn't require PRCs or ACFs.

Roleplaying and fluff adding "versatility" to a class is just an oddity I'm going to accept for now.

[eggynack]

Ignoring the individual assessments, I don't really get the metrics you're using. In particular, who cares what skills or stats a class happens to have? It's relevant to what a class can do, certainly, but I feel like a way better metric for what a class can do is, y'know, what a class can do. A class can have completely terrible skills or saves and still be capable of amazing things, and a class can have great skills or saves and still be pretty limited. Because, when all is said and done, skills and saves tend to be relatively low order elements of power in this game. Which brings things to the most important question. Are these elements being considered equally? If one class has amazing skills and stats but nothing else, while another has great class features and nothing else, does the former class rank higher? Even though the former could be a monk/expert gestalt while the latter could be a wizard with a poor will save, which you've ranked inexplicably low? It's also not precisely defined what it means to be good in a PrC build. It's an ostensibly valid metric, but it feels like it could mean several completely different things.

[flappeercraft]

You lost me when you said Wizard is a tier 5..... Tell me something other core classes can do that it can't. I will assume no PrCs and ACFs on the wizard, just straight wizard 20 and I bet it could easily do anything others can.

[TheIronGolem]

Roleplaying and fluff adding "versatility" to a class is just an oddity I'm going to accept for now.

I don't get that either. Why is a Samurai more "versatile" in an Eastern-flavored setting, for example? What can he do there that he can't in Eberron or Forgotten Realms?

[AvatarVecna]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

Regular Core-only Grey Elf Wizard, starting Int 20.

Wizard Lvl	Lvl 1 Spells	Lvl 2 Spells	Lvl 3 Spells	Lvl 4 Spells	Lvl 5 Spells	Lvl 6 Spell	Lvl 7 Spells	Lvl 8 Spells	Lvl 9 Spells
1	Protection From Evil Grease Identify Charm Person Burning Hands Silent Image Feather Fall
2	Mage Armor Enlarge Person
3		Glitterdust Web
4		Detect Thoughts Spider Climb
5			Fly Haste
6			Stinking Cloud Waterbreathing
7				Evard's Black Tentacles Polymorph
8				Scrying Ice Storm
9					Teleport Dominate Person
10					Wall Of Force Telekinesis
11						Acid Fog True Seeing
12						Chain Lightning Contingency
13							Plane Shift Forcecage
14							Control Weather Reverse Gravity
15								Mind Blank Polar Ray
16								Discern Location Polymorph Any Object
17									Gate Dominate Monster
18									Astral Projection Time Stop
19									Energy Drain Shapechange
20									Mass Hold Monster Wish

With no feats, no ACFs, no PrCs, and only Core spells, a straight wizard (at every level past about 5) has a power and versatility the Barbarian can only dream of.

[Jormengand]

Regular Core-only Grey Elf Wizard, starting Int 20.[/SIZE]

With no feats, no ACFs, no PrCs, and only Core spells, a straight wizard (at every level past about 5) has a power and versatility the Barbarian can only dream of.

You forgot Tenser's Transformation, not because it's a good spell but because it's an awful spell which still makes you better at fighting than most martial classes.

[Esprit15]

Can't tell if trolling, or really missing the point. Given that almost the entire tier system is turned on its head, I'm inclined to say the former.

[Troacctid]

Yeah I can't take this seriously at all. Wizards have little potential for growth? Barbarians are strong from 1–20? Pssh. *waves hand dismissively.*

[AvatarVecna]

You forgot Tenser's Transformation, not because it's a good spell but because it's an awful spell which still makes you better at fighting than most martial classes.

Also, while I didn't mention it at the time, the only summoning spell I took for that wizard was Gate, which is super-late in the game. Summoning spells make this character even more bonkers powerful/versatile, particularly planar binding.

Also, while I'm on the subject of that particular wizard "build", if you wanna make it even more versatile with the absolute minimum effort, take the Elven Generalist ACF and the feat Collegiate Wizard, and gain an additional four spells to your spellbook at every wizard level.

[AnachroNinja]

I know this is a minor caveat in this big like of nonsense.... But did anyone else notice he skipped Paladins entirely? And that's despite mentioning them in the Samurai notes. But yes, this is ludicrous and ridiculous both.

[JNAProductions]

Question: How does an Eastern theme raise a class TWO TIERS?

[Jack_McSnatch]

The rogue -arguably the most versatile base class in the game- is tier 4 in a list based on versatility?

Futhermore Wizard is tier 5, and flippin barbarian is tier 1?! Either you don't know how this game works, or you're higher than I am.

[JNAProductions]

The rogue -arguably the most versatile base class in the game- is tier 4 in a list based on versatility?

Futhermore Wizard is tier 5, and flippin barbarian is tier 1?! Either you don't know how this game works, or you're higher than I am.

T1 Barbarian was a typo. He meant T3-T2.

Which is still not really overly accurate.

[Red Fel]

you need to read the entire thing for wizard its tier 5/Tier 1, If you build straight out of the book and not add extra spell from scribing etc the class is weaker then most. One you add Roleplaying, PRC's ACF's etc the class shines and has unlimited potential and become clearly Tier 1.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that some of your explanations could really do with some explanation, you really shouldn't be relying on PRCs in placing a class. That's like saying, "This car gets great mileage if you tow it everywhere with a truck," or "This bread tastes amazing if you put some chopped beef on it." You have to assess the class on its own merits - what can the class do on its own?

Now, here, you say that Wizard is Tier 5, and becomes Tier 1 when you add other stuff in. Don't do that. Look at the Wizard, with its access to any spells on the Wizard spell list, and access to Wizard ACFs, and say, "Based on this, the Wizard is Tier ___." You do similar things with other classes; stop. Don't talk about dips or ACFs, it defeats the purpose.

It also looks to me like you're adjusting your scores based on feedback. And that's fine; I commend you for that. But once you've adjusted those scores, take a step back; aside from the Wizard's score, are you really that far off from the established (love it or hate it) Tier System? Your melee classes hover around Tier 3, your casters Tiers 1 and 2. (Again, other than Wizard.) That's already roughly where we are. If you wind up in the same place, what's the goal?

[neriractor]

HOLY CRAP! I missed you rating Wizards at T5! T5! What the flippity dip?

this, and T2 samurais* made me laugh pretty hard, and I thank the OP for it

*only in their setting mind you