LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread III: Third Time's A Charm

[Razade]

Well, I hear that not all people are male, female, MtF, FtM or intersex (which is a list which contains two-and-two-halves genders and one-and-two-halves sexes, which is slightly odd for a "Gender" field anyway).

So what? Not only is there the option that Asmodean_ has provided there's always the option to put it in your signature if you care that much about it. I fail to see how, on an anonymous gaming board, broadcasting your gender is but everyone's different.

[Troacctid]

If it's that important, just put it in your signature or location?

How would you feel if the only gender markers available were female, FtM, or MtF, and the only way to indicate that you are male would be to either pick FtM (even if you're cis) or put it in your signature or location?

[Murk]

How would you feel if the only gender markers available were female, FtM, or MtF, and the only way to indicate that you are male would be to either pick FtM or put it in your signature or location?

I wouldn't care, and Asmodean probably wouldn't care either - but that's not really important here, I think. What is important is that clearly, someone cares, and it doesn't hurt us in any way if that option gets added.

I don't think there is anything against shooting a mod a PM (or posting a thread on the forum issue board) if it is that important to someone.

[Razade]

How would you feel if the only gender markers available were female, FtM, or MtF, and the only way to indicate that you are male would be to either pick FtM (even if you're cis) or put it in your signature or location?

I know you asked Asmodean_ but since I'm arguing from the same position.

I'd feel exactly the same as I feel currently. My gender and sexual orientation isn't anyone's business but mine and my partner. I don't feel the need to broadcast it and wouldn't feel the need to broadcast it if the option wasn't available for me to do so. Other people don't feel that way, I accept that, but my answer won't change regardless of my personal situation. I hope that'd be anyone's response.

[noparlpf]

I mean, I'm cis so this particular case doesn't apply, but I know I'm annoyed* when I'm filling something out and it only has options for "straight," "gay," "bi," "lesbian." No "other" or anything. Sure, you can leave it blank, but then it's a matter of constantly feeling disrespected and invalidated because nobody ever acknowledges your identity, or even that there could be other options.
The worst ones are the computerised forms with tick-boxes or drop-down lists that don't let you submit it until you've picked something. I just got a copy of my records from the counselling services at my old school and I had forgotten I had picked "lesbian" in the vain hope that somebody would notice I had picked the only option completely incompatible with "cis male" and ask about it...

*I say "annoyed" because I'm not particularly invested in people knowing things about me, but I also get a lot less **** as a largely-closeted asexual than most non-cishet people do.

[Knaight]

I know you asked Asmodean_ but since I'm arguing from the same position.

I'd feel exactly the same as I feel currently. My gender and sexual orientation isn't anyone's business but mine and my partner. I don't feel the need to broadcast it and wouldn't feel the need to broadcast it if the option wasn't available for me to do so. Other people don't feel that way, I accept that, but my answer won't change regardless of my personal situation. I hope that'd be anyone's response.

Yes, but you're one of the people who chooses not to display the gender. So am I - the options don't matter to me personally because I wouldn't use them. Yet when you look at the gender form in a thread (any thread, not just this one) a big chunk of them are filled in. Clearly some people care enough to provide an indicator. There's no reason to expect the people who care to conveniently line up with the people who have the appropriate indicator. That's why the two trans specific ones were added a few years ago; specific people wanted to have them for themselves, so they were placed. The same thing could apply to adding more.

[Razade]

Yes, but you're one of the people who chooses not to display the gender. So am I - the options don't matter to me personally because I wouldn't use them. Yet when you look at the gender form in a thread (any thread, not just this one) a big chunk of them are filled in. Clearly some people care enough to provide an indicator. There's no reason to expect the people who care to conveniently line up with the people who have the appropriate indicator. That's why the two trans specific ones were added a few years ago; specific people wanted to have them for themselves, so they were placed. The same thing could apply to adding more.

I think I freely acknowledged that? Have I said anything contrary to this?

[Jormengand]

If it's that important, just put it in your signature

I did, and as has been pointed out, that's not the point.

[Knaight]

I think I freely acknowledged that? Have I said anything contrary to this?

No, but it's worth reemphasizing.

[noparlpf]

I think I freely acknowledged that? Have I said anything contrary to this?

After other people have said they would like it you've continued to state that you don't think it's necessary, which some people might perceive as arguing that their feelings are irrelevant. You also kind of pulled out the "special snowflake" argument a couple posts back (the last line in post #61). Keep in mind that queer peoples' feelings and identities constantly being seen as irrelevant is the reason some people feel hurt that it's not an option—not just here on a gaming forum, but ever, anywhere. And since this forum does have some options for non-cis identities, it's not unreasonable for somebody who still isn't included to feel left out. If you don't care and it doesn't affect you either way, why keep telling people who do care that you don't care?

[CWater]

The curious thing about the gender marker is that it is labeled 'Gender' while all the options are sexes. And true enough if we focus only on the physical qualities, then those 5 about cover it, right?

However, that's a weird logic to use, as people are unlikely to want to answer that question based on their physical body (especially if that doesn't align with their gender) and considering this is a non-physical environment, the approach feels particularly nonsensical.

Now, this functionality was probably designed by someone who doesn't know/make the difference between 'gender' and 'sex' (not really surprising, considering a lot of people don't), but I see no reason why it couldn't be fixed, one way or the other. Changing the label to 'Sex' would probably be simpler, but I think it would make a lot more sense to change its options to actual genders, as that is how people like to use it. (Also, the former has some homonym issues.)

[noparlpf]

I mean, in the last like, 5-6 years there's been something of a cultural shift from MtF/FtM terminology to AMAB/AFAB terminology to largely not mentioning sex assigned at birth. When they were talking about adding those markers that's the terminology a lot of people were using. (I can't remember if she was involved in the decision to add them, but one of the mods from back then used the MtF marker.)

[Asmodean_]

How would you feel if the only gender markers available were female, FtM, or MtF, and the only way to indicate that you are male would be to either pick FtM (even if you're cis) or put it in your signature or location?

I honestly wouldn't care. I'd just disable the marker and move on.

[Icewraith]

How would you feel if the only gender markers available were female, FtM, or MtF, and the only way to indicate that you are male would be to either pick FtM (even if you're cis) or put it in your signature or location?

That's not really how the language or symbology works... there wouldn't be a "female" option but no "male" option. What you're talking about would be more of a "Gender Status" marker with options for "cis", "trans", "Intersex", and "it's complicated" in addition to the option to leave the marker blank, but no gender marker.

On a forum populated by Wrasses instead of Humans and the occasional spambot, your proposed options would make more sense.

The concept I think you're trying to get across - how would you feel if YOUR symbol wasn't available- doesn't work because you're treating the "male" symbol like it's the "cismale" symbol. If it were the "cismale symbol" the terminology of cis-and trans- wouldn't have developed as it did. There's no "cismale symbol" (or cisfemale symbol) that has gained enough traction for me to even recognize it, assuming I had any desire to use it. Trans men have the option to use the Trans Male symbol, helpfully informing the rest of us forum-goers they are somewhere along the path of undergoing a specific set of very significant life experiences and/or medical procedures. If they want people to use male pronouns for them without broadcasting that highly personal information, they use the Male symbol.

[Coidzor]

That's not really how the language or symbology works... there wouldn't be a "female" option but no "male" option. What you're talking about would be more of a "Gender Status" marker with options for "cis", "trans", "Intersex", and "it's complicated" in addition to the option to leave the marker blank, but no gender marker.

I mean, there could be, but it'd be a deliberate, political move on the part of someone who wanted to have an "online safe space" that bans cis men, which also would make the analogy fall apart due to being such a fundamentally different scenario, such that asking for a male marker would get you banned from the site, unlike the current scenario where messaging the admins or posting in board/site issues to petition the powers that be for a genderqueer marker or a text field would not result in a ban.

But that's getting very particular.

IIRC, the last time this subject came up, around the time of the last change, the nature of the forum's infrastructure came up in some capacity with regards to a text field for gender, but it's been long enough I couldn't exactly say whether anything conclusive was mentioned.

[Serpentine]

The mods were asked, and answered, these exact questions when it was originally introduced and several times since. I can't remember what they said and it's too hard to search for it on my phone, but a search should be able to dig up the official word.

I have a question regarding romantic orientation. When ever anyone reverences it is seemingly only paired with asexual. I was wondering weather someone could be hetero biromantic. (Recent events have lead me to believe I might be biromantic)
Just wondering. You can all get back to relavnt discussion now.

Yep, definitely a thing. If I'm inclined to go into that sort of detail, I'd say I'm something along the lines of bisexual heterodemiromantic.

[noparlpf]

I tried searching on desktop yesterday and didn't find it (though I didn't try very hard). It might not be searchable since we had a server upgrade since then, didn't we?

[137beth]

I have a question regarding romantic orientation. When ever anyone reverences it is seemingly only paired with asexual. I was wondering weather someone could be hetero biromantic. (Recent events have lead me to believe I might be biromantic)
Just wondering. You can all get back to relavnt discussion now.

Yep. I know a few people who are biromantic but either hetero or homosexual.

Wow, as a trans youth, and a new member of the forum, it really is amazing that you guys have a thread like this. I am really happy with the level of acceptance here. I am just so happy that there is a place like this. I am a HUGE fan of OOTS, and it is really great that there are other members of "the community" in this community. I have had lots of trouble with people accepting me in my life, and this thread is so cool!!! I just recently came out to my closest friends, and most people in my life don't know about/respect my gender identity. My whole life, though that doesn't seem like a very long time to some of you out there, I haven't fit into the ideas of classical gender. I have always pushed against gender stereotypes and have always felt different than everybody else. I personally used to use they/them pronouns, and for some reason, people seemed to really have a hard time with using those pronouns. I eventually gave up with trying to convince my friends to use proper pronouns, and settled with anything they wanted to call me. But seeing this thread, wow, I can't believe I'm saying this, but has given me the balls to start being true to who I am. Thank you so much, everybody on this thread. I realize I should care about how people see me and how they treat me. I am done with people disrespecting me. I am going to stand up for myself. Its crazy, but this internet forum is actually going to change my life. Wow. You guys can call me Phi, like the greek letter. They/Them pronouns please. Thank you all so much. I am going to start frequenting this forum from now on.

-Phi

Welcome to the forums, we're glad to have ya here

I mean, I'm cis so this particular case doesn't apply, but I know I'm annoyed* when I'm filling something out and it only has options for "straight," "gay," "bi," "lesbian." No "other" or anything. Sure, you can leave it blank, but then it's a matter of constantly feeling disrespected and invalidated because nobody ever acknowledges your identity, or even that there could be other options.
The worst ones are the computerised forms with tick-boxes or drop-down lists that don't let you submit it until you've picked something. I just got a copy of my records from the counselling services at my old school and I had forgotten I had picked "lesbian" in the vain hope that somebody would notice I had picked the only option completely incompatible with "cis male" and ask about it...

*I say "annoyed" because I'm not particularly invested in people knowing things about me, but I also get a lot less **** as a largely-closeted asexual than most non-cishet people do.

Gah, I hate those. At the very least I'm glad my workplace has an "other" option.

[TheDarkLord]

[QUOTE=TheDarkLord;21572630\
Why is the gender selection so limited for registering? Couldn't you have written in genders, or have a "none of the above" option at least? Most trans people I know wouldn't want to out themselves as M2F or F2M, so why have that as an option? Its kind of insulting that you would put that as a separate option than Male or Female. Idk it just frustrates me. There should definitely be more options.
\

It would be so much easier if they just asked for pronouns instead. I am so glad that this conversation got started. What thread would be best for me to post on to get this changed?

-Phi

[Razade]

Probably in the Site Issues board but don't hold your breath on them changing anything in any way.

[Prof. Maple]

Sorry again for my breaking of the subject. I think I am biromantic. I have a crush on one of my same sex friends. Should I come out? Who should I come out to?
Thanks for listening

[Coidzor]

Sorry again for my breaking of the subject. I think I am biromantic. I have a crush on one of my same sex friends. Should I come out? Who should I come out to?
Thanks for listening

Don't be sorry, it's good to not go in circles about something over and over again and instead talk about something new.

What you should do depends on a lot of factors that we really don't know going off of what little you've shared, though.

Generally speaking, though, if you know someone is definitely not interested in you and you're not clear on being both sexually and romantically interested in them (assuming asexuality isn't in the mix), then it's generally best not to make a romantic overture if they're categorically not interested in the kind of relationship that you would be offering to them by virtue of homosexuality/heterosexuality or allosexuality.







Edit: Since it took me, like, 5 tries last night to not sound like a robot in the sister thread, what is the proper way to do this?

[golentan]

Don't be sorry, it's good to not go in circles about something over and over again and instead talk about something new.

What you should do depends on a lot of factors that we really don't know going off of what little you've shared, though.

Generally speaking, though, if you know someone is definitely not interested in you and you're not clear on being both sexually and romantically interested in them (assuming asexuality isn't in the mix), then it's generally best not to make a romantic overture if they're categorically not interested in the kind of relationship that you would be offering to them by virtue of homosexuality/heterosexuality or allosexuality.

Edit: Since it took me, like, 5 tries last night to not sound like a robot in the sister thread, what is the proper way to do this?

One question I used to ask myself when I was aware of being biromantic but before I realized I was bisexual is "Even if you are sexually not attracted to someone, are you willing to have sex with them for the relationship for it to work?" A no usually requires additional thought, but a yes generally makes questions like yours easier, Coid.

Prof. Maple, to be honest, asking someone out is always a risk, massively more so if it's someone of the same sex. If you're interested enough to risk it, I'd say go for it. If you think he's likely to reciprocate, I'd say go for it. If you're not sure, it might be better to wait and maybe ask some leading questions to fell out your fella's feelings on the subject? It's hard to judge without more detail, as Coidzor says.

[Coidzor]

One question I used to ask myself when I was aware of being biromantic but before I realized I was bisexual is "Even if you are sexually not attracted to someone, are you willing to have sex with them for the relationship for it to work?" A no usually requires additional thought, but a yes generally makes questions like yours easier, Coid.

Prof. Maple, to be honest, asking someone out is always a risk, massively more so if it's someone of the same sex. If you're interested enough to risk it, I'd say go for it. If you think he's likely to reciprocate, I'd say go for it. If you're not sure, it might be better to wait and maybe ask some leading questions to fell out your fella's feelings on the subject? It's hard to judge without more detail, as Coidzor says.

Questions like mine? Which/what do you mean in particular?

I guess there's a couple of implied questions, but my sleep-deprived brain right now is trying to figure out how this is connected to my question of how to talk about it when someone says that trans women just don't have periods at all without going into explicit or overly technical detail or just being a clod.

[golentan]

Questions like mine? Which/what do you mean in particular?

I guess there's a couple of implied questions, but my sleep-deprived brain right now is trying to figure out how this is connected to my question of how to talk about it when someone says that trans women just don't have periods at all without going into explicit or overly technical detail or just being a clod.

...Questions about Prof. Maple's situation, and generally of how to pursue a relationship across sexual attraction lines?

[Ursus the Grim]

Yes, but you're one of the people who chooses not to display the gender. So am I - the options don't matter to me personally because I wouldn't use them. Yet when you look at the gender form in a thread (any thread, not just this one) a big chunk of them are filled in. Clearly some people care enough to provide an indicator.

FWIW, I checked off the gender field.

I do not feel the 'need' to tell people I'm cismale and identify as such. But nor do I feel the need to conceal it. If 'Male' were not an option in that field, I would simply not populate it. If I'm filling out my profile information and there is a question that applies to me, I answer it. If it doesn't, I don't.

I think I've been referred to with a gendered pronoun all of once on these forums. If I had been assumed female and called 'she/her' that one time, I can't imagine I would be particularly offended or upset by it.

If I were called 'she/her' a few dozen times and thought it was particularly offensive or egregious, I would mention it in my sig and assume I had stumbled upon a community of, uh, 'non-males' and that their assumptions were reasonable for the userbase.

[Razade]

To build on the above, I grow my hair out really long and have a rather high toned voice. I've been called ma'am in public by people not paying attention. I don't think I've ever been called sir by random phone call telemarketers once in my life. Never once was I upset by the misgendering, I never took it personally and I don't think I ever will. I don't even get upset when I get "oh, you sound very feminine/you sound like a woman." Wounds me not one bit.

[noparlpf]

That's a pretty typical response for cis people. And to be blunt, it isn't particularly relevant to the subject of trans people wanting their identities to be acknowledged. "I get misgendered occasionally (and then quickly apologised to) but my default experience is to be acknowledged and respected" is the opposite of "I get misgendered constantly and only rarely is my identity acknowledged and respected."

[KyooTrap]

Do y'all consider Polyamory to be part of the LGBTAI~ family? My dad asked me about it the other day and I personally think of it as a kind of separate identity, where for those I'd say I'm like bi, ace, etc. and then also Poly as a different axis. Kinda like how gender and sexual orientation are separate. I dunno, just wanted to see what y'all think.

[Ursus the Grim]

That's a pretty typical response for cis people. And to be blunt, it isn't particularly relevant to the subject of trans people wanting their identities to be acknowledged. "I get misgendered occasionally (and then quickly apologised to) but my default experience is to be acknowledged and respected" is the opposite of "I get misgendered constantly and only rarely is my identity acknowledged and respected."

That's a pretty typical response for trans people.

Though your elaboration clears things up, the premise posed was pretty explicitly "how would you as a cismale feel if you were misgendered or excluded". Your argument shouldn't be with our response but with the validity of the question posed.

I guess my gender isn't a big enough part of my identity to take offense.

Do y'all consider Polyamory to be part of the LGBTAI~ family? My dad asked me about it the other day and I personally think of it as a kind of separate identity, where for those I'd say I'm like bi, ace, etc. and then also Poly as a different axis. Kinda like how gender and sexual orientation are separate. I dunno, just wanted to see what y'all think.

I would. Frankly I consider any alternative/marginalized gender or sexuality in the Quiltbag. That's partially for my own sanity and partially because I feel like everyone who falls under that very broad umbrella would be best served by banding together against the common injustices they face.